Cam Or Flacco, Who Is The Bigger Problem Going Forward?

[ravensfan520]

Flacco is the problem... does anyone remember him saying before the season that he needs or deserves a contract ext... well to me he looks like he is struggling to keep a starting position let alone get a big ext. I have never been a fan of Flacco. I want a offense that brings the same intensity as our defense and I maybe the only one but I believe Taylor can lead this team and will be our qb of the future.

[redrum52]

As much as I've been down on Flacco lately the blame still falls on Cam first then Joe. My problem is that if Joe know what he sees on the field won't work with what's called why doesn't he grow <[i]up[/i]> and change the call. Haha.. been down on Flacco sounds [i]<bad>[/i] but I'm not changing the original post.

[gabefergy]

[quote name='ravensfan520' timestamp='1319740899' post='840982']
Flacco is the problem... does anyone remember him saying before the season that he needs or deserves a contract ext... well to me he looks like he is struggling to keep a starting position let alone get a big ext. I have never been a fan of Flacco. I want a offense that brings the same intensity as our defense and I maybe the only one but I believe Taylor can lead this team and will be our qb of the future.
[/quote]
Well you are certainly not the only one who thinks that way. There are a lot of fans who dont like Flacco, and I can understand the frustration, but to a lot of us fans who have been around longer see that Flacco has been able to do things for this team that no QB has ever done before. Is Flacco an Elite QB? No. Has he shown flashes of being Elite? Absolutely. Is he our long-term answer? I tend to think yes, but its too early to know for sure. I do know he is worlds ahead of Tyrod Taylor and I cant take anyone seriously who thinks Taylor will do a better job at QB for the Ravens.

What really "grinds my gears" is the constant attack on Flacco after every bad performance because for some reason our fanbase expects absolute perfection from the QB every single game. Well that just doesnt happen in the NFL (unless you are Aaron Rodgers, but even he had some stinkers last year). Players have bad games. Coaches have bad games. I have watched Flacco mature from a scared kid who handed the ball off 40 times a game and makes the occasional 3rd down throw to a guy who is confident and poised under pressure and capable of leading the Offense. He definitely still has room to grow, but it's not an overnight thing. He has gotten better throughout his career. He was one of the most consistent QBs in the league last season. This year has not gone as well, but he has had some incredible performances to go along with the stinkers. We still have 10 games to see how the season plays out. I for one think Joe will get better as he gains chemistry with his receivers, but its not just on him. Cam has to get better with his play-calling and in-game adjustments. The WRs have to get open more consistently, and Joe has to be better at handling pressure and finding the open guy.

I really just dont have patience for crybaby fans who feel like the world is ending after a bad game. Have some faith in your team for crying out loud.

[Suggs Package]

I'm not gonig to blame Cam like everyone else, because generally, play calling is somewhat overrated. If Cam's play calling is really as bad as we fans make it out to be, the players wouldn't listen to him, trust me. Plus, very few new plays have been invented in the last few decades.

The one thing about coaching that does have a big impact is preparation. Making sure the players know the plays and putting the right players in the right situations. Basically practicing and personnel decisions. Even still, you can only prepare the players, you can't control them like you do on Madden. Until NFL players become Avatars and coaches are controlling their bodies, I can't really put too much blame onto the coaching. There are good and bad coaches, but those guys won't have nearly the same impact on wins and losses than good or bad players.

Speaking of bad players, we have only two WRs that opposing defenses will game plan for, the other guys haven't proven that they can beat opposing defenses, therefore I'm going to place most of the blame on our WR depth. We aren't effective in 3+ WR sets. Because of that, we can't afford to trail in a game or run an effective two minute offense. Until Evans get healthy, we will have some issues against good defenses.

Another thing to note: Flacco is very inaccurate this year when it comes to passing to his RBs, completing around 55% of his passes. These are majority short passes, so this is worrisome, especially since we have good pass catchers in the backfield.

[In_ozzie_we_trust]

I would say both because CAM is not the one that has trouble reading defenses at times but Flacco cant help that CAM won't open up the playbook and let him audible I wonder if things would be different if Evans was healthy and on the field. One person can make a difference you would be surprised

[In_ozzie_we_trust]

[quote name='gabefergy' timestamp='1319751351' post='841237']
Well you are certainly not the only one who thinks that way. There are a lot of fans who dont like Flacco, and I can understand the frustration, but to a lot of us fans who have been around longer see that Flacco has been able to do things for this team that no QB has ever done before. Is Flacco an Elite QB? No. Has he shown flashes of being Elite? Absolutely. Is he our long-term answer? I tend to think yes, but its too early to know for sure. I do know he is worlds ahead of Tyrod Taylor and I cant take anyone seriously who thinks Taylor will do a better job at QB for the Ravens.

What really "grinds my gears" is the constant attack on Flacco after every bad performance because for some reason our fanbase expects absolute perfection from the QB every single game. Well that just doesnt happen in the NFL (unless you are Aaron Rodgers, but even he had some stinkers last year). Players have bad games. Coaches have bad games. I have watched Flacco mature from a scared kid who handed the ball off 40 times a game and makes the occasional 3rd down throw to a guy who is confident and poised under pressure and capable of leading the Offense. He definitely still has room to grow, but it's not an overnight thing. He has gotten better throughout his career. He was one of the most consistent QBs in the league last season. This year has not gone as well, but he has had some incredible performances to go along with the stinkers. We still have 10 games to see how the season plays out. I for one think Joe will get better as he gains chemistry with his receivers, but its not just on him. Cam has to get better with his play-calling and in-game adjustments. The WRs have to get open more consistently, and Joe has to be better at handling pressure and finding the open guy.

I really just dont have patience for crybaby fans who feel like the world is ending after a bad game. Have some faith in your team for crying out loud.
[/quote]

Well said

[ravensdfan]

[quote name='edreedfromtheu' timestamp='1319567255' post='837581']
The bigger problem?

[b]Cam can't really get any better if Flacco doesn't get better. (unless you just want the team to run the ball every single time?[/b]

[b]Flacco... he pretty much affects how the coordinator looks(and what plays he can call), the offensive line, the running backs, and the receivers.[/b]

I'd say Flacco is definitely the bigger problem going forward.

Oh, want to complicate things more? His contract is up, and if the Ravens don't want to pay him... many fans will be going insane. If they do extend him, they'll probably overpay with no guarantee it's going to get any better. I'm not sure I want to mortgage the future of an aging defense that will lose Ray Lewis, and Ed Reed(sooner rather than later if the offense is going to play like this)... for someone like Joe Flacco.
[/quote]

Flacco can't really get any better if Cam's play calling is horrid.

Cam....he pretty much affects how effective the offense as a unit looks, and especially Flacco.

The proof is in the pudding. Cam insisting on calling the plays during the hurry up offense. The entire world saw it. The entire world is laughing. If Joe is not comfortable calling his own plays, that falls to the OC and the HC. If you go back to Joe's rookie yr he called his own plays at times and looked quite comfortable doing so.

Once again, Joe was 2nd only to Tom Brady in QB rating from Week 3 forward last season, playing way better teams than the Titans and Jags. The O line play was sub par last season as well. We had no real deep threat. Do you really think that Flacco suddenly lost all his ability during the off season? Really? So what has changed? Oh yeah. They gave Cam ALL the control. 'Nuff said.

[Suggs Package]

[quote name='ravensdfan' timestamp='1319799080' post='841827']

Flacco can't really get any better if Cam's play calling is horrid.

Cam....he pretty much affects how effective the offense as a unit looks, and especially Flacco.

The proof is in the pudding. Cam insisting on calling the plays during the hurry up offense. The entire world saw it. The entire world is laughing. If Joe is not comfortable calling his own plays, that falls to the OC and the HC. If you go back to Joe's rookie yr he called his own plays at times and looked quite comfortable doing so.

Once again, Joe was 2nd only to Tom Brady in QB rating from Week 3 forward last season, playing way better teams than the Titans and Jags. The O line play was sub par last season as well. We had no real deep threat. Do you really think that Flacco suddenly lost all his ability during the off season? Really? So what has changed? Oh yeah. They gave Cam ALL the control. 'Nuff said.
[/quote]

I think you forgot about losing Mason, Heap, and TJ, three of our top five pass catchers in one off-season.

[ravensfan520]

[quote name='gabefergy' timestamp='1319751351' post='841237']

Well you are certainly not the only one who thinks that way. There are a lot of fans who dont like Flacco, and I can understand the frustration, but to a lot of us fans who have been around longer see that Flacco has been able to do things for this team that no QB has ever done before. Is Flacco an Elite QB? No. Has he shown flashes of being Elite? Absolutely. Is he our long-term answer? I tend to think yes, but its too early to know for sure. I do know he is worlds ahead of Tyrod Taylor and I cant take anyone seriously who thinks Taylor will do a better job at QB for the Ravens.

What really "grinds my gears" is the constant attack on Flacco after every bad performance because for some reason our fanbase expects absolute perfection from the QB every single game. Well that just doesnt happen in the NFL (unless you are Aaron Rodgers, but even he had some stinkers last year). Players have bad games. Coaches have bad games. I have watched Flacco mature from a scared kid who handed the ball off 40 times a game and makes the occasional 3rd down throw to a guy who is confident and poised under pressure and capable of leading the Offense. He definitely still has room to grow, but it's not an overnight thing. He has gotten better throughout his career. He was one of the most consistent QBs in the league last season. This year has not gone as well, but he has had some incredible performances to go along with the stinkers. We still have 10 games to see how the season plays out. I for one think Joe will get better as he gains chemistry with his receivers, but its not just on him. Cam has to get better with his play-calling and in-game adjustments. The WRs have to get open more consistently, and Joe has to be better at handling pressure and finding the open guy.

I really just dont have patience for crybaby fans who feel like the world is ending after a bad game. Have some faith in your team for crying out loud.
[/quote]

So you are going bash my beliefs in a qb that could bring excitement to this team... if he doesn't then what could go wrong... what we ride our defense into the playoffs again and have Flacco fold under pressure... so I am considered not a fan for wanting a better qb or least one who can make plays against good defenses... I have never been excited about Flacco since day one... when he was drafted I thought we were getting a Kyle Boller clone... and to be honest he... like I have said before he is but with better toys to play with. Boler had some good moments too and would always make that final play that killed us... sound familiar... so you are saying we should keep grinding out until he figures it out until its too late... and we draft another qb... when one could be on roster. But we will never know if we don't give him an opportunity. We can at least run some plays with him to give him a chance to show if he is progressing or not.

[Ravenslifer]

[quote name='ravensfan520' timestamp='1319853994' post='842773']
So you are going bash my beliefs in a qb that could bring excitement to this team... if he doesn't then [b]what could go wrong[/b]... what we ride our defense into the playoffs again and have Flacco fold under pressure... so I am considered not a fan for wanting a better qb or least one who can make plays against good defenses... I have never been excited about Flacco since day one... when he was drafted I thought we were getting a Kyle Boller clone... and to be honest he... like I have said before he is but with better toys to play with. Boler had some good moments too and would always make that final play that killed us... sound familiar... so you are saying we should keep grinding out until he figures it out until its too late... and we draft another qb... when one could be on roster. But we will never know if we don't give him an opportunity. We can at least run some plays with him to give him a chance to show if he is progressing or not.
[/quote]

What could go wrong? He could throw picks against every team he faces. He could not only lose against Pittsbugh and cost us the division, he could lose far enough to where we're out of the playoffs. The greatest defense in the world can't compete with terrible quarterback play and several costly turnovers (see Pittsburgh playoff game last year). Tyrod is going to struggle against better defenses in this league. All rookie quarterbacks do. And we still have 4 games left after Pitt against divisional opponents who happen to be ranked in the top 5 of NFL defenses right now. Remember, those teams aren't flukes either; just 2 years ago Cinci rode its defense to a division title and last year the Browns' defense confounded Tom Brady and the Patriots. Cam Newton, a much better quarterback than Tyrod is at this point, has turned the ball over 9 times already against bottom-10 defenses. He hasn't played a single top 10 defense all year, and he won't this season, but he's still turning the ball over. He's playing average at best. That's expected, because he's a rookie. Joe is a known quantity. He may not win all the games for us, but he rarely flat-out loses games for us. Tyrod might, and we're still in the hunt for the division. Nobody, and I mean nobody changes quarterbacks when they're 4-2 and could be on top of the division, which we could be depending on the outcome of the Pitt-NE game this weekend.

[ravensdfan]

[quote name='Suggs Package' timestamp='1319802774' post='841836']

I think you forgot about losing Mason, Heap, and TJ, three of our top five pass catchers in one off-season.
[/quote]

Yeah, that as well but all those bashing Flacco say that's "just an excuse" so I left it out.

[rubberslinky]

The fans are the problem with this situation. This reminds me of the situation with Billick when there was no offensive production, so we chased off a superbowl winning coach. Its the regular season people, it doesnt really count till the playoffs.

[ravensdfan]

[quote name='ravensfan520' timestamp='1319853994' post='842773']
So you are going bash my beliefs in a qb that could bring excitement to this team... if he doesn't then what could go wrong
[/quote]


You are kidding right? What could go wrong? We are 4-2 now. Virtually (if you take out all that bye stuff) tied for 1st in our division. What could go wrong? Dude, EVERYTHING.

[quote name='ravensfan520' timestamp='1319853994' post='842773']
... what we ride our defense into the playoffs again and have Flacco fold under pressure... so I am considered n[b]ot a fan for wanting a better qb or least one who can make plays against good defenses..[/b]
[/quote]

Based on what exactly? A dream you had? Because there certainly aren't any statistics or facts to back up that statement.

[quote name='ravensfan520' timestamp='1319853994' post='842773']
But we will never know if we don't give him an opportunity. We can at least run some plays with him to give him a chance to show if he is progressing or not.
[/quote]

Um, dude. We have coaches and trainers and such that see him every single day in practice. You don't think if he was over achieving Flacco in practice they wouldn't find a way to work him into the offense? When they were all hot for Troy Smith they did. They didn't replace Flacco but they made plays that got Troy Smith onto the field.

[quote name='ravensfan520' timestamp='1319853994' post='842773']
I have never been excited about Flacco since day one.
[/quote]

Yeah that is pretty obvious.

[gabefergy]

[quote name='ravensfan520' timestamp='1319853994' post='842773']


So you are going bash my beliefs in a qb that could bring excitement to this team... if he doesn't then what could go wrong... what we ride our defense into the playoffs again and have Flacco fold under pressure... so I am considered not a fan for wanting a better qb or least one who can make plays against good defenses... I have never been excited about Flacco since day one... when he was drafted I thought we were getting a Kyle Boller clone... and to be honest he... like I have said before he is but with better toys to play with. Boler had some good moments too and would always make that final play that killed us... sound familiar... so you are saying we should keep grinding out until he figures it out until its too late... and we draft another qb... when one could be on roster. But we will never know if we don't give him an opportunity. We can at least run some plays with him to give him a chance to show if he is progressing or not.
[/quote]
I'm sorry if it offends you, but playing a rookie who has never played a snap in the regular season instead of a proven QB who has won 40 games in 3+ seasons including playoffs is a laughable idea. I guarantee you any NFL player, coach, scout, analyst, talking head, etc would tell you the same thing. I'm not against Tyrod at all. I think he has a bright future, but he needs to gain much more experience before he plays any meaningful snaps. If we are blowing someone out, I have no problem with giving Tyrod some snaps in the 4th quarter, but that's the extent of what he should see barring injury to Joe.

[good_n_purple]

Joe is definitely having a tough time of it right now, but I don't see him as the ultimate problem. The way I see it he was making more progress when Hugh Jackson was the QB coach. I don't know for sure, but it looks like he and Cam have a strained relationship, and it looks like Cam is not holding up his end. Cam's offensive game planning seems to ignore the bad teams. Its like he has a standard playlist he pulls out for losing teams, and it takes him forever to admit he is wrong, analyze why its not working then react. I think its an ego thing...

Hey, Brees, and Rivers really blossomed when Cam left. I think we should give Joe the same opportunity!