Cam Or Flacco, Who Is The Bigger Problem Going Forward?

[berad]

[quote name='edreedfromtheu' timestamp='1319567255' post='837581']
The bigger problem?

Cam can't really get any better if Flacco doesn't get better. (unless you just want the team to run the ball every single time?

Flacco... he pretty much affects how the coordinator looks(and what plays he can call), the offensive line, the running backs, and the receivers.

I'd say Flacco is definitely the bigger problem going forward.

Oh, want to complicate things more? His contract is up, and if the Ravens don't want to pay him... many fans will be going insane. If they do extend him, they'll probably overpay with no guarantee it's going to get any better. I'm not sure I want to mortgage the future of an aging defense that will lose Ray Lewis, and Ed Reed(sooner rather than later if the offense is going to play like this)... [b]for someone like Joe Flacco.[/b]
[/quote]

Should've signed Troy Smith when we had the chance...

[Free Agent]

Yes, Flacco's interception cost us what couldve been a game winning drive, but our offense did not deserve the victory anyway. Flacco was not awful last night, as he completed more than half of his passes and threw for that late touchdown. Instead, I place the blame squarely on Cam Cameron. When we have young, fast WRs like Torrey Smith, LaQuan Williams, David Reed, and the veteran Boldin, one would think that these WRs would find a way to get open. But Cam's ridiculous play calling last night doomed us.

[Mikeylikesit1990]

between the 3 its definitely Cam. Last night was a train wreck but giving your star on offense the ball only 8 times is criminal. Lack of adjustments, vanilla play calling and the inability to allow Flacco to 'just play' was head-scratching.

Also i wasent a fan of Harbs not taking responsibility for that onside kick. just saying Cundiff knew what he had to do and saying he felt like they could get it back was wrong. i understand it could have gone either way but own up to your mistake and don't make it all your players fault. *Just something that bothered me

[big hits and ball hawks]

I have to go with Cam. I thought he was doing well this year, but this was terrible. If your WRs can't get separation, then call plays with more creative routes. Throw in some crossing routes and pick a CB to get someone open. Give Rice the ball more, we all know that. O-line issues? We were creative in how we blocked vs the Steelers, but we can't make some line adjustments to help Joe, Rice, and the receivers out. I don't get it.

As far as the "is Cam holding Joe back?" or "is Joe holding Cam back?" argument goes, we've seen Cam with other QBs and they've done better once Cam left them. We've yet to see Joe with another OC. I'm just saying...

[ball hawkin 20]

I'd say 80% Cam

20% Flacco

Flacco just being Flacco, and Cam calling one of the worst games i've ever seen in my life. Who knows what would happen to Flacco if we got a competent OC and Ben Grubbs back

[K-Dog]

NO ONE is innocent on Mondays performance.
I think an top tier OC would have made better decisions though.

[JO_75]

I figure this would be a good place for this, Cam Cameron Speaks......... when asked if the criticism Joe received after Monday Night was unfair, Cam said it's NOT unfair at all.

[quote]“That's part of our deal,” Cameron said. “Heat on me, heat on Joe. The coordinators, quarterbacks, we can all do better. It goes with the territory.”[/quote]

[url="http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/10/26/ravens-cam-cameron-joe-flacco-deserves-heat-and-so-do-i/"]http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/10/26/ravens-cam-cameron-joe-flacco-deserves-heat-and-so-do-i/[/url]

PFT should change the title to, "Flacco Deserves Heat and Cam Should Be Fired."

[Twistidfunk]

Seeing as there is a history of complaining about play calling I would say it is overwhelmingly Cameron.

We are stuck with him this season though. You really can't replace an o-coordinator mid season unless you know you are out of the playoffs. we are not there yet.

I do think Harbaugh will axe him at the end of the season though...barring a Superbowl appearance.

[AsianRice]

Pagano is the next Ravens HC..........

[Guest ArmyRaven52]

[quote name='AsianRice' timestamp='1319644482' post='839295']
Spagano is the next Ravens HC..........
[/quote]
Did Spagnuolo and Pagano have a love child?

Or was it Sparano and Pagano?

I am so confused!!!

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='AsianRice' timestamp='1319644482' post='839295']
Spagano is the next Ravens HC..........
[/quote]

Care to elaborate?

The bigger problem right now is definitely Cam. Execution has been a huge issue in the team's two letdowns this season but those issues aren't helped when it takes forever for plays to be called in and you have a game where your best offensive weapon, a RB, touches the ball less than 20 times.

[Guest ArmyRaven52]

[quote name='JO_75' timestamp='1319643616' post='839276']
I figure this would be a good place for this, Cam Cameron Speaks......... when asked if the criticism Joe received after Monday Night was unfair, Cam said it's NOT unfair at all.



[url="http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/10/26/ravens-cam-cameron-joe-flacco-deserves-heat-and-so-do-i/"]http://profootballta...at-and-so-do-i/[/url]

PFT should change the title to, "Flacco Deserves Heat and Cam Should Be Fired."
[/quote]

I think Harbs and Cam need to hit the door. I know there is no chance Harbs will, but dang, this offseason he put his neck out for Cam and this is where it ends up. "We" are going to fix the offense by this I guess him and Cam had pillow fights and watched the Gilmore Girls while the playbooks stayed at home. This is ridiculous.

As to the article Cam and Harbs throwing Flacco under the bus is pathetic coaching. Cam for his ridiculous game plan that needs to comment. For Harbs to sit there and say that though when he let that sorry game plan be implemented, and then not change it. Compunded with the knowledge he had last season and gave this guy a clipboard. he needs a foot in the you know what as well.

Flacco is irritating me too but when he gets to call the plays in the waning moments I will start to call for him to find the exit sign too, but until Cam is gone all I can do is feel bad for Flacco.

[Gtown Purple]

Lost in all of this is the fact that Ray Rice put the ball on the ground 3 times. In looking at the box score it looks like only one of them counted officially but I saw at least 3 times he lost the ball for whatever reason.

[AsianRice]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' timestamp='1319645535' post='839314']

Care to elaborate?

The bigger problem right now is definitely Cam. Execution has been a huge issue in the team's two letdowns this season but those issues aren't helped when it takes forever for plays to be called in and you have a game where your best offensive weapon, a RB, touches the ball less than 20 times.
[/quote]
Right now, Cam is definitely the problem, and Harbaugh is yet the problem because his winning record as a HC saves him. I mentioned Pagano as our next HC because if Harbs continues to support Cam like he usually does, I think Pagano can replace him as he has great relationship with players and good DC. I like good DC as a HC, personally.

Consistently taking team into playoffs due to the stellar defense will eventually show Harbs is incompetently managing team into the right direction. He needs to fix the problem by eliminating the cancer one, rather than believing it will get better.

My personal take is Pagano can relace Harbs if things are going out of hands....

[SideStep77]

I still think if there had not been a lockout, Cam would have been gone. Harbs has to support him right now cause he is all we've got. But if you look at the one article, he supported Suggs statement that Rice should have had more touches Monday. I don't think Harbs will openly come out and say "Cam you are just awful" (to the public at least). That doesn't look good and trying to find another OC in the middle of the season is not possible.

[Perfekt]

Harbs is not the problem. Take last years defense an compare it to this years. Now think about how much harder those players on defense play now that they have a guy they feel supports them an puts them in a position to win. Now wonder why Cam is still the OC when the offense nor anyone else respects what he brings to the table.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='AsianRice' timestamp='1319646460' post='839338']
Right now, Cam is definitely the problem, and Harbaugh is yet the problem because his winning record as a HC saves him. I mentioned Pagano as our next HC because if Harbs continues to support Cam like he usually does, I think Pagano can replace him as he has great relationship with players and good DC. I like good DC as a HC, personally.

Consistently taking team into playoffs due to the stellar defense will eventually show Harbs is incompetently managing team into the right direction. He needs to fix the problem by eliminating the cancer one, rather than believing it will get better.

My personal take is Pagano can relace Harbs if things are going out of hands....
[/quote]

His team likely wouldn't have a winning record if Harbaugh wasn't doing [i]something[/i] right.

Fact is, simply sticking by Cam for the rest of the season isn't going get John fired. The team would have to tank for that to happen. Even though it seemingly worked in '06, getting rid of an OC mid-season usually leads to more problems.

I doubt the offense goes another half this team where fail to gain a first down or entire game where they look as offensively inept as they did in Jacksonville. The post-season(assuming the team gets there) is where they'll be judged. And if they come up small like they have the previous three trips, Harbaugh would probably be jepordizing his own position if he went to bat for Cam then.

[Dfence4champs2052]

*still looking for the both option*

I'll say overall its Cam Cameron building these hurdles for us. Joe just keeps running into them.

[Dfence4champs2052]

There's nothing we or the team can really do about Cam. Do you think for a second we'd fire him in a lock out shortened season, no viable replacement, and we have a winning record still? It's not going to happen in-season folks.

[TreTheRaven]

Let me ask this. Let's say the Ravens do get rid of Cam and Joe continues to show inconsistency ... do you start to blame the new OC? Or for once do you start to blame Flacco?

I want them both gone though.

[AsianRice]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' timestamp='1319649829' post='839458']

His team likely wouldn't have a winning record if Harbaugh wasn't doing [i]something[/i] right.

Fact is, simply sticking by Cam for the rest of the season isn't going get John fired. The team would have to tank for that to happen. Even though it seemingly worked in '06, getting rid of an OC mid-season usually leads to more problems.

I doubt the offense goes another half this team where fail to gain a first down or entire game where they look as offensively inept as they did in Jacksonville. The post-season(assuming the team gets there) is where they'll be judged. And if they come up small like they have the previous three trips, Harbaugh would probably be jepordizing his own position if he went to bat for Cam then.
[/quote]
As bad as I want Cam to be fired, I know it will [i]likely[/i] cause more problems than the current ones if we fire Cam right now.

I think we can reduce Cam power as playcalling, and let Joe and Harbs participate in game planning and in game playcalling. As of now, I can't think of a better solution cuz we have no one who knows better offensively as Cam which is bad. Normally, we can let QB coach do the playcalling but thanks for let Cam control every bit of freedom QB has.

I have no preference of evidence but I think Harbs proposed to Ozzie and Steve that if they let Cam controls everything including QB coach and get him fast reciever, he can turn this offense around. Truthfully, you can't force big play every game on every down. Jaguars know that they challenged one on one pressure and played zone coverage the whole time. We shouldn't wait till the next game to adjust it; it should happen on the next possesion.

Like in the past I mention about depending solely on deep threat can really stall our offense in general; adjusting playcalling is the key to success in every game. For instance, no huddle offense can discrupt defense and increase QB's confidence, spread offense with 2 TEs to create mismatch, and feeding balls to Rice more even if he has fumbled once or twice. Another thing is to let Joe audibling playcallings so there is no delay in game when momentum shifts in our favor.

I think all of the list as above, Harbs can do it. Cam is too much of control freak...........

[big hits and ball hawks]

[quote name='TreTheRaven' timestamp='1319650619' post='839486']
Let me ask this. Let's say the Ravens do get rid of Cam and Joe continues to show inconsistency ... do you start to blame the new OC? Or for once do you start to blame Flacco?

I want them both gone though.
[/quote]

For me, It would depend on a few things. For example, has this new OC had previous success? Does he game plan well and make adjustments in game when things don't go well? Does he give Joe more freedom/involvement in game planning? How do the players react to him? Those are just a few questions that would need to be answered. This new OC would probably have to be here for 3-4 years for me to get a better opinion, because then you can really look at progress and compare him to Cam. If he proves to be a better OC than Cam and positively answer those questions, but we still struggle and are inconsistent then I'd start to put more blame on Flacco.

It's probably not what you want to hear, I don't know, because you'd like to see them both go, but I think it would take all that to start seriously wondering from a FO view if Joe really is our guy. It would take that for me too, but that's just my opinion.

[Guest ArmyRaven52]

[quote name='Gtown Purple' timestamp='1319646304' post='839333']
Lost in all of this is the fact that Ray Rice put the ball on the ground 3 times. In looking at the box score it looks like only one of them counted officially but I saw at least 3 times he lost the ball for whatever reason.
[/quote]


Horrible officiating was one of them definitely.

[ravenryan]

when ray ran to the edges he had some success.how long did it take cam to call those plays?????? A hell of along time .When we went with the hurry up we scored .How long did it take for cam to decide to go to the hurry up not until desperation mode even though nothing was working before why not try it early??????????????.And how long did it take CAM to call the plays into Joe during the hurry up offense??????? its CAM not JOE .If I was harbs I would demand the hurry up offense through the entire next game Cam and the offense sure needs the practice and I do mean live game action not on the practice field .Oh by the way where is joes wrist ban with the plays on it .I have never seen one.There is a rope around the neck of the offense and it has CAM'S name written all over it .

[edreedfromtheu]

[quote name='TreTheRaven' timestamp='1319650619' post='839486']
Let me ask this. Let's say the Ravens do get rid of Cam and Joe continues to show inconsistency ... do you start to blame the new OC? Or for once do you start to blame Flacco?

I want them both gone though.
[/quote]

They will blame the new OC. Anyone but Flacco, it's the rule.

Basically... it will always be the offensive coordinator's fault... until Flacco plays better.

[ball hawkin 20]

[quote name='edreedfromtheu' timestamp='1319656210' post='839644']
They will blame the new OC. Anyone but Flacco, it's the rule.

Basically... it will always be the offensive coordinator's fault... until Flacco plays better.
[/quote]

Dude...shut up. All you ever do is bash Flacco. We get it.

[Free Agent]

[quote name='edreedfromtheu' timestamp='1319656210' post='839644']
They will blame the new OC. Anyone but Flacco, it's the rule.

Basically... it will always be the offensive coordinator's fault... until Flacco plays better.
[/quote]


If we get a new offensive coordinator, Flacco WILL play better.

[Ravenslifer]

[quote name='edreedfromtheu' timestamp='1319656210' post='839644']
They will blame the new OC. Anyone but Flacco, it's the rule.

Basically... it will always be the offensive coordinator's fault... until Flacco plays better.
[/quote]

If Flacco still struggles, then we start looking for changes at the qb position ... Duh. You wanted to change quarterbacks after every game last year. Can you explain to me what your deal with Flacco is? You've been petitioning to get rid of him since you joined this board.

[RavensAired]

I was torn between Cam and the offensive line although Joe cool has that look that just sort of says there's not much going on between the ears here. I did vote for Cam as he is responsible for the play calling and making adjustments which he miserably failed to do against the Jaguars. I thought for once we had turned into a second half team only to be let down again! Really sick of Joe's fumbles though as they have been costly. Hope it doesn't happen again in Steeler town -

[ravensfan520]

Flacco is the problem... does anyone remember him saying before the season that he needs or deserves a contract ext... well to me he looks like he is struggling to keep a starting position let alone get a big ext. I have never been a fan of Flacco. I want a offense that brings the same intensity as our defense and I maybe the only one but I believe Taylor can lead this team and will be our qb of the future.