Let's Clear Something Up...

[The Raven]

I'm hearing a lot of people complain about starters or impact players playing on special teams. Sorry to disappoint you, because I know that you know more about football than our coaching staff, but that is just how football works.

Desean Jackson returns for the Eagles! These players are not so special that they don't have to play ST's. Yeah, they're starters. Does it increase chance of injury? I suppose it does, but that's football. Jameel McClain and Ellerbe are on kickoff, punt, punt return, and kick return[i]. But no that can't happen! they're a starter/impact player! [/i]If Ellerbe and McClain weren't out there who would be out there? I know most of the beef is with Webb and Jimmy, but let me tell you, playing special teams is part of their job as a football player for this organization. It has nothing to do with Harbs being a special teams guy. It's football. Plain and simple. Just how it works guys. Who would go out there if they weren't?

Special Teams is a very important aspect of the game. You might be one KRTD away from losing or winning a game. Field position is an incredible aspect of the game. Special teams can also give a team momentum. The fact of the matter is, you need the best special teams players you can get out there, within reason. If you don't, your ST's unit looks like Pittsburghs'. Do you really want that? This is just how football works guys.

[lowrider]

1. Desean Jackson returns punts for the Eagles. That's different. There are statistically more injuries on KR than PR. So I see the the problem people have with having Webb return kicks on an already depleted CB crew. The thing need to understand is that Carr could be back this week if not next week which is probably the reason the ravens might use Webb at KR. And Jimmy Smith is off crutches and could be back in a couple weeks. So soon enough an injury depleted position will be fine again.

2. McClain and Ellerbe don't return kicks. There is a little difference.

3. I think that there is no way that we can risk Jimmy Smith anymore in special teams. He is obviously the most talented cb on our squad, and is the only player on our squad that can matchup with the elite WR's. I don't care about anyone else we decide to use on special teams. But there is no way we can take that risk anymore.

Obviously we don't want a bad special team. But we can't sacrifice positions for special teams. I think we are going to be ok to play Webb at KR because Carr is coming back. I think that comes into the decision to make Webb the KR. As long as we don't play Jimmy Smith on special teams anymore, I don't care.

[berad]

You can only activate so many people on gameday. There's going to be some overlap between scrubs and starters on ST.

[grape drank]

Well you have to understand that the CB position is depleted. The CB position alone is one of the most susceptible positions to acquiring injuries. Never mind, letting them chase down returners/return kicks at guys who have a 50 yard running start. I don't see why a 4th string, or 3rd string RB couldn't return kicks.

[Corvus]

I agree completely, but I think the problem some people are having on here is using one of our only 2 healthy and semi-experienced corners at the moment as that return guy. I'd rather see Zbikowski as a returner (Pollard and Nakamura could easily step up IF he got hurt on s/t, Nakamura also returned punts at Cincinnati he could be an option there too) or one of our 3 rookie wideouts who ALL have experience to differing degrees as returners in college, Anthony Allen could be an option too. I am inclined to agree with most though that with our corners a banged up as they are, it would be wise to use Lardarius solely as a CB until Carr and/or Jimmy are healthy again. Plus Lardarius always worries me on punts anyway. I know he has had some success there and on an NFL level he probably is hands down our best "big play returner" that is currently healthy. But like I said, when your CB depth is already being as severely tested as ours currently is, it just makes sense to a lot of fans to use a guy who not only has better depth in his position group but also has not had a chance to show what they can do in a real NFL game (exluding Zibby who had some chances last year).

[D-Rey]

The fact of the matter is almost all rookies play speacial teams, this team is no exception. You can only activate so many guys, and you gotta use the guys that are going to be effective. You can not have players on special teams that you do not trust. Special teams are just as important as offense and defense IMO. People may not like it, but every team in the NFL puts rookies and starters on special teams.

[Guest ArmyRaven52]

[quote name='D-Rey' timestamp='1316876210' post='802465']
The fact of the matter is almost all rookies play speacial teams, this team is no exception. You can only activate so many guys, and you gotta use the guys that are going to be effective. You can not have players on special teams that you do not trust. [b]Special teams are just as important as offense and defense IMO[/b]. People may not like it, but every team in the NFL puts rookies and starters on special teams.
[/quote]

they dont score as many points as the O and special team only gets what 6 or 7 chances to stop points being put on the board. They are important but not nearly as much as the O or D.

[Guest ArmyRaven52]

[quote name='The Raven' timestamp='1316868999' post='802403']
I'm hearing a lot of people complain about starters or impact players playing on special teams. Sorry to disappoint you, because I know that you know more about football than our coaching staff, but that is just how football works.

Desean Jackson returns for the Eagles! These players are not so special that they don't have to play ST's. Yeah, they're starters. Does it increase chance of injury? I suppose it does, but that's football. [b]Jameel McClain and Ellerbe[/b] are on kickoff, punt, punt return, and kick return[i]. But no that can't happen! they're a starter/impact player! [/i]If Ellerbe and McClain weren't out there who would be out there? I know most of the beef is with Webb and Jimmy, but let me tell you, playing special teams is part of their job as a football player for this organization. It has nothing to do with Harbs being a special teams guy. It's football. Plain and simple. Just how it works guys. Who would go out there if they weren't?

Special Teams is a very important aspect of the game. You might be one KRTD away from losing or winning a game. Field position is an incredible aspect of the game. Special teams can also give a team momentum. The fact of the matter is, you need the best special teams players you can get out there, within reason. If you don't, your ST's unit looks like Pittsburghs'. Do you really want that? This is just how football works guys.
[/quote]

I really would not consider either of them to be impact players.

If I had a list of people that would not be on ST

Jimmy
Cary
Ray
Ed
RR
Flacco (shouldnt have to be said but someone would say it)
Haloti
Suggs
Q
Evans


It pretty much covers the basis and lets you still have a very formidable ST without losing cornerstones.

An if no one is truly above it put Fox out there.

[JamesRules]

[quote name='berad' timestamp='1316872123' post='802427']
You can only activate so many people on gameday. There's going to be some overlap between scrubs and starters on ST.
[/quote]
Like Matt Dodge.

Edit- I didn't know he was released.

[Guest ArmyRaven52]

[quote name='JamesRules' timestamp='1316879190' post='802498']
Like Matt Dodge.

Edit- I didn't know he was released.
[/quote]
Probably because he kicked to desean Jackson on likely the final play or two of the game instead of kicking it out. It is kinda punter 101 if you have one of the most dangerous guys in the league dont kick to him.

[PWNEDbyDEANO]

I think most of the beef people (including myself) have about Webb being put on KR is that he is at this moment one of our best CB's and is seeing a lot of defensive snaps. Two of our other four corners are already coming back off of injuries, Foxy's being serious, and are not at 100% as it is. We [i]can't [/i]afford to have Webb injured. Then you also have to take into account that we have three receivers who are barely being used, even though they will see more time this week, that have a good track record in college of returning kicks. I don't want any of them to get injured obviously but an injury to one of them would have much less serious implications to the team than it would if Webb got hurt.

[JamesRules]

[quote name='ArmyRaven52' timestamp='1316879523' post='802503']
Probably because he kicked to desean Jackson on likely the final play or two of the game instead of kicking it out. It is kinda punter 101 if you have one of the most dangerous guys in the league dont kick to him.
[/quote]
Uh no. It's because he didn't even listen to the coach and just did what he felt like. There's alot of gamblers on special teams, that's why there's so many huge returns.

About Desean, I wouldn't be intimidated by him. He's not Devin Hester or that guy on the Cleveland Browns.

[Guest ArmyRaven52]

[quote name='JamesRules' timestamp='1316881300' post='802514']
Uh no. It's because he didn't even listen to the coach and just did what he felt like. There's alot of gamblers on special teams, that's why there's so many huge returns.

About Desean, I wouldn't be intimidated by him. He's not Devin Hester or that guy on the Cleveland Browns.
[/quote]
um yeah.That guy is Josh Cribbs. And you dont have to be intimidated by him.... If you like sitting outside the playoffs which is what he did to the giants.

[The Raven]

[quote name='lowrider' timestamp='1316871255' post='802417']
1. Desean Jackson returns punts for the Eagles. That's different. There are statistically more injuries on KR than PR. So I see the the problem people have with having Webb return kicks on an already depleted CB crew. The thing need to understand is that Carr could be back this week if not next week which is probably the reason the ravens might use Webb at KR. And Jimmy Smith is off crutches and could be back in a couple weeks. So soon enough an injury depleted position will be fine again.

2. McClain and Ellerbe don't return kicks. There is a little difference.

3. I think that there is no way that we can risk Jimmy Smith anymore in special teams. He is obviously the most talented cb on our squad, and is the only player on our squad that can matchup with the elite WR's. I don't care about anyone else we decide to use on special teams. But there is no way we can take that risk anymore.

Obviously we don't want a bad special team. But we can't sacrifice positions for special teams. I think we are going to be ok to play Webb at KR because Carr is coming back. I think that comes into the decision to make Webb the KR. As long as we don't play Jimmy Smith on special teams anymore, I don't care.
[/quote]

1. Still the risk of injury is STILL there, and I don't hear Eagles fans complaning about it.

2. What, so wedge-busters and blockers never get hurt on special teams? Having played special teams, especially wedgebuster and front line on kick return, I can tell you injuries are quite common for what they do. Both of my 2 concussions were on special teams. They are some of the most physical positions in football. Have you played wedge or blocked on KR? I have, and it hurts.

3. I completely understand what you're saying here, but football is football. If Harbs needs him on ST, he's gotta play ST. Now that we have depth issues at CB, I agree that I don't want Webb at returner, mainly though, because we have other players more than capable at returning kicks. Jimmy probably won't be playing ST's anymore, mainly because he's going to be out number 1 CBwhen he's back. My main point is, it's football. It is a man's game. The guys gotta man up and play where and when needed. Just my two cents though.

[JamesRules]

[quote name='ArmyRaven52' timestamp='1316881738' post='802519']
um yeah.That guy is Josh Cribbs. And you dont have to be intimidated by him.... If you like sitting outside the playoffs which is what he did to the giants.
[/quote]
Yeah it was all Desean's punt returning that's why they lost the chance of making the playoffs not because Eli fumbled the ball in their first meeting and then they blew it against the forth quarter the second meeting. The Eagles and Desean are just that overrated.

[Guest ArmyRaven52]

[quote name='The Raven' timestamp='1316882438' post='802525']

1. Still the risk of injury is STILL there, and I don't hear Eagles fans complaning about it.

2. What, so wedge-busters and blockers never get hurt on special teams? Having played special teams, especially wedgebuster and front line on kick return, I can tell you injuries are quite common for what they do. Both of my 2 concussions were on special teams. They are some of the most physical positions in football. Have you played wedge or blocked on KR? I have, and it hurts.

3. I completely understand what you're saying here, but football is football. If Harbs needs him on ST, he's gotta play ST. Now that we have depth issues at CB, I agree that I don't want Webb at returner, mainly though, because we have other players more than capable at returning kicks. Jimmy probably won't be playing ST's anymore, mainly because he's going to be out number 1 CBwhen he's back. My main point is, it's football. It is a man's game. [b]The guys gotta man up and play where and when needed[/b]. Just my two cents though.
[/quote]


I agree but that is why you hope your head coach knows what he is doing. Not saying Harbs does not (although there are a few things I am starting to question) was Jimmy being out there going to really make that much difference when you have 10 other guys out there. I mean sure anything can happen, but the risk did not outweigh the reward. All the other rookies fine but not when you have a guy who is supposed to come in on number 1's, when you have injuries to the position already, and you he is the most physically gifted guy you have in the secondary.

[Guest ArmyRaven52]

[quote name='JamesRules' timestamp='1316882821' post='802532']
Yeah it was all Desean's punt returning fault that's why they lost the chance of making the playoffs not because Eli fumbled the ball in their first meaning and then they blew it against the forth quarter the second meeting. The Eagles and Desean are just that overrated.
[/quote]

no it was not the only reason but it got the points on the board needed to win and it was the final play of the game and a play needed to be made, that is the definition of clutch. They say one game at a time, well tehn it should be analyzed that way if you are in playoff contention because what matters is what you do this game not what you did last game. Point is they had a shot desean Jackson made a great play and then they did not. It could have all been avoided if Matt Dodge would have used his head and kicked it high to allow coverage to get there, kick it out of bounds, etc. Instead he wanted to show off how strong his leg is and it cost him a job as it should have.

This year they are overrated, last year not so much. everybody knew they had an explosive offense, and a crappy D and now with all the signings they are over hyped, last year I think they took their fair amount of criticism.

[The Raven]

[quote name='ArmyRaven52' timestamp='1316882824' post='802533']


I agree but that is why you hope your head coach knows what he is doing. Not saying Harbs does not (although there are a few things I am starting to question) was Jimmy being out there going to really make that much difference when you have 10 other guys out there. I mean sure anything can happen, [b]but the risk did not outweigh the reward.[/b] All the other rookies fine but not when you have a guy who is supposed to come in on number 1's, when you have injuries to the position already, and you he is the most physically gifted guy you have in the secondary.
[/quote]

Actually one guy can make a difference. All it takes is one opening in a lane, or a loss of contain and that guy just got 6. It's a common misconception that ST's is entirely a team thing, where it's 11 hats to the ball. Each player has landmark to contain (like wedge, goalpost, hash, etc) and if they overrun the coverage, or miss their landmark, you're gonna be running the other way.

I think I can agree though that the risk didn't outweigh the reward. I still think if we had Jimmy we'd be 2-0.

[JamesRules]

[quote name='ArmyRaven52' timestamp='1316883110' post='802536']

no it was not the only reason but it got the points on the board needed to win and it was the final play of the game and a play needed to be made, that is the definition of clutch. They say one game at a time, well tehn it should be analyzed that way if you are in playoff contention because what matters is what you do this game not what you did last game. Point is they had a shot desean Jackson made a great play and then they did not. It could have all been avoided if Matt Dodge would have used his head and kicked it high to allow coverage to get there, kick it out of bounds, etc. Instead he wanted to show off how strong his leg is and it cost him a job as it should have.
[/quote]
One kick return against a worn out special teams and Desean fumbles the ball and just gets good blocks. If that's considered clutch, that's not a big deal. I still don't see how he's the "most dangerous guy in the league".

[Guest ArmyRaven52]

[quote name='The Raven' timestamp='1316883181' post='802537']

Actually one guy can make a difference. All it takes is one opening in a lane, or a loss of contain and that guy just got 6. It's a common misconception that ST's is entirely a team thing, where it's 11 hats to the ball. Each player has landmark to contain (like wedge, goalpost, hash, etc) and if they overrun the coverage, or miss their landmark, you're gonna be running the other way.

I think I can agree though that the risk didn't outweigh the reward. I still think if we had Jimmy we'd be 2-0.
[/quote]

I agree about the coverage one guy can blow it. What I was talking about though(it was my fault for not being clear) Is that your ST assignment is not that hard and it does not take a physical freak to do. You generally have your "lane" or specific responsibilities and they dont vary much if at all for most. And if these guys had to be that athletic than we would be talking about the defensive guys supplementing the ST instead of the other way around.

Jimmy is a great athlete and smart kid, but those are 2 things that you dont need all that much on ST. No sayin they are dumb they just dont have complicated reads, assignments and so on. Really you just maintain gap responsibility and knock the crap out of somebody.

[Guest ArmyRaven52]

[quote name='JamesRules' timestamp='1316883662' post='802540']
One kick return against a worn out special teams and Desean fumbles the ball and just gets good blocks. If that's considered clutch, that's not a big deal. I still don't see how he's the "most dangerous guy in the league".
[/quote]

It was mroe about the timing and honestly he did get some good blocks but his flat out speed helped too and that is all him. As far as the most dangerous guy in the league, I dont think I said that (if I did I must ahve been temporarily unavailable upstairs) If we are talking about ST it has to go to hester. On Offense there are way to many to try and assign that label.

[JamesRules]

[quote name='ArmyRaven52' timestamp='1316883870' post='802542']

It was mroe about the timing and honestly he did get some good blocks but his flat out speed helped too and that is all him. As far as the most dangerous guy in the league, I dont think I said that (if I did I must ahve been temporarily unavailable upstairs) If we are talking about ST it has to go to hester. On Offense there are way to many to try and assign that label.
[/quote]
Yeah my bad I thought you said he is. I just really don't see how Desean's one of the best. He sprints so far back that he ends out losing yards.

[The Raven]

[quote name='ArmyRaven52' timestamp='1316883666' post='802541']

I agree about the coverage one guy can blow it. What I was talking about though(it was my fault for not being clear) Is that your ST assignment is not that hard and it does not take a physical freak to do. You generally have your "lane" or specific responsibilities and they dont vary much if at all for most. And if these guys had to be that athletic than we would be talking about the defensive guys supplementing the ST instead of the other way around.

Jimmy is a great athlete and smart kid, but those are 2 things that you dont need all that much on ST. No sayin they are dumb they just dont have complicated reads, assignments and so on. Really you just maintain gap responsibility and knock the crap out of somebody.
[/quote]

Exactly! gotta give you props man, I appreciate it when people on here know what they're talkin about when it comes to football. Kudos.

[lowrider]

[quote name='The Raven' timestamp='1316882438' post='802525']

1. Still the risk of injury is STILL there, and I don't hear Eagles fans complaning about it.

2. What, so wedge-busters and blockers never get hurt on special teams? Having played special teams, especially wedgebuster and front line on kick return, I can tell you injuries are quite common for what they do. Both of my 2 concussions were on special teams. They are some of the most physical positions in football. Have you played wedge or blocked on KR? I have, and it hurts.

3. I completely understand what you're saying here, but football is football. If Harbs needs him on ST, he's gotta play ST. Now that we have depth issues at CB, I agree that I don't want Webb at returner, mainly though, because we have other players more than capable at returning kicks. Jimmy probably won't be playing ST's anymore, mainly because he's going to be out number 1 CBwhen he's back. My main point is, it's football. It is a man's game. The guys gotta man up and play where and when needed. Just my two cents though.
[/quote]
1. Also helps that the Eagles have a lot more depth at the wr position than the ravens do at the cb position. And if Desean ever gets in a bad situation he can just fair catch it. Way different risk than KR
2. But we also have a lot more depth at linebacker than at cb. Especially when the main question about this defense has been its secondary. My opinion of McClain and Ellerbe playing special teams would be way different if we started having injuries there like we have had at the corner position.
3. I think that we should start Webb at KR also only because Carr should be back in a week or two and Smith will be back in a couple of weeks. But the last thing we need is getting thinner at a position we are already thin at. Especially a position that is quickly becoming the most important on the defensive side of the fooball.

[Free Agent]

The issue with Lardarius Webb returning kicks this weekend is our cornerback corps is already struggling with the injuries to Jimmy Smith and Chris Carr, and Foxworth not yet at 100%. With Webb and Cary Williams as our only 100% healthy corners, why take a chance and have Webb return kicks. LaQuan Williams can return kicks, and even punts, and there is no risk involved.

[The Raven]

[quote name='lowrider' timestamp='1316886039' post='802555']
1. Also helps that the Eagles have a lot more depth at the wr position than the ravens do at the cb position. And if Desean ever gets in a bad situation he can just fair catch it. Way different risk than KR
2. But we also have a lot more depth at linebacker than at cb. Especially when the main question about this defense has been its secondary. My opinion of McClain and Ellerbe playing special teams would be way different if we started having injuries there like we have had at the corner position.
3. I think that we should start Webb at KR also only because Carr should be back in a week or two and Smith will be back in a couple of weeks. But the last thing we need is getting thinner at a position we are already thin at. Especially a position that is quickly becoming the most important on the defensive side of the fooball.
[/quote]

1. True

2. Not really. McClain is a starter. We have 5 ILB's. Ray, McClain, Ellerbe/ Ayanbadejo, oh wait, we only have 4 now. 4 ILB's in a 3-4 defense is not "a lot of depth" That's a single backup for each spot. It's even less when one of the starting backers has to play ST. We do not have a lot of depth at ILB. It's great depth, but not a lot.

3. The problem with that idea is it's not two weeks from now. Now is now, and Carr is not back now. I think Laquan should be given more time at KR. He was the definition of explosive.

[Alexir]

[quote name='The Raven' timestamp='1316868999' post='802403']
I'm hearing a lot of people complain about starters or impact players playing on special teams. Sorry to disappoint you, because I know that you know more about football than our coaching staff, but that is just how football works.

Desean Jackson returns for the Eagles! These players are not so special that they don't have to play ST's. Yeah, they're starters. Does it increase chance of injury? I suppose it does, but that's football. Jameel McClain and Ellerbe are on kickoff, punt, punt return, and kick return[i]. But no that can't happen! they're a starter/impact player! [/i]If Ellerbe and McClain weren't out there who would be out there? I know most of the beef is with Webb and Jimmy, but let me tell you, playing special teams is part of their job as a football player for this organization. It has nothing to do with Harbs being a special teams guy. It's football. Plain and simple. Just how it works guys. Who would go out there if they weren't?

Special Teams is a very important aspect of the game. You might be one KRTD away from losing or winning a game. Field position is an incredible aspect of the game. Special teams can also give a team momentum. The fact of the matter is, you need the best special teams players you can get out there, within reason. If you don't, your ST's unit looks like Pittsburghs'. Do you really want that? This is just how football works guys.
[/quote]

Starting your best Cornerback on KR when you have Jimmy, Foxworth and Carr no 100% is just a stupid gamble when you can put LaQuan Williams back there.

It's just a depth issue.

Tyrod Taylor is someone fast and evasive but we wouldn't dream of putting him back there! Just because he is the next/only man up of Joe goes down.

[Guest ArmyRaven52]

[quote name='The Raven' timestamp='1316884611' post='802546']

Exactly! gotta give you props man, I appreciate it when people on here know what they're talkin about when it comes to football. Kudos.
[/quote]

I have been known to have a few good ideas from time to time, not nearly often enough though.

[CapoRocky]

LaQuan Williams didn't really impress me in the preseason, but he is the best option this week. Webb will need his legs to defend the deep pass.

[Bltravens]

[quote name='Alexir' timestamp='1316889091' post='802568']

Starting your best Cornerback on KR when you have Jimmy, Foxworth and Carr no 100% is just a stupid gamble when you can put LaQuan Williams back there.

It's just a depth issue.

Tyrod Taylor is someone fast and evasive but we wouldn't dream of putting him back there! Just because he is the next/only man up of Joe goes down.
[/quote]
This. Our coverage in our secondary already sucks against a mediocre passing attack. Now we're going to put the only corner on our active roster who can actually tackle and blitz in a position to get the crap blasted out of him when we have LaQuan who made the team because of return ability?