Defense Going Forward

[Alexir]

This isn't a knock on JJ but we can't have him at LOLB anymore. We need a consistent pass rush from that side and I think we can get that from the duo of Kindle/Kruger.

What I suggest is kicking JJ inside in a Bart Scott-esque role where he plays middle line backer and takes on the guard and fullback. He has the size and strength to do this.

I obviously don't know how long it would take him to adjust (maybe work on it in the bye?) but I just feel like we need to get younger and quicker on the outside. McClain hasn't done anything amazing playing next to Ray so I don't mind JJ starting over him.

For the first couple downs,

Williams-Reed-[b]Pollard[/b]-Webb

Suggs-Ray-[b]JJ-Kruger[/b]
Ngata-Cody-Redding

On Passing downs (depending on # of receivers),

Williams-Reed-[b]Pollard[/b]-Webb-Foxworth
Suggs-Ray-[b]Kindle[/b]
Ngata-Cody-[b]McPhee[/b]

or

Williams-Reed-[b]Pollard[/b]-Webb
Suggs-Ray-McClain-[b]Kindle[/b]
Ngata-Cody-[b]McPhee[/b]

I know it's not as simple as plugging someone into some position and it's easier to do on paper (or a thread) but the idea isn't really that ridiculous. We gain a pass rush and we don't lose a solid tackler.

Just some food for thought.

Do I see it happening? No, but I think JJ has shown how versatile he can be at playing out of position (guy was a defensive tackle in college).

Just an idea.

(Also, yeah I don't have Zibby starting in my mock defenses because I think it's time to give Pollard a solid look to see how "Bad" he is in coverage because Zibby doesn't look to great either). We need to get these former 2nd Round picks on the field for defense because we didn't draft them that high for their Special Teams play and Harbaugh needs to realize that not everything is about Special Teams.

[austrianravensfan]

That's an intresting Idea, JJ isn't great at rushing the passer, but has great inteligence and plays hard every play, would love to see how he dose inside.
But I don't think our coaching staff is able think that much outside the box, also I don't think Kindle is ready to start by now.

[Alexir]

[quote name='austrianravensfan' timestamp='1316434278' post='797895']
That's an intresting Idea, JJ isn't great at rushing the passer, but has great inteligence and plays hard every play, would love to see how he dose inside.
[b]But I don't think our coaching staff is able think that much outside the box, also I don't think Kindle is ready to start by now.[/b]
[/quote]

Agree about the thinking outside the box.

Kindle wouldn't be starting, Kruger would be. Kindle would come out on 3rd downs strictly to rush the passer.

[Slim]

I agree JJ isn't a good pass rusher but he sure is one of the smartest player on our defense, so I don't think it would be a problem for him to switch to ILB ! It would help Ray for sure.

[Twistidfunk]

I have no problem with it. I think Kindle needs to get on the field along with Ellerbe. Ellerbe seems to make many more plays than McClain.

I never was that big on Zibby so if it were me, I'd have Polalrd out there. His coverage couldn't have been any worse than anyone else playing yesterday, ouch!

that game was awful to watch. Everyone just looked clueless. I love our D but man, we got major issues that have been exploited for all the NFL to see. Hasselbeck (who I thought sucked) just wrote the book on beating us.

Next week I expect more of the same from the Rams

[PuRock]

JJ is a smart player no doubt. But we need to do something to jump start the pass rush as well when it is flat. I think the gameplan hindered our pass rush a bit yesterday. We were so focused on stopping CJ that our tendencies were being exploited.
But we should have made some second half adjustments to see if we couldn't jump start it, that probably means JJ sees the field less.

[PuRock]

We also need to get physical at the line with their receivers. Just jab them once, throw their timing off. If you re watch the game you'll see that the Titans jabbed the receivers often in the game which threw off our entire passing game.

We can't be lining these CBs 10 yards off the line and letting guys like Britt get clean releases.

[Suggs Package]

Maybe this is an option after Ray retires and we resign JJ, but in the near future, this would be a horrible idea because we would have the biggest, slowest ILB duo in the NFL. Even though a 3-4 can cover your athletic deficiencies at ILB, JJ doesn't quite have the agility to cover the middle of the field.

A solution to the pass rush is the play more 4-3 alignments with JJ staying at ROLB, which we do at times. This way, some of those other guys can get on the field. JJ has the skillset of a great 4-3 ROLB, but has a 3-4 ROLB body and plays in a hybrid scheme.

[scrock]

We need to get Carr and Jimmy Smith back...our secondary was really exposed yesterday

[austrianravensfan]

Another Solution to rush the QB better, would be the easy if can't rush wit with Linemen and Linebackers bring the heat from the secondary, webb looks like a great nickle blizer to me.

[nk02442]

I love this. never have like Mclain and think JJ would be a great ILB with Ray. NO one would be running up the middle with those 2.

[berad]

I've never been JJ's biggest fan, he is never going to be an elite backer but he's solid. That said, I can't fathom benching him two weeks after he demolished Hines Ward. He's the best we have right now.

I still want to see Kindle on the field, though. Doss, too, but that's a different topic.

[Bltravens]

[quote name='PuRock' timestamp='1316443153' post='798008']
We also need to get physical at the line with their receivers. Just jab them once, throw their timing off. If you re watch the game you'll see that the Titans jabbed the receivers often in the game which threw off our entire passing game.

We can't be lining these CBs 10 yards off the line and letting guys like Britt get clean releases.
[/quote]
Ive been screaming about this for almost 3 years. We hardly ever press a WR. I mean our guys arent exactly adept press coverage corners (another reason Im still pissed about JSmith being on kick coverage, use every CB not named Smith for that garbage pile crap). Cary can do it a little bit, but the guy we needed got hurt on a nothing play he shouldnt have been in. Our corner situation is the exact same it was last year right now. A guy proving he can be a starter who has never even been a nickel, a nickel guy on the outside who struggles in coverage, whatever you want to call Foxworth, and a hurt Carr.

[scrock]

I just checked the Stats and JJ has a whopping 2 tackles..the stats are so lopsided on our defense, the secondary guys all lead the team

Webb - 20 tackles
Ed Reed - 14
Cary Williams - 13
Zibby - 12

...Ray Lewis has 15...but point is our secondary is making way too many tackles which is not good...you never want the leading tackler on your team to be a CB

Our pass rush isnt good enough, Suggs is the only one who can get consistent pressure but they can double team him and there is no one else...Kindle hasnt been given a chance so we dont know where he's at with his development..Pernell McPhee is nice but he's young, he did good things last week but not existent this week..JJ cant get it done, he never was a good pass rusher

I think once our secondary gets healthy we'll be better but thats probably after the bye...the good thing is we get the Rams and then the Jets (Sanchez) at home..so we can go 3-1 no problem IMO

but we have to show up and play better than we did yesterday

[Mount-Cody]

Great idea man, JJ is an exceptional run stopper, and playing aside Ray would be great, plus I love the idea of bringing in some of our younger talent opposite Suggs.

[gabefergy]

[quote name='scrock' timestamp='1316452929' post='798180']
I just checked the Stats and JJ has a whopping 2 tackles..the stats are so lopsided on our defense, the secondary guys all lead the team

Webb - 20 tackles
Ed Reed - 14
Cary Williams - 13
Zibby - 12

...Ray Lewis has 15...but point is our secondary is making way too many tackles which is not good...you never want the leading tackler on your team to be a CB

Our pass rush isnt good enough, Suggs is the only one who can get consistent pressure but they can double team him and there is no one else...Kindle hasnt been given a chance so we dont know where he's at with his development..Pernell McPhee is nice but he's young, he did good things last week but not existent this week..JJ cant get it done, he never was a good pass rusher

I think once our secondary gets healthy we'll be better but thats probably after the bye...the good thing is we get the Rams and then the Jets (Sanchez) at home..so we can go 3-1 no problem IMO

but we have to show up and play better than we did yesterday
[/quote]

I want to point out that the first game Pitt was in catch up mode the entire game, so the secondary is going to have the majority of tackles. While Tennessee wasnt catching up, they still spent the majority of their time passing. We effectively shut down their running game, so once again the most of the tackles are gonna come from the secondary. To me this isnt a concern.

Back to the OP's point: IMO we need to take both JJ and Ray off the field on 3rd downs or obvious passing situations. JJ cant get pressure and is maybe an average cover guy. Ray can sit in a zone or blitz, but thats about it. Unfortunately this really hurts our defense and opposing teams know it. How many times do we see Ray blitzing up the middle and getting nowhere?

I think Ellerbe and McClain should be our backers in passing situations with McPhee, Ngata, Kruger/Kindle, and Suggs applying pressure. Ellerbe is a capable pass-rusher as well coming on the blitz.

As for Pollard/Zibby, I have made my opinion pretty clear on who I think is the better coverage guy. I see Zibby in tight coverage very frequently. He can cover well in man to man situations. Maybe Pollard can too, but I havent really seen anything special from him yet. If he starts I honestly dont think it will make much of a difference, the real problem is our CB play.

[Gordo52]

I really hope Jimmy Smith can come back soon and go off

[Alexir]

[quote name='PuRock' timestamp='1316443153' post='798008']
We also need to get physical at the line with their receivers. Just jab them once, throw their timing off. If you re watch the game you'll see that the Titans jabbed the receivers often in the game which threw off our entire passing game.

We can't be lining these CBs 10 yards off the line and letting guys like Britt get clean releases.
[/quote]

Everything you said is why I don't like Foxworth and Carr. You will see Cary and Webb play close to the line but even they need to jam more. It's frustrating because you are so right, that extra second of taking the receiver out of their route gives Suggs and Company an extra second to get to Hassellbeck

[PuRock]

[quote name='Alexir' timestamp='1316464071' post='798415']

Everything you said is why I don't like Foxworth and Carr. You will see Cary and Webb play close to the line but even they need to jam more. It's frustrating because you are so right, that extra second of taking the receiver out of their route gives Suggs and Company an extra second to get to Hassellbeck
[/quote]

Yep. If you watch some of the best passing defenses in the league. Jets, Philly. Their guys (doesn't matter who, but clearly Revis and Aso included) always Jab with with one hand, something small and simple (not being overly physical). I've seen Aso talk about this being the most important aspect of his game. The ability to just throw the receiver off a split second. Slow down the motor a nano.

Hell, we see the outcome in our offense. Everytime we go against phyiscal receivers at the line we seem to struggle and we talk about how "nobody was open".

[The Raven]

[quote name='Alexir' timestamp='1316433504' post='797883']
This isn't a knock on JJ but we can't have him at LOLB anymore. We need a consistent pass rush from that side and I think we can get that from the duo of Kindle/Kruger.

What I suggest is kicking JJ inside in a Bart Scott-esque role where he plays middle line backer and takes on the guard and fullback. He has the size and strength to do this.

I obviously don't know how long it would take him to adjust (maybe work on it in the bye?) but I just feel like we need to get younger and quicker on the outside. [b]McClain hasn't done anything amazing playing next to Ray so I don't mind JJ starting over him[/b].

For the first couple downs,

Williams-Reed-[b]Pollard[/b]-Webb

Suggs-Ray-[b]JJ-Kruger[/b]
Ngata-Cody-Redding

On Passing downs (depending on # of receivers),

Williams-Reed-[b]Pollard[/b]-Webb-Foxworth
Suggs-Ray-[b]Kindle[/b]
Ngata-Cody-[b]McPhee[/b]

or

Williams-Reed-[b]Pollard[/b]-Webb
Suggs-Ray-McClain-[b]Kindle[/b]
Ngata-Cody-[b]McPhee[/b]

I know it's not as simple as plugging someone into some position and it's easier to do on paper (or a thread) but the idea isn't really that ridiculous. We gain a pass rush and we don't lose a solid tackler.

Just some food for thought.

Do I see it happening? No, but I think JJ has shown how versatile he can be at playing out of position (guy was a defensive tackle in college).

Just an idea.

(Also, yeah I don't have Zibby starting in my mock defenses because I think it's time to give Pollard a solid look to see how "Bad" he is in coverage because Zibby doesn't look to great either). We need to get these former 2nd Round picks on the field for defense because we didn't draft them that high for their Special Teams play and Harbaugh needs to realize that not everything is about Special Teams.
[/quote]


I do disagree entirely with [i]all[/i] changes made. Man, if you think JJ's slow now, you don't even wanna see him on the inside. People say, "Oh, he'll do great on the inside taking on blocks for Ray" Yeah, but he'll look terrbile pursuing on outside runs and even worse in coverage. He's not nearly fast, or agile enough to play ILB.

Pollard is slow. Sure he can hit, but he can't do much else. I'd like for you guys, since you seem so convinced Zibby is bad, to actually show me a play, let alone many plays, where he got beat bad. I honestly can not remember many times he got beat.

I love McPhee. He's my favorite out of this rookie class, but he's not ready to start just yet, and Redding has proved me very wrong. Redding has been a beast. Flat out. McPhee needs to become better against the run.

Agreed on Kruger though. Start him!

Prove me wrong, and I'll agree.

[PurpleReign92]

Kindle and Kruger need experience on the front line of this Raven trench. I don't know how much experimenting Chuck Pagano wants to do with this front. JJ likes to drop back in coverage, putting him on the inside may not be to bad of idea. I know that Kruger and Kindle would love to get there sack count up. JJ wouldn't mind showing off some vet leadership right next to General the team captain Ray. Lewis.

[Guest ArmyRaven52]

[quote name='The Raven' timestamp='1316471003' post='798560']


I do disagree entirely with [i]all[/i] changes made. Man, if you think JJ's slow now, you don't even wanna see him on the inside. People say, "Oh, he'll do great on the inside taking on blocks for Ray" Yeah, but he'll look terrbile pursuing on outside runs and even worse in coverage. He's not nearly fast, or agile enough to play ILB.

[b]Pollard is slow[/b]. Sure he can hit, but he can't do much else. I'd like for you guys, since you seem so convinced Zibby is bad, to actually show me a play, let alone many plays, where he got beat bad. I honestly can not remember many times he got beat.

I love McPhee. He's my favorite out of this rookie class, but he's not ready to start just yet, and Redding has proved me very wrong. Redding has been a beast. Flat out. McPhee needs to become better against the run.

Agreed on Kruger though. Start him!

Prove me wrong, and I'll agree.
[/quote]

Its funny you say that because Zibby ran a 4.52, Pollard ran a 4.59, and landry ran a 4.72. So unless .07 seconds is the disparity for slow you are off base there.

[Alexir]

[quote name='The Raven' timestamp='1316471003' post='798560']


I do disagree entirely with [i]all[/i] changes made. Man, if you think JJ's slow now, you don't even wanna see him on the inside. People say, "Oh, he'll do great on the inside taking on blocks for Ray" Yeah, but he'll look terrbile pursuing on outside runs and even worse in coverage. He's not nearly fast, or agile enough to play ILB.

Pollard is slow. Sure he can hit, but he can't do much else. I'd like for you guys, since you seem so convinced Zibby is bad, to actually show me a play, let alone many plays, where he got beat bad. I honestly can not remember many times he got beat.

I love McPhee. He's my favorite out of this rookie class, but he's not ready to start just yet, and Redding has proved me very wrong. Redding has been a beast. Flat out. McPhee needs to become better against the run.

Agreed on Kruger though. Start him!

Prove me wrong, and I'll agree.
[/quote]

i'm not the head coach so I can't prove you wrong. Obviously on passing downs he wouldn't be out there so he would be limited to 2 downs and if the team was behind he probably wouldn't touch the field.

[Guest ArmyRaven52]

[quote name='Bltravens' timestamp='1316447435' post='798102']
[b]Ive been screaming about this for almost 3 years.[/b] We hardly ever press a WR. I mean our guys arent exactly adept press coverage corners (another reason Im still pissed about JSmith being on kick coverage, use every CB not named Smith for that garbage pile crap). Cary can do it a little bit, but the guy we needed got hurt on a nothing play he shouldnt have been in. Our corner situation is the exact same it was last year right now. A guy proving he can be a starter who has never even been a nickel, a nickel guy on the outside who struggles in coverage, whatever you want to call Foxworth, and a hurt Carr.
[/quote]


I have been there with you, I watched that same piece where people said that he has the best jab in the NFL, and then Aso talked about how much something so little can impact the game. I wonder though it seems they are trying to get big and physical at corner, They just activated gorrer who is another big guy. Not saying he is going to be great but it looks like that is what they are trying to work towards, and move away from the Fox style of football.

[ray of light]

Well my solution for the defence going forward is a 4-3 not 3-4. I know the 3-4 is trendy now, but I think we would be a monster again with a 4-3 alignment. Here me out. Remember when we had two planet sized men in the middle. What happened then? SB and the best defence in league history. Ngata and Cody could definitely fill those roles. This will free up Ray and the others to roam the field. Suggs, Kindle, Kruger, JJ and McPhee could rotate on DE. Kick McClain and Ellerbe outside. Think this would help our pass rush and also take the heat of our secondary. I agree your CB should never be the leading tackler on your team. I realize that this is not a switch in the middle of the season kind of thing and I know it's not as simple as maybe somebody switching positions, but I think we could be a historic defence again. Well that's my two cents.

[gabefergy]

[quote name='ray of light' timestamp='1316475712' post='798633']
Well my solution for the defence going forward is a 4-3 not 3-4. I know the 3-4 is trendy now, but I think we would be a monster again with a 4-3 alignment. Here me out. Remember when we had two planet sized men in the middle. What happened then? SB and the best defence in league history. Ngata and Cody could definitely fill those roles. This will free up Ray and the others to roam the field. Suggs, Kindle, Kruger, JJ and McPhee could rotate on DE. Kick McClain and Ellerbe outside. Think this would help our pass rush and also take the heat of our secondary. I agree your CB should never be the leading tackler on your team. I realize that this is not a switch in the middle of the season kind of thing and I know it's not as simple as maybe somebody switching positions, but I think we could be a historic defence again. Well that's my two cents.
[/quote]
I've actually thought about this a lot, but I keep coming back to the fact that our LBers don't have the speed to play a 4-3. We definitely have the Lineman to pull it off, but not sure about the LBers.

[The Raven]

[quote name='ArmyRaven52' timestamp='1316472660' post='798584']

Its funny you say that because Zibby ran a 4.52, Pollard ran a 4.59, and landry ran a 4.72. So unless .07 seconds is the disparity for slow you are off base there.
[/quote]

[b]Track[/b] speed matters not on the [b]football [/b]field. [b]Football[/b] speed matters when you're playing[b] football[/b]. This is not [b]track and field[/b]. This is [b]football[/b]. In addition to that, Safeties don't run 40 yards in a straight line.

[The Raven]

[quote name='ray of light' timestamp='1316475712' post='798633']
Well my solution for the defence going forward is a 4-3 not 3-4. I know the 3-4 is trendy now, but I think we would be a monster again with a 4-3 alignment. Here me out. Remember when we had two planet sized men in the middle. What happened then? SB and the best defence in league history. Ngata and Cody could definitely fill those roles. This will free up Ray and the others to roam the field. Suggs, Kindle, Kruger, JJ and McPhee could rotate on DE. Kick McClain and Ellerbe outside. Think this would help our pass rush and also take the heat of our secondary. I agree your CB should never be the leading tackler on your team. I realize that this is not a switch in the middle of the season kind of thing and I know it's not as simple as maybe somebody switching positions, but I think we could be a historic defence again. Well that's my two cents.
[/quote]

It sounds like a good idea now, but Cody is not fast/agile enough to be a 4-3 DT. You need an interior rush from 4-3 DT's

[Alexir]

[quote name='ray of light' timestamp='1316475712' post='798633']
Well my solution for the defence going forward is a 4-3 not 3-4. I know the 3-4 is trendy now, but I think we would be a monster again with a 4-3 alignment. Here me out. Remember when we had two planet sized men in the middle. What happened then? SB and the best defence in league history. Ngata and Cody could definitely fill those roles. This will free up Ray and the others to roam the field. Suggs, Kindle, Kruger, JJ and McPhee could rotate on DE. Kick McClain and Ellerbe outside. Think this would help our pass rush and also take the heat of our secondary. I agree your CB should never be the leading tackler on your team. I realize that this is not a switch in the middle of the season kind of thing and I know it's not as simple as maybe somebody switching positions, but I think we could be a historic defence again. Well that's my two cents.
[/quote]

Thats something they can install next year I am talking about THIS season.

[Guest ArmyRaven52]

[quote name='The Raven' timestamp='1316482525' post='798798']

[b]Track[/b] speed matters not on the [b]football [/b]field. [b]Football[/b] speed matters when you're playing[b] football[/b]. This is not [b]track and field[/b]. This is [b]football[/b]. In addition to that, Safeties don't run 40 yards in a straight line.
[/quote]

And yet they measure it at the combine, how odd is that. Of course they dont run in a straight line we all knew that. So ummm. football speed what do we measure that with, a ruler, a yard stick, or as so many people on here who cant support an argument on speed say, "I look at the tape" except that is the most useless reference ever for speed. Chris Johnson ran pretty fast in the 40, who knew he was fast, so did vick, so did AP, so did Patrick Peterson, so did stanford route, so did calvin johnson, did deion??? Only people who "watch the tape" are surprised these guys are fast. Everybody else who pays attention to the combine already knew that, and for all of those guys I would say it translated but who knows, maybe it is really McKinnie who is fast since since ya know the combine does not matter. [img]http://content.boards.baltimoreravens.com//public/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif[/img]