If Cam Cameron Can Not Get It Done, ...

[Guest ArmyRaven52]

[quote name='Blex64' timestamp='1315635465' post='782541']
The ignorance in this thread is pretty depressing.

The success of the offense is not solely dependent on him, I bet half the forum is clamoring for him to be gone by this time Monday though.
[/quote]

Well take a prozac and enlighten us.

And the fact that you have to state that the success of the offense not hinging upon him, does one of two things. It really illustrates how ignorant you think we are which would support the previous statement you made, or two speaks to your ignorance not thinking we know that lol.

I do not think you are ignorant, that being said I think of him in terms of a player.Not in the literal sense obviously but in terms of expectations.

When you have a player who you bring in to put you over the edge and just consistently under performs, you would not renew his contract would you ? It is similar to Mark Clayton because we thought he was going to get our offense there, and his job seriously hinged on other people, but either way some things he could change and didn't which ended up a 1st round pick being traded for a 6th, speaks to how you have to produce.

[Guest ArmyRaven52]

[quote name='i82much' timestamp='1315666560' post='782612']
It's really tough to look at the product on the field and blame the coordinator. Biggest issue last year, imho, was losing Gaither. Yeah maybe a couple of play calls could have been different but the biggest issue was a patched-up O line. Flacco has continued to develop under Cam and we have won a lot of football games. Best approach is to wait until at least mid-season and give the line time to work together before we blow up and replace the coordinator. Tomorrow's game is huge but it doesn't tell us a whole lot about how this offense will look in three months.
[/quote]

It is ?? then how do you explain our D being great under 3 DC and then we get mattison and we are severely lacking to say the least.

[1/28/01]

[quote name='ArmyRaven52' timestamp='1315667546' post='782620']


It is ?? then how do you explain our D being great under 3 DC and then we get mattison and we are severely lacking to say the least.
[/quote]
Im just going to take a stab and say the departure of CMac, Rolle, Scott and Thomas and some stars aging such as Gregg (no longer here of couse), Ray and Ed were major contributors in the "severely lacking" defense you speak of.

[Guest ArmyRaven52]

[quote name='1/28/01' timestamp='1315667896' post='782622']
Im just going to take a stab and say the departure of CMac, Rolle, Scott and Thomas and some stars aging such as Gregg (no longer here of couse), Ray and Ed were major contributors in the "severely lacking" defense you speak of.
[/quote]

True we lost personnel, but that is the nature of the game and some of those werent there for the full duration of those 3 coaches, and Cmac and rolle were often injured and scott followed rex for a reason.

And honestly we found ways to cover defeciency's when they werent in. And people defend cam but I really dont know a lot of people that defend mattison.

[Guest ArmyRaven52]

[quote name='1/28/01' timestamp='1315667896' post='782622']
Im just going to take a stab and say the departure of CMac, Rolle, Scott and Thomas and some stars aging such as Gregg (no longer here of couse), Ray and Ed were major contributors in the "severely lacking" defense you speak of.
[/quote]
Oh and for clarification I meant lacking in the coaching department, I woudl never say our D was especially in the last oh 15 years.

[Blex64]

[quote name='ArmyRaven52' timestamp='1315667383' post='782619']

Well take a prozac and enlighten us.

And the fact that you have to state that the success of the offense not hinging upon him, does one of two things. It really illustrates how ignorant you think we are which would support the previous statement you made, or two speaks to your ignorance not thinking we know that lol.

I do not think you are ignorant, that being said I think of him in terms of a player.Not in the literal sense obviously but in terms of expectations.

When you have a player who you bring in to put you over the edge and just consistently under performs, you would not renew his contract would you ? It is similar to Mark Clayton because we thought he was going to get our offense there, and his job seriously hinged on other people, but either way some things he could change and didn't which ended up a 1st round pick being traded for a 6th, speaks to how you have to produce.
[/quote]


Except he's not a player. Pretty much every team gets offensive coordinator complaints from their fans. We've had two good seasons under him, and some of his calls last season weren't quite as bad as they were made out to be. Except for his fascination with end-arounds, his playcalling was the technically correct answer to getting around the cover 2. You run the ball, or you throw it deep. That's the whole point of the cover 2, to take away the middle of the field. However, when your offensive line is crap and your receivers are all 30something posession guys, you're going to have issues doing either of those things consistently. Now do I think we should have adjusted our playcalling to fit our personnel? In a perfect world, definitely. Should we have used Stallworth in particular better as a receiver? Absolutely. Cam's not perfect, I'm not going to go so far as to say that he's even all that good. But he's what we have, and it's not like you can just go out and draft a new OC. Good ones are few and far between, and I absolutely would have supported us getting McDaniels or Saunders if we'd had an offseason. But we didn't, so we have Cam, and I think firing him during the season would be ludicrous. So let's just calm down and give him another chance. I expect we'll see a dozen more of these threads regardless of what happens tomorrow, but I guess there's nothing to be done about that.

[T3hRaven]

[quote name='Jamal' timestamp='1315608595' post='782349']
I really wanted McDaniels or even Saunders last year. Too late for either of those guys, but whats the point sticking with him if we stink up on offense again? I'd let him go just for the sake of moving on from watching his boring and mediocre offenses.
[/quote]

I'm hoping the Texans underachieve again and Kubiak gets fired. I love the Texans offense, and hiring him would definitely help out that side of the ball.

I've been saying Cam should be fired since last season. If the offense is terrible again this year, I don't see how he could hold onto his job.

[berad]

[quote name='darklight1216' timestamp='1315629603' post='782529']
It was Berad.
[/quote]

[quote name='Alexir' timestamp='1315626039' post='782503']
Who the heck said no?
[/quote]

To clarify, I said yes and no... because I could

But, yeah, this is Cam's last audition. The moves we made in the off-season, personnel and coaching-wise, were to give him more control of the offense. There's no more QB coach between him and Flacco, it's an open line of communication. The offense will either do really well and Cam will redeem himself to the fans or we'll underachieve again and he'll be out of a job... and if we fall somewhere between underachieving and success, he'll probably lose his job anyways.

[Alexir]

[quote name='berad' timestamp='1315676104' post='782738']



To clarify, I said yes and no... because I could

But, yeah, this is Cam's last audition. The moves we made in the off-season, personnel and coaching-wise, were to give him more control of the offense. There's no more QB coach between him and Flacco, it's an open line of communication. The offense will either do really well and Cam will redeem himself to the fans or we'll underachieve again and he'll be out of a job... and if we fall somewhere between underachieving and success, he'll probably lose his job anyways.
[/quote]

Ok. Understood.

But,

WHO ELSE SAID NO?!?!?! 1 more vote unexplained and I demand answers!

[berad]

[quote name='Alexir' timestamp='1315676310' post='782743']

Ok. Understood.

But,

WHO ELSE SAID NO?!?!?! 1 more vote unexplained and I demand answers!
[/quote]

Blex64 is the dissenter

Can't you see who voted yes or no? I just click the poll answers

[MKdave]

[quote name='berad' timestamp='1315676104' post='782738']

To clarify, I said yes and no... because I could

[/quote]
Totally understand that temptation.

[Alexir]

[quote name='berad' timestamp='1315676479' post='782748']

Blex64 is the dissenter [img]http://content.boards.baltimoreravens.com//public/style_emoticons/default/laugh.png[/img]

Can't you see who voted yes or no? I just click the poll answers
[/quote]
Well I learned something today.

[baltravens]

[quote name='Alexir' timestamp='1315677514' post='782758']
Well I learned something today.
[/quote]
Berad is a moderator, I guess he can vote 'yay' and 'nay'.

[Guest ArmyRaven52]

[quote name='Blex64' timestamp='1315671707' post='782675']


Except he's not a player. Pretty much every team gets offensive coordinator complaints from their fans. We've had two good seasons under him, and some of his calls last season weren't quite as bad as they were made out to be. Except for his fascination with end-arounds, his playcalling was the technically correct answer to getting around the cover 2. You run the ball, or you throw it deep. That's the whole point of the cover 2, to take away the middle of the field. However, when your offensive line is crap and your receivers are all 30something posession guys, you're going to have issues doing either of those things consistently. Now do I think we should have adjusted our playcalling to fit our personnel? In a perfect world, definitely. Should we have used Stallworth in particular better as a receiver? Absolutely. Cam's not perfect, I'm not going to go so far as to say that he's even all that good. But he's what we have, and it's not like you can just go out and draft a new OC. Good ones are few and far between, and I absolutely would have supported us getting McDaniels or Saunders if we'd had an offseason. But we didn't, so we have Cam, and I think firing him during the season would be ludicrous. So let's just calm down and give him another chance. I expect we'll see a dozen more of these threads regardless of what happens tomorrow, but I guess there's nothing to be done about that.
[/quote]

Yes I get the fact that he is not a player but it was to show that players are often times in a similar situation where there numbers or success is not soley in their hand and take heat for it just like Cam does.

I also said that we should not fire him in the middle of the season and I even said we should not have fired him in the preseason, but I really don't recall our offense being "good" 2 years but I guess that is also subjective. I have also said that I am starting anew with cam's fate or what it should be imo. It is a new season and I am pulling for him.

As to the whole age thing, honestly there were teams with worse O-lines and WR's last year and still managed to do decent, so that is no excuse. they ran dink and dunk offenses with the occasional bomb and had some success.

And it is not like we had to get saunders we had him we should have just canned cam and then gave saunders the job.

[berad]

[quote name='baltravens' timestamp='1315680830' post='782819']
Berad is a moderator, I guess he can vote 'yay' and 'nay'.
[/quote]

I thought that was the way you set up the poll. I saw two check-boxes, not an either/or option, so I took advantage lol

[Blex64]

[quote name='Alexir' timestamp='1315676310' post='782743']

Ok. Understood.

But,

WHO ELSE SAID NO?!?!?! 1 more vote unexplained and I demand answers!
[/quote]

I voted no. I think making blanket statements is stupid, and so is supporting them. He's partially responsible but you're blaming offensive problems that don't exist yet on someone whose not been given a chance to turn things around yet, and I think that's ridiculous.

[quote name='ArmyRaven52' timestamp='1315683344' post='782854']

Yes I get the fact that he is not a player but it was to show that players are often times in a similar situation where there numbers or success is not soley in their hand and take heat for it just like Cam does.

I also said that we should not fire him in the middle of the season and I even said we should not have fired him in the preseason, but I really don't recall our offense being "good" 2 years but I guess that is also subjective. I have also said that I am starting anew with cam's fate or what it should be imo. It is a new season and I am pulling for him.

As to the whole age thing, honestly there were teams with worse O-lines and WR's last year and still managed to do decent, so that is no excuse. they ran dink and dunk offenses with the occasional bomb and had some success.

And it is not like we had to get saunders we had him we should have just canned cam and then gave saunders the job.
[/quote]

Yes, Cam should be subject to scrutiny as well. I'm not saying he shouldn't be. However, there are a lot of players in this league, a lot more then there are coaches. Its far easier to replace a player of just about any position then it is a coach. I'm not opposed to him being replaced, I just don't see any better options at the moment. McDaniels was easily my first choice, but he's not available, so who do we turn to?

I agree that the lockout may have saved his job, but I'm more comfortable going into the season with Cam and an offensive system in place then a new OC with a new system, even if Cam's questionable. Our offense progressed for 2 years under Cam and only regressed last season. Maybe this was simply the addition of pieces like Rice and Flacco, but I think Cam as at least partially responsible. I just feel like we give our players credit for all the success, and blame Cam for all the issues.

There were no teams with an out of position falling-apart Oline and 3 old possession WR's running deep routes who did nearly as good as us. The Bears are the closest I can think of, and the Bears suck. They rode a weak (or in GB's case injured) division to the NFC North championship and got to play the 7-9 Seahawks in the playoffs. We had the personnel to attack the middle of the field, but we didn't have the line to protect the deep pass for our slow receivers or to open up the run. If midway through the season we run up the middle 15 times in the 3rd quarter, I'll start showing some concern but until then I'm going to trust that the team knows what its doing.

Cam's had success before, let him have a chance to prove he's still got it now that we've got a superb team for him to work with. I honestly think this is the best team we've ever assembled, so I'm just going to lay back and enjoy the ride.

[Guest ArmyRaven52]

[quote name='Blex64' timestamp='1315690090' post='783017']

I voted no. I think making blanket statements is stupid, and so is supporting them. He's partially responsible but you're blaming offensive problems that don't exist yet on someone whose not been given a chance to turn things around yet, and I think that's ridiculous.



Yes, Cam should be subject to scrutiny as well. I'm not saying he shouldn't be. However, there are a lot of players in this league, a lot more then there are coaches. Its far easier to replace a player of just about any position then it is a coach. I'm not opposed to him being replaced, I just don't see any better options at the moment. McDaniels was easily my first choice, but he's not available, so who do we turn to?

I agree that the lockout may have saved his job, but I'm more comfortable going into the season with Cam and an offensive system in place then a new OC with a new system, even if Cam's questionable. Our offense progressed for 2 years under Cam and only regressed last season. Maybe this was simply the addition of pieces like Rice and Flacco, but I think Cam as at least partially responsible. I just feel like we give our players credit for all the success, and blame Cam for all the issues.

There were no teams with an out of position falling-apart Oline and 3 old possession WR's running deep routes who did nearly as good as us. The Bears are the closest I can think of, and the Bears suck. They rode a weak (or in GB's case injured) division to the NFC North championship and got to play the 7-9 Seahawks in the playoffs. We had the personnel to attack the middle of the field, but we didn't have the line to protect the deep pass for our slow receivers or to open up the run. If midway through the season we run up the middle 15 times in the 3rd quarter, I'll start showing some concern but until then I'm going to trust that the team knows what its doing.

Cam's had success before, let him have a chance to prove he's still got it now that we've got a superb team for him to work with. I honestly think this is the best team we've ever assembled, so I'm just going to lay back and enjoy the ride.
[/quote]

I will not take anything from Cam in regards to he has helped but I think it was a drop in the bucket compared to us actually focusing on offense.

As to the other teams with aging receiver's and crappy o lines, due to injuries I think there were a few that count but the best is the chargers.

The chargers: McNeill was not their for a while, so they did not have their starting left tackle and on top of that a few other o lineman went out and started to become thin. As far as receiver's for the vast majority year they had chris chambers, seyi ajiritoutou, and malcolm floyd, then floyd got hurt and buster douglas started in his absence after the lateral shift.

And you hit the nail on the head 3 possession WR's running deep routes. what the heck????

And yes I think this year is the most COMPLETE team we have ever assembled, but that being said that could be the final nail in the coffin for cam. If he cannot produce ith this offense he is going to be in a world of hurt, with no one wanting to bail him out.

[Blex64]

[quote name='ArmyRaven52' timestamp='1315690818' post='783043']

I will not take anything from Cam in regards to he has helped but I think it was a drop in the bucket compared to us actually focusing on offense.

As to the other teams with aging receiver's and crappy o lines, due to injuries I think there were a few that count but the best is the chargers.

The chargers: McNeill was not their for a while, so they did not have their starting left tackle and on top of that a few other o lineman went out and started to become thin. As far as receiver's for the vast majority year they had chris chambers, seyi ajiritoutou, and malcolm floyd, then floyd got hurt and buster douglas started in his absence after the lateral shift.[/quote]

The Chargers were awful last year and missed the playoffs. They didn't have success.

[quote]And you hit the nail on the head 3 possession WR's running deep routes. what the heck????[/quote]

What other option did they have? You want to stick them in the middle of the field with 5+ guys covering 2 or 3 receivers? If we'd had the protection it would have worked out fine, they'd be forced to send more then one Safety deep and we'd be able to attack the entire field. There was a reason we had them doing what they were doing, and this is why I'm saying its not entirely Cam's fault we didn't have success. Yeah, we should have used Stallworth a LOT more then we did, and that IS on Cam.

[quote]And yes I think this year is the most COMPLETE team we have ever assembled, but that being said that could be the final nail in the coffin for cam. If he cannot produce ith this offense he is going to be in a world of hurt, with no one wanting to bail him out.
[/quote]

If he's responsible I'll be all for it. I'm just not going to throw someone under the bus before they've done anything wrong.

[Guest ArmyRaven52]

[quote name='Blex64' timestamp='1315691247' post='783054']

The Chargers were awful last year and missed the playoffs. They didn't have success.



What other option did they have? You want to stick them in the middle of the field with 5+ guys covering 2 or 3 receivers? If we'd had the protection it would have worked out fine, they'd be forced to send more then one Safety deep and we'd be able to attack the entire field. There was a reason we had them doing what they were doing, and this is why I'm saying its not entirely Cam's fault we didn't have success. Yeah, we should have used Stallworth a LOT more then we did, and that IS on Cam.



If he's responsible I'll be all for it. I'm just not going to throw someone under the bus before they've done anything wrong.
[/quote]
Agreed on every thing but the receiver part. We did have donte stallworth i think he may have been a little more useful then just showing us he can run an end around, that is at least one option I think he had he just didn't much to the bewilderment of the entire fan base.

[edreedfromtheu]

What kind of question is this?

There is a LOT of ways the Ravens could underachieve. You can't blame them all on the offensive coordinator. You have to wait and see how the season goes, and if the Ravens underachieve then you have to determine WHY they underachieved.

But yes, if the offense is stale... predictable... and just unproductive, Cam Cameron will be gone. That would buy Flacco at least one more year.

[Blex64]

[quote name='ArmyRaven52' timestamp='1315691369' post='783058']
Agreed on every thing but the receiver part. We did have donte stallworth i think he may have been a little more useful then just showing us he can run an end around, that is at least one option I think he had he just didn't much to the bewilderment of the entire fan base.
[/quote]

Which I'm agreeing with you on. I don't think Cam is spectacular, or even all that good, I just don't see why people are crucifying him before he's called a single play.

The playcalling was stagnant and predictable lastseason, and I called the 3rd quarter of the Steelers game with a pretty high degree of accuracy. Things certainly have to improve, maybe I'm just different in thinking that they will.

[Guest ArmyRaven52]

[quote name='Blex64' timestamp='1315691878' post='783072']

Which I'm agreeing with you on. I don't think Cam is spectacular, or even all that good, I just don't see why people are crucifying him before he's called a single play.

The playcalling was stagnant and predictable lastseason, and I called the 3rd quarter of the Steelers game with a pretty high degree of accuracy. Things certainly have to improve, [b]maybe I'm just different in thinking that they will.[/b]
[/quote]

love the optimism, I am making a conscience effort to get there and I think I have almost centered my chi lol.

[Guest ArmyRaven52]

[quote name='edreedfromtheu' timestamp='1315691661' post='783065']
What kind of question is this?

There is a LOT of ways the Ravens could underachieve. You can't blame them all on the offensive coordinator. You have to wait and see how the season goes, and if the Ravens underachieve then you have to determine WHY they underachieved.

But yes, if the offense is stale... predictable... and just unproductive, Cam Cameron will be gone. That would buy Flacco at least one more year.
[/quote]

So you are saying Cam is awesome and Flacco is Cam's bane. Ya know I see people always discrediting you and your opinions and I have tried to take you seriously like I do everybody in here, but seriously ??? You can tell me you have been joking the whole time right?

[Guest RBates]

I disagree i like Cam i think he will be fine. Flacco has to work on his mechanics, and the offense will be fine. (ex: learn to hide the ball on fake dives, not starring down receivers, and most importantly getting rattled when we play the Steelers). Cam is a great offensive mind, it takes time to get the pieces you need to be successful. We still don't have a tall receiver on the roster. Hang in there Cam will be fine. But the backlash from me Disagreeing, might make me public enemy number one.

[Guest ArmyRaven52]

[quote name='RBates' timestamp='1315692296' post='783083']
I disagree i like Cam i think he will be fine. Flacco has to work on his mechanics, and the offense will be fine. (ex: learn to hide the ball on fake dives, not starring down receivers, and most importantly getting rattled when we play the Steelers). Cam is a great offensive mind, it takes time to get the pieces you need to be successful. We still don't have a tall receiver on the roster. Hang in there Cam will be fine. But the backlash from me Disagreeing, might make me public enemy number one.
[/quote]

Off with his head.. haha only joking.

If you haven't noticed I like these cam thread's. I think any OC who is worth his salt should be able to look at the talent around them and install schemes and go from there. They should not need to have their pieces before they can run an offense. now of course every OC hs their preferences and depending on where that offense is within the personnel requirements for that OC there will be varying degrees of success.

That being said, we should not have had to draft to 6'5" WR's because they are the only one's that Cam knows how to use. It is the job of the FO and GM to find the best talent on the board to help make your team better. It is the coach's job to translate their talents to the field and make them into a winning football team. now there is obviously going to be some inherent overlap and communication so that way you can have a balanced team and continue to evolve. however 6'5" rceiver's arent around all of the time and usually if they are there are only a handful of talented ones.

Look at the receiver's around the league there are only a handful of receivers that come close to six five. Andre Johnson is 6'3", Dwayne Bowe 6'2", Roddy white, 6'0", Greg Jennings 5'11", Fitz 6'3" etc etc. None of them are all that close to 6'5" but all of them are better than any of the receiver's cam has had. The only tall receiver's that should be mentioned in here is Megatron. Height should not be the most important thing when you are evaluating WR's.

Now to Flacco. He is going into his 4th year he is still learning obviously but he is ever improving. Cam has been coaching for 30 + years who should be helping whom in regards to getting this offense where it should be. Cam should be facilitating his growth instead of having him get cracked every other play because the only two play's he can muster is end around's and deep passes to slow receiver's.

[1/28/01]

[quote name='edreedfromtheu' timestamp='1315691661' post='783065']
What kind of question is this?
There is a LOT of ways the Ravens could underachieve.  You can't blame them all on the offensive coordinator.  You have to wait and see how the season goes, and if the Ravens underachieve then you have to determine WHY they underachieved.
But yes, if the offense is stale... predictable... and just unproductive, Cam Cameron will be gone.  [b]That would buy Flacco at least one more year.[/b]
[/quote]
You're ridiculous!! One more year for what? Progression and continued success!!??

[IMissMattStover]

Cam can do only so much, then its up to the players. Lighten up on him guys.

[i82much]

[quote name='ArmyRaven52' timestamp='1315667546' post='782620']

It is ?? then how do you explain our D being great under 3 DC and then we get mattison and we are severely lacking to say the least.
[/quote]

Yeah I wouldn't say the D was "severely lacking" under Mattison. Took some time to gel but as I recall we wound up ranked fairly high, points against, yards allowed etc. Too lazy to google.

Anyway keep your head down and good luck over there. Don't eat too many MRE's and if you do, don't post constipated. (completely just kidding.)

[IMissMattStover]

Well Said.

[Guest ArmyRaven52]

[quote name='i82much' timestamp='1315698188' post='783249']

Yeah I wouldn't say the D was "severely lacking" under Mattison. Took some time to gel but as I recall we wound up ranked fairly high, points against, yards allowed etc. Too lazy to google.

Anyway keep your head down and good luck over there. Don't eat too many MRE's and if you do, don't post constipated. (completely just kidding.)
[/quote]

I would not say it was either because of the talent we had but I would say the coaching left something to be desired, and thanks, trust me the gum in them makes up for it.