Flacco - Game Manager or ?

[flynismo]

I know we are sick of the Ryan vs Flacco debates, but I just cant take it anymore after going through some fantasy league evaluations!!!

I'm sick of this perception that Flacco is some game manager, while Ryan is this audible calling playmaker of Peyton proportions.

When we talk about game managers, what is that exactly? That is a guy who makes short, safe throws, who does not take risks right?

So how is it that Flacco is generally acknowledged as having one of the best deep balls in the game, and attempted more deep passes than anyone in the league other than Rivers, but people try to stick him with the "game manager" label?

And yet Ryan, with his ludicrous 6.5 YPA (ranking behind guys like Chad Henne and Shaun Hill), who is the definition of a game manager and master of dink-n-dunk, is embraced as Peyton 2.0?


Please help me understand.

[mhead66]

Lol I hear ya'.

The only thing I got is that the "experts" see Ryan's receivers - Roddy White, Tony Gonzalez & Julio Jones, and fall in love. They "assume" Ryan will light it up, with aerial bombs by these "world-class" receivers...

I mean, Ryan is statistically inferior to Flacco, but it's all about perception. They create an image - of Ryan as the next Peyton - and then they talk about it so much, that it becomes fact in their minds.

That's all I got...

[Alexir]

I got both on my FF team. Ryan was drafted 3 rounds before Joe. Man people are idiots. They are the same talent level. Which isn't elite btw.

[darklight1216]

Flacco plays on a team that is renowned for it's defense, therefore "he doesn't have to do as much,"his defense can win games for him" and that is why "he's just a game manager," and all that jazz.

[Ngata Chance]

Because Flacco is a Raven. I have a feeling if the roles were reversed, and we had Ryan, the media/pundits/experts would be hailing Flacco as the 2nd coming.

I love it. I love it when Flacco wins despite what everyone says. Keep sticking it to 'em, Joe, and making them look like the frauds they are

[flynismo]

[quote name='Alexir' timestamp='1314316588' post='764385']
I got both on my FF team. Ryan was drafted 3 rounds before Joe. Man people are idiots. They are the same talent level. Which isn't elite btw.
[/quote]

Yeah, neither are elite, and I'm not trying to make that argument. I'm not even trying to argue that one is better than the other. I'm just tired of the politics!!!

[colljb9]

A very smart man named bill parcells made a comment once as coach of the cowboys..in summary "my number one thing a quarterback cant be is a celebrity quarterback...he needs to focus all his effots on the game of football and cant get distracted by the media and celebrity status away from the field"

I LOVE joe flacco being criticized by the media, flacco doesnt feel like he owes anything to anyone except for the ravens fans and his teammates and the ravens organization. Hes a good quarterback who has the work ethic to become elite. He doesnt stick his nose in the media and is one of the most humble guys around the league. I cant wait to see what joe does this season because i really believe he will shock a lot of people, and that all starts tonight against the redskins. I dont care what the conditions are...a great quarterback succeeds in the most adverse conditions and flacco is no exception. look for big things tonight

[Militant X 1]

i think that alot of that had to do with Atlanta moving on beyond their Vick days. so, Ryan was billed as the "second-coming" prior to his arrival. Atlanta's FO was determined to establish Ryan as the new "face' of the organization. Flacco? came in as a 3rd stringer that lucked-up into the starting role as the Ravens QB due to illness and injury of the other two QBs. and all he had to do was "manage" games and not lose them. the defense carried him!

but now...after 3 seasons in the league...it is time for Flacco to do the carrying...of the offense and put them on his back and lead us to the Superbowl and win it! LET'S GOOOOOOO JOE!!

~Mili

[EnVy_CaLiBeR]

Haters gon' hate.

[flynismo]

And btw, last year was not some statistical abberation. This is the second year in a row Ryan has scorched defenses for 6.5 YPA (actually, 6.47 YPA in 2009).

[xxhighriser]

I would say mainly because Flacco's number 2 receiver is his RB. Not taking anything away from Rice, but when people see a running back with 60+ catches they will most likely consider the QB conservative

[JohnJohnson]

Flacco doesn't look like a game manager to me. He looks like a guy who can pick up big chunks of yardage more easily than almost any QB. Complaining that he's not as good as Rodgers or Brady is ridiculous in his fourth season. He has his strengths, and we haven't seen how strong they can be.

[mhead66]

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1314317261' post='764439']
And btw, last year was not some statistical abberation. This is the second year in a row Ryan has scorched defenses for 6.5 YPA (actually, 6.47 YPA in 2009).
[/quote]
Only Derek Anderson, Sam Bradford and Jimmy Clausen were worse... and two of those three will be backups to Cam Newton, ironically enough.

[colljb9]

with doss as our number three and evans on those quick slants with boldin and dickson running seams up the middle, our 10-15 yard passing game looks explosive and looks like it should definitely help out flaccos stats even more. Lee did exactly what he was brought in to do tonight...redskins fell asleep and evans burns them with a perfect throw from flacco for a touchdown. Offense, WHEN flacco has time, looks top 10

[atljbo]

I will walk away from this one...lol.. I just want to say 2 things.

1. In 03 when Brady won his championship.. He averaged 6.9 yards per attempted (The year before that it was 6.3 per attempt) .. The guys executed their offense.. Heck last year Peyton Manning yards per pass was 6.9

2. With the added weapons and the release of Michael "no yac yard" Jenkins.... Matt Ryan will have a better per pass attempt... Our team was last at getting yac yards... Its the preseason but we can see the difference in our offense... More down the field passes and more yac yards.


I think most see Matt Ryan more of a game manageable because we had the 5th scoring offense... Our team is built for our D to play with a lead (We kinda saw that when we faced you guys)... So Ryan cant just be a manager... Ryan was also top 3 in 3rd downs and 4th downs (Steve Young call money down = 3rd downs)

Both guys have parts of their game they thrive in...

[JohnJohnson]

^^ Exactly, Matt Ryan has his strengths as well. You have to consider YPA along with other stats.

[atljbo]

[quote name='JohnJohnson' timestamp='1314331575' post='766550']
^^ Exactly, Matt Ryan has his strengths as well. You have to consider YPA along with other stats.
[/quote]
exactly... Every offense is different... Like Vick said (never thought ill say that) .. "The offensive scheme makes the QB".... Its how much you mater your scheme aka what you are asked to do....

Ryan does have to get that 6.5 up... I have no doubt he will... But the guy was mastering what he was asked to do... 1. Have 10 + play drives (ranked 2nd in the league at that) .... 2. Win time of possession (top 7 in that) ... 3. 3rd down conversions (3rd in the league) .. The problem with that is during the season you can win with that but like Jimmy Johnson said... In the playoffs its all about explosive plays.


I'm not going to knock Flacco to make Ryan look ... Matt Ryan has the things he is really good at and so does flacco.

One thing i will say... Flynismo... I dont think its fair to throw the "dink and donk " thing at Ryan when a guy like Ray Rice turns a 3 yard dump play into a 10+ yard play or a screen into a big play....

[flynismo]

[quote name='atljbo' timestamp='1314333395' post='766671']

exactly... Every offense is different... Like Vick said (never thought ill say that) .. "The offensive scheme makes the QB".... Its how much you mater your scheme aka what you are asked to do....

Ryan does have to get that 6.5 up... I have no doubt he will... But the guy was mastering what he was asked to do... 1. Have 10 + play drives (ranked 2nd in the league at that) .... 2. Win time of possession (top 7 in that) ... 3. 3rd down conversions (3rd in the league) .. The problem with that is during the season you can win with that but like Jimmy Johnson said... In the playoffs its all about explosive plays.


I'm not going to knock Flacco to make Ryan look ... Matt Ryan has the things he is really good at and so does flacco.

One thing i will say... Flynismo... I dont think its fair to throw the "dink and donk " thing at Ryan when a guy like Ray Rice turns a 3 yard dump play into a 10+ yard play or a screen into a big play....
[/quote]


sure it's fair, because that's what Ryan does. Flacco throws to Rice a good bit, but it would be kind of insane not to when your RB is a terrific reciever.

But the big difference here is that as I said, Flacco takes more deep shots than almost any QB in the game. That's not what game managers do. Game managers are asked to do what ATL asks Ryan to do.

Is it Ryan's fault that he plays in that kind of an offense? Well, it is kinda, if he's allowed to audible whenever he wants to.

As for YAC, Rice is the only guy on our team last year who could do that for us. Not even Boldin was above mediocre in that respect, so the Rice thing doesn't really carry much weight.

[JohnJohnson]

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1314335094' post='766754']
sure it's fair, because that's what Ryan does. Flacco throws to Rice a good bit, but it would be kind of insane not to when your RB is a terrific reciever.

But the big difference here is that as I said, Flacco takes more deep shots than almost any QB in the game. That's not what game managers do. Game managers are asked to do what ATL asks Ryan to do.

Is it Ryan's fault that he plays in that kind of an offense? Well, it is kinda, if he's allowed to audible whenever he wants to.

As for YAC, Rice is the only guy on our team last year who could do that for us. Not even Boldin was above mediocre in that respect, so the Rice thing doesn't really carry much weight.
[/quote]

Throwing shorter passes doesn't equal managing the game. Two 5 yard completions in a row is as good as a 10 yard completion, but it will affect YPA. That's why you have to take total yards into consideration, as well as situational play.

But I agree that Ray Rice does not boost Flacco's stats the way some people imply. Sometimes he's basically a receiver, like his 30 yard TD catch against the Saints last season.

[colljb9]

I agree matt ryan is a very good quarterback and will probably take more shots this year. I believe with rice and the emergence of our tight ends, using boldin at his actual position in the slot, doss, and evans on quick slants flacco will become a little bit more of a game manager this year. But we all cant forget, as flacco showed tonight...hes throws one of the top 5 prettiest deep balls in the nfl...we have speed with reed and evans much like roethlisberger has wallace and bryant...i wanna see flacco take these shots because we now have wide recievers who can make these plays

[atljbo]

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1314335094' post='766754']
sure it's fair, because that's what Ryan does. Flacco throws to Rice a good bit, but it would be kind of insane not to when your RB is a terrific reciever.

But the big difference here is that as I said, Flacco takes more deep shots than almost any QB in the game. That's not what game managers do. Game managers are asked to do what ATL asks Ryan to do.

Is it Ryan's fault that he plays in that kind of an offense? Well, it is kinda, if he's allowed to audible whenever he wants to.

As for YAC, Rice is the only guy on our team last year who could do that for us. Not even Boldin was above mediocre in that respect, so the Rice thing doesn't really carry much weight.
[/quote]


But you audible to another play in your playbook... If the routes are not deep.. It doesnt make any difference...Also if it is and Roddy (our only deep threat at the time) was double teamed with a safety over the top... You cant force it... Thats how ints happen... Matt Ryan did what the offense asked him to do.... In 08 we Matt Ryan was in the top 8 in 20+ plays and 40+ plays... Some falcon fans feel like Mularkey and Ryan to a certain extent got conservative when we brought in Tony Gonzalez... To help our Young D... We turned into this long grind it out offense... Mularkey got really conservative.

I'm not saying Ryan is perfect... The guy has to improve on some things and his deep ball is the main thing (get that yac up)... The guy definitely does not just manage our offense... Ive pointed out the reasons on an earlier post.

And with Rice... You are right ... Its smart to use that weapon... My point is YAC is a QB best friend... a 3 yard dump play turned into a 14 yard play is huge... Thats not a knock on Flacco.. Thats the smart move...I'm just talking about Yac yards... Its just like Danny Woodhead averaged over 11 yards a catch for the Patriots... It definitly helps if you have a RB that can turn those 3 or 4 yard plays into a 10+ yard play.

But at the end of the day... Its all about what the scheme ask you to do.

[flynismo]

[quote name='JohnJohnson' timestamp='1314335469' post='766767']


Throwing shorter passes doesn't equal managing the game. Two 5 yard completions in a row is as good as a 10 yard completion, but it will affect YPA. That's why you have to take total yards into consideration, as well as situational play.
[/quote]


then what is a game manager, if it's not basically a long handoff every time you throw the ball?

and I understand that a vertical offense does not suit a guy like Ryan well, so it would be crazy for ATL to use him like we use Flacco.

But I just cant wrap my head around the game manager label given to Flacco. He's much more a gunslinger than anything. I guess since he rarely turns the ball over, people dont consider him as such.

[Raving_Heathen]

I'm sure people didn't listen to the Brian Kenny show tonight (ESPN radio), but on his Mr Inside/Mr Outside segment, they had KC Joyner (ESPN Insider and general stat geek) and Ross Tucker (former NFL O-lineman and now talk show host) on, and one of the questions Brian Kenny asked them was whether Flacco was elite. Just the fact that the national media is actually entertaining the topic shows how good Flacco is.

Anyway, both guys said Flacco isn't elite (no surprise because he isn't), BUT they both said he's close. Ross Tucker said that after the Top 6 guys (Brady, PManning, Rodgers, Rivers, Brees, and Roethlisberger), Flacco would fall somewhere in the 7-10 range. He also said he laughs when Baltimore fans rip on Flacco and basically said we don't realize and appreciate what we have. And KC Joyner said he'd rank Flacco in the "6.2" range (lol). Take that as you will though because it's no secret that KC has a major man-crush on Flacco.

But KC did back up your stat that last year Flacco [u][b]led the league[/b][/u] in stretch vertical yards (yards gained on passes that traveled 20 yards or more through the air), which he further points out is remarkable considering the Ravens had no one on the roster (other than Stallworth who did nothing) who could run a 40 faster than tomorrow. And to back THAT stat up, there was a Football Outsiders article that pointed out that Flacco actually had more success on passes 25 yards or greater through the air than on the short to intermediate stuff.

Oops, I guess I should finish my thought. So basically I don't think everyone thinks Flacco is [u][b]only[/b][/u] a game manager, but up to this point that's all he's been tasked to be 90% of the time. I don't think being a game manager is an insult anyway. Taking care of the ball and playing conservatively while still being able to put up points for your team isn't trivial. Half the starting QBs in the league don't have the talent to be game managers.

[colljb9]

Great comments Raving---this just gives me even more condience...on two games in a row flacco has hit evans with a perfect quick slant for around 15 yard gains. He obviously continues to hit rice short and hits pitta and boldin underneath too. His deep game never will leave him with his beautiful throws to dickson and evans for over 30 yards traveled in the air...and i believe one of his passes to boldin traveled at least 20 yards in the air. Hes backing up his talk and giving ravens fans confidence he can perform. Hes not elite yet...but hes as close as your gonna get. With peytons status unsure...maybe flacco tips the scale and takes over mannings spot and enters into that last spot in the elite category this year. (not saying hell take over peytons numbers, saying he'll be the last spot in the elite category...kinda like saying the guy in the 3000 hit club with the least amount of his over 3000)

[flynismo]

[quote name='atljbo' timestamp='1314336026' post='766783']
But at the end of the day... Its all about what the scheme ask you to do.
[/quote]

That's exactly my point!

I'm not debating the skills of either guy. Clearly they are both emerging stars. Neither are elite yet. But after this season, that might change.

What my point is, mainly concerns Flacco -- this false perception that he is a game manager that is carried by his defense. Nothing could be further from the truth. At times, we have been frustrated by having too many 3 and outs on offense last year...a lot of that had to do with our OL not letting deep routes develop with our slow as molasses recievers. And again, that is not making an excuse for Flacco -- that is pointing out the fact that we rely on him pretty heavily to make plays for us.

I only used ryan as an example, because he is the most glaring example of the hypocrisy. Do I think Ryan is capable of being more than a game manager? I'd be a fool if I said anything other than "Hell yeah". But, as it is, Ryan plays in a safe, conservative offense where he doesn't have to put himself out there very often. Flacco does.

[atljbo]

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1314336621' post='766801']
then what is a game manager, if it's not basically a long handoff every time you throw the ball?

and I understand that a vertical offense does not suit a guy like Ryan well, so it would be crazy for ATL to use him like we use Flacco.

But I just cant wrap my head around the game manager label given to Flacco. He's much more a gunslinger than anything. I guess since he rarely turns the ball over, people dont consider him as such.
[/quote]

To me a game manager is..... You have a great D to lean on and a great running game... Your team dont ask you to be a hero... They just ask you to play within certain guide lines..... AKA... Just dont lose the game... To me it has nothing to do with going deep... To me its about do your team trust you enough to carry them when needed.

But i think thats what Harrison meant when he said Big Ben know he's not Peyton Manning ... He knows he should just hand the ball off.... Or whatever he said... Thats why the players ranked him lower then most thought they would.... The guy is a winner to me but it sound like they see him more as a game manager..

[flynismo]

[quote name='Raving_Heathen' timestamp='1314337034' post='766808']
I'm sure people didn't listen to the Brian Kenny show tonight (ESPN radio), but on his Mr Inside/Mr Outside segment, they had KC Joyner (ESPN Insider and general stat geek) and Ross Tucker (former NFL O-lineman and now talk show host) on, and one of the questions Brian Kenny asked them was whether Flacco was elite. Just the fact that the national media is actually entertaining the topic shows how good Flacco is.

Anyway, both guys said Flacco isn't elite (no surprise because he isn't), BUT they both said he's close. Ross Tucker said that after the Top 6 guys (Brady, PManning, Rodgers, Rivers, Brees, and Roethlisberger), Flacco would fall somewhere in the 7-10 range. He also said he laughs when Baltimore fans rip on Flacco and basically said we don't realize and appreciate what we have. And KC Joyner said he'd rank Flacco in the "6.2" range (lol). Take that as you will though because it's no secret that KC has a major man-crush on Flacco.

But KC did back up your stat that last year Flacco [u][b]led the league[/b][/u] in stretch vertical yards (yards gained on passes that traveled 20 yards or more through the air), which he further points out is remarkable considering the Ravens had no one on the roster (other than Stallworth who did nothing) who could run a 40 faster than tomorrow. And to back THAT stat up, there was a Football Outsiders article that pointed out that Flacco actually had more success on passes 25 yards or greater through the air than on the short to intermediate stuff.
[/quote]

Good stuff!

[scrock]

oops wrong thread

[flynismo]

[quote name='atljbo' timestamp='1314336026' post='766783']


But you audible to another play in your playbook... If the routes are not deep.. It doesnt make any difference...Also if it is and Roddy (our only deep threat at the time) was double teamed with a safety over the top... You cant force it... Thats how ints happen... Matt Ryan did what the offense asked him to do.... In 08 we Matt Ryan was in the top 8 in 20+ plays and 40+ plays... Some falcon fans feel like Mularkey and Ryan to a certain extent got conservative when we brought in Tony Gonzalez... To help our Young D... We turned into this long grind it out offense... Mularkey got really conservative.

I'm not saying Ryan is perfect... The guy has to improve on some things and his deep ball is the main thing (get that yac up)... The guy definitely does not just manage our offense... Ive pointed out the reasons on an earlier post.

And with Rice... You are right ... Its smart to use that weapon... My point is YAC is a QB best friend... a 3 yard dump play turned into a 14 yard play is huge... Thats not a knock on Flacco.. Thats the smart move...I'm just talking about Yac yards... Its just like Danny Woodhead averaged over 11 yards a catch for the Patriots... It definitly helps if you have a RB that can turn those 3 or 4 yard plays into a 10+ yard play.

But at the end of the day... Its all about what the scheme ask you to do.
[/quote]


Crap, I negged you instead of +. Wanted to +1 you for actually trying to make a point instead of our usual pointless debates lol

[flynismo]

[quote name='scrock' timestamp='1314338059' post='766828']
oops wrong thread
[/quote]

But I did neg you on purpose! haha