Why Do We Argue Over Flacco?

[Militant X 1]

[quote name='callahan09' timestamp='1314022737' post='759705']

[b]Well I don't think it's fair (or accurate) to say he looks rookie-ish after 4 seasons as the starter. He hasn't even started his 4th season yet, it's still the pre-season. [/b]I also don't think it's even fair to say he's looked rookie-ish in this pre-season. It's the pre-season and he's got almost entirely a new roster of weapons to learn to work with and it's following a lock-out where there hadn't been any official practices or team meetings for several months, and he hasn't even been that bad in the pre-season. He has had a lot of great awareness and mobility and made some good passes and some bad passes, overall I think he's played about as expected for a 4th year guy with an arsenal of almost entirely new weapons following an unusual off-season. Is there much precedent to go on for a situation like that? Not really, but I think it's absolutely to be expected and normal what we're seeing from him in this situation, and not "rookie-ish." Hell, I think Matt Ryan has performed worse than Flacco in the pre-season so far, but nobody is complaining about him. In his last game, he had a lot of really awful passes as well and his only great pass was actually only like a 6-yarder that his receiver managed to turn into something special after the catch.
[/quote]

it is obvious that my "rookie-ish" statement struck a cord with but you will be alright. lol! that is how "I" see it bruh! i like Flacco but i will always keep it real where my own opinion and my own viewpoint about his gameplay is concerned! he has been in the league as a "starter" for 3 years now. and to me...at times....he still comes off "rookie-ish!" and the multiple excuses that you cats in here keep coming up with and making for his poor performances at times are running out!

here is a classic "rookie-ish" move by Flacco. in thursday nights game vs the Chiefs, Flacco was indecisive on a pass, he tried to tuck the ball back in and it got knock out and rolled for a bit. Instead of jumping on the ball, Flacco tried to grab it or scoop it up with one hand while he was sitting on his butt and the chiefs recovered it. sure, it was called back but that type of move from a veteran? "rookie-ish!" preseason or not....protect the ball! and, Flacco has yet (in 2 preseason games) to "throw" for a TD. Rice and the second team put up rushing TDs. but Flacco? in 2 preseason games, with the first team offense mind you (new weapons and all), Flacco (the veteran QB) has led the Ravens down the field and settled for 2 FGs totalling 6 pts. in 2 games? c'mon bruh!

can Flacco get better? of course! can he become an "elite" QB in this league? of course! i want him to do well. but....once again, game film doesn't lie!

~Mili

[neoi78]

I think the issue is, as one caller on 105.7 said perfectly... its "damn" joe flacco. when he has a great throw, your like "damnnn joe, that was awesome!".. but when he throws some bonehead ball, its like "damnnn joe, what did you see there?". hence, "damn joe flacco"

[Militant X 1]

[quote name='T-ray' timestamp='1314030200' post='759791']

[b]I'm about to get burnt here[/b], but you have to admit; you would trade him for Rodgers in a heart beat lol.
[/quote]

don't worry about what "other" people in here think about your personal opinions bruh! always speak your mind! Rodgers is a bad boy! lol!

~Mili

[1/28/01]

[quote name='Militant X 1' timestamp='1314034777' post='759874']

it is obvious that my "rookie-ish" statement struck a cord with but you will be alright son!  that is how "I" see it!  i like Flacco but i will always keep it real where my opinion and my viewpoint about his gameplay is concerned!  he has been in the league as a "starter" for 3 years now.  and to me...at times....he still comes off "rookie-ish!"  and the multiple excuses that you cats keep coming up with and making for his poor performances at times are running out!

here is a classic "rookie-ish" move by Flacco.  in thursday nights game vs the Chiefs, Flacco was indecisive on a pass, he tried to tuck the ball back in and it got knock out and rolled for a bit.  Instead of jumping on the ball, Flacco tried to grab it or scoop it up with one hand while he was sitting on his butt and the chiefs recovered it.  sure, it was called back but that type of move from a veteran?  "rookie-ish!"  preseason or not....protect the ball!  and, Flacco has yet (in 2 preseason games) to "throw" for a TD.  Rice and the second team put up rushing TDs.  but Flacco?  in 2 preseason games, with the first team offense, Flacco (the veteran QB) has led the Ravens down the field and settled for 2 FGs totalling 6 pts.  c'mon!

can Flacco get better?  of course!  can he become an "elite" QB in this league?  of course!  i want him to do well but once again, game film doesn't lie!

~Mili
[/quote]
"I" kinda "agree" with "some" points "here"

[gabefergy]

Nice read, I think that blogger has a very interesting take not only on Flacco, but on how we build up players in general. We all have our own expectations of what we want from our team, favorite players, etc and that personal bias is going to have a huge impact on our evaluations of how they play.

[Alexir]

I just don't see him as elite. Elite is a word that shouldn't be tossed around, those are pro bowlers, league MVPs, etc. Thats like saying Maggie Gyllenhaal is a 10. It's just plain wrong.

[Militant X 1]

[quote name='1/28/01' timestamp='1314035167' post='759887']
"I" kinda "agree" with "some" points "here" [img]http://content.boards.baltimoreravens.com//public/style_emoticons/default/smile.png[/img]
[/quote]

"oh" "yeah?" [img]http://content.boards.baltimoreravens.com//public/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.png[/img]

~Mili

[PWNEDbyDEANO]

[quote name='Mick0311' timestamp='1314030525' post='759798']
I agree. I think the thing that gets most people is the occasional things he does that make you wonder. Look, I think he is the best we have had,and I do believe he will be great for us. But, he does silly things sometimes. He seems to take the ugliest of sacks at times, that result is bad fumbles. I can't remember once where he saw a flag thrown for defensive offsides and took a shot down field. Maybe he has, but I know I've seen it not happen many times. When he gets pressured, he makes silly mistakes, which he has gotten better at though. Not seeing obvious pressure from the edges. Handing off to Rice on a run to the right when Troy P. is lined up at the line of scrimmage. If he is there, he is coming. Little things that make a huge difference. Look, I am firmly in the Flacco camp. I think this will be a true breakout year for him, but I completely understand the reasoned concerns. Note I said reasoned, not some of the silly criticisms we see here sometimes.

On a side note, I am a bit nervous about the Squeelers game. We seem to be a jittery team at the start of games, and many times Joe really gets rolling toward the middle of the second quarter or so. I really hope we start off quick against them like we did in the playoffs last year. I just get worried since we seem to be affected by the "nerves" more often than not. But, I'm probably just being a fan, and worrying too much. Anyway, sorry about the rant. Coffee is a helluva drug... /rickJames
[/quote]

Yeah Joe does make some silly mistakes on occasion, but it's those kind of things that I expect him to grow out of in due course. He has all the physical tools to be a great QB, he just needs to be more confident/aware at times.

[quote name='T-ray' timestamp='1314030660' post='759800']
Sanchez is horrible. He has nothing to drool about on him at all, except being the Media Golden Boy since he plays for New York. Everything that the media says about Flacco riding his D is not true about Flacco, but instead Sanchez. He has never led his team to the playoffs before; its always been the D, the run game, and lucky wins such as beating the Colts SECOND string in his first year of playing.
[/quote]

Agreed 100%. People who rate Sanchez really highly are idiots. The attention he gets irks me more than it does with Ryan and Freeman.

[colljb9]

im pretty sure our first team offense scored that rushing touchdown militant. And for the rodgers thing i completely agree i would trade flacco for rodgers in a heartbeat but do you account for the fact rodgers is so advanced because he sat behind brett favre for 3 years or do you think he just naturally came into the nfl and was going to be as good as he is even if he started his rookie year. No matter what anyone says im still a big proponent of sitting a rookie quarterback for a year or two so he can learn, maybe getting him some experience late in games. Flacco has been thrown into the fire and dealth with new players every year, yet has not shown he can make those guys better. I think he has shown signs of greatness and this is going to be a huge year for him. The one difference i have is while flacco may not be counting on the defense to win him games (as was seen all last year where our defense blew leads almost every game it seemed) i want to see him dominate. How many times can you go the ravens had an easy win? I already know flacco can not make mistakes and score a touchdown or two and our defense will do the rest but i want to see him dominate. Turn those 4 interceptions against the bengals into 4 touchdowns this year. Turn that fumble by polamalu into a hot read right at him blitzing and scorch the single coverage for a defense. Brady DOMINATES. Peyton DOMINATES. Brees and Rodgers DOMINATE. lets see flacco step up and do the same

[cursona pirate]

I love this article. I love Joe flacco so much!!!!!
I cant wait for this season to start moving!

[scrock]

[quote name='FerrariFan87' timestamp='1314030226' post='759792']
I think that the vast majority of the Flacco bashing stems from his less than stellar stats in the playoffs and the fact that he hasn't beaten the Steelers when Big Ben is at the helm. If Flacco wins on September 11, it will quiet a lot of his doubters for a time.
[/quote]

He played well against KC last year, the whole team imploded in the 2nd half against the Steelers

In his rookie year he didnt play well but thats almost expected out of a rookie, in his sophomore year he was injured, he had a deep thigh bruise if i remember correctly and could barely walk during the week, but he made it thru and didnt play great...I think Joe takes way too much heat

[Rinbee]

[quote name='PWNEDbyDEANO' timestamp='1314021999' post='759702']

I didn't "randomly" pick the 2010 playoffs, I picked them because they are the most recent and are therefore the best representative of his current level of ability.

Also, his postseason improvement hasn't been "slight" as you called it. Excluding the 2010 playoffs, he has 1 TD to 6 INTs. Include the 2010 playoffs and he has 4 TDs to 7 picks. Much better, no?

Not even close to where we need him to be? So you don't think we'd have won the divisional game if Rice hadn't fumbled for the only time in the entire season or Birk snapped into his leg or two of our best receivers dropping crucial passes (thrown well, I may add) or our defense giving up a 3rd and 19 for 58 yards?

Flacco gets too much heat for our playoff shortcomings... plain and simple. He isn't perfect, but he gives us a better chance to win than most other QBs out there.
[/quote]


The problem with the Flacco debate is that most people approach it emotionally, not rationally. Supporters pick his bright spots and call out the mistakes of other players. Detractors focus on his weaknesses and ignore the mistakes of others. It is often said that "Flacco led the Ravens to the PO's his first three years." If people want to make this statement, they have to be fair and look at all of his stats and those of the other players. To date, Joe's stats in the PO's are average to below average, even if he has gotten better. People say Flacco is the best QB that B'more has ever had. That's not saying much, so why use this dubious stat as proof of Flacco's greatness. The Flacco debate will only begin to be resolved when everyone, including coaches, look at his perofrmance objectively and compare it to other NFL QB's, especially those who have been on SB championship teams

[Militant X 1]

[quote name='colljb9' timestamp='1314035838' post='759909']
[b]im pretty sure our first team offense scored that rushing touchdown militant[/b]. And for the rodgers thing i completely agree i would trade flacco for rodgers in a heartbeat but do you account for the fact rodgers is so advanced because he sat behind brett favre for 3 years or do you think he just naturally came into the nfl and was going to be as good as he is even if he started his rookie year. No matter what anyone says im still a big proponent of sitting a rookie quarterback for a year or two so he can learn, maybe getting him some experience late in games. Flacco has been thrown into the fire and dealth with new players every year, yet has not shown he can make those guys better. I think he has shown signs of greatness and this is going to be a huge year for him. The one difference i have is while flacco may not be counting on the defense to win him games (as was seen all last year where our defense blew leads almost every game it seemed) i want to see him dominate. How many times can you go the ravens had an easy win? I already know flacco can not make mistakes and score a touchdown or two and our defense will do the rest but i want to see him dominate. Turn those 4 interceptions against the bengals into 4 touchdowns this year. Turn that fumble by polamalu into a hot read right at him blitzing and scorch the single coverage for a defense. Brady DOMINATES. Peyton DOMINATES. Brees and Rodgers DOMINATE. lets see flacco step up and do the same
[/quote]

when i said; [i]rice and the second team scored rushing TDs,[/i] that was in the understanding that of course, Rice himself was on the first team when he scored! and the second team (Tyrod and the crew) scored the other rushing TDs. but Joe Flacco (with the 1st team) has not thrown or passed for a TD in 2 games so far. he has only led the first team offense to put up 2 FGs. preseason or not...just 6pts in 2 games?

~Mili

[SecretAgentMan]

Top ten QB's in the NFL
1.P. Manning
2. Brady
3. Rodgers
4. Brees
5. Vick
6. Rivers
7. Rottenberger [img]http://content.boards.baltimoreravens.com//public/style_emoticons/default/surrender.gif[/img]
8.Ryan.
9. Flacco
10. Freeman


On other lists it says Freeman is better than Flacco really.

[Intercepted]

[quote name='Mr. Irrelevant' timestamp='1314038448' post='759962']
Top ten QB's in the NFL
1.P. Manning
2. Brady
3. Rodgers
4. Brees
5. Vick
6. Rottenberger [img]http://content.boards.baltimoreravens.com//public/style_emoticons/default/surrender.gif[/img]
7. Ryan
8. Flacco
9. Freeman
10. E.Manning

On other lists it says Freeman is better than Flacc, really.
[/quote]

Phillip Rivers?

[Mick0311]

[quote name='PWNEDbyDEANO' timestamp='1314035500' post='759898']

Yeah Joe does make some silly mistakes on occasion, but it's those kind of things that I expect him to grow out of in due course. He has all the physical tools to be a great QB, he just needs to be more confident/aware at times.
[/quote]

Yes, I agree 100%. Can't wait. He can only get better.

[edreedfromtheu]

[quote name='Alexir' timestamp='1313989842' post='759563']
I debate his elite level status by pondering why he runs out of bounds for a negative 9 yard loss and how inaccurate he can be. I understand the article but to me, It doesn't matter that he is quiet and calm. In that way he kind of reminds me of Kurt Warner or Matt Schaub. I actually am impressed the way he has shown A LOT of leadership ability in the off season. But what it comes down to is his mechanics and poise in the pocket.

It's the results that make us debate about him. Some people see him going to the playoffs 3 years in the row, others see it as riding the coat tails of the defense. Some people see him as elite, some people see him as average. There will always be Optimists, Pessimists, and Realists but which one is which?
[/quote]

Pretty much the perfect answer, and it happened to be the first response.

To the original poster... Flacco's personality has nothing to do with why people debate over him. Who cares if he talks a lot or keeps to himself? This is football... we just want results. It's about the on-the-field product.

I'm glad you enjoyed an article tweeted by your favorite columnist.... but it has nothing to do with why people debate Flacco.

[Moderator 2]

[quote name='T-ray' timestamp='1314030200' post='759791']

I'm about to get burnt here, but you have to admit; you would trade him for Rodgers in a heart beat lol.
[/quote]
No Joe fits with our team.

[scrock]

[quote]
[b]Alexir, on 22 August 2011 - 12:10 AM, said:[/b]


I debate his elite level status by pondering why he runs out of bounds for a negative 9 yard loss and how inaccurate he can be. I understand the article but to me, It doesn't matter that he is quiet and calm. In that way he kind of reminds me of Kurt Warner or Matt Schaub. I actually am impressed the way he has shown A LOT of leadership ability in the off season. But what it comes down to is his mechanics and poise in the pocket.

[b]It's the results that make us debate about him. Some people see him going to the playoffs 3 years in the row, others see it as riding the coat tails of the defense.[/b] Some people see him as elite, some people see him as average. There will always be Optimists, Pessimists, and Realists but which one is which?[/quote]

The only problem with that theory is how come Kyle Boller or Anthony Wright couldnt take us to the playoffs three years straight? Joe Flacco carried this offense for a stretch last year when the run game wasnt going anywhere, Joe is a big reason for our success, so many years we had an elite defense and couldnt win games

[Finally]

[quote name='Rinbee' timestamp='1314038253' post='759957']
The Flacco debate will only begin to be resolved when everyone, including coaches, look at his perofrmance objectively and compare it to other NFL QB's, especially those who have been on SB championship teams
[/quote]

The whole point in being a fan is being passionate about your team and its players, you know, the opposite of being objective. People that ask others to be objective or a realist in a debate are really just asking them to agree with their opinions.

Let Rodgers have a couple of bad games and you will see GB fans debating about him. It is the nature of the beast. Sometimes the debates quiet down for awhile but they never go completely away.

[1/28/01]

[quote name='Militant X 1' timestamp='1314038329' post='759959']

when i said; [i]rice and the second team scored rushing TDs,[/i] that was in the understanding that of course, Rice himself was on the first team when he scored!  and the second team (Tyrod and the crew) scored the other rushing TDs. but Joe Flacco (with the 1st team) has not thrown or passed for a TD in 2 games so far.  he has only led the first team offense to put up 2 FGs.  preseason or not...just 6pts in 2 games?

~Mili
[/quote]

I understand what you're saying about him not throwing one in yet, but he led the drive where Rice scored. He attributed to 7 more points. I want more as well, but lets be real here. Wasn't that drive the one with Evans' 43 yarder followed by Rice's 26 yard TD scamper?

[Alexir]

[quote name='scrock' timestamp='1314044048' post='760083']

The only problem with that theory is how come Kyle Boller or Anthony Wright couldnt take us to the playoffs three years straight? Joe Flacco carried this offense for a stretch last year when the run game wasnt going anywhere, Joe is a big reason for our success, so many years we had an elite defense and couldnt win games
[/quote]

Boller and Anthony Wright are below average. Look at the weapons we gave Flacco. Im not saying Flacco is terrible, I am just saying he isn't a fantastic QB, he can be, but right now he is still just average.

[scrock]

[quote name='1/28/01' timestamp='1314044733' post='760098']
I understand what you're saying about him not throwing one in yet, but he led the drive where Rice scored. He attributed to 7 more points. I want more as well, but lets be real here. Wasn't that drive the one with Evans' 43 yarder followed by Rice's 26 yard TD scamper?
[/quote]

Yeah and Flacco played a series in the first game? And a half and a series in the 2nd...doesnt mean anything, its preseason

[scrock]

Last year he was 10th in Touchdowns, 7th in QB Rating...I think after week 2 he was 2nd behind only Tom Brady

I know this doesnt mean much but in fantasy football he was the 10th highest scoring QB...there are 32 teams

He's definitely in the top 10

[Ravenslifer]

I argue over Flacco because what many people see as his failures, I see as a quarterback maturing, taking his lumps, and going through growing pains. It's easy to look at guys like Brady, Manning, Brees, Rivers, Rodgers, etc. and say, "Hey, they did this and Flacco hasn't yet." It's hard for a lot of fans, I think, to sit back and say, "Okay, here's a guy who was drafted with the expectation that he'd ride the bench for a season or two, learn under Kyle Boller and Troy Smith (what he could really learn from either I don't know) or some other veteran, and then come out and play. Instead, he was thrust into a starting role that nobody, including me, thought he was ready for, and he responded by helping lead us to three straight playoff appearances. I think the old adage "perception is reality" also holds true here. Much of the media gushes over quarterbacks like Matt Ryan, Mark Sanchez, Sam Bradford, and Josh Freeman because they were big name quarterbacks at big time programs in college. Flacco came out of a D-3 school, wasn't really noticed until the postseason of his senior year and at the Senior Bowl and All-Star challenges, etc. I think most people didn't know what to make of Flacco when he came out, and because he wasn't a big name from a big program, people expected him to fail like so many others before him. When I try to evaluate him, I say, "Is he better than he was last year?" and every year for the past three the answer has been yes to me. I expect him to be even better this year, and I'll be satisfied with that.

[JohnJohnson]

I just don't understand where the expectations come from. Why do people expect him to be as good as he can be by season 3? Even NFL ready QBs who come out of a pro system in college don't reach their potential in year 3. Only Brady did, although you could argue that he got even better and 2007 was his best. And perhaps Flacco's detractors don't consider how good the Steelers really are. 3 turnovers in the Super Bowl, and they still had a chance to drive for the winning touchdown at the end of the game. We have a juggernaut right in our division. And if you're not a Ravens fan, how has your QB fared against the Steelers? Unless you're talking about Tom Brady or Aaron Rodgers, the answer is "not well."

[Crabcakes&Football]

[quote name='Ravenseconbeast' timestamp='1313990511' post='759573']
Say that to his 52 QB rating in playoffs. He needs to get better. I still love as our QB, and wouldnt want anyone else in the Ravens, but his performance in big games will determine whether we goto Superbowl or not.
[/quote]

Which was largely deflated by his performances in his rookie year and in 2009 which he played through injury during the playoffs. He improved in 2010 to a 90 QB rating in the playoffs, which is pretty darned good. Matt Ryan by comparison had a 69 rating in 2010 playoffs, Roethlisberger: 76.4, Brady: 89, Vick: 79.9.

[FerrariFan87]

Last year after 2 preseason games: 17/28 192 yards, 1 TD, 0 INT

This year after 2 preseason games: 15/30 184 yards, 0 TD, 0 INT

^Basically identical numbers, so there's really no cause for concern.

Flacco's 3rd preseason game stats last year: 21/34 229 yards, 2 TD, 1 INT

I'm looking for similar numbers on Thursday night.

[I AM LEGEND]

[quote name='scrock' timestamp='1314037179' post='759940']

He played well against KC last year, the whole team imploded in the 2nd half against the Steelers

In his rookie year he didnt play well but thats almost expected out of a rookie, in his sophomore year he was injured, he had a deep thigh bruise if i remember correctly and could barely walk during the week, but he made it thru and didnt play great...I think Joe takes way too much heat[/quote]

Sounds like one big excuse

[stan]

[quote name='Ravenseconbeast' timestamp='1313990511' post='759573']
Say that to his 52 QB rating in playoffs. He needs to get better. I still love as our QB, and wouldnt want anyone else in the Ravens, but his performance in big games will determine whether we goto Superbowl or not.
[/quote]
Big Ben had the worst QB rating of any Superbowl Winning QB. A few years later he signed for 100 million dollars. Steelers won it on defense and still do ... and don't complain. Aaron Rogers rode the bench for 4 years and when he eventually started they, Packer fans, still had some doubts. With some guys it just takes a little longer. Joe Montana rode the bench for a year. Jim Harbaugh was benched then cut then cut again before winning come-back player of the year. I think a QB's success relies more heavily on the overall skill of the offense, more so than we tend to realize. Our offense has been in a state of morph for a while. The offensive line and pass blocking by the backs has been horrendous.
Swap teams between Joey Harrington and Tom Brady. What do YOU think the outcome would be?