Why Do We Argue Over Flacco?

[theFRANCHISE]

The Baltimore Sun's Kevin Van Valkenburg, one of my favorite columnists, [url="http://twitter.com/#!/KVanValkenburg/status/105501554882252802"]tweeted a blog post[/url] he was sent that dissected the Joe Flacco debate and broke down why we argue so passionately over Flacco's development.

The blog post itself is one of the best breakdowns I've ever read. ([url="http://crimdelharris.wordpress.com/2011/08/04/joe-flacco/"]LINK[/url])

In essence, the post explains that, because Joe Flacco's personality is a blank slate in the public eye, he is whatever we individually view him as. While some people interpret his demeanor as lacking confidence, others see it as strong leadership. The reason why we debate so passionately over Flacco is because he is whatever we want him to be, and that the debate speaks more to what we value in a QB than about Flacco himself.

It's a long post, but it raises a lot of interesting points. I highly recommend you actually [i]sit down[/i] and digest it.

[Alexir]

I debate his elite level status by pondering why he runs out of bounds for a negative 9 yard loss and how inaccurate he can be. I understand the article but to me, It doesn't matter that he is quiet and calm. In that way he kind of reminds me of Kurt Warner or Matt Schaub. I actually am impressed the way he has shown A LOT of leadership ability in the off season. But what it comes down to is his mechanics and poise in the pocket.

It's the results that make us debate about him. Some people see him going to the playoffs 3 years in the row, others see it as riding the coat tails of the defense. Some people see him as elite, some people see him as average. There will always be Optimists, Pessimists, and Realists but which one is which?

[Militant X 1]

to me...it's not that Flacco is a "blank slate" and i am projecting on him what "I" want him to be. game film don't lie! Flacco has look good at times and he has looked down right horrible and "rookie-ish" (after 4 seasons as the starter) at times! it is what it is!

i did like portions of that blog though. [img]http://content.boards.baltimoreravens.com//public/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.png[/img]

~Mili

[Greatness]

I argue over Flacco because I'm a Flacco apologist. Also, I argue over Flacco because he's the best QB the Ravens ever had and he will be the Greatest when its all said and done, son!

[Ravenseconbeast]

Say that to his 52 QB rating in playoffs. He needs to get better. I still love as our QB, and wouldnt want anyone else in the Ravens, but his performance in big games will determine whether we goto Superbowl or not.

[ellicottraven]

While it is true he is a blank slate to some and an interpretation magnet, to me it boils down to inspiring confidence... thus far he has not been able to exude the sense that he is the 'GUY' that we the fans, and more importantly the Ravens can fully depend on! It is the proverbial 'it' factor that he either painfully lacks or is unable to display in a meaningful way... don't get me wrong I am a huge Flacco fan and occasional apologist, but what I write is precisely how I feel.

[Shadowalker]

Good read.

[Moderator 2]

In a team of HUGE personalities aka Sugg. Ray Lewis. Before this year Mason and Heap, LeRon McClain its easy for a quiet guy like Joe to get lost so he is aloof, doesn't care--I think he will emerge more this year and I would not trade him for anyone else.

[colljb9]

i believe flacco is good...not great...yet. He has progressed every year as this year it seems hes learned better pocket presence and actually keeping his eyes downfield when rolling out..so far, everyone remember he threw 25 touchdowns and 10 interceptions last year...thats pretty dang good for a 3rd year quarterback. I think the real reason we debate him is he started his rookie year. People realize this is a recent phenomena...heck look at rodgers in green bay who sat for 3 years learning under the greatest of all time. Flacco never had a vetern to follow and only had bulger to learn from as a back up who i believe just was there for the pay check and a last resort security blanket. I dont care that hes started for 3 years...i look for the first 2 in which we MADE the playoffs as developing years after being thrown into the fire. Last year as mentioned 25 tds and 10 ints and we MADE the playoffs. Im pretty sure no team has made the playoffs the last 3 years except for the ravens. This is his 4th year and look for this year for flacco to make it or break it...but for now please give him a break. Hey peyton manning threw a pick 6 against the saints to lose the super bowl, brady couldnt get it done with an undefeated team against the giants, hell jim kelly made 4 straight and couldnt win one. We'll see how he plays this year but until then i have my faith in flacco as i did from his first start.

[BloodRaven]

Differences in opinion on Flacco exist and are not going away anytime soon, I don't know why we all can't just respectfully agree to disagree.

[PWNEDbyDEANO]

[quote name='Alexir' timestamp='1313989842' post='759563']
I debate his elite level status by pondering why he runs out of bounds for a negative 9 yard loss and how inaccurate he can be. I understand the article but to me, It doesn't matter that he is quiet and calm. In that way he kind of reminds me of Kurt Warner or Matt Schaub. I actually am impressed the way he has shown A LOT of leadership ability in the off season. But what it comes down to is his mechanics and poise in the pocket.

[b]It's the results that make us debate about him. Some people see him going to the playoffs 3 years in the row, others see it as riding the coat tails of the defense. Some people see him as elite, some people see him as average. There will always be Optimists, Pessimists, and Realists but which one is which?[/b]
[/quote]

This. I think the majority of the media believe that he rides the defense to success, something which is becoming increasingly untrue. Another reason why I believe he is questioned is because of his career postseason stats, the importance of which are overblown. In the 2010 playoffs he played well in the KC game and was let down by others against PIT. That's all that matters to me. I don't care if he threw however many picks in the playoffs as a rookie as he wasn't even meant to start his rookie year. I personally think he has issues, as do most other QBs, but I believe he can and likely will overcome these issues.

It's time for him to silence the criticism and the arguments over his abilities.

[I AM LEGEND]

[quote name='Alexir' timestamp='1313989842' post='759563']
I debate his elite level status by pondering why he runs out of bounds for a negative 9 yard loss and how inaccurate he can be. I understand the article but to me, It doesn't matter that he is quiet and calm. In that way he kind of reminds me of Kurt Warner or Matt Schaub. I actually am impressed the way he has shown A LOT of leadership ability in the off season. But what it comes down to is his mechanics and poise in the pocket.

It's the results that make us debate about him. Some people see him going to the playoffs 3 years in the row, others see it as riding the coat tails of the defense. Some people see him as elite, some people see him as average. There will always be Optimists, Pessimists, and Realists but which one is which?
[/quote]

Everything he said..

[I AM LEGEND]

[quote name='PWNEDbyDEANO' timestamp='1314007106' post='759625']


This. I think the majority of the media believe that he rides the defense to success, something which is becoming increasingly untrue. Another reason why I believe he is questioned is because of his career postseason stats, the importance of which are overblown. In the 2010 playoffs he played well in the KC game and was let down by others against PIT. That's all that matters to me. I don't care if he threw however many picks in the playoffs as a rookie as he wasn't even meant to start his rookie year. I personally think he has issues, as do most other QBs, but I believe he can and likely will overcome these issues.

It's time for him to silence the criticism and the arguments over his abilities.
[/quote]

Postseason stats overblown?! ...then outta of his 3 playoff appearances you just randomly pick the 2010 playoffs...what about the other 2 years...was there a slight improvement from last years playoffs to the other 2? Sure. But not even close to where we need him to be...nowhere close.

[ravensdfan]

[quote name='Alexir' timestamp='1313989842' post='759563']
[b]I debate his elite level status by pondering why he runs out of bounds for a negative 9 yard loss [/b]and how inaccurate he can be. I understand the article but to me, It doesn't matter that he is quiet and calm. In that way he kind of reminds me of Kurt Warner or Matt Schaub. I actually am impressed the way he has shown A LOT of leadership ability in the off season. But what it comes down to is his mechanics and poise in the pocket.

It's the results that make us debate about him. Some people see him going to the playoffs 3 years in the row, others see it as riding the coat tails of the defense. Some people see him as elite, some people see him as average. There will always be Optimists, Pessimists, and Realists but which one is which?
[/quote]

I think perhaps that this (see bold) is one of the reasons we debate Flacco so much. It was one run, in one game (yes, a big game) at a time when we needed something to happen. I view that play and smh at the 9 yd loss but also realize that he had scrambled trying to extend the play and was looking downfield desperately searching for an open man. You view the play and surmise that Flacco continually runs out of bounds for a loss.

It is a good article but I am not sure that is the reason we debate Flacco.

[I AM LEGEND]

[quote name='ravensdfan' timestamp='1314010667' post='759634']


I think perhaps that this (see bold) is one of the reasons we debate Flacco so much. It was one run, in one game (yes, a big game) at a time when we needed something to happen. I view that play and smh at the 9 yd loss but also realize that he had scrambled trying to extend the play and was looking downfield desperately searching for an open man. You view the play and surmise that Flacco continually runs out of bounds for a loss.

It is a good article but I am not sure that is the reason we debate Flacco.
[/quote]

I think he brought up that one incident to show how Flacco has a good amount of "face palm" moments....

[3-4ravdef509]

[quote name='Ravenseconbeast' timestamp='1313990511' post='759573']
Say that to his 52 QB rating in playoffs. He needs to get better. I still love as our QB, and wouldnt want anyone else in the Ravens, but his performance in big games will determine whether we goto Superbowl or not.
[/quote]

See....you view that as a black and white judgement of his performance in the playoffs (or at least you seem to be)...but that simply doesn't paint an acurate picture of Joe.

Let's start in his rookie year. Two games, no picks and one crucial touchdown against the Titans. Did he win those games for us? No. But without him, we probably don't get to the playoffs, and the Titans would have easily won without that touchdown to Mason. And Flacco's pass to Heap was crucial to setting up a game winning field goal if i remember correctly. Against Pitt, well I can't judge him too harshly. We played close, but in the end that game was too big for any rookie in his position. Also remember we had virtually no offensive weapons aside from Heap and Mason. All in all, I think he did better than most rookies would in his position. 1Td and 3Int looks bad from the get go, but in context all those picks came from a rookie qb trying to make a comeback against the league's best defense.

2009, come on now. The dude shouldn't have been playing. He was obviously injured and couldn't throw the ball comfortably. I have a hard time making serious evaluations about those two games. Except that we had zero faith in Troy Smith if we played an injured Flacco over him. No tds, 3 more picks. But from a guy with a bruised and swollen leg with still no one to throw to.

Last year. He started slow but played great against KC. Defense helped with all the turnovers, but Flacco and Heap were our offense. No running game dominating the field this time. Give Flacco some due credit.
Against Pitt, he really made three bad plays. Dumb pick, dropped snap, ran out of bounds (btw, that's the only time I remember him ever doing that, idk why people say he does that all the time because it's simply not true). But, he was also let down by his team. Boldin dropped a touchdown, Housh ofcourse everyone knows, Rice fumbled, and bottom line is Flacco gave us a chance to win. Him and his team blew it.

So 52 quarterback rating is a little harsh in context. I give his playoff performance an Incomplete to be honest. We'll see more of what he's made of this year. He does have to step up, but it's too early to say with any certainty what kind of playoff quarterback he is yet.

[quote name='I AM LEGEND' timestamp='1314010256' post='759633']
Postseason stats overblown?! ...then outta of his 3 playoff appearances you just randomly pick the 2010 playoffs...what about the other 2 years...was there a slight improvement from last years playoffs to the other 2? Sure. But not even close to where we need him to be...nowhere close.
[/quote]

This goes for you as well. But we all know your feelings about Flacco are set in stone anyway.

[POE]

This debate will never end no matter how far Joe takes us, but the truth is that this game happens to be a team game and no player can be successful without the guys around him being reliable in crunch time as well. My opinion is that Flacco has shown a lot of great moments and a lot of bone head moments as well in his short career so far but has shown a lot of growth each year he plays and i don't expect anything less this season regardless of his new weapons. I feel with a little better protection in the playoffs the past few years, a few more catches that were dropped and a little different direction in the game plan and play calling he wouldn't be catching a lot of the negativity he does today. Don't get me wrong he has his flaws and I'm not trying to bail him out or take up for him but the fact remains that this game is a team game and he has been let down by his guys when the pressure is on than he has let them down.

[codizzle]

[quote name='3-4ravdef509' timestamp='1314013823' post='759646']


See....you view that as a black and white judgement of his performance in the playoffs (or at least you seem to be)...but that simply doesn't paint an acurate picture of Joe.

Let's start in his rookie year. Two games, no picks and one crucial touchdown against the Titans. Did he win those games for us? No. But without him, we probably don't get to the playoffs, and the Titans would have easily won without that touchdown to Mason. And Flacco's pass to Heap was crucial to setting up a game winning field goal if i remember correctly. Against Pitt, well I can't judge him too harshly. We played close, but in the end that game was too big for any rookie in his position. Also remember we had virtually no offensive weapons aside from Heap and Mason. All in all, I think he did better than most rookies would in his position. 1Td and 3Int looks bad from the get go, but in context all those picks came from a rookie qb trying to make a comeback against the league's best defense.

2009, come on now. The dude shouldn't have been playing. He was obviously injured and couldn't throw the ball comfortably. I have a hard time making serious evaluations about those two games. Except that we had zero faith in Troy Smith if we played an injured Flacco over him. No tds, 3 more picks. But from a guy with a bruised and swollen leg with still no one to throw to.

Last year. He started slow but played great against KC. Defense helped with all the turnovers, but Flacco and Heap were our offense. No running game dominating the field this time. Give Flacco some due credit.
Against Pitt, he really made three bad plays. Dumb pick, dropped snap, ran out of bounds (btw, that's the only time I remember him ever doing that, idk why people say he does that all the time because it's simply not true). But, he was also let down by his team. Boldin dropped a touchdown, Housh ofcourse everyone knows, Rice fumbled, and bottom line is Flacco gave us a chance to win. Him and his team blew it.

So 52 quarterback rating is a little harsh in context. I give his playoff performance an Incomplete to be honest. We'll see more of what he's made of this year. He does have to step up, but it's too early to say with any certainty what kind of playoff quarterback he is yet.



This goes for you as well. But we all know your feelings about Flacco are set in stone anyway.
[/quote]
beast of a post.. Well done sir

[PWNEDbyDEANO]

[quote name='I AM LEGEND' timestamp='1314010256' post='759633']
Postseason stats overblown?! ...then outta of his 3 playoff appearances you just randomly pick the 2010 playoffs...what about the other 2 years...was there a slight improvement from last years playoffs to the other 2? Sure. But not even close to where we need him to be...nowhere close.
[/quote]

I didn't "randomly" pick the 2010 playoffs, I picked them because they are the most recent and are therefore the best representative of his current level of ability.

Also, his postseason improvement hasn't been "slight" as you called it. Excluding the 2010 playoffs, he has 1 TD to 6 INTs. Include the 2010 playoffs and he has 4 TDs to 7 picks. Much better, no?

Not even close to where we need him to be? So you don't think we'd have won the divisional game if Rice hadn't fumbled for the only time in the entire season or Birk snapped into his leg or two of our best receivers dropping crucial passes (thrown well, I may add) or our defense giving up a 3rd and 19 for 58 yards?

Flacco gets too much heat for our playoff shortcomings... plain and simple. He isn't perfect, but he gives us a better chance to win than most other QBs out there.

[callahan09]

[quote name='Militant X 1' timestamp='1313990058' post='759568']
to me...it's not that Flacco is a "blank slate" and i am projecting on him what "I" want him to be. game film don't lie! Flacco has look good at times and he has looked down right horrible and "rookie-ish" (after 4 seasons as the starter) at times! it is what it is!

i did like portions of that blog though. [img]http://content.boards.baltimoreravens.com//public/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.png[/img]

~Mili
[/quote]

Well I don't think it's fair (or accurate) to say he looks rookie-ish after 4 seasons as the starter. He hasn't even started his 4th season yet, it's still the pre-season. I also don't think it's even fair to say he's looked rookie-ish in this pre-season. It's the pre-season and he's got almost entirely a new roster of weapons to learn to work with and it's following a lock-out where there hadn't been any official practices or team meetings for several months, and he hasn't even been that bad in the pre-season. He has had a lot of great awareness and mobility and made some good passes and some bad passes, overall I think he's played about as expected for a 4th year guy with an arsenal of almost entirely new weapons following an unusual off-season. Is there much precedent to go on for a situation like that? Not really, but I think it's absolutely to be expected and normal what we're seeing from him in this situation, and not "rookie-ish." Hell, I think Matt Ryan has performed worse than Flacco in the pre-season so far, but nobody is complaining about him. In his last game, he had a lot of really awful passes as well and his only great pass was actually only like a 6-yarder that his receiver managed to turn into something special after the catch.

[joemak]

Colt McCoy is looking 20x better than Flacco, in preseason. But is Colt better than Flacco? No. Not by a long shot. Its preseason. Hes taken us to the playoffs every year hes been in the league. No other current QB has done that, besides Sanchez.

[scrock]

I think Joe is going to be an elite QB in this league, he's well on his way to doing so...he said it earlier this preseason, at the end of the year there is 1 great QB and 31 other no so great QBs

3 str8 years in the playoffs, 1 AFC Championship appearance his rookie year, 4-3 playoff record all on the road

One of these days we'll get a home playoff game..and we'll be on to the SB

[scrock]

[quote name='joemak' timestamp='1314024018' post='759716']
Colt McCoy is looking 20x better than Flacco, in preseason. But is Colt better than Flacco? No. Not by a long shot. Its preseason. Hes taken us to the playoffs every year hes been in the league. No other current QB has done that, besides Sanchez.
[/quote]

yeah but Sanchez hasnt done it for 3 years...only 2, and am i the only one who doesnt see Sanchez as being as good? i mean he's not even very accurate, still throws a lot of balls that can be picked off

[T-ray]

[quote name='Moderator 2' timestamp='1313995336' post='759593']
In a team of HUGE personalities aka Sugg. Ray Lewis. Before this year Mason and Heap, LeRon McClain its easy for a quiet guy like Joe to get lost so he is aloof, doesn't care--I think he will emerge more this year and [u][b]I would not trade him for anyone else.[/b][/u]
[/quote]

I'm about to get burnt here, but you have to admit; you would trade him for Rodgers in a heart beat lol.

[FerrariFan87]

I think that the vast majority of the Flacco bashing stems from his less than stellar stats in the playoffs and the fact that he hasn't beaten the Steelers when Big Ben is at the helm. If Flacco wins on September 11, it will quiet a lot of his doubters for a time.

[Mick0311]

[quote name='PWNEDbyDEANO' timestamp='1314021999' post='759702']

I didn't "randomly" pick the 2010 playoffs, I picked them because they are the most recent and are therefore the best representative of his current level of ability.

Also, his postseason improvement hasn't been "slight" as you called it. Excluding the 2010 playoffs, he has 1 TD to 6 INTs. Include the 2010 playoffs and he has 4 TDs to 7 picks. Much better, no?

Not even close to where we need him to be? So you don't think we'd have won the divisional game if Rice hadn't fumbled for the only time in the entire season or Birk snapped into his leg or two of our best receivers dropping crucial passes (thrown well, I may add) or our defense giving up a 3rd and 19 for 58 yards?

Flacco gets too much heat for our playoff shortcomings... plain and simple. He isn't perfect, but he gives us a better chance to win than most other QBs out there.
[/quote]


I agree. I think the thing that gets most people is the occasional things he does that make you wonder. Look, I think he is the best we have had,and I do believe he will be great for us. But, he does silly things sometimes. He seems to take the ugliest of sacks at times, that result is bad fumbles. I can't remember once where he saw a flag thrown for defensive offsides and took a shot down field. Maybe he has, but I know I've seen it not happen many times. When he gets pressured, he makes silly mistakes, which he has gotten better at though. Not seeing obvious pressure from the edges. Handing off to Rice on a run to the right when Troy P. is lined up at the line of scrimmage. If he is there, he is coming. Little things that make a huge difference. Look, I am firmly in the Flacco camp. I think this will be a true breakout year for him, but I completely understand the reasoned concerns. Note I said reasoned, not some of the silly criticisms we see here sometimes.

On a side note, I am a bit nervous about the Squeelers game. We seem to be a jittery team at the start of games, and many times Joe really gets rolling toward the middle of the second quarter or so. I really hope we start off quick against them like we did in the playoffs last year. I just get worried since we seem to be affected by the "nerves" more often than not. But, I'm probably just being a fan, and worrying too much. Anyway, sorry about the rant. Coffee is a helluva drug... /rickJames

[T-ray]

[quote name='scrock' timestamp='1314029439' post='759783']

yeah but Sanchez hasnt done it for 3 years...only 2, and am i the only one who doesnt see Sanchez as being as good? i mean he's not even very accurate, still throws a lot of balls that can be picked off
[/quote]

Sanchez is horrible. He has nothing to drool about on him at all, except being the Media Golden Boy since he plays for New York. Everything that the media says about Flacco riding his D is not true about Flacco, but instead Sanchez. He has never led his team to the playoffs before; its always been the D, the run game, and lucky wins such as beating the Colts SECOND string in his first year of playing.

[Finally]

The blank stares fuel the fire but the reality is the reason why fans argue over their QB is because that is what fans do. Especially for young guys who some fans expect to be elite from day 1. A guy like Flacco is going to have it especially rough because of his early success.

Evaluating a qb is hard because there are so many factors to their successes and failures it is hard to point your finger and say "there is the problem" or "that is why he is so great." Is it the coaching? Is it the playcalling? Is it a protection problem? Does he need better receivers? Is it that he just needs more time to develop? Is it some of all of the above?

I have only ever seen one red flag with regard to Flacco. It was the time Boldin (I think it was Boldin) was throwing a tirade on the sideline and Flacco was just sitting there staring into oblivion. He didn't even seem to acknowledge what was going on around him. At that moment he didn't seem like the leader of the offense. Of course I have no idea what goes on in the locker room or in the huddle so that was an opinion based on a few moments of sideline video which makes the opinion pretty worthless.

[JohnJohnson]

[quote name='Finally' timestamp='1314031396' post='759806']
The blank stares fuel the fire but the reality is the reason why fans argue over their QB is because that is what fans do. Especially for young guys who some fans expect to be elite from day 1. A guy like Flacco is going to have it especially rough because of his early success.

Evaluating a qb is hard because there are so many factors to their successes and failures it is hard to point your finger and say "there is the problem" or "that is why he is so great." Is it the coaching? Is it the playcalling? Is it a protection problem? Does he need better receivers? Is it that he just needs more time to develop? Is it some of all of the above?

I have only ever seen one red flag with regard to Flacco. It was the time Boldin (I think it was Boldin) was throwing a tirade on the sideline and Flacco was just sitting there staring into oblivion. He didn't even seem to acknowledge what was going on around him. At that moment he didn't seem like the leader of the offense. Of course I have no idea what goes on in the locker room or in the huddle so that was an opinion based on a few moments of sideline video which makes the opinion pretty worthless.
[/quote]

I think that was the Falcons game, and Flacco then stormed back with 3 TDs in one half to give us the lead.

[JohnJohnson]

[quote name='T-ray' timestamp='1314030200' post='759791']

I'm about to get burnt here, but you have to admit; you would trade him for Rodgers in a heart beat lol.
[/quote]

Obviously. Rodgers looks like the best QB in the league right now, to me. He doesn't really have a weakness; he's mobile, accurate, fast, reads defenses well.