Did We Upgrade?

[MagicianCamille]

[quote name='1/28/01' timestamp='1313545841' post='752970']
Not sure what you're doing here....making a joke or just showing complete ignorance to viewing talent. Please enlighten us and explain your findings.
[/quote]

I'm sorry? Who on the list do you disagree with?

[1/28/01]

[quote name='MagicianCamille' timestamp='1313546362' post='752984']
I'm sorry? Who on the list do you disagree with?
[/quote]
I am just trying to clarify that you think every person in their respective "competition" listed by the OP goes to the 2010 player?

[1/28/01]

[b]Ricky Williams[/b] vs. Willis McGahee - relatively the same player at 1/5the the cost

[b]Bernard Pollard[/b] vs. Dawan Landry - both are lacking coverage, but Pollard trumps Landry in run protection

[b]Vonta Leach[/b] vs. LeRon McClain - HA, no question when looking at both as FULLBACKS

[b]Lee Evans[/b] vs Derrick Mason - a perfect compliment to Boldin, so therefore better for the team overall

[b]Torrey Smith[/b] vs Donte Stallworth - could go either way, but seeing how Donte was hurt and never played much (partly due to Cam), this goes to newbie

[b]Tandon Doss[/b] vs [b]TJ Houshmanzadeh[/b] - tie...cant really find a compelling argument for either at this point.

Dennis Pitta vs [b]Todd Heap[/b] - not a homer. Heap was/is a GREAT TE

Ed Dickson vs [b]Todd Heap[/b] - see above

[b]Chris Carr[/b] vs [b]Josh Wilson[/b] - Carr played rough preseason game 1, but I still believe he is a solid dime/nickel and I, personally, wouldnt want Wilsin on the edge. This comparison was tough for me, since I think we're comparing different position CB's here.

[Guest ArmyRaven52]

[quote name='1/28/01' timestamp='1313546831' post='752994']
[b]Ricky Williams[/b] vs. Willis McGahee - relatively the same player at 1/5the the cost

[b]Bernard Pollard[/b] vs. Dawan Landry - both are lacking coverage, but Pollard trumps Landry in run protection

[b]Vonta Leach[/b] vs. LeRon McClain - HA, no question when looking at both as FULLBACKS

[b]Lee Evans[/b] vs Derrick Mason - a perfect compliment to Boldin, so therefore better for the team overall

[b]Torrey Smith[/b] vs Donte Stallworth - could go either way, but seeing how Donte was hurt and never played much (partly due to Cam), this goes to newbie

[b]Tandon Doss[/b] vs [b]TJ Houshmanzadeh[/b] - tie...cant really find a compelling argument for either at this point.

Dennis Pitta vs [b]Todd Heap[/b] - not a homer. Heap was/is a GREAT TE

Ed Dickson vs [b]Todd Heap[/b] - see above

[b]Chris Carr[/b] vs [b]Josh Wilson[/b] - Carr played rough preseason game 1, but I still believe he is a solid dime/nickel and I, personally, wouldnt want Wilsin on the edge. This comparison was tough for me, since I think we're comparing different position CB's here.
[/quote]

Almost agree with every thing except dickson vs heap. In heaps hey day only one man could touch him and he played in KC, but if we are going off of last year in comparison to how dickson plays this year I will take Dickson.

And Ricky williams not only is he cheaper but as far as power running goes he is way scarier than Mcgahee.

[rmw10]

I don't understand why we're comparing Chris Carr vs. Josh Wilson as an upgrade. Chris Carr was on the team last year, therefore, he isn't being brought in to replace anyone. I feel like the real question here would be Jimmy Smith vs. Josh Wilson or even Domonique Foxworth vs. Josh Wilson. If you look at it in the grand scheme of things, we technically lost Fabian Washington and Josh Wilson, and gained Jimmy Smith and Domonique Foxworth. I think the latter wins.

As for the others:

Ricky over Willis. Same player essentially, except one is much cheaper
Pollard over Landry. Pollard has an explosiveness that I didn't see out of Landry
Leach over McClain. Clear upgrade in blocking
Evans over Mason. Adds a compliment to Boldin rather than having the same player, but older, in Mason
Smith over Stallworth. For the simple fact that Torrey will be utilized more
Housh = Doss. Doss has sure hands, while Housh has more experience, balances out in my opinion
Pitta/Dickson over Heap. Don't want to look at this individually, Pitta and Dickson combo creates for mismatches
Foxworth/Jimmy over Fabian/Wilson. Jimmy will be great this year with his aggressiveness, DF over Fab is a no-brainer

[1/28/01]

[quote name='rmw10' timestamp='1313547462' post='753006']
I don't understand why we're comparing Chris Carr vs. Josh Wilson as an upgrade. Chris Carr was on the team last year, therefore, he isn't being brought in to replace anyone. I feel like the real question here would be Jimmy Smith vs. Josh Wilson or even Domonique Foxworth vs. Josh Wilson. If you look at it in the grand scheme of things, we technically lost Fabian Washington and Josh Wilson, and gained Jimmy Smith and Domonique Foxworth. I think the latter wins.

As for the others:

Ricky over Willis. Same player essentially, except one is much cheaper
Pollard over Landry. Pollard has an explosiveness that I didn't see out of Landry
Leach over McClain. Clear upgrade in blocking
Evans over Mason. Adds a compliment to Boldin rather than having the same player, but older, in Mason
Smith over Stallworth. For the simple fact that Torrey will be utilized more
Housh = Doss. Doss has sure hands, while Housh has more experience, balances out in my opinion
Pitta/Dickson over Heap. Don't want to look at this individually, Pitta and Dickson combo creates for mismatches
Foxworth/Jimmy over Fabian/Wilson. Jimmy will be great this year with his aggressiveness, DF over Fab is a no-brainer
[/quote]
Man, that looks eerily familiar

[BaltimoreBean]

[quote name='rmw10' timestamp='1313547462' post='753006']
I don't understand why we're comparing Chris Carr vs. Josh Wilson as an upgrade. Chris Carr was on the team last year, therefore, he isn't being brought in to replace anyone. I feel like the real question here would be Jimmy Smith vs. Josh Wilson or even Domonique Foxworth vs. Josh Wilson. If you look at it in the grand scheme of things, we technically lost Fabian Washington and Josh Wilson, and gained Jimmy Smith and Domonique Foxworth. I think the latter wins.

As for the others:

Ricky over Willis. Same player essentially, except one is much cheaper
Pollard over Landry. Pollard has an explosiveness that I didn't see out of Landry
Leach over McClain. Clear upgrade in blocking
Evans over Mason. Adds a compliment to Boldin rather than having the same player, but older, in Mason
Smith over Stallworth. For the simple fact that Torrey will be utilized more
Housh = Doss. Doss has sure hands, while Housh has more experience, balances out in my opinion
Pitta/Dickson over Heap. Don't want to look at this individually, Pitta and Dickson combo creates for mismatches
Foxworth/Jimmy over Fabian/Wilson. Jimmy will be great this year with his aggressiveness, DF over Fab is a no-brainer
[/quote]


I agree with you on Pollard. I feel that Dawan was still solid, but never played the same after that horrible injury. I'm excited to see how he performs in the Raven's D with Reed compared to the Texans.

[rmw10]

[quote name='1/28/01' timestamp='1313547568' post='753009']
Man, that looks eerily familiar
[/quote]

Haha, just makes sense to me. I get that it was either Carr or Wilson coming back, but I don't see how they can be upgrades to one another when they were both on the team last year.

Carr = Carr

Wilson leaving = Jimmy Smith coming to some extent

[1/28/01]

[quote name='rmw10' timestamp='1313547915' post='753018']
Haha, just makes sense to me. I get that it was either Carr or Wilson coming back, but I don't see how they can be upgrades to one another when they were both on the team last year.

Carr = Carr

Wilson leaving = Jimmy Smith coming to some extent
[/quote]
I know....just messing with ya. I agree with you!

[gabefergy]

[quote name='1/28/01' timestamp='1313545321' post='752959']
Complete side note, but if you're on a mobile device, highly recommend using the mobile skin by scrolling to the bottom and shoocing "IP. Board Mobile". Loads WAY faster and thats all I use, even when on a PC.
[/quote]
Thanks, I usually use the mobile skin but I came out of it and couldn't figure out how to go back. It turns out that it wasn't very hard haha.

[MagicianCamille]

[quote name='1/28/01' timestamp='1313546831' post='752994']
[b]Ricky Williams[/b] vs. Willis McGahee - relatively the same player at 1/5the the cost

[b]Bernard Pollard[/b] vs. Dawan Landry - both are lacking coverage, but Pollard trumps Landry in run protection

[b]Vonta Leach[/b] vs. LeRon McClain - HA, no question when looking at both as FULLBACKS

[b]Lee Evans[/b] vs Derrick Mason - a perfect compliment to Boldin, so therefore better for the team overall

[b]Torrey Smith[/b] vs Donte Stallworth - could go either way, but seeing how Donte was hurt and never played much (partly due to Cam), this goes to newbie

[b]Tandon Doss[/b] vs [b]TJ Houshmanzadeh[/b] - tie...cant really find a compelling argument for either at this point.

Dennis Pitta vs [b]Todd Heap[/b] - not a homer. Heap was/is a GREAT TE

Ed Dickson vs [b]Todd Heap[/b] - see above

[b]Chris Carr[/b] vs [b]Josh Wilson[/b] - Carr played rough preseason game 1, but I still believe he is a solid dime/nickel and I, personally, wouldnt want Wilsin on the edge. This comparison was tough for me, since I think we're comparing different position CB's here.
[/quote]

I'll concede Leach over McClain but I don't see how you could go with Smith over Stallworth, or Doss over Houshmanzadeh without really drinking the kool-aid.

I'd go with McGahee over Ricky Williams because McGahee produced for us. Ricky Williams is more known for drug problems than having any recent success. Williams is probably the better deal financially, but that's not really the discussion here.

I don't see how you could knock Landry either, he was a strong, physical safety, and did make some plays in coverage too.

As for Evans over Mason, sorry but LOL. Mason has the chemistry with Flacco, was Mr. Reliable on third downs, and has been really successful here since he's been here. No way would I consider Evans an upgrade.

Wilson was far better than Carr, too. Granted Carr began to improve, but no way is he an upgrade over Wilson. So, as to the question, no we didn't upgrade our roster. Our receiving corps is WORSE. Our secondary is WORSE. Our offensive line is WORSE. Where did we upgrade?

[rmw10]

Already went through some, but I'm bored so I'm going to tackle each position.

QB = upgrade: Flacco's growing as a QB already, and I feel like he's close to being elite. We could probably use a backup, but there's no one I see as worthy on the market right now.

RB = upgrade: Ricky Williams is a more powerful McGahee, albeit older. Saw some nice flashes from 3rd and 4th strings as well.

FB = upgrade: Leach is the best FB in the league when it comes to blocking. No further comments.

WR = upgrade: We finally have complimentary receivers. No sense in having 3 of the same reciever. Evans speed will open up the field for Boldin and hopefully Doss. Same can be said for Torrey Smith if his game is on the level I've heard

TE = upgrade: Dickson and Pitta look great. While Heap was great, he had trouble staying on the field. Two TE sets with Dickson and Pitta will be terrifying for opposing defenses with LBs most likely covering them.

C = downgrade(possibly): Birk is returning, but injured. Another year = more wear. Could be better after surgery. Time will tell.

LT = upgrade: Oher working harder and getting better. He'll improve compared to last year.

LG = same: Grubbs is Grubbs.

RG = upgrade: As long as Yanda is there, it's an upgrade over Chester no doubt.

RT = downgrade: Yanda was good there, but I'd rather have him at RG. Reid looks good, but needs time.

DE = upgrade: More time with Redding in the 3-4 and Art Jones looks really good there. Ngata got faster and stronger.

DT = upgrade: Terrence Cody should knock some heads. Gregg was getting old and wearing down. Rotating with McKinney adds some serious push on that line.

ILB = upgrade: Ray has slowed down a bit, but still a force. McClain and Ellerbe both have another year under their belts and have reportedly looked really good in camp.

OLB = upgrade: Suggs seems to be focused after his down year a couple years ago. Adding Kruger and Kindle to the pass rush is huge for the defense. JJ seems to be healthier this year.

CB = upgrade: Jimmy may not be shut-down this year, but he'll be good. Carr is Carr, despite his struggles against the Eagles. Foxworth should be reliable if he stays on the second team like he is now. Cary Williams has come on strong and finally got that recognition. Webb is 100% after being down for the first half of last season. Chykie Brown also looks to have potential although he won't see much time

FS = upgrade: Ed is 100% healthy and stronger

SS = upgrade: Like stated earlier, Pollard has an explosiveness to him. Landry wasn't the same after his injury.

K = same: Expect the same from Cundiff. More touchbacks with the new rule. Might miss 3-5 field goals, although he's nailing some long ones in camp.

P = same: Koch is still going to be just as consistent as always,

[Moderator 2]

[quote name='rmw10' timestamp='1313547462' post='753006']
I don't understand why we're comparing Chris Carr vs. Josh Wilson as an upgrade. Chris Carr was on the team last year, therefore, he isn't being brought in to replace anyone. I feel like the real question here would be Jimmy Smith vs. Josh Wilson or even Domonique Foxworth vs. Josh Wilson. If you look at it in the grand scheme of things, we technically lost Fabian Washington and Josh Wilson, and gained Jimmy Smith and Domonique Foxworth. I think the latter wins.

As for the others:

Ricky over Willis. Same player essentially, except one is much cheaper
Pollard over Landry. Pollard has an explosiveness that I didn't see out of Landry
Leach over McClain. Clear upgrade in blocking
Evans over Mason. Adds a compliment to Boldin rather than having the same player, but older, in Mason
Smith over Stallworth. For the simple fact that Torrey will be utilized more
Housh = Doss. Doss has sure hands, while Housh has more experience, balances out in my opinion
Pitta/Dickson over Heap. Don't want to look at this individually, Pitta and Dickson combo creates for mismatches
Foxworth/Jimmy over Fabian/Wilson. Jimmy will be great this year with his aggressiveness, DF over Fab is a no-brainer
[/quote]
Nice post and I agree

[Guest ArmyRaven52]

[quote name='MagicianCamille' timestamp='1313548395' post='753029']
I'll concede Leach over McClain but I don't see how you could go with Smith over Stallworth, or Doss over Houshmanzadeh without really drinking the kool-aid.

[b]I'd go with McGahee over Ricky Williams because McGahee produced for us. Ricky Williams is more known for drug problems than having any recent success. Williams is probably the better deal financially, but that's not really the discussion here.[/b]

I don't see how you could knock Landry either, he was a strong, physical safety, and did make some plays in coverage too.

[b]As for Evans over Mason, sorry but LOL. Mason has the chemistry with Flacco, was Mr. Reliable on third downs, and has been really successful here since he's been here. No way would I consider Evans an upgrade.[/b]

Wilson was far better than Carr, too. Granted Carr began to improve, but no way is he an upgrade over Wilson. So, as to the question, no we didn't upgrade our roster. Our receiving corps is WORSE. Our secondary is WORSE. Our offensive line is WORSE. Where did we upgrade?
[/quote]

Really because Williams had a 1000 yard season 2 years ago, that is more than willis last 2 COMBINED so not sure there is any validity in that statement at all, so is it his weed issues you dont like or what ?

And Evans>Mason How many more productive seasons would mase have given 1 MAYBE 2 compared to the years Evans have left no thanks I will take lee evans, that fact that he is also a deep threat is just icing on the cake.

WE have the same line as last year, not sure how it is worse ?

Our Secondary is actually better just because we lose 1 guy we havent replaced does not mean it is worse, Ill take The Jimmy over Wilson all day everyday.

And again how is our receiving corps worse ?

[1/28/01]

[quote name='MagicianCamille' timestamp='1313548395' post='753029']
I'll concede Leach over McClain but I don't see how you could go with Smith over Stallworth, or Doss over Houshmanzadeh without really drinking the kool-aid.

I'd go with McGahee over Ricky Williams because McGahee produced for us. Ricky Williams is more known for drug problems than having any recent success. Williams is probably the better deal financially, but that's not really the discussion here.

I don't see how you could knock Landry either, he was a strong, physical safety, and did make some plays in coverage too.

As for Evans over Mason, sorry but LOL. Mason has the chemistry with Flacco, was Mr. Reliable on third downs, and has been really successful here since he's been here. No way would I consider Evans an upgrade.

Wilson was far better than Carr, too. Granted Carr began to improve, but no way is he an upgrade over Wilson. So, as to the question, no we didn't upgrade our roster.
[/quote]
You apparently chose to read what you wanted to.

#1 - I did not give the nod to Doss or Housh
#2 - Its not over the top ("drinking the kool-aid") to think that a 2nd round draftee is an upgrade over a guy that was not used.
#3 - Go take a look see at what Ricky W. has done in the last few years (primarily YPC since we comparing the "bruiser" back) and you'll see that your argument is flawed in many ways. Shoot, Williams is even the better receiving back than McGahee. And this is no slight to Mcgahee, but they are very comparable (nod to Williams, IMO), but the contract savings is a HUGE winner for RW. It is not "probably" a good financial move as you stated, it was a slam dunk move!
#4 - As others have said, Landry is not the same bruiser of a SS that he once was. Pollard is and is equal to him in coverage, so there is a clear winner there as well.
#5 - The LOL's are cute, but they are kind of pointless (and over used IMO), and Mason was a warrior, no doubt! But we needed to change the WR corps desperately. Great move, both financially and strategically, by the FO. I will say I was originally worried when he was cut, but now the better possession WR of the two (Boldin) will get more looks and we now also have a proven "burner" as his compliment!
#6 - Didnt give a clear "winner" when comparing Carr and Wilson, as I see that comparison moot. Doesnt make sense to me...

[BaltimoreBean]

[quote name='MagicianCamille' timestamp='1313548395' post='753029']
I'll concede Leach over McClain but I don't see how you could go with Smith over Stallworth, or Doss over Houshmanzadeh without really drinking the kool-aid.

I'd go with McGahee over Ricky Williams because McGahee produced for us. Ricky Williams is more known for drug problems than having any recent success. Williams is probably the better deal financially, but that's not really the discussion here.

I don't see how you could knock Landry either, he was a strong, physical safety, and did make some plays in coverage too.

As for Evans over Mason, sorry but LOL. Mason has the chemistry with Flacco, was Mr. Reliable on third downs, and has been really successful here since he's been here. No way would I consider Evans an upgrade.

Wilson was far better than Carr, too. Granted Carr began to improve, but no way is he an upgrade over Wilson. So, as to the question, no we didn't upgrade our roster. Our receiving corps is WORSE. Our secondary is WORSE. Our offensive line is WORSE. Where did we upgrade?
[/quote]

Can't afford to keep the same team intact year after year. There was a salary cap and you can't have pro bowlers at every position.

I don't know how you can say our receiving corps is worse. Did you see how slow our receivers were last year? One of the possession receivers had to go, and it wasn't going to be Boldin over 37 yr old Mason.

[Juviebest]

If we are talking CB's...I want to add Cary Williams in there. No suspension this year and a full year under his belt as a Raven. He's been running first team the last 3 practices so that's saying something (and yes I still think he would be running with the first even if Webb & Carr were both practicing).

Jimmy, Foxy, Cary > Wilson, Fabian

[Ronthekeys]

For everyone that picks Stallworth over Torrey please explain what the hell he did for us last year? M I missing something? Or is it something yall seen that I missed cause I watched every game last year. Please explain..

[BaltimoreBean]

[quote name='Ronthekeys' timestamp='1313550182' post='753070']
For everyone that picks Stallworth over Torrey please explain what the hell he did for us last year? M I missing something? Or is it something yall seen that I missed cause I watched every game last year. Please explain..
[/quote]

I agree as far as what he's done for the Ravens. I think people were going with NFL experience on that one.

[The King]

Lee Evans is an upgrade over Mason because Evans can run. I won't say Evans is a better receiver than Mason; I don't believe that is true. However, I do think that Evans is better for us simply because he is not an older, less powerful version of Anquan Boldin. He is a great route runner and a smart veteran player, but he just cannot run anymore. He's a possession receiver, which is not what the receiving corps needs.

Ricky Williams cheaper contract allowed us to upgrade to Vonta Leach and bring in Lee Evans. Had we kept Willis, Heap, and Gregg then we wouldn't have had the money to make those moves or retain Marshal Yanda. Same with letting Wilson walk while we brought back Carr.

[ellicottraven]

When you put it that way it is hard to believe we didn't upgrade but, the proof is always in the pudding. We have to wait to find out for real.