Demetrius Williams And Mark Clayton Vs. Housh And Stalls

[flynismo]

[quote name='1/28/01' timestamp='1310516736' post='706706']<br />Fixed <img src='http://content.boards.baltimoreravens.com/public/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' /><br />[/quote]



my apologies kind sir!


i am no longer laughing, however. Memories of a cold afternoon in New England just resurfaced.

[1/28/01]

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1310518838' post='706720']
my apologies kind sir!


i am no longer laughing, however. Memories of a cold afternoon in New England just resurfaced.
[/quote]
Ha, and the image of my buddy ripping his Clayton jersey off, walking out his front door and throwing it into Harford Rd resurface.....ugh!!

[-Truth-]

A minor note, but with Clayton tearing his patellar tendon 5 minutes into the game, the 6 yards he amassed in that span shouldn't count against his average. He did total exactly 300 yards in 4 full games. It's still significantly less than 100 YPG, so the point still stands.

[Bullrush]

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1310515922' post='706697']
hmm, lets see. 306 yards in 5 games. A little math indicates that is nowhere near 100 yards a game. Try 61 yards a game.[/quote]
Try 4 games. Make it 75 yards per game, add it up, that's 1,200 yards in 16 games? You know what, you're right. I'd rather have Housh. Can't beat THAT logic.

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1310515922' post='706697']And yeah, I think both those trades worked out well. We no longer have to pay dead weight.[/quote]
You sound like somebody trying to convince himself his team made good moves. You should join the Vikings fans that still feel trading Hershel Walker was a good trade.

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1310515922' post='706697']Actually I was laughing at your comment that Clayton was awesome for us.
[/quote]
Should be easy for you to name me multiple guys that made more bigplays for us than he did the final 2 years he was here then. Waiting...

[flynismo]

,[quote name='Bullrush' timestamp='1310544788' post='706875']<br />Somebody should explain to you that Clayton got hurt in the 5th game.<br /><br /><br />In that case we should be releasing every player that's injured.<br /><br />You sound like a bitter fan trying to convince himself his team made good moves. You should join the Seahawks fans that thought trading Josh Wilson for a late round pick was a steal  for them.<br /><br /><br />Should be easy for you to name me multiple guys that made more bigplays for us than he did the final 2 years he was here then.<br />[/quote]


someone should explain to you that 300 / 4 does not equal anything near 100 yards a game.

Sounds to me like you're a jaded Clayton supporter who made excuses for him for 14 out of the 16 games a year that he didn't do crap in. If he was so 'awesome' why did we trade him and a 6th just to get an extra 5th?


And yeah, it is easy to name multiple guys who made more big plays than him. Flacco, Rice, Mason, McGahee. Maybe Heap. That wasn't so hard.,,,,

[Bullrush]

[quote name='1/28/01' timestamp='1310498598' post='706527']
Mr Poll Guy,

Clayton does not have the speed of Stallworth....that is all that I am adding to this thread

Yours truly,

1/28/01
[/quote]
You're right. He's so fast nobody ever saw him on the field.

[Bullrush]

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1310545548' post='706877']
someone should explain to you that 300 / 4 does not equal anything near 100 yards a game.[/quote]
75 is pretty close to 100. Anybody with half a brain in football would be happy to have a receiver that averages 70+ yards per game.

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1310545548' post='706877']Sounds to me like you're a jaded Clayton supporter who made excuses for him for 14 out of the 16 games a year that he didn't do crap in. If he was so 'awesome' why did we trade him and a 6th just to get an extra 5th?[/quote]
Why did we get rid of Barnes? Why are we getting rid of Gaither? Oh right, Ozzie is the GM, he's the wizard, everything he does is genius. I know. I've heard that story many times. I for one can't wait til DeCosta takes over for Ozzie, considering he's the guy that brings all these talented players in.

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1310545548' post='706877']And yeah, it is easy to name multiple guys who made more big plays than him. Flacco, Rice, Mason, McGahee. Maybe Heap. That wasn't so hard.,,,,
[/quote]
You forgot Ed Reed!

Maybe it wasn't obvious enough but I'm talking about receivers obviously.

[flynismo]

[quote name='Bullrush' timestamp='1310547008' post='706883']<br />75 is pretty close to 100. Anybody with half a brain in football would be happy to have a receiver that averages 70+ yards per game.<br /><br /><br />Why did we get rid of Barnes? Why are we getting rid of Gaither? Oh right, Ozzie is the GM, he's the wizard, everything he does is genius. I know. I've heard that story many times. I for one can't wait til DeCosta takes over for Ozzie, considering he's the guy that brings all these talented players in.<br /><br /><br />You forgot Ed Reed!<br /><br />Maybe it wasn't obvious enough but I'm talking about receivers obviously.<br />[/quote]


i haven't heard so many dumb comments packed into one post in a long time.

First you GROSSLY exagerate Clayton's production.

Then you claim we got rid of Gaither, which is not true.

And then, the dumbest comment of all: i'm supposed to name MULTIPLE receiver's who out played Clayton, when Clayton was our number 2 WR. When 70%+ of the time there are two WR on the field, and Clayton was one of them....do you see the problem there chief?


Come back when you've got something worth talking about.

[BloodRaven]

You two are among the best contributors to this forum so theres really no need for the petty squabbling. You've both made good points so just agree to disagree.

[1/28/01]

[quote name='BloodRaven' timestamp='1310551408' post='706888']
You two are among the best contributors to this forum so theres really no need for the petty squabbling. You've both made good points so just agree to disagree.
[/quote]
Sure there is...its the offseason! Carry on, fellas!

[Bullrush]

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1310548353' post='706886']
i haven't heard so many dumb comments packed into one post in a long time.[/quote]
You don't read your own posts, do you?

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1310548353' post='706886']First you GROSSLY exagerate Clayton's production.[/quote]
Those are facts. He did average 75 yards per game with the Rams in 4 games.

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1310548353' post='706886']Then you claim we got rid of Gaither, which is not true.[/quote]
He's a free agent, we're letting him walk. It doesn't take Bill Walsh to figure out that we're not interested in re-signing him. But you wait until it becomes official, that's the straw you're holding on to now.

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1310548353' post='706886']And then, the dumbest comment of all: i'm supposed to name MULTIPLE receiver's who out played Clayton, when Clayton was our number 2 WR. When 70%+ of the time there are two WR on the field, and Clayton was one of them....do you see the problem there chief? [/quote]
Maybe you'll understand it this time. I'm trying again: I said name me multiple receivers that made MORE BIGPLAYS than Clayton did his final 2 seasons. Shouldn't be that hard considering how bad he is.

And secondly I didn't know if you realized this or not but a team usually has at least 5 receivers on their roster. Not 2. And they evaluate their roster after every season, they bring in new players. Clayton was a starter for us for FIVE seasons. I love the argument you use. The guy was a starter for us for 5 seasons, how are the other guys supposed to make more plays? Uh, bingo. Being a starter means that you're better than the rest of the guys. If nobody is able to make more plays or beat him out I guess that means that he was just better. But that's just my logic.

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1310548353' post='706886']Come back when you've got something worth talking about.
[/quote]
Yeah, nice comeback.

[jdynamite]

Personally, I wish we had kept Kelly Washington, he and Flacco had a 3rd down connection at times... I don't think the comparisons are correct because Clayton and Washington were the guys... Demetrius Williams was highly inconsistent and often injured and made a few deep catches.... If we had kept Clayton he could have been a valuable 4th WR

[Guest ArmyRaven52]

[quote name='Bullrush' timestamp='1310564914' post='706926']
You don't read your own posts, do you?


Those are facts. He did average 75 yards per game with the Rams in 4 games.


He's a free agent, we're letting him walk. It doesn't take Bill Walsh to figure out that we're not interested in re-signing him. But you wait until it becomes official, that's the straw you're holding on to now.


Maybe you'll understand it this time. I'm trying again: [b]I said name me multiple receivers that made MORE BIGPLAYS than Clayton did his final 2 seasons.[/b] Shouldn't be that hard considering how bad he is.

And secondly I didn't know if you realized this or not but a team usually has at least 5 receivers on their roster. Not 2. And they evaluate their roster after every season, they bring in new players. Clayton was a starter for us for FIVE seasons. I love the argument you use. The guy was a starter for us for 5 seasons, how are the other guys supposed to make more plays? Uh, bingo. Being a starter means that you're better than the rest of the guys. If nobody is able to make more plays or beat him out I guess that means that he was just better. But that's just my logic.


Yeah, nice comeback.
[/quote]


Mason and Heap.

[flynismo]

[quote name='Bullrush' timestamp='1310564914' post='706926']
<br />You don't read your own posts, do you?<br /><br /><br />Those are facts. He did average 75 yards per game with the Rams in 4 games. <br /><br /><br />He's a free agent, we're letting him walk. It doesn't take Bill Walsh to figure out that we're not interested in re-signing him. But you wait until it becomes official, that's the straw you're holding on to now.
[/quote]


dont back pedal now. You made the claim that he was averaging around 100 yards a game. You were proven false. As per the norm for Clayton lackeys, you exaggerate his contributions, and completely ignore the facts.
As you would say - anyone with half a brain can see there is a huge difference between 75/yards a game and 100/yards a game. Thats the difference between having a solid 1100 yards season, which is the actual pace Clayton was on, and putting up a monster 1600 yard season...which is your exaggerated version of what Clayton did.


And of course, no one should have to explain to an intelligent guy like you that making any kind of assumptions over a 4 game span is stupid, right? Right? I mean, especially given Clayton's long history of disappearing for months at a time.


i will ask you once again. If Clayton was so 'awesome', why did we practically give him away?

[quote]
Maybe you'll understand it this time. I'm trying again: I said name me multiple receivers that made MORE BIGPLAYS than Clayton did his final 2 seasons. Shouldn't be that hard considering how bad he is.<br /><br />And secondly I didn't know if you realized this or not but a team usually has at least 5 receivers on their roster. Not 2. And they evaluate their roster after every season, they bring in new players. Clayton was a starter for us for FIVE seasons. I love the argument you use. The guy was a starter for us for 5 seasons, how are the other guys supposed to make more plays? Uh, bingo. Being a starter means that you're better than the rest of the guys. If nobody is able to make more plays or beat him out I guess that means that he was just better. But that's just my logic.
[/quote]


more back pedaling huh? shoulda been a CB. Okay, let's play your game. We'll ignore the fact that Clayton was a bust, we'll also ignore the facts that he could not beat out a 30-something 5'10" possession reciever for the #1 spot or that he failed in the exact same offense that several others succeeded in. You pride yourself in your logic, so start using it. I'm sure you can agree Mason is one guy who did more than Clayton. But now you want at least one more reciever who made more plays than Clayton his last two years here. So this is where your logic needs to come in to play. I'd say Clayton made the second most plays in those two years. So what does that prove exactly? What does being the second best wide reciever on a weak WR corp prove? He outplayed Marcus Smith and Justin Harper, and guys like that...so what? Does that make you proud? Does that make Clayton good? Does that justify Clayton not doing jack in 13 games out of each season? Do you want me to break out his stats for you and show you how absurd your 'logic' is? Bottom line is, Clayton was a bust. Just because he beat out a bunch of scrubs to hold on to the #2 spot does not make him anything more than a bust.

tell you what. Why don't you prove to me why Clayton is so 'awesome'? Can you do that chief? That is, without EXAGGERATING his performance?




[quote]Yeah, nice comeback.<br />[/quote]


how old are you?

[flynismo]

[quote name='ArmyRaven52' timestamp='1310575532' post='707017']
Mason and Heap.
[/quote]

I already mentioned Mason and Heap, as well as others at other positions. But apparently, only WR are allowed, so we aren't allowed to include Heap, since he is a big bad TE.

[Guest ArmyRaven52]

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1310576268' post='707024']
I already mentioned Mason and Heap, as well as others at other positions. But apparently, only WR are allowed, so we aren't allowed to include Heap, since he is a big bad TE.
[/quote]

Well if we are going by that logic,

Then Clayton is one of the best Wr's in the league that is 29 years old, 5'10", and 190 pounds.

How about we just put so many restrictions on it to where he is the best in the league with a very specific set of criteria.

[flynismo]

[quote name='jdynamite' timestamp='1310574347' post='707007']
Personally, I wish we had kept Kelly Washington, he and Flacco had a 3rd down connection at times... I don't think the comparisons are correct because Clayton and Washington were the guys... Demetrius Williams was highly inconsistent and often injured and made a few deep catches.... If we had kept Clayton he could have been a valuable 4th WR
[/quote]

Yep, the same Kelley Washington that half of us practically demanded to start over Clayton, because he was outplaying Clayton when he was given a chance on the field.

But apparently, some of us cant get it through our meaty heads that Clayton's draft status is the ONLY reason he collected a check, and was given a starting position on this team.

[flynismo]

[quote name='ArmyRaven52' timestamp='1310576605' post='707029']
Well if we are going by that logic,

Then Clayton is one of the best Wr's in the league that is 29 years old, 5'10", and 190 pounds.

[b]How about we just put so many restrictions on it to where he is the best in the league with a very specific set of criteria.[/b]
[/quote]


He already did that. I have to give him MULTIPLE wide recievers on his team (not TE, not RB, not QB) who made more 'big plays' than Clayton, not outplayed Clayton.

And I'm going to assume that the definition of "big play" is going to be flexible as well.

Even with a stacked deck, Clayton's wall will crumble. That's what happens when you support losers.

[Guest ArmyRaven52]

[quote name='Bullrush' timestamp='1310544788' post='706875']
Try 4 games. Make it 75 yards per game, add it up, that's 1,200 yards in 16 games? [b]You know what, you're right. I'd rather have Housh. Can't beat THAT logic.[/b]


You sound like somebody trying to convince himself his team made good moves. You should join the Vikings fans that still feel trading Hershel Walker was a good trade.


Should be easy for you to name me multiple guys that made more bigplays for us than he did the final 2 years he was here then. Waiting...
[/quote]

Well they both averaged 13.3 yards per catch, so I guess If Housh went to the Rams he probably would have done better or at least the same.

So that being said the logic is there.

[flynismo]

Actually, I'm including Kelley Washington, because even though he played only one season, he outplayed Clayton. He put up nearly identical production as Clayton OFF THE BENCH. Whatcha think about this:


Stats in 2009:

Clayton - 34 recepetions, 480 yards, 2 TD, 24 First Downs
Washington - 34 receptions, 431 yards, 2 TD, 27 First Downs


How AWESOME was Kelley Washington?? He did what Clayton did playing from the BENCH.


So much for this debate. Was fun while it lasted though.

[Bullrush]

[quote name='ArmyRaven52' timestamp='1310575532' post='707017']
Mason and Heap.
[/quote]
Heap had one catch over 30 yards in 09. In 08 he had zero 30+ yard catches. And Clayton had more 30+ yard catches in one game against the Panthers in 08 than Mason had the entire season I believe. What exactly is your point?

Even if him and Mason had the same numbers as far as bigplays made, how does that make Clayton look bad? Look, nobody's saying he's Jerry Rice. This isn't about who was the better overall player. Of course Heap is better. Of course Mason is better. But Clayton was a good weapon and helped us stretch the field, made a lot of bigplays for us by catching long bombs. We don't have that right now. That's why I'd pick him over Housh. And if you look at the poll the majority actually agrees, and you have to give them credit for having the decency to be honest, a good christian virtue that many people lack nowadays.

[Bullrush]

[quote name='ArmyRaven52' timestamp='1310578248' post='707050']
Well they both averaged 13.3 yards per catch, so I guess If Housh went to the Rams he probably would have done better or at least the same.

So that being said the logic is there.
[/quote]
I think that's more you using your imagination than it is using any type of logic. Housh is a backup, he lines up against backups. Give it another shot.

[Guest ArmyRaven52]

[quote name='Bullrush' timestamp='1310580621' post='707071']
Heap had one catch over 30 yards in 09. In 08 he had zero 30+ yard catches. And Clayton had more 30+ yard catches in one game against the Panthers in 08 than Mason had the entire season I believe. What exactly is your point?

Even if him and Mason had the same numbers as far as bigplays made, how does that make Clayton look bad? Look, nobody's saying he's Jerry Rice. This isn't about who was the better overall player. Of course Heap is better. Of course Mason is better. But Clayton was a good weapon and helped us stretch the field, made a lot of bigplays for us by catching long bombs. We don't have that right now. That's why I'd pick him over Housh. And if you look at the poll the majority actually agrees, and you have to give them credit for having the decency to be honest, a good christian virtue that many people lack nowadays.
[/quote]


Ok so ya got the yardage i'll give you that. How about the number of actual first downs made, how big the impact was on the game of that catch. When clayton was here Mase and heap were the go to guys when Flacco needed a big play, yardage is not the only way you measure big plays. A 40 reception on first down against a non conference opponent is not nearly as important as a 3rd or 4th and 9 with less than 2 minutes in a conference game. It is only 9 or 10 yards but it is a HUGE play.

[Bullrush]

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1310580063' post='707066']
Actually, I'm including Kelley Washington, because even though he played only one season, he outplayed Clayton. He put up nearly identical production as Clayton OFF THE BENCH. Whatcha think about this:


Stats in 2009:

Clayton - 34 recepetions, 480 yards, 2 TD, 24 First Downs
Washington - 34 receptions, 431 yards, 2 TD, 27 First Downs


How AWESOME was Kelley Washington?? He did what Clayton did playing from the BENCH.


So much for this debate. Was fun while it lasted though.
[/quote]
You don't seem to understand football. Read my post directed to ArmyRaven52, it should help you.

Maybe it will keep you from saying thinks like Stokley is the best WR in the history of the NFL because he was able to put up 1000+ yards and 10+ touchdowns as a backup. Something many Pro Bowl receivers struggle to do when starting 16 games.

But let's "end" this discussion, you win. I can't beat your logic. Actually I don't even want to.

[Bishop]

A healthy Williams is better then Clayton or stalls, and Goodbye has butterfingers.

[Guest ArmyRaven52]

[quote name='Bullrush' timestamp='1310580806' post='707075']
I think that's more you using your imagination than it is using any type of logic. Housh is a backup, he lines up against backups. Give it another shot.
[/quote]

Yeah here;s another shot. You sir and [i]your[/i] logic is laughable, I totally made those number's up. I conjured them up as a figment of my imagination and they have no basis in fact, I could totally see where you got that accusation from, let me take this opportunity to laugh, it is ok though I am laughing with you.

Second off I know you are not going to blame our current depth and success at Wr is a knock on TJ's talent. If we had the receiving corps we had last year Clayton would have been lucky to pull out the 4th receiver slot, and when he did it would have been end arounds which Stalls was better at anyway.

Now look at the competition that he had in St. Louis, Danny Amendola are you kidding me, yeah he would not have made our roster and that was their number 2 guy. This is awfully similar to when Housh went to the Seahawks and a crappy team. He still put up 900 yard's that season, and look at the schedule from those years.

And you can sit here and say oh well he was on pace to do this or that and he would have had way more than 900 yards blah, blah, blah, but he didn't did he?

And let's not pretend that if Housh and Clayton were on the same team that Clayton would be the starter. And if you are going ot say he is injured than what are you going off of, because in every year that Housh has played he has dominated Clayton in the stat column.

So how about you try again I am waiting to read this ....

[Moderator 3]

We interrupt this thread with a public sevice announcement.

It appears that tempers are getting a little hot here. Please remember that we're only "discussing ideas", we're not arguing with each other. We're (mostly) all diehard Ravens fans, so let us treat each other kindly.

Thank you.

[Guest ArmyRaven52]

[quote name='Moderator 3' timestamp='1310581713' post='707087']
We interrupt this thread with a public sevice announcement.

It appears that tempers are getting a little hot here. Please remember that we're only "discussing ideas", we're not arguing with each other. We're (mostly) all diehard Ravens fans, so let us treat each other kindly.

Thank you.
[/quote]


Haha thank you sir you are correct, I shall go drink a beer and ponder that very suggestion. lol

[Bullrush]

[quote name='ArmyRaven52' timestamp='1310580933' post='707079']
Ok so ya got the yardage i'll give you that. How about the number of actual first downs made, how big the impact was on the game of that catch. When clayton was here Mase and heap were the go to guys when Flacco needed a big play, yardage is not the only way you measure big plays. A 40 reception on first down against a non conference opponent is not nearly as important as a 3rd or 4th and 9 with less than 2 minutes in a conference game. It is only 9 or 10 yards but it is a HUGE play.
[/quote]
I'm not taking anything from Heap or Mason. They're better, they are more clutch, more important of course. But Clayton was the guy who stretched the field. I wouldn't even care about Clayton right now if Stallworth had been able to do the same for us. I just want that guy who can keep safeties on their toes, and free up the middle, help our running game out, help out Heap who catches a lot of passes over the middle, just like Boldin. Free them up. A deep threat does that for your offense. Maybe Torrey will be the guy. I hope so. We can always get another guy like Housh. Kelley Washington was basically the same, same size, same skills, they did the same thing (get 1st downs on 3rd and long mostly), production was the same. Mason or Boldin could slide inside and do that if we had a speedster outside to stretch the field on 3rd and long. The Steelers do that with Hines Ward because they have Mike Wallace to stretch the field, and inside they have Miller, we have Heap. And then imagine having Rice to throw the screen to. A deep threat just opens everything up. If you don't have that deep threat then there's nothing for the defense to worry about, they can't get beat deep unless they really screw up. But that's just how I feel about this whole issue and I'm glad they brought in Torrey to do these things.

[flynismo]

[quote name='Bullrush' timestamp='1310581244' post='707083']
You don't seem to understand football. Read my post directed to ArmyRaven52, it should help you.
[/quote]

Maybe you're right. Maybe I have no clue what I'm talking about. Please, teach me. Show me the error of my ways. I want to learn to appreciate how awesome Clayton is, and since you are the only one who has that opinion, you are all I have to learn from!


[quote name='Bullrush' timestamp='1310581244' post='707083']
Maybe it will keep you from saying thinks like Stokley is the best WR in the history of the NFL because he was able to put up 1000+ yards and 10+ touchdowns as a backup. Something many Pro Bowl receivers struggle to do when starting 16 games.
[/quote]


I would never claim Stokely is the best WR ever. That's stupid.
Just curious, how many 1000 yard, 10 TD seasons did the awesome Clayton have? Should be a lot, since he was drafted 21st overall and was a starter, right?

[quote name='Bullrush' timestamp='1310581244' post='707083']
[b]But let's "end" this discussion, you win. I can't beat your logic.[/b] Actually I don't even want to.
[/quote]

The first intelligent thing I've heard all day.