The Spot Next To Ray

[Bullrush]

[quote name='gabefergy' timestamp='1310567406' post='706943']
I'm not sure why you think Gooden is the best of our young LBs. I haven't seen him make one impactful play in 3 seasons. He has always had potential but he needs to be able to get on the field consistently.
[/quote]
When I see him out there on 3rd down covering TE's and RB's he does great. Nobody really knows if he has made any progress as a run stopper, we'll have to see how he/they do in the preseason. But he has more potential than the other guys so that's why I'd go with him.

[AwakenTheDemon]

[quote name='Bullrush' timestamp='1310582611' post='707102']
When I see him out there on 3rd down covering TE's and RB's he does great. Nobody really knows if he has made any progress as a run stopper, we'll have to see how he/they do in the preseason. But he has more potential than the other guys so that's why I'd go with him.
[/quote]

I really like Gooden as well. His ability to hang with tight ends and running backs definitely stands out, and I see no reason why he couldn't hone the rest of his game, it's not like he's terrible... despite what some around here may say. If he could only stay healthy consistently, he would no doubt be in serious consideration to start alongside Ray.

[1/28/01]

[quote name='AwakenTheDemon' timestamp='1310583286' post='707113']
I really like Gooden as well. His ability to hang with tight ends and running backs definitely stands out, and I see no reason why he couldn't hone the rest of his game, it's not like he's terrible... despite what some around here may say. If he could only stay [b]healthy consistently[/b], he would no doubt be in serious consideration to start alongside Ray.
[/quote]
Simply put, thats what it boils down to for him. He has all the talent and athleticism in the world, just needs to stop "Grant Hilling" it!

[The Raven]

[quote name='AwakenTheDemon' timestamp='1310583286' post='707113']
I really like Gooden as well. His ability to hang with tight ends and running backs definitely stands out, and I see no reason why he couldn't hone the rest of his game, it's not like he's terrible... despite what some around here may say. If he could only stay healthy consistently, he would no doubt be in serious consideration to start alongside Ray.
[/quote]

I remember quite a few times though he'd get beat by TE's, or commit a pass interference penalty. He's not [i]that[/i] great in coverage. I don't think its just his injury concerns holding him back though, he's not physical enough or tough enough to be an ILB in the NFL. In college, you can get away with being a freakish athlete. Vernon Gholston comes to mind. But EVERYONE in the NFL is a freakish athlete. And I mean freakish. In the NFL, you need toughness, instincts, and technique to survive. Gooden is lacking in the first two of those attributes.

[AwakenTheDemon]

[quote name='The Raven' timestamp='1310584097' post='707125']
[b]I remember quite a few times though he'd get beat by TE's, or commit a pass interference penalty.[/b] He's not [i]that[/i] great in coverage. I don't think its just his injury concerns holding him back though, he's not physical enough or tough enough to be an ILB in the NFL. In college, you can get away with being a freakish athlete. Vernon Gholston comes to mind. But EVERYONE in the NFL is a freakish athlete. And I mean freakish. In the NFL, you need toughness, instincts, and technique to survive. Gooden is lacking in the first two of those attributes.
[/quote]

Along with half of our cornerbacks. Sorry, but Gooden is the best of the bunch in pass coverage.

[The Raven]

[quote name='AwakenTheDemon' timestamp='1310584222' post='707126']
Along with half of our cornerbacks. Sorry, but Gooden is the best of the bunch in pass coverage.
[/quote]

I never said he was bad, just that he's not [i]great[/i].
Like I said earlier though, whats keeping him off the field is a lack of physicality and aggression.

[AwakenTheDemon]

[quote name='The Raven' timestamp='1310584664' post='707131']
I never said he was bad, just that he's not [i]great[/i].
Like I said earlier though, whats keeping him off the field is a lack of physicality and aggression.
[/quote]

I really don't blame a guy who's banged up every other week for not being as aggressive as someone like Ray who is pretty durable. If he weren't so fragile, I don't think saying he wasn't as aggressive or physical would even be an option. So ultimately it does bog down to his durability.

[The Raven]

[quote name='AwakenTheDemon' timestamp='1310584784' post='707134']
I really don't blame a guy who's banged up every other week for not being as aggressive as someone like Ray who is pretty durable. If he weren't so fragile, I don't think saying he wasn't as aggressive or physical would even be an option. So ultimately it does bog down to his durability.
[/quote]

I disagree entirely. Football is a man's game. And Gooden plays it like a woman (no offense ladies) You need to be physical when your on the field, cuz the guys on the other side on the LOS are trying to kill you. They are bigger, stronger, and meaner than Gooden. Those Olinemen are trying to kill defensive players. And Gooden just isn't tough enough or physical enough. There are plenty of guys that get hurt alot, but still play physically. Ed Reed comes to mind. Ray has had a couple injuries. Yanda tore his ACL, MCL, and PCL in the same play (im pretty sure) and he's arguably our most physical linemen. Injuries are no excuse for being soft.

[AwakenTheDemon]

[quote name='The Raven' timestamp='1310585118' post='707141']
I disagree entirely. Football is a man's game. And Gooden plays it like a woman (no offense ladies) You need to be physical when your on the field, cuz the guys on the other side on the LOS are trying to kill you. They are bigger, stronger, and meaner than Gooden. Those Olinemen are trying to kill defensive players. And Gooden just isn't tough enough or physical enough. There are plenty of guys that get hurt alot, but still play physically. Ed Reed comes to mind. Ray has had a couple injuries. Yanda tore his ACL, MCL, and PCL in the same play (im pretty sure) and he's arguably our most physical linemen. Injuries are no excuse for being soft.
[/quote]

Oh bull. Gooden hardly plays like a "woman". Period. I'm sorry not everyone who's ever played has the mental fortitude and throw his body to the wind when he himself knows how fragile he is. Not every players who's played is going to play through a torn knee ligament just because it's "a man's game". That's a weak cop out and insulting to men who don't play through an injury. Are they any less of a man? Hell no. The fact of the matter is that Tavares has the tools to succeed, but his health ultimately hinders him more than his tools help him.

Should you be physical and aggressive, yes. That's the nature of football, but I don't see anything about Gooden that says he's lacks aggressiveness and physicality. Ed and Ray are on another level, especially when playing through injuries. What do people who aren't as high on Ed say about him since his neck injury? He doesn't tackle as physically as he used to. Now I'm not saying he does or he doesn't, but does that make him any less of a man because he may have altered his physically due to an injury? No.

[Guest ArmyRaven52]

[quote name='AwakenTheDemon' timestamp='1310585409' post='707146']
Oh bull. Gooden hardly plays like a "woman". Period. I'm sorry not everyone who's ever played has the mental fortitude and throw his body to the wind when he himself knows how fragile he is. Not every players who's played is going to play through a torn knee ligament just because it's "a man's game". That's a weak cop out and insulting to men who don't play through an injury. Are they any less of a man? Hell no. [b]The fact of the matter is that Tavares has the tools to succeed, but his health ultimately hinders him more than his tools help him.[/b]
[/quote]


So then overall isnt he a waste of a roster spot. And I do think he plays like a wuss, he is our least competitive linebacker imo.

[The Raven]

[quote name='AwakenTheDemon' timestamp='1310585409' post='707146']
Oh bull. Gooden hardly plays like a "woman". Period. I'm sorry not everyone who's ever played has the mental fortitude and throw his body to the wind when he himself knows how fragile he is. Not every players who's played is going to play through a torn knee ligament just because it's "a man's game". That's a weak cop out and insulting to men who don't play through an injury. Are they any less of a man? Hell no. The fact of the matter is that Tavares has the tools to succeed, but his health ultimately hinders him more than his tools help him.
[/quote]

Oh really? Reed has a potentially career ending nerve impingement, he plays tough. He plays through injury. Birk played thorugh an injury. Grubbs played through an injury. Ngata played through injury. JJ played through injury two seasons straight! Suggs has played through injury. (2008 AFCCF) Even some of my high school teammates played through injury. One with a hernia, one with a seperated shoulder.

Gooden does play soft. I cant remember how many times I saw OL and FBs driving him ten yards downfield. I dont even know how many times I saw him trying to run around guards. I remember one time, in the preseason game against the Jets, Gooden was blitzed up the middle, had a FREE SHOT on Sanchez, and was unable to get him down. Gooden is a great athlete, but he is far too soft.

[AwakenTheDemon]

[quote name='ArmyRaven52' timestamp='1310585690' post='707148']
So then overall isnt he a waste of a roster spot. And I do think he plays like a wuss, he is our least competitive linebacker imo.
[/quote]

Sorry, Phillips is the wasted spot. Slow and sluggish and has seen even less time than Gooden is one less year in the league. And I'll apologize for valuing Ray's opinion on Gooden higher than the opinion of some members of this message board

[The Raven]

[quote name='AwakenTheDemon' timestamp='1310586113' post='707155']
Sorry, Phillips is the wasted spot. Slow and sluggish and has seen even less time than Gooden is one less year in the league. And I'll apologize for valuing Ray's opinion on Gooden higher than the opinion of some members of this message board
[/quote]

First, at least Phillips can play the run, a linebackers primary job. And, he can tackle a quarterback by himself, something Gooden has proven unable to do.

To your apology, Ray has to speak highly of Gooden, they are teammates afterall.

[AwakenTheDemon]

[quote name='The Raven' timestamp='1310585839' post='707151']
[b]Oh really? Reed has a potentially career ending nerve impingement, he plays tough. He plays through injury. Birk played thorugh an injury. Grubbs played through an injury. Ngata played through injury. JJ played through injury two seasons straight! Suggs has played through injury. (2008 AFCCF) Even some of my high school teammates played through injury. One with a hernia, one with a seperated shoulder. [/b]

Gooden does play soft. I cant remember how many times I saw OL and FBs driving him ten yards downfield. I dont even know how many times I saw him trying to run around guards. I remember one time, in the preseason game against the Jets, Gooden was blitzed up the middle, had a FREE SHOT on Sanchez, and was unable to get him down. Gooden is a great athlete, but he is far too soft.
[/quote]

Did I ever say Reed did not play tough? I said he's altered his tackling style due to his injury, which basically comes back to what you're saying. The ability to play through an injury helps set the greats apart for the average NFL player, and I never once said Gooden was a great or ever would be. I said he has all the potential in the world, but is held back by his health. Why? Because he doesn't play through those injuries that someone like Reed, Lewis, Polamalu, or Willis would play through. However I'm not the one who's going around insulting the man for it. Gooden is far, FAR from the only man who doesn't play through, he's not even the highest profile defensive player who does it.

However, I'm getting tired of this conversation with you. You have your opinion, I have mine. Quite frankly, I don't feel like reiterating the same opinions over and over again, which is what this will eventually come to.

[quote name='The Raven' timestamp='1310586272' post='707161']
First, at least Phillips can play the run, a linebackers primary job. And, he can tackle a quarterback by himself, something Gooden has proven unable to do.

To your apology, Ray has to speak highly of Gooden, they are teammates afterall.
[/quote]

Actually, Ray doesn't have to speak highly of Gooden. I'm sorry, but I think we all know that he's actually quite the honest person. So I'm sorry if I don't think he'd go against that to lump good words on someone if he didn't feel they deserved it. But hey, when you share a locker room with him, practice next to him, and know the man, maybe I'll take what you have to say as seriously as I do Ray.

[Guest ArmyRaven52]

[quote name='AwakenTheDemon' timestamp='1310586113' post='707155']
Sorry, Phillips is the wasted spot. Slow and sluggish and has seen even less time than Gooden is one less year in the league. [b]And I'll apologize for valuing Ray's opinion on Gooden higher than the opinion of some members of this message board [/b]
[/quote]

Don't apologize, you have your opinion no matter how wrong people think it may be. I don't understand though how you can really defend somebodies play who is always injured. When we sign him to a contract we sign him to season's not games, so to evaluate him over the games he has played doesn;t make sense to me because he has NEVER done it over an entire season so he is pretty useless.

[AwakenTheDemon]

[quote name='ArmyRaven52' timestamp='1310588002' post='707196']
Don't apologize, you have your opinion no matter how wrong people think it may be. I don't understand though how you can really defend somebodies play who is always injured. When we sign him to a contract we sign him to season's not games, so to evaluate him over the games he has played doesn;t make sense to me because he has NEVER done it over an entire season so he is pretty useless.
[/quote]

First, it's called sarcasm. I use it alot.

Secondly, out of a possible 48 games, he's played in 26. That's a little over half, so while he's frequently injured, he's still seen at least a decent amount of time. I just love hearing him crucified for something that he's not even the worst perpetrator of.

[Guest ArmyRaven52]

[quote name='AwakenTheDemon' timestamp='1310588307' post='707198']
First, it's called sarcasm. I use it alot.

Secondly, out of a possible 48 games, he's played in 26. That's a little over half, so while he's frequently injured, he's still seen at least a decent amount of time. I just love hearing him crucified for something that he's not even the worst perpetrator of.
[/quote]

Yes I was being sarcastic with that first one too but hey it's 0-0 for the first salvo I guess. And so do I.

Anywho. Half the game's that is pretty anemic, and no he is not the worst at it but I have also said the same thing about Foxy so it is not me picking on him, It is to me that if you are not on the field you are a non factor therefore that spot could be better of for someone else, that is all I'm saying.

[The Raven]

[quote name='AwakenTheDemon' timestamp='1310586439' post='707163']
Did I ever say Reed did not play tough? I said he's altered his tackling style due to his injury, which basically comes back to what you're saying. The ability to play through an injury helps set the greats apart for the average NFL player, and I never once said Gooden was a great or ever would be. I said he has all the potential in the world, but is held back by his health. Why? Because he doesn't play through those injuries that someone like Reed, Lewis, Polamalu, or Willis would play through. However I'm not the one who's going around insulting the man for it. Gooden is far, FAR from the only man who doesn't play through, he's not even the highest profile defensive player who does it.

However, I'm getting tired of this conversation with you. You have your opinion, I have mine. Quite frankly, I don't feel like reiterating the same opinions over and over again, which is what this will eventually come to.



Actually, Ray doesn't have to speak highly of Gooden. I'm sorry, but I think we all know that he's actually quite the honest person. So I'm sorry if I don't think he'd go against that to lump good words on someone if he didn't feel they deserved it. But hey, when you share a locker room with him, practice next to him, and know the man, maybe I'll take what you have to say as seriously as I do Ray.
[/quote]


So, do you want him to pull a James Harrison and insult his teammates? Thats cool too. He kinda has to say good things about him to the press. I mean, Harbs said Frank Walker was a good corner... Do you actually expect him to throw his teammate under the bus like that? Didn't think so.

[da#1ravensfan]

Mcclain will man that spot down and make a impact this season as an every down linebacker

[AwakenTheDemon]

[quote name='The Raven' timestamp='1310589390' post='707220']
So, do you want him to pull a James Harrison and insult his teammates? Thats cool too. He kinda has to say good things about him to the press. I mean, Harbs said Frank Walker was a good corner... Do you actually expect him to throw his teammate under the bus like that? Didn't think so.
[/quote]

You're acting as if it has to be one or the other. The circumstances are not so black and white. Again, if Ray didn't think Gooden was worthy of the kind words, Ray, the honest guy that he is, wouldn't lump them on him. That doesn't mean he has to tear him apart or "throw him under the bus" either. Understand?

[The Raven]

[quote name='AwakenTheDemon' timestamp='1310589986' post='707223']
You're acting as if it has to be one or the other. The circumstances are not so black and white. Again, if Ray didn't think Gooden was worthy of the kind words, Ray, the honest guy that he is, wouldn't lump them on him. That doesn't mean he has to tear him apart or "throw him under the bus" either. Understand?
[/quote]

Is Frank Walker worthy of being called a good corner? It's the same exact thing.

[AwakenTheDemon]

[quote name='The Raven' timestamp='1310590093' post='707224']
Is Frank Walker worthy of being called a good corner? It's the same exact thing.
[/quote]

Walker wasn't [i]always[/i] terrible, nor was he terrible the entire season. He made good plays and he made bad players. Unfortunately for him, he made more bad plays than good. He's certainly better than Ivy.

However, as I said early, I am through discussing this with you.

[Suggs Package]

Brendon Ayanbadejo anyone?

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='Suggs Package' timestamp='1310671800' post='707681']
Brendon Ayanbadejo anyone?
[/quote]

He's a career special teamer who turns 35 this year.

[Ravensfan23]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' timestamp='1310672959' post='707691']
He's a career special teamer who turns 35 this year.
[/quote]

I've been putting a time clock on B.A for the last 2 seasons. I said 2 years ago that Ellerbe would make the team and force BA off the roster. But he stuck around.

However this time, I'm not sure if he will make the team. I love him on the Special Teams side of the ball, but if the Ravens decide to bring Prescott Burgess back, it could be argued that he's our best ST guy.

I think the Ravens will give Burgess the opportunity to test the market and see if he can find a situation where he could compete for starting time.

If he can't or just feels that we are so close to a Super Bowl and he likes being apart of this defense, I see Burgess coming back, to be a back up and ST Ace.

I see our LB on the roster this year as.

Lewis
Suggs
Johnson
McClain
Ellerbe
Gooden
Kindle
Burgess
McClellan
Phillips

In year's past those final couple of roster spots would go to either the LB or DL position. This year I think the Ravens will allocate those final couple roster spots to the offensive side of the ball, either RB or WR, and because of that, I think B.A will be cut.

[Suggs Package]

Yeah, in 2009 he was our best ILB after Ray before his injury concerns. Even was the DPOW at some point. I'm just curious to know how much he has left.