Cam Cameron Bashing

[flynismo]

Cam is mediocre. The only reason anyone knows his name is because of arguably the best RB of all time, two future HOF QBs, one of the best TE ever, and an outstanding OL, all while playing college level defenses 6 games a season.We could do worse. But we could do much better too. I've said many times that the last 1/3 of the season, starting with our second game vs PIT that he did quite well. And in fact I actually expect a significant improvement from him this year.But I still dont want him here.

[ellicottraven]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' timestamp='1310176357' post='705162']
You have to wonder how the offense scored any points at all if oppsosing teams knew what was coming 95% of the time.



Call me an apologist, I really don't care. But it's statements like these that make the bashing just seem irrational at times.

Brees was named Super Bowl MVP in his 9th season. In the four season he actually got significant playing time under Cam though, he showed growth. The same applies to Rivers. In fact, Rivers actually regressed statistically across the board the year after Cam left. And we've seen Joe progress under Cam as well.

There were a number of situations where Cam's play-calling failed in my opinion, but I would have loved to have seen an OC field a top 10 offense with the kind of running game and pass protection issues we saw last season.
[/quote]

I totally agree with your point of view. However, at the end of the day who cares whether one is called an apologist or not. If rational thinking is construed that way so be it. Hating tends to become fashionable as people start piling on. In the midst of it we all seem to forget why we hate so much. Does the punishment really fit the crime? I personally seem to think that in Cam's case he has gotten the brunt of it. This in any way does not condone his inept play calling in some instances. Seriously though, does he always have to be perfect?

Somehow, over time it tends to seem less rational as it does in the case of Cam being constantly criticized.Remember I have already confessed that it felt good to criticize him. It comforted me, rather than continue to feel bitter about our exit last year especially losing to those hated Steelers. The more I thought about it, I felt that we were sort of going overboard with it...

[Ravensfan23]

[quote name='ellicottraven' timestamp='1310189015' post='705220']
I totally agree with your point of view. However, at the end of the day who cares whether one is called an apologist or not. If rational thinking is construed that way so be it. Hating tends to become fashionable as people start piling on. In the midst of it we all seem to forget why we hate so much. Does the punishment really fit the crime? I personally seem to think that in Cam's case he has gotten the brunt of it. This in any way does not condone his inept play calling in some instances. Seriously though, does he always have to be perfect?

Somehow, over time it tends to seem less rational as it does in the case of Cam being constantly criticized.[b]Remember I have already confessed that it felt good to criticize him. It comforted me, rather than continue to feel bitter about our exit last year especially losing to those hated Steelers. The more I thought about it, I felt that we were sort of going overboard with it...[/b]
[/quote]

You are one of few who are actually willing to admit that. I applaud you.

[ravensdfan]

[quote name='justifythegame' timestamp='1310140445' post='704871']
At the end of the day Cam Cameron has brought the Ravens its best offense it has ever seen. Where would the Ravens be if we still had the Billick offense? We wouldn't even be a playoff team considering the defense (while still good) as declined significantly. The real problem is that Cam runs his version of the air coryell o, and people just don't like it, they want to see us go 4 WR instead going 2 TEe/FB...and thats just not going to happen. Cam's type of offense can be really good, in fact it was once the #1 O in the NFL in SD, Turner is making it work in SD again. The problem is we need TEs. Heap is great, he had a good year, but he is no antonio gates. And we need our rookie TEs to step up. And Joe Flacco has to step up his game, he takes too long to make a throw, and he has trouble seeing and hitting the open WR the second they get open compared to veteran QBs in sync with his WRs. Oher needs to learn how to play LT or move back to RT. Its just a combination of things thats slowing the offense down. Those little things have to get corrected for the o to move forward. If people think cam is going to 3 and 4WR and change his style...thats just not going to happen, we might as well fire and hire an OC with a different philosophy then.
[/quote]

That's all well and good but you've pretty much hit the nail on the head why I think Cam is NOT the fantastic OC some around here try to claim. So you have a system. Um...you are the OC. If you do not have the personnel to implement that system, well, then it is your job to change, tweak, adjust, whatever you'd like to call it. Cam does not or can not adjust. Not his system to fit his personnel nor his game plan after the half when the other team has made adjustments. This is a BIG part of an OC's job. Adjusting.

[PWNEDbyDEANO]

Had it been a normal offseason where the players had contact with coaches and could learn new playbooks then I would have wanted us to try to sign McDaniels. Under the current circumstances, I think we might have made a sensible decision about keeping Cam. He'd better be on his very last chance now though.

[izvoodoo]

[quote name='ravensdfan' timestamp='1310206662' post='705259']
That's all well and good but you've pretty much hit the nail on the head why I think Cam is NOT the fantastic OC some around here try to claim. So you have a system. Um...you are the OC. If you do not have the personnel to implement that system, well, then it is your job to change, tweak, adjust, whatever you'd like to call it. Cam does not or can not adjust. Not his system to fit his personnel nor his game plan after the half when the other team has made adjustments. This is a BIG part of an OC's job. Adjusting.
[/quote]

Fantastic OC's are head coaches. Sean Payton, Bill Belichek and Norv Turner are probably the best OC's in the league... and they're all head coaches. Josh McDaniels was a good OC, but he's a little too "west coast." Brad Childress was the game manager, fundamentally sound guy we needed, but with the lock out we stuck with cam. He's good at what he does, and he knows a lot more us. I will say he's scared of losing though.

[Guest ArmyRaven52]

[quote name='Ravensfan23' timestamp='1310156387' post='705015']
But that's the thing. It's not about what he did or didn't do in SD. Players win games. The same way you say, we can't just walk up to Bellicheat and say our OC was great in SD so watch out, is the same for the players. We can't just say this guy did this with another team, and that guy did this with that team, so watch out for our offense. No, those guys have to play up to potential. Both players and coaches.

Yes you can point out those plays calls, and honestly every play that isn't success, someone could say, the play call should have been different. But honestly tell me of 5 times that we produced a big play or TD, that you said.......Man that play call was horrible. That's the part of the game that we just can't see sitting on our couches, and it's rarely seen while at the stadium because most are caught up in the emotion and excitement of the game. How many times do you see a long run and say. Man that was great but Grubbs got destroyed on the backside, he has to get better. It really happens with fans. We see big play and we praise the offense, regardless if a couple guys didn't do their jobs. We see a bad play and if it's not obvious who's at fault, Cam is blamed.

Every single play that didn't work, could and probably should've been a different call. But since you are watching the games.

[b]Go back and watch the Jets game. Look at the Heap dropped TD, that turned into no points because 4 plays latter McGahee fumbled. Look at Flacco holding onto the ball on a short pass play. Oline cut block, defense hits the ground gets up and blast Flacco. That lead to 3 points that shouldn't have. That wasn't play call. Just a poor decision by Flacco. [/b]

[b]Go back and look at the Pats game. Flacco bobbled the snap and it threw off the timing of a potential TD pass. Based off how that game played out, if the Ravens took a 14 point lead there instead of a 10 point lead, game over.[/b]

Go back and look at the Dolphins game and see how inches prevent a big play by Boldin. He was ruled out of bounds, instead of it being a catch. Look at the same drive, from the 7 yardline, Le'Ron McClain couldn't get 1 yard to keep the drive going. The result FG instead of TD.

Look at the very next possesion, Webb picks off Henne. Offense gets the ball at the 4 yardline. McGahee loses 1 yard on the first play. Flacco gets sacked on a play action losing 10 yards on the next play. Delay of game on the next play, loss 5 yards. Then Flacco gets sacked again, with quick pressure in his face on 3rd and 20. A drive that started 1st and goal at the 4 yardline. Ended with a FG attempt from the 20. That wasn't play call, that was execution.

[b]Army I would actually love to sit down and watch a few games with you, and understand better what you actually see, and your thoughts of why a play ended the way it did.[/b]

I didn't get a chance to record all the games to my DVR this year, but whatever game you wanna replay here, I'm more then willing to exchange opinions with you.
[/quote]


Ok looking at the Jets games there were honetly so many stupid calls I don't think the next 3 pages would allow me to explain my reasoning for that. However I will give you too.

The interception Flacco threw when going to Boldin. Revis was on Mason who ran a deep route, and the Cromartie, Wilson, and the Safety were on Boldin, Heap was also running in the exact same direction so we had 2 receiver's in the same place covered by 3 guys, a possession receiver covered by revis. It turned into a pick but where exactly were his options, tat was one of the worst play calls of the season having tow receiver's bunched in the same spot, and a possession receiver running deep against the 2nd best corner in the game. This is compounded with the fact that it was only second down and nobody runs and underneath route, which is also compounded by the fact that there were no underneath routes.

The second being on 3 and 17 from their 36 with 1:44 left, when he calls a pass when the Jets only have one time out. Was it a game altering play. No. however it easily could have been which is what I was talking about, just because it does not materialize does not mean it was any less stupid. However if we would have ran it, they would have burned a time-out and the we would have punted and in all honest know Koch they probably would have had to go at least 85 yards with no timeouts, and with Sanchez at the helm and the way our defense way playing good night.

Now to the Pats game, the thing I found intriguing here is that we were super lucky in this game even though it was a loss.

With the 2 touch downs we had, the one to heap was yet an example of exactly how bad cam misuses our personnel. And more to the point i wanted to find those touchdowns were you said nobody calls them bad calls lol. Well I will the Heap touchdown was again people running deep routes and heap being bracketed, but him being ig enough and the savvy vet skills to be able to jump and still shield the ball. Was it a touchdown. Yes. Was it a stupid call. Yes. Did our player's save Cam. Yes.

Then to the Q touchdown. If it wasn't for a guy falling then we would have never gotten that TD. It was a dumb call because it was a streak by Q, a deep post by heap, and another deep route by Mase. and a check down to Rice. Had that guy not fell down we would have been in 3 and 11. There is no way cam knew that guy was going to fall and every other receiver was blanketed, so it was in idiotic call that we got lucky on.

As far as sitting down and watching the game I hope you don't mind beer because that is my football watching buddy. lol

[Ravensfan23]

[quote name='ravensdfan' timestamp='1310206662' post='705259']
That's all well and good but you've pretty much hit the nail on the head why I think Cam is NOT the fantastic OC some around here try to claim. So you have a system. Um...you are the OC. If you do not have the personnel to implement that system, well, then it is your job to change, tweak, adjust, whatever you'd like to call it. Cam does not or can not adjust. Not his system to fit his personnel nor his game plan after the half when the other team has made adjustments. [b]This is a BIG part of an OC's job. [b]Adjusting.[/b][/b]
[/quote]

I don't think anyone around here things Cam is fantastic and is without fault for the offensive struggles. I just think most people who you guys call "Cam supporters" or whatever, just feel it's unfair to Cam and this team to make him the sole scapegoat for the struggles of the offense. But that's a never ending debate, so lets try something else.

You say adjusting is a big part of an OC's job, and I would agree with you 100%. So with that said...........Lets Adjust.

You have a offensive line who is struggling to get push in the running game. As a team we are averaging 3.4 yards per carry and we are one of the worse short yardage teams in the NFL. In the pervious 2 seasons we've averaged atleast 4.2 yards per carry. What adjustments would you make to get the running game going again?

Mark Clayton is traded, Stallworth breaks his foot, and the FO brings in a WR that's identical to your top 2 WRs. They really don't compliment each other or your QB well. However they do compliment the running game, meaning if the running game is going well they'll succeed more.

The FO relied on the fact that we'd be about to be a top 5 rushing team like we were the previous 2 seasons, and that would give your 3 possession WRs and TE space to do their thing. As mentioned that didn't happen. What adjustments would you make to create the space needed for those 3WRs and TE to be productive?

You have 2 brand new WRs, one that's had a full offseason with the team, the other who was added 6 days before the start of the season. You have a young QB who still struggles with his pre-snap reads at times. What adjustment would you make to ensure that all of these new moving parts are in the correct place at all times?

You have a group of backs that collectively struggled to hold up with pass protection. What adjustments would you make to get those guys stepping up and taking on blocks better?

Now before I end this, I'll say that I personally don't feel Cam Cameron did all he could do as a OC. However I do think his hands were tied in certain situations as well.

With the scenarios i mentioned above I'm not saying Cam handled them well, I just would like to get a feel for how you and others would have handled these situations if you were in Cam's shoes. And how they compare or differ from my own opinions.

[ellicottraven]

[quote name='berad' timestamp='1310151318' post='704946']
The Cameron bashing has become more tempered as the offseason has gone on. But I think that's more because people are more frustrated/jaded with the CBA issues than mad at Cameron.
[/quote]


You have got a point Berad, but it still occupies our conscience more than it should at this time...

[berad]

[quote name='ellicottraven' timestamp='1310228734' post='705335']
You have got a point Berad, but it still occupies our conscience more than it should at this time...
[/quote]

True, I just said it declined. Probably because only the real regulars come to the boards and they've run out of things to say without any football or consistent news - I know I have

[ellicottraven]

[quote name='izvoodoo' timestamp='1310225101' post='705305']
Fantastic OC's are head coaches. Sean Payton, Bill Belichek and Norv Turner are probably the best OC's in the league... and they're all head coaches. Josh McDaniels was a good OC, but he's a little too "west coast." Brad Childress was the game manager, fundamentally sound guy we needed, but with the lock out we stuck with cam. He's good at what he does, and he knows a lot more us. I will say he's scared of losing though.
[/quote]


Is your implication that since Cam was a head coach before he became our OC, he is a fantastic OC? I tend to agree with your point that he was scared of losing which kind of makes one lose the aggressive edge in play calling...

[Ravensfan23]

[quote name='ArmyRaven52' timestamp='1310225121' post='705306']
Ok looking at the Jets games there were honetly so many stupid calls I don't think the next 3 pages would allow me to explain my reasoning for that. However I will give you too.

The interception Flacco threw when going to Boldin. Revis was on Mason who ran a deep route, and the Cromartie, Wilson, and the Safety were on Boldin, Heap was also running in the exact same direction so we had 2 receiver's in the same place covered by 3 guys, a possession receiver covered by revis. It turned into a pick but where exactly were his options, tat was one of the worst play calls of the season having tow receiver's bunched in the same spot, and a possession receiver running deep against the 2nd best corner in the game. This is compounded with the fact that it was only second down and nobody runs and underneath route, which is also compounded by the fact that there were no underneath routes.
[/quote]

Ok I'll break these down play by play so the Posts won't be overly long.

On this play. The Jets were in a cover 1 defense with man to man on the outside. With 1 safety in the middle of the middle, and everyone else matched up man to man, it was safe call to think the Jets would be blitzing. When are they not right.

The Ravens came out in a 2TE 2WR set with McClain as the lone RB. With Q and Mason split out wide, Heap lined up in the slot. Playing off our tendency as a power running team, the Jets loaded the box.

The play called for a play action, with Dickson and McClain providing max protection. Boldin's outside route was supposed to be a post. That post route was supposed to hold the lone safety(Leonhard) in the middle of the field.

Heap was one on one with the other safety(Smith), mismatch. Heap ran a out and up. That area of the field was intended to be cleared out by Boldin's route, and Heap would either beat the safety with his route, or out jump the smaller man in the endzone for the ball.

However because Boldin ran the wrong route, the play wasn't executed like it was supposed to be. 10 guys did their jobs on that play, 1 guy didn't and that's why the result was a INT.

Watching the play again. Flacco throws a jumpball type pass to the corner of the endzone, because he's expecting the new guy to run the correct route. That didn't happen.

Once the call leaves the sidelines it's out of Cam's hands. Judging by the defense the Jets ran and the mismatch Heap had, I'd give Cam a passing grade for the call. If Boldin runs the correct route, it's a TD, incomplete pass at the worse.

[color="#4B0082"][url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0hSC99IMO8&feature=player_embedded"]My link[/url][/color]

[ellicottraven]

[quote name='berad' timestamp='1310228972' post='705336']
True, I just said it declined. Probably because only the real regulars come to the boards and they've run out of things to say without any football or consistent news - I know I have
[/quote]


Ha Ha! you make another good point! Arguing against 'Cam Bashing' is like,,,

[Ravens Lover]

I myself was part of the fire Cam crew this off season, but his play calling was one of the reasons Flacco was so successful his rookie. But I think his biggest problem is he hasn't matched the type of players we have with his play calling. But us as fans he does deserve criticism but not for all we bash him for. Its a mix not all Cam

[Ravensfan23]

[quote name='ArmyRaven52' timestamp='1310225121' post='705306']
The second being on 3 and 17 from their 36 with 1:44 left, when he calls a pass when the Jets only have one time out. Was it a game altering play. No. however it easily could have been which is what I was talking about, just because it does not materialize does not mean it was any less stupid. However if we would have ran it, they would have burned a time-out and the we would have punted and in all honest know Koch they probably would have had to go at least 85 yards with no timeouts, and with Sanchez at the helm and the way our defense way playing good night.
[/quote]

That's one of those plays that we as fans really can't judge because we don't know what went into the decision. Normally I would agree with you. Run the ball and force them to burn a time, put the game on the defenses back.

However at the 36 yardline and holding a 1 point lead, you are just out of comfortable FG range.

As fans we have no way of knowing if the Ravens collective decided to put the game in Flacco's hands to pick up at least 5-8 yards and get Billy Cundiff closer to attempt a FG.

A one point lead is so fragile. One missed tackle and the guy kicks a 60 yard FG, you lose. So the coaches, mainly the Head Coach, might have decided it'd be better to try and pick up a few extra yards and kick the FG that would have given us a 4 point lead instead of 1.

That in turn would have made the Jets offensive strategy much different on the last drive.

That is one of those gambles you feel comfortable taking because you know you have an exceptional Punter and a really strong defense.

The Ravens gambled it didn't work, but it didn't hurt us. Everybody breathes a shi of relief and it's onto the next game.

Cam takes some blame for that, but the coaching staff as a whole does imo. OR at least Harbs because he's the final decision maker on something like that.

[Guest ArmyRaven52]

[quote name='Ravensfan23' timestamp='1310229988' post='705346']
Ok I'll break these down play by play so the Posts won't be overly long.

On this play. The Jets were in a cover 1 defense with man to man on the outside. With 1 safety in the middle of the middle, and everyone else matched up man to man, it was safe call to think the Jets would be blitzing. When are they not right.

The Ravens came out in a 2TE 2WR set with McClain as the lone RB. With Q and Mason split out wide, Heap lined up in the slot. Playing off our tendency as a power running team, the Jets loaded the box.

The play called for a play action, with Dickson and McClain providing max protection. Boldin's outside route was supposed to be a post. That post route was supposed to hold the lone safety(Leonhard) in the middle of the field.

Heap was one on one with the other safety(Smith), mismatch. Heap ran a out and up. That area of the field was intended to be cleared out by Boldin's route, and Heap would either beat the safety with his route, or out jump the smaller man in the endzone for the ball.

However because Boldin ran the wrong route, the play wasn't executed like it was supposed to be. 10 guys did their jobs on that play, 1 guy didn't and that's why the result was a INT.

Watching the play again. Flacco throws a jumpball type pass to the corner of the endzone, because he's expecting the new guy to run the correct route. That didn't happen.

Once the call leaves the sidelines it's out of Cam's hands. Judging by the defense the Jets ran and the mismatch Heap had, I'd give Cam a passing grade for the call. If Boldin runs the correct route, it's a TD, incomplete pass at the worse.

[color="#4B0082"][url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0hSC99IMO8&feature=player_embedded"]My link[/url][/color]
[/quote]

How do you know what the play call was, if you knew then you are cheating anyway lol. I understand the educated guess part though, but is that what you are basing it off of. Even at that if boldin's job is to hold up the safety I am then assuming that cromartie is also on boldin.

And assuming that they are going to blitz, I think that most QB's areound the league command the respect of the blitz by burning them through the sir by spreading people out, not by max protecting and then having 3 receiver's try to match up with the most talented secondary in the league.

And I am not sure I would say that was a jump ball just because Q jumped.

[Guest ArmyRaven52]

[quote name='Ravensfan23' timestamp='1310230789' post='705351']
That's one of those plays that we as fans really can't judge because we don't know what went into the decision. Normally I would agree with you. Run the ball and force them to burn a time, put the game on the defenses back.

However at the 36 yardline and holding a 1 point lead, you are just out of comfortable FG range.

As fans we have no way of knowing if the Ravens collective decided to put the game in Flacco's hands to pick up at least 5-8 yards and get Billy Cundiff closer to attempt a FG.

A one point lead is so fragile. One missed tackle and the guy kicks a 60 yard FG, you lose. So the coaches, mainly the Head Coach, might have decided it'd be better to try and pick up a few extra yards and kick the FG that would have given us a 4 point lead instead of 1.

That in turn would have made the Jets offensive strategy much different on the last drive.

That is one of those gambles you feel comfortable taking because you know you have an exceptional Punter and a really strong defense.

The Ravens gambled it didn't work, but it didn't hurt us. Everybody breathes a shi of relief and it's onto the next game.

Cam takes some blame for that, but the coaching staff as a whole does imo. OR at least Harbs because he's the final decision maker on something like that.
[/quote]

Ok 80 percent of that I agree with. To be honest either way it was going to go one the D's back because a 4 point lead with over a minute and a timeout isn't exactly impenetrable. I would rather have the Jets not only trying to beat out defense but the clock as well.

This is one of those plays that like I was saying just because nothing materialized a lot of people are willing to say oh well, nothing bad happened so therefore it could not be that bad of a call,

And as for them kicking, it is not like their kicker is cundiff, janikowski, scobee, hanson, rackers, or gould. That being said the would have had to travel at least 50 to 55 yards to be able to kick a field goal safety.

[Ravensfan23]

[quote name='ArmyRaven52' timestamp='1310225121' post='705306']
Now to the Pats game, the thing I found intriguing here is that we were super lucky in this game even though it was a loss.

With the 2 touch downs we had, the one to heap was yet an example of exactly how bad cam misuses our personnel. And more to the point i wanted to find those touchdowns were you said nobody calls them bad calls lol. Well I will the Heap touchdown was again people running deep routes and heap being bracketed, but him being ig enough and the savvy vet skills to be able to jump and still shield the ball. Was it a touchdown. Yes. Was it a stupid call. Yes. Did our player's save Cam. Yes.
[/quote]

Really. I think you're really fishing on this one. First off we were on the 16 yardline. How do you run a deep route without 16 yards to work with? When you are in the redzone you can't just dink and dunk all day. The Ravens attacked the endzone and forced the Pats to defend.

On the Heap TD. Heap was split out wide and initially was bracketed. However when Boldin came in motion and become the slot WR, he grabbed the intention of his man, the LB and the Safety on that side of the field.

With Boldin holding all 3 of those guys with his route, Heap was supposed to run a double move, probably a slug-go. However the CB jammed Heap at the LOS which was not expected.

At that point the timing of the play was thrown off and it was up to Heap and Flacco to use that savvy you spoke about. Heap never jumped, and he shielded the ball because his route turned into a slant route.

Watch the 1 Winning Drive episode and listen to Ed Reed's reaction to the play. Of course they gonna look at Anqaun in the middle is what he said. Listen to Q's(former Raven) breakdown of the play.

[color="#4B0082"][url="http://www.baltimoreravens.com/media_library/Shows/2010/1_Winning_Drive/Episode_6_vs_NE.aspx?id=e74662847b574a0bb28dc92400e9551b"]My link[/url][/color]

Now watch Todd Heap's actual break down of the play and see if you still have the same opinion.

[color="#4B0082"][url="http://www.baltimoreravens.com/media_library/Shows/2010/1_Winning_Drive/Episode_6_vs_NE.aspx?id=e74662847b574a0bb28dc92400e9551b"]My link[/url][/color]

Anytime Todd Heap is matched up on a safety it's a mismatch imo and you do your best to take full advantage of it. That's what the Ravens did. I can't fault Cam for that.

[Ravensfan23]

[quote name='ArmyRaven52' timestamp='1310225121' post='705306']
Then to the Q touchdown. If it wasn't for a guy falling then we would have never gotten that TD. It was a dumb call because it was a streak by Q, a deep post by heap, and another deep route by Mase. and a check down to Rice. Had that guy not fell down we would have been in 3 and 11. There is no way cam knew that guy was going to fall and every other receiver was blanketed, so it was in idiotic call that we got lucky on.

As far as sitting down and watching the game I hope you don't mind beer because that is my football watching buddy. lol
[/quote]

No Cam didn't know that was going to happen, but that route by Q was called in the huddle. Again if you watch 1 winning drive, you'll see where Q told Flacco, the guy is hurt or tired, just throw it up to me.

[color="#4B0082"][url="http://www.baltimoreravens.com/media_library/Shows/2010/1_Winning_Drive/Episode_6_vs_NE.aspx?id=e74662847b574a0bb28dc92400e9551b"]My link[/url][/color]

Flacco wasn't going anywhere else with the ball on that play. Even if the guy didn't fall, Flacco would have given Q the 1 on 1 chance. If the Safety would have provided help on Boldin, then Flacco would have waited for Heap to come open down the middle.

That was one of those plays were the guys on the field saw something, and either Cam allowed them to take advantage of it, or they took it upon themselves to take advantage of it. As fans we'll never know without being in the film room with them.

[Ravensfan23]

[quote name='ArmyRaven52' timestamp='1310230798' post='705352']
How do you know what the play call was, if you knew then you are cheating anyway lol. I understand the educated guess part though, but is that what you are basing it off of. Even at that if boldin's job is to hold up the safety I am then assuming that cromartie is also on boldin.

And assuming that they are going to blitz, I think that most QB's areound the league command the respect of the blitz by burning them through the sir by spreading people out, not by max protecting and then having 3 receiver's try to match up with the most talented secondary in the league.

And I am not sure I would say that was a jump ball just because Q jumped.
[/quote]

In a man to man defense why wouldn't Cro be with Boldin?

There isn't just one way to defeat the blitz, Yea spreading them out is one way, but also having enough guys to block the blitz is effective as well.

That same talented secondary struggled to cover our WRs man to man all night long.

I didnt say it was a jump ball just because Q jumped, Q imo wasn't even meant to be their. Watch the trajectory of the ball. Flacco just threw the ball off his back foot and he Heap been the lone Ravens over their, he'd either catch it over his shoulders or out jump the safety for it.

Why Q jumped is beyond me, if anything he should have worked his way back to what appeared to be a underthrown ball. However it appeared that way because he wasn't the intended WR. Flacco throw the ball to the front pylon for Heap imo.

[Guest ArmyRaven52]

Listening to that one winning drive helped me realize a lot of things but as far as justification for cam not so much.

A.) Of course Q is going to say that because, he is a competitor, he is the best receiver on the team, and he has confidence. Joe is going to throw it to his best receiver, now if that guy would not have fallen where the ball was located the DB could have definitely made a play on the ball, it was not an over the shoulder therefore the DB probably had a better shot at it then Q. It was risky and if it had not worked there would be another reason that most people on this site would be calling for his head.


B.) On the heap play the defender still had help over the top. And Against every safety I dont think heap wins, but against the vast majority and Pat chung definitely, but he still had another DB to worry about and throwing into coverage like that is what screwed the pooch in the Steeler's game.

C.) And you kind of said one of the biggest things that irritate me about Cam Cameron. He ALLOWED it, the truth of the matter and that man's reality is that if he and Joe dont mesh he will get the ax way before flacco. So this year that guy better start letting Flacco call more plays or it is going to be a very interesting year for his job security, and that is just the name of the game. I you look at guys like Peyton's OC there is a good reason why they are still around and that is because their Qb has control. Now you look at Tom Brady who has shuffled through OC's like crazy. Is it because of control, who knows but I know once weiss left that offense got really good really fast.

[Guest ArmyRaven52]

[quote name='Ravensfan23' timestamp='1310233702' post='705368']
In a man to man defense why wouldn't Cro be with Boldin?

There isn't just one way to defeat the blitz, Yea spreading them out is one way, but also having enough guys to block the blitz is effective as well.

That same talented secondary struggled to cover our WRs man to man all night long.

I didnt say it was a jump ball just because Q jumped, Q imo wasn't even meant to be their. Watch the trajectory of the ball. Flacco just threw the ball off his back foot and he Heap been the lone Ravens over their, he'd either catch it over his shoulders or out jump the safety for it.

Why Q jumped is beyond me, if anything he should have worked his way back to what appeared to be a underthrown ball. However it appeared that way because he wasn't the intended WR. Flacco throw the ball to the front pylon for Heap imo.
[/quote]


It is a very subjective play, I can 100 percent say that.

With the way everything played out though I would have still rather seen more of the route tree utilized.

A lot of people want to complain about our O-line and their inconsistency well against the Jets very talented defense I am not sure why we would try to max protect when their specialty is getting after the passer, when we can put those Lb's in some uncomfortable situations having to cover guys that they have no shot at covering, I think that would have been a far better game plan in that situation.

And I am not sure I would say we whooped them in man to man, Heap made a spectacular catch that I would not want him to have to make again, and there were some other's like housh but that was against a rookie CB, which is why I said we should have spread them out instead of trying to block and extremely talented form seven when it comes to harassing Qb's

[Ravensfan23]

[quote name='ArmyRaven52' timestamp='1310231234' post='705354']
Ok 80 percent of that I agree with. To be honest either way it was going to go one the D's back because a 4 point lead with over a minute and a timeout isn't exactly impenetrable. I would rather have the Jets not only trying to beat out defense but the clock as well.

This is one of those plays that like I was saying just because nothing materialized a lot of people are willing to say oh well, nothing bad happened so therefore it could not be that bad of a call,

And as for them kicking, it is not like their kicker is cundiff, janikowski, scobee, hanson, rackers, or gould. That being said the would have had to travel at least 50 to 55 yards to be able to kick a field goal safety.
[/quote]

You're right about their kicker, but it's not like they had Manning or Brady under center either.

So that could have been why the coaches thought the risk was worth it. If we pick up a few yards and convert the FG, great we have a 4 point lead and they have to score a TD, something they didn't do all game. They still would have had to burn their final timeout, because the clock continues to run on a completed pass. It would have been 4th down, and either they burn a timeout or we run the clock all the way down and still kick the FG.

If we don't get the yardage, or miss the FG, then we rely on Koch and our defense to pick us up.

It's one of those things that goes unnoticed as you said, but I can't sit here and just flame Cam for that.

[Guest ArmyRaven52]

[quote name='Ravens Lover' timestamp='1310230635' post='705349']
I myself was part of the fire Cam crew this off season, but his play calling was one of the reasons Flacco was so successful his rookie. But I think his biggest problem is he hasn't matched the type of players we have with his play calling. But us as fans he does deserve criticism but not for all we bash him for. Its a mix not all Cam
[/quote]
Definitely a mix, but Joe was also very comfortable with his Qb coach that year and I think that was the reason he has so much success that year. I think in the offensive meeting Hue Jackson probably told them exactly how far flacco was progressing . Cam does deserve credit for taking into account what his staff said, but it was not all just him, just like it is not all him that it is the problem.

[Guest ArmyRaven52]

[quote name='izvoodoo' timestamp='1310225101' post='705305']
Fantastic OC's are head coaches. Sean Payton, Bill Belichek and Norv Turner are probably the best OC's in the league... and they're all head coaches. Josh McDaniels was a good OC, but he's a little too "west coast." Brad Childress was the game manager, fundamentally sound guy we needed, but with the lock out we stuck with cam. He's good at what he does, and he knows a lot more us. I will say he's scared of losing though.
[/quote]


I am almost positive bellicheat is a defensive guy.

[1/28/01]

Award for most back and forths goes to................

[Ravensfan23]

[quote name='ArmyRaven52' timestamp='1310233845' post='705372']
Listening to that one winning drive helped me realize a lot of things but as far as justification for cam not so much.

A.) Of course Q is going to say that because, he is a competitor, he is the best receiver on the team, and he has confidence. Joe is going to throw it to his best receiver, now if that guy would not have fallen where the ball was located the DB could have definitely made a play on the ball, it was not an over the shoulder therefore the DB probably had a better shot at it then Q. It was risky and if it had not worked there would be another reason that most people on this site would be calling for his head.


B On the heap play the defender still had help over the top. And Against every safety I dont think heap wins, but against the vast majority and Pat chung definitely, but he still had another DB to worry about and throwing into coverage like that is what screwed the pooch in the Steeler's game.

C.) And you kind of said one of the biggest things that irritate me about Cam Cameron. He ALLOWED it, the truth of the matter and that man's reality is that if he and Joe dont mesh he will get the ax way before flacco. So this year that guy better start letting Flacco call more plays or it is going to be a very interesting year for his job security, and that is just the name of the game. I you look at guys like Peyton's OC there is a good reason why they are still around and that is because their Qb has control. Now you look at Tom Brady who has shuffled through OC's like crazy. Is it because of control, who knows but I know once weiss left that offense got really good really fast.
[/quote]

A). You're playing the what if game. The ball didn't have to be placed perfectly because the guy fell down. Boldin didn't just say the guy was tired because he's a compeitor, because McClain said the same thing, and there's no way McClain would have been matched up one on one on that guy. The guys noticed something and we took advantage of it. Why dig deeper for something that's not there? Risky how, you have your best WR on the team matched up with a guy that's not 100%, you attack him and force the guy to make a play. If the defense makes a play then it's 2nd and 10 from the 25 yard line.

. We are at the 16 yardline going into the endzone, of course he had help over the top. That's why it was so important for Boldin to hold the safety and Heap to get off clean. There isn't much space in the redzone to begin with and the Safety jamming Heap at the line made it tighter because he disrupted the timing of the play. Flacco saw the same thing Heap did and they made it work. Heap actually came back and thanked Cam for calling that play afterwards. Are you really telling me that play is why you dislike Cam?

C). He allowed it because he's the play caller, not because he's a dictator. It has nothing to do with Cam allowing Flacco to call plays or not. Again you are fishing Army. The guys either when to the side lines and said, hey #27 is tired, lets attack him and Cam said ok let run this. Or while in the huddle the guys said, we can get one on #27 lets attack him here. You're taking one play and making it the sum of the entire season.

Even with Cam actually making the play call it was Flacco choice to throw the ball to whomever came open or had an advantage against the defense. Flacco and Boldin's convo summed it up the best. That guy thought you were gonna run another route, you didn't so we beat him. However if they were in a Cover 2 and the safety got over, I would have just waited for Heap to come free down the middle.

Yea, Cam really handcuffed Joe on that play.

Stop comparing Flacco to Manning and Brady. The guy is in his 3rd NFL season, and he's still developing. Neither one of those guys had full control of their offense in their 3rd season. The reason why their OC's dont' really matter is because the system has stayed the same for 5-10 years. Flacco has been in this offense for 3 years and has admitted that he still doesn't have the entire playbook down.

Flacco's moment to be elite will come, but don't rush it, just let it happen. You put too much on Flacco and treat him like Manning or Brady, and he fails tremendously, then you loss the franchise QB you've waited 12 years for. I'd rather hold Flacco back for one season too long, rather then put too much on him too fast and break him for the rest of his career.

[PurpleReign92]

[quote name='ArmyRaven52' timestamp='1310235114' post='705381']
I am almost positive bellicheat is a defensive guy.
[/quote]
I agree, I do think that during training camp and after the lockout if people, fans are not excited then maybe Ozzie and Harb's will make the call to possibly place in a new OC. The reason is the Owners and organization are going to try and keep the fans happy rooting for there teams and in the stands and seat when it comes game time...
If I can collect enough cash maybe you may see me at one of the games, probably the Monday Night ESPN prime time game against the Skins...

[izvoodoo]

[quote name='ellicottraven' timestamp='1310229282' post='705339']
Is your implication that since Cam was a head coach before he became our OC, he is a fantastic OC? I tend to agree with your point that he was scared of losing which kind of makes one lose the aggressive edge in play calling...
[/quote]

No, that the OCs who people think very highly of are HC's. It's hard to find a OC who is an elite offensively gifted mind because they tend to be HC's. Unless they lose their job, as is the case of Josh McDaniels, brad childress and ironically Cam cameron.

[Guest ArmyRaven52]

[quote name='Ravensfan23' timestamp='1310235728' post='705387']
A). You're playing the what if game. The ball didn't have to be placed perfectly because the guy fell down. Boldin didn't just say the guy was tired because he's a compeitor, because McClain said the same thing, and there's no way McClain would have been matched up one on one on that guy. The guys noticed something and we took advantage of it. Why dig deeper for something that's not there? Risky how, you have your best WR on the team matched up with a guy that's not 100%, you attack him and force the guy to make a play. If the defense makes a play then it's 2nd and 10 from the 25 yard line.

. We are at the 16 yardline going into the endzone, of course he had help over the top. That's why it was so important for Boldin to hold the safety and Heap to get off clean. There isn't much space in the redzone to begin with and the Safety jamming Heap at the line made it tighter because he disrupted the timing of the play. Flacco saw the same thing Heap did and they made it work. Heap actually came back and thanked Cam for calling that play afterwards. Are you really telling me that play is why you dislike Cam?

C). He allowed it because he's the play caller, not because he's a dictator. It has nothing to do with Cam allowing Flacco to call plays or not. Again you are fishing Army. The guys either when to the side lines and said, hey #27 is tired, lets attack him and Cam said ok let run this. Or while in the huddle the guys said, we can get one on #27 lets attack him here. You're taking one play and making it the sum of the entire season.

Even with Cam actually making the play call it was Flacco choice to throw the ball to whomever came open or had an advantage against the defense. Flacco and Boldin's convo summed it up the best. That guy thought you were gonna run another route, you didn't so we beat him. However if they were in a Cover 2 and the safety got over, I would have just waited for Heap to come free down the middle.

Yea, Cam really handcuffed Joe on that play.

Stop comparing Flacco to Manning and Brady. The guy is in his 3rd NFL season, and he's still developing. Neither one of those guys had full control of their offense in their 3rd season. The reason why their OC's dont' really matter is because the system has stayed the same for 5-10 years. Flacco has been in this offense for 3 years and has admitted that he still doesn't have the entire playbook down.

Flacco's moment to be elite will come, but don't rush it, just let it happen. You put too much on Flacco and treat him like Manning or Brady, and he fails tremendously, then you loss the franchise QB you've waited 12 years for. I'd rather hold Flacco back for one season too long, rather then put too much on him too fast and break him for the rest of his career.
[/quote]

Ok last one from me, as someone pointed out we are kind of making this thread a conversation between people.

He may not seem like a dictator to you, however there are a lot of fans who would disagree with you and myself included. I think he had entirely too much control and was not going to give it up until Harbs said, "Hey we got to fix this or me fighting to get you back could blow up in my face." I personally think he held onto the reigns to tightly, similar to what an 8 year old would to their favorite blanket. And it was not my intention to make it the sum of the season just one of many times that it occurred.

I think Peyton had control of his offense completely by the time his rookie season was over and was completely his in the second. That is why people now say Bill Polian is a genius because he saw that peyton had the work ethic and smarts to do it.

The Brady thing was to illustrate that when a controlling OC leaves that usually the freedom allows the QB to grow up and really come into his own. And I understand that Flacco is only in his 4th season but I am not going to lower my expectations because of his last name. I think he has the potential to be as good or better than either of those guys, but this next year is going to be critical in how he develops.

And no that singular play is not why I don't like him. There are several reason's why. And to list those will get this thread going all over again.

And everybody is playing the what if game yourself included. What if the player's execute better etc. It is all subjective opinion and I think your is as valid as anyone else's I just personally won't like the guy until Baltimore reaps the benefit of his "genius."