Dominant Defensive End

[Bullrush]

Just came across this article, thought it was very interesting.

[quote][b]A Raven’s Run Stopper[/b]
When you think of the Ravens’ defense, you think of their play against the run. Players that usually come to mind are Ray Lewis and Haloti Ngata. Outside linebacker Jarrett Johnson should be added to that list, as should Terrell Suggs.

The majority of defensive ends are strong in one area of the game but not the other, Suggs, however is dominant in both aspects. His 42 regular season stops ranked him eighth among all defensive linemen in 2010. Even in the times Suggs had to defend the pass he had a positive rating, another reason he is trusted as an every down player.[/quote]
Check: [url="http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2011/06/19/terrell-suggs-dominant-defensive-end"]http://www.profootba...t-defensive-end[/url] for more.

[Token]

[quote]One third of the overall pressures brought by Baltimore in 2010 came from Suggs, making him by far the most impactful pass rusher on the team.[/quote]

That really jumped out to me in the article.
I know it's no secret, but we really need some more pass rush this year.

[Bullrush]

Him and Ngata are our only pass rushers really. With Suggs on the other side I'm amazed how invsible Jarret was last season in terms of rushing the passer. He had one sack, I mean come on. We really need guys to step up. You can't run a 3-4 and have one of your OLB's rack up ONE sack in 16 games.

[grape drank]

[quote name='Bullrush' timestamp='1308492785' post='698502']
Him and Ngata are our only pass rushers really. With Suggs on the other side I'm amazed how invsible Jarret was last season in terms of rushing the passer. He had one sack, I mean come on. We really need guys to step up. You can't run a 3-4 and have one of your OLB's rack up ONE sack in 16 games.
[/quote]
i know, I really thought with all the attention being given to suggs that JJ could flourish. I've seen film where Suggs beats a tackle, then the FB comes out to block him then the RB (in his top 100 video, at the part where they say teams comes up with crazy schemes to block him then he figures it out) and he still gets the sack. Why can't JJ beat one tackle and get a free lane to the QB? Hopefully Kindle will be able to muster a more comendable effort.

[PurpleReign92]

[quote name='grape drank' timestamp='1308494247' post='698507']
i know, I really thought with all the attention being given to suggs that JJ could flourish. I've seen film where Suggs beats a tackle, then the FB comes out to block him then the RB (in his top 100 video, at the part where they say teams comes up with crazy schemes to block him then he figures it out) and he still gets the sack. Why can't JJ beat one tackle and get a free lane to the QB? Hopefully Kindle will be able to muster a more comendable effort.
[/quote]
I think Suggs arguably is the best OLB/DE hybrid in the NFL today...
The stats speak for themselves and he is one of the highest paid players on our team...

[berad]

[quote name='Bullrush' timestamp='1308492785' post='698502']
Him and Ngata are our only pass rushers really. With Suggs on the other side I'm amazed how invsible Jarret was last season in terms of rushing the passer. He had one sack, I mean come on. We really need guys to step up. You can't run a 3-4 and have one of your OLB's rack up ONE sack in 16 games.
[/quote]

Johnson [i]was[/i] nursing that shoulder injury so that may have hindered his performance. Either way, we definitely need more production in the pass-rush department. I'm hoping that Kindle, Kruger, Jones, and/or someone else can step up.

[Bmoresun]

[quote name='Bullrush' timestamp='1308492785' post='698502']
Him and Ngata are our only pass rushers really. With Suggs on the other side I'm amazed how invsible Jarret was last season in terms of rushing the passer. He had one sack, I mean come on. We really need guys to step up. You can't run a 3-4 and have one of your OLB's rack up ONE sack in 16 games.
[/quote]

What disappointments me even more about Jarrett Johnson is that we drafted him as a pass rushing defensive end. Coming out of Alabama, where he played DE JJ recorded 23 sacks, and 25 tackles for loss; good for second all time in both categories in the schools history; which is saying a lot, BAMA isn't Temple or UCONN, that's SEC ball. When we drafted the guy I thought he was going to be a monster at DE in our 4-3 defense, and he never really did much not recording a sack in his first two seasons. When we did switch to the 3-4 I once again thought that maybe he could translate some of what he did in college to the Lolb position, but as we have witnessed it has never come to fruition. In the 3-4 the primary task of pass rushing falls onto the linebackers, and we desperately need someone besides Jarrett Johnson who is capable of rushing opposite Suggs if we want to see dramatic improvement in sack totals.

[Ravensfan23]

[quote name='Bmoresun' timestamp='1308514207' post='698577']
What disappointments me even more about Jarrett Johnson is that we drafted him as a pass rushing defensive end. Coming out of Alabama, where he played DE JJ recorded 23 sacks, and 25 tackles for loss; good for second all time in both categories in the schools history; which is saying a lot, BAMA isn't Temple or UCONN, that's SEC ball. When we drafted the guy I thought he was going to be a monster at DE in our 4-3 defense, and he never really did much not recording a sack in his first two seasons. When we did switch to the 3-4 I once again thought that maybe he could translate some of what he did in college to the Lolb position, but as we have witnessed it has never come to fruition. In the 3-4 the primary task of pass rushing falls onto the linebackers, and we desperately need someone besides Jarrett Johnson who is capable of rushing opposite Suggs if we want to see dramatic improvement in sack totals.
[/quote]

Jarrett Johnson was a undersized DT at Bama. His sacks in college were more a result of him using his quickness vs slower interior lineman then true pass rush abilities.

JJ was drafted more for his toughness, intangibles, and work ethic then to be a dominant pass rusher. It was Suggs who was drafted in the same year, who was brought in to be that dominant pass rusher.

JJ was converted from college DT to NFL OLB, and didn't get much playing time behind the better OLBs we already had. Peter B, AD and a young Suggs.

To be honest you might have been the only person to have those type of expectations of JJ coming out of college.

As down as some people seem to be on JJ, I'd actually say he's overachieved in his 8 NFL seasons. The guy just isn't a pass rusher, but he has been so good against the run and such a hard worker that once he got the starting job, nobody has been able to unseat him.

[wayne]

Yea, I love JJ heart and work ethic and play like a Raven attitude but that just hurts the hell out of a 3-4 defense when your starting OLB gets 1 sack on the year. The team has to find a pass rusher opposite of Suggs for our D to reach it's full potential. Pagano's scheme will hide the problem of having only one pass rusher on most QB's but when we face Brady, Manning, Brees....... OB's like that, we would need to drop 7 back in coverage alot of times and hope 4 can get the job done of pressuring the QB.

[Ravensfan23]

[quote name='Bullrush' timestamp='1308490160' post='698493']
Just came across this article, thought it was very interesting.


Check: [url="http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2011/06/19/terrell-suggs-dominant-defensive-end"]http://www.profootba...t-defensive-end[/url] for more.
[/quote]

It's interesting how a couple of years can change peoples perception of a player. When Suggs signed his big deal, you would have thought he was the most overrated OLB in the NFL, based off some of the comments made on this board.

He somewhat deserved the flack he got in 09, for showing up to camp out of shape. But for the most part, Suggs has been dominant throughout his career.

Suggs came out of ASU as a great pass rusher. However working hard to develop himself into a great run defender seemed to take away from his pass rush abilities some what. Double digit sacks in his first 2 seasons under Mike Nolan's 3-4, before developing into a much more run dominant OLB under Rex.

Now it seems like Sizzle has put it all together over the last few years, and is truly a complete package at the OLB position. Suggs actually sacrifices his sack totals at times, because he's such a complete OLB.

Plays like this one from the Jets game go unnoticed, [color="#4B0082"][url="http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2010091300/2010/REG1/ravens@jets#tab:watch"]My link[/url][/color]

Yea Ngata jacked up the OG, and sacked the QB, but look at Suggs on that play. He jacks LT us and sends him 10 yards in the wrong direction. Even if Sanchez doesn't get sacked, there's no way LT will make a play. Little things like that have just as much impact on a game as a sack at times. It isn't as glorified by fans and media, but I promise his coaches and team mates notice.

The only thing that Suggs is missing, is a partner in crime to take some of the attention away from him in obvious passing situations. Hopefully Kindle is that guy.

[PWNEDbyDEANO]

I'm counting on JJ to bounce back from that anomaly of a season that he has just suffered. I think that Suggs, a healthy JJ, a healthy Kindle and another FA pickup the pass rush could be fine.

A lot of maybe's in there but it could well happen.

[berad]

[quote name='Ravensfan23' timestamp='1308518007' post='698590']
It's interesting how a couple of years can change peoples perception of a player. When Suggs signed his big deal, you would have thought he was the most overrated OLB in the NFL, based off some of the comments made on this board.
[/quote]

He was fat, overrated, overpaid, and needed to be traded to ARZ - I remember it all

[Ravensfan23]

[quote name='wayne' timestamp='1308516990' post='698587']
Yea, I love JJ heart and work ethic and play like a Raven attitude but that just hurts the hell out of a 3-4 defense when your starting OLB gets 1 sack on the year. The team has to find a pass rusher opposite of Suggs for our D to reach it's full potential. Pagano's scheme will hide the problem of having only one pass rusher on most QB's but when we face Brady, Manning, Brees....... OB's like that, we would need to drop 7 back in coverage alot of times and hope 4 can get the job done of pressuring the QB.
[/quote]

Yea JJ is more of a 3-4 DE. He's great against the run, tough, hard nosed, and will out work anyone. He'd probably be one of those guys that despite low sack totals would be considered one of the better 3-4 DEs in the NFL.

1 sack from your OLB in a 3-4 is definitely not gonna cut it. Even in his more productive seasons from a pass rush stand point, his sacks came more on hustle plays then being a really good pass rusher.

[Ravensfan23]

[quote name='PWNEDbyDEANO' timestamp='1308518382' post='698592']
I'm counting on JJ to bounce back from that anomaly of a season that he has just suffered. I think that Suggs, a healthy JJ, a healthy Kindle and another FA pickup the pass rush could be fine.

A lot of maybe's in there but it could well happen.
[/quote]

The thing about JJ is, he's never been a strong pass rusher from the OLB position. Most of his success comes from the DT position, where he gets pressure moreso then sacks.

So JJ being healthy would be a good thing for the Ravens defense, but don't expect a huge season, in terms of numbers, from JJ.

Kindle I agree on. As for the FA pickup, I honestly think we'll be better off putting some of these young guy in a position to excel in Pagano's system. Kruger, Jones, McClain, Gooden, Ellerbe, Nakamura, Zibby, and Webb blitzing.

I think that's the routes we'll go from a pass rush standpoint.

[PWNEDbyDEANO]

[quote name='Ravensfan23' timestamp='1308519401' post='698600']
The thing about JJ is, he's never been a strong pass rusher from the OLB position. Most of his success comes from the DT position, where he gets pressure moreso then sacks.

So JJ being healthy would be a good thing for the Ravens defense, but don't expect a huge season, in terms of numbers, from JJ.

Kindle I agree on. As for the FA pickup, I honestly think we'll be better off putting some of these young guy in a position to excel in Pagano's system. Kruger, Jones, McClain, Gooden, Ellerbe, Nakamura, Zibby, and Webb blitzing.

I think that's the routes we'll go from a pass rush standpoint.
[/quote]

Yeah I agree about JJ in terms of numbers. I would expect his usual 5-7 sacks from him this year. Add in another 5 or so sacks from Kindle (best case scenario there) and another couple from the guys you mentioned and we could see a big improvement in the sack column.

[Ravensfan23]

[quote name='PWNEDbyDEANO' timestamp='1308519854' post='698603']
Yeah I agree about JJ in terms of numbers. [b]I would expect his usual 5-7 sacks from him this year[/b]. Add in another 5 or so sacks from Kindle (best case scenario there) and another couple from the guys you mentioned and we could see a big improvement in the sack column.
[/quote]

That's just the thing though. JJ isn't a 5-7 sack kinda guy. In his 8 NFL seasons, he's only had 5+ sacks twice. That was 08 and 09. Now it can be said that JJ was coming into his own as a pass rusher before being injured late 09.

But in honesty, I think if JJ gets 5+ sacks this season then it should be considered a great season, by his standards.

[PWNEDbyDEANO]

[quote name='Ravensfan23' timestamp='1308520614' post='698606']
That's just the thing though. JJ isn't a 5-7 sack kinda guy. In his 8 NFL seasons, he's only had 5+ sacks twice. That was 08 and 09. Now it can be said that JJ was coming into his own as a pass rusher before being injured late 09.

But in honesty, I think if JJ gets 5+ sacks this season then it should be considered a great season, by his standards.
[/quote]

I think he could well get that number of sacks, provided he returns to pre-2010 form. I would have to agree that it would be an impressive season for him to do so, but not unrealistic by any means.

Even if his numbers aren't great, they must surely improve upon last year, when it was obvious that he was hurt. It showed up in the figures and on the field and our D suffered with him.

[Bmoresun]

[quote name='Ravensfan23' timestamp='1308516189' post='698585']
Jarrett Johnson was a undersized DT at Bama. His sacks in college were more a result of him using his quickness vs slower interior lineman then true pass rush abilities.

JJ was drafted more for his toughness, intangibles, and work ethic then to be a dominant pass rusher. It was Suggs who was drafted in the same year, who was brought in to be that dominant pass rusher.

JJ was converted from college DT to NFL OLB, and didn't get much playing time behind the better OLBs we already had. Peter B, AD and a young Suggs.

To be honest you might have been the only person to have those type of expectations of JJ coming out of college.

As down as some people seem to be on JJ, I'd actually say he's overachieved in his 8 NFL seasons. The guy just isn't a pass rusher, but he has been so good against the run and such a hard worker that once he got the starting job, nobody has been able to unseat him.
[/quote]

Yeah I'm the only one who expected a DT from a top SEC school who left with 23 sacks and 25 tackles for loss to be a successful pass rusher in the Pro's, just me, the Ravens organization, and several experts, but whats that matter?

And JJ played DE for the Ravens before he was converted to OLB.

I never said i expected the man to be a Hall of Famer, or even Pro Bowler, but out of College JJ had a awesome motor, and great quickness, and many people both in and out of our organization DID expect JJ to be a competent pass rusher. I never said I thought he would lead the league in sacks, but he has been very disappointing as a pass rusher, which he most definitely was in college; and your delusional if you don't think we drafted him to be a pass rusher.

Now maybe he has overachieved as a player, but who has challenged him for his spot? Antwan Barnes, Prescott Burgess, Edgar Jones, Paul Kruger? He hasn't proved much except he is better than anyone else we have had until possibly Kindle. But, your missing the point the guy was drafted to fit our 4-3 defense, in which he was to be a DE, a capable pass rushing DE; he has never been that; or been a pass rusher from the OLB position, so in that respect he has disappointed. Now if you wanna say he has overachieved because he beat out some scrubs for the starting ROLB position go ahead.

[berad]

Johnson was most definitely a DT coming out of Alabama. An undersized DT, but primarily a defensive tackle, nonetheless.

[Ravensfan23]

[quote name='PWNEDbyDEANO' timestamp='1308521715' post='698609']
I think he could well get that number of sacks, provided he returns to pre-2010 form. I would have to agree that it would be an impressive season for him to do so, but not unrealistic by any means.

Even if his numbers aren't great, they must surely improve upon last year, when it was obvious that he was hurt. It showed up in the figures and on the field and our D suffered with him.
[/quote]

Oh yea him getting 5+ sacks is definitely possible, and would be much needed if he did that. But I'd bet my money on Ngata producing double digit sacks this season, before i relied on JJ to be a constant presence in the pass rush.

[Ravensfan23]

[quote name='Bmoresun' timestamp='1308522092' post='698610']
Yeah I'm the only one who expected a DT from a top SEC school who left with 23 sacks and 25 tackles for loss to be a successful pass rusher in the Pro's, just me, the Ravens organization, and several experts, but whats that matter?

And JJ played DE for the Ravens before he was converted to OLB.

I never said i expected the man to be a Hall of Famer, or even Pro Bowler, but out of College JJ had a awesome motor, and great quickness, and many people both in and out of our organization DID expect JJ to be a competent pass rusher. I never said I thought he would lead the league in sacks, but he has been very disappointing as a pass rusher, which he most definitely was in college; and your delusional if you don't think we drafted him to be a pass rusher.

Now maybe he has overachieved as a player, but who has challenged him for his spot? Antwan Barnes, Prescott Burgess, Edgar Jones, Paul Kruger? He hasn't proved much except he is better than anyone else we have had until possibly Kindle. But, your missing the point the guy was drafted to fit our 4-3 defense, in which he was to be a DE, a capable pass rushing DE; he has never been that; or been a pass rusher from the OLB position, so in that respect he has disappointed. Now if you wanna say he has overachieved because he beat out some scrubs for the starting ROLB position go ahead.
[/quote]

I can't be missing the point because the Ravens had moved away from the 4-3 defense for full season before JJ was drafted. Mike Nolan was always a 3-4 DC and he took over in 2002. JJ was drafted the same season as Suggs in 2003. Anthony Weaver was drafted in 2002 to be our 5 Technique in the 3-4 our defense was converting to, so why would we draft JJ to be a 4-3 DE. I guess Ozzie just knew that 7 years later we would hire Greg Mattison and his 4-3 sytle and they planed ahead with JJ, right?

As for what the Ravens expected, there is no doubt the were expecting at least a decent pass rush from him. However you're exact words were, You thought JJ would be a Monster 4-3 DE. That is not what the Ravens drafted him for. He was viewed as a guy that could possibly be converted to OLB like we did with many of our other young players, serve as a backup and hopefully develop into a starter down the road. If he didn't pan out as a 3-4 DE.

When JJ was drafted in 2003, the Ravens give JJ snaps at Dline and a couple at OLB. The reports of him not being strong enough to hold up on the Dline consistently were true, so the next season the conversion to OLB took place.

Overachieving doesn't mean you're a great player. It just means you have outperformed what the expectations of you were. Now if you thought that JJ would be a "Monster" pass rusher, then no he has not overachieved. In fact he hasn't lived up to the hype.

But if you view JJ as a college DT, who made the conversion to OLB, has played and started in every game since being named the starter for one of the better defenses in the NFL, has played really well against the run and solid in pass coverage, then yes he has overachieved.

Would you like more pass rush from him, of course, but at this point you pretty much know that's not his game. So guys like Kruger and Kindle are drafted.

[Ed_Reed20]

It's great to see PFF publish this article.

I've seen Suggs get some high praise for his play against the run for years now. His pass rushing numbers last season being so efficient and how he performed in coverage getting positive marks just makes his 2010 season even more impressive. I know I'll never forgot how well he played against the Steelers in Week 13 and against the Falcons.

With a consistent pass rushing force opposite him, he'll definitely rack up even more sacks, pressures and QB hits.

[PWNEDbyDEANO]

[quote name='Ravensfan23' timestamp='1308530004' post='698630']
Oh yea him getting 5+ sacks is definitely possible, and would be much needed if he did that. But I'd bet my money on Ngata producing double digit sacks this season, before i relied on JJ to be a constant presence in the pass rush.
[/quote]

I think that the chances of Ngata getting a higher sack count than JJ is highly possible too (which says a lot about how good Ngata is), but double digit sacks would be nothing short of insane.

I hope that Ngata is as good as last season again, but at the same time I hope that he isn't second leader in sacks on our team by at least 4 IIRC.

[Ravensfan23]

[quote name='PWNEDbyDEANO' timestamp='1308567692' post='698700']
I think that the chances of Ngata getting a higher sack count than JJ is highly possible too (which says a lot about how good Ngata is), but double digit sacks would be nothing short of insane.

I hope that Ngata is as good as last season again, but at the same time I hope that he isn't second leader in sacks on our team by at least 4 IIRC.
[/quote]

I don't think it's as insane as it sounds. Ngata is definitely one of the best players at his position in the NFL, and there is nothing I'd say he can't do.

However I think you made the biggest point yourself. Ngata was our second leading sack man with 5.5 last season. So he commanded extra attention in that area.

If you remember, in Training Camp last year was the first time that Ngata and the Ravens really started focusing on him being more of a pass rusher. And in year one he produced 5.5 sacks. I expect Ngata to continue to develop his pass rush techniques and get even better as a pass rusher.

Also 5 of Ngata total 5.5 sacks came over the first 8 games of the season last year. Because of the extra attention being 1 of only 2 threats as a pass rusher, Ngata didn't see a lot of opportunities over the last 8 games.

However if Kindle can provide the rush we need coming from the other side of Suggs, and Pagano is as aggressive as he says, then Ngata will be matched up one on one a lot more this season.

Now will that result into double digit sacks for Ngata, I can't say it definitely will. But if our secondary improve like i think they will, and the pass rush improves, I wouldn't be surprised at all to see Ngata in that 8-10 sack range.

[PWNEDbyDEANO]

[quote name='Ravensfan23' timestamp='1308576233' post='698706']
I don't think it's as insane as it sounds. Ngata is definitely one of the best players at his position in the NFL, and there is nothing I'd say he can't do.

However I think you made the biggest point yourself. Ngata was our second leading sack man with 5.5 last season. So he commanded extra attention in that area.

If you remember, in Training Camp last year was the first time that Ngata and the Ravens really started focusing on him being more of a pass rusher. And in year one he produced 5.5 sacks. I expect Ngata to continue to develop his pass rush techniques and get even better as a pass rusher.

Also 5 of Ngata total 5.5 sacks came over the first 8 games of the season last year. Because of the extra attention being 1 of only 2 threats as a pass rusher, Ngata didn't see a lot of opportunities over the last 8 games.

However if Kindle can provide the rush we need coming from the other side of Suggs, and Pagano is as aggressive as he says, then Ngata will be matched up one on one a lot more this season.

Now will that result into double digit sacks for Ngata, I can't say it definitely will. But if our secondary improve like i think they will, and the pass rush improves, I wouldn't be surprised at all to see Ngata in that 8-10 sack range.
[/quote]

That's a fair assumption then. I think that the added pressure on opposing offenses in the form of multiple threats from Kindle and JJ, not to mention that Cody will hopefully be commanding the double team also, Ngata (and Suggs as well) could well thrive on it and his sack tally could soar. I do think that people will not leave Ngata 1-on-1 too often though. Like you say though, it remains to be seen, but Ngata is every bit as talented and a threat as any defensive linesman in the league so there is every possibility.

[Bullrush]

Well, according to that site JJ currently is the 6th worst pass rusher in the league.

[url="http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2011/06/20/three-years-of-pass-rushing-productivity-edge-rushers/"]http://www.profootba...y-edge-rushers/[/url]

Antwan Barnes btw was the 6th most productive pass rusher last season.

[PurpleReign92]

[quote name='Bullrush' timestamp='1308583701' post='698752']
Well, according to that site JJ currently is the 6th worst pass rusher in the league.

[url="http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2011/06/20/three-years-of-pass-rushing-productivity-edge-rushers/"]http://www.profootba...y-edge-rushers/[/url]

Antwan Barnes btw was the 6th most productive pass rusher last season.
[/quote]
How is JJ on speed?

[BloodRaven]

Yes, Suggs is a rare dominant player in both phases of the game.

One thing no one has brought up yet is his age, he's 28 and has had a huge workload since he was drafted. He could be on a serious decline within two years.

[-Truth-]

[quote name='Bullrush' timestamp='1308583701' post='698752']
Well, according to that site JJ currently is the 6th worst pass rusher in the league.

[url="http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2011/06/20/three-years-of-pass-rushing-productivity-edge-rushers/"]http://www.profootba...y-edge-rushers/[/url]

Antwan Barnes btw was the 6th most productive pass rusher last season.
[/quote]
What stands out to me is that Johnson also ranks 6th worst since 2008. Yikes.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='BloodRaven' timestamp='1308638322' post='699114']
Yes, Suggs is a rare dominant player in both phases of the game.

[b]One thing no one has brought up yet is his age, he's 28 and has had a huge workload since he was drafted. He could be on a serious decline within two years.[/b]
[/quote]

I think Suggs can still produce at a high level for three or four years. There's tread on his tires but he's been very durable during his career and we frequently see great offensive and d-lineman playing well well into their thirties.