ESPN's KC Joyner: Why Flacco Is As Good As Rivers

[PWNEDbyDEANO]

[quote name='Bmoresun' timestamp='1308515187' post='698582']
I must have said like ten times I still think Flacco can win us a Superbowl. A team doesn't need Manning, Rivers, or Brady to win the Superbowl; sure it helps but its not necessary, and I have never said he can't be a leader.

All I'm saying is that Flacco, is not and never will be on the same level as Brady, Manning, Rivers, or Brees. AND that is ok, because teams still win without elite QBs.

You people act like that is the worst accusation ever, as if I'm comparing Flacco to Boller or something. Hasselbeck and Delhomme both had great careers in the league and both got there shot at the Superbowl, but they are not on the same level as Brady or Manning. Joe can get us there and he can help win it for us. But, soon all of you will have to realize that our QB is not Rivers, its Flacco, stop trying to make the man someone he is not.
[/quote]

I'm not going to shoot you down or anything here, but what makes you so sure about Joe? Why don't you think he has a chance of being an elite QB?

[Ravensfan23]

[quote name='Bmoresun' timestamp='1308515187' post='698582']
I must have said like ten times I still think Flacco can win us a Superbowl. A team doesn't need Manning, Rivers, or Brady to win the Superbowl; sure it helps but its not necessary, and I have never said he can't be a leader.

All I'm saying is that Flacco, is not and never will be on the same level as Brady, Manning, Rivers, or Brees. AND that is ok, because teams still win without elite QBs.

You people act like that is the worst accusation ever, as if I'm comparing Flacco to Boller or something. Hasselbeck and Delhomme both had great careers in the league and both got there shot at the Superbowl, but they are not on the same level as Brady or Manning. Joe can get us there and he can help win it for us. But, soon all of you will have to realize that our QB is not Rivers, its Flacco, stop trying to make the man someone he is not.
[/quote]

You're obviously a strong minded person, so trying to change your mind is pointless. However I think the issue most people have is not, that you say Joe isn't a good QB or won't win a SuperBowl, It's when you say that Flacco will never be an elite QB viewed in the same light as the top 4-5 QBs in the NFL right now.

Looking at Flacco's first 3 years, compared to Manning, Brees, Brady, Rivers and Roders, what makes you think that Flacco will "NEVER" develop into the level those guys are currently on?

I think everyone will agree that we don't need Joe to be Peyton or Tom, but that doesn't mean that he'll never be able to perform that their level.

[flynismo]

,[quote name='Ravensfan23' timestamp='1308520239' post='698604']<br />You're obviously a strong minded person, so trying to change your mind is pointless. However I think the issue most people have is not,  that you say Joe isn't a good QB or won't win a SuperBowl, It's when you say that Flacco will never be an elite QB viewed in the same light as the top 4-5 QBs in the NFL right now.<br /><br />Looking at Flacco's first 3 years, compared to Manning, Brees, Brady, Rivers and Roders, what makes you think that Flacco will &quot;NEVER&quot; develop into the level those guys are currently on? <br /><br />I think everyone will agree that we don't need Joe to be Peyton or Tom, but that doesn't mean that he'll never be able to perform that their level.<br />[/quote]


to add on that, Flacco out performed Manning on a per-pass-attempt basis. The main reason Manning had more TD and yards is simply because he threw the ball over 100 times more than Flacco did.
So, he's on par with Rivers as a deep passer, and was more efficient than Manning.

Anyone who thinks Flacco will never be elite have little facts to stand on. It's nothing but pure speculation.
Saying Flacco COULD be elite is also speculation, but at least there are stats to back it up with.,,,,

[Bmoresun]

[quote name='PWNEDbyDEANO' timestamp='1308519021' post='698597']
I'm not going to shoot you down or anything here, but what makes you so sure about Joe? Why don't you think he has a chance of being an elite QB?
[/quote]

Let me begin by saying, Thanks for asking, you are the first person who has actually asked me why I think this.

I will start by saying i think Joe is a top fifteen QB in this league, and a good player. That being said, the guy has amongst the worst pocket presence I have ever seen. I couldn't count the amount of times Ive seen the guy drop back stand there while pressure approaches and instead of stepping up in the pocket falls further back, and either lobs up a pass or gets sacked. He Consistently fails to successfully maneuver the pocket well.

Secondly his pre-snap reads, and audibles are amateur; Joe displays almost no ability to recognize what defenses are doing, and make adjustments at the line. His offensive flexibility is terrible. This is something that all elite QBs do every game.

Thirdly I can't recall a QB having such a complete break down against a specific defense as Joe has agaisnt the cover two. To illustrate this point i will reference two different scenarios, the first being the Bengals game last season, they used the same cover two defense almost the entire game a Joe looked like a lost child throwing four picks. The second being last season agaisnt the Patriots when we were up by ten in the fourth quarter, the Pats changed defenses to a Cover Two and once again Joe was helpless. You just don't see those kinds of breakdowns in elite Qb's sure all Qbs will have a bad game here and there, but Joe looks consistently helpless against the cover two.

I'm not debating the guys arm strength or accuracy, but I don't believe its all there for him to reach that elite level, as I discussed in a different post, for QB's like Manning, Brees, Rivers, and Brady it doesn't matter who they have around them it could be a 4th string wide out, and a 3rd string Tight End, they still manage to be incredibly successful and get players the ball. I don't see Joe exerting such talent.

AS stated before, he is a good QB, we can win the Superbowl with him, but i doubt he will ever reach an elite level. Only time will tell; however, from what I have seen I'm very confident in my stance, I know all the stats, his playoff record, etc. Time will tell, but honestly thanks for actually asking.

[Bmoresun]

[quote name='Ravensfan23' timestamp='1308520239' post='698604']
You're obviously a strong minded person, so trying to change your mind is pointless. However I think the issue most people have is not, that you say Joe isn't a good QB or won't win a SuperBowl, It's when you say that Flacco will never be an elite QB viewed in the same light as the top 4-5 QBs in the NFL right now.

Looking at Flacco's first 3 years, compared to Manning, Brees, Brady, Rivers and Roders, what makes you think that Flacco will "NEVER" develop into the level those guys are currently on?

I think everyone will agree that we don't need Joe to be Peyton or Tom, but that doesn't mean that he'll never be able to perform that their level.
[/quote]

I'm definitely not the only one here who is strong minded, the only difference is what I'm saying isn't what everyone wants to hear. It's like a person can't have a differing opinion here, or say something negative without getting bashed by half the forum.

[Bmoresun]

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1308522452' post='698611']
,


to add on that, Flacco out performed Manning on a per-pass-attempt basis. The main reason Manning had more TD and yards is simply because he threw the ball over 100 times more than Flacco did.
So, he's on par with Rivers as a deep passer, and was more efficient than Manning.

Anyone who thinks Flacco will never be elite have little facts to stand on. It's nothing but pure speculation.
Saying Flacco COULD be elite is also speculation, but at least there are stats to back it up with.,,,,
[/quote]

Just because a player has similar stats doesn't guarantee anything, you know who else had Brady, Rivers, and Brees like stats their first few seasons?

Derek Anderson
Marc Bulger
Chad Henne
Matt Hasselbeck
Chad Pennington
David Garrard
Matt Cassell
Donovan McNabb
Josh Freeman
Jason Campbell
Jake Delhomme
ETC........

The difference between those QB's and Manning, Brady, Rivers, Brees, is pretty profound, just because some of their early seasons are statisticly similar means nothing, TIME will determine which speculation is correct.

[Ravensfan23]

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1308522452' post='698611']
,


to add on that, Flacco out performed Manning on a per-pass-attempt basis. The main reason Manning had more TD and yards is simply because he threw the ball over 100 times more than Flacco did.
So, he's on par with Rivers as a deep passer, and was more efficient than Manning.

Anyone who thinks Flacco will never be elite have little facts to stand on. It's nothing but pure speculation.
Saying Flacco COULD be elite is also speculation, but at least there are stats to back it up with.,,,,
[/quote]

Yea not to mention it took Peyton Manning 6 years to win his first playoff game. In his 3 playoff loses before his first win. Peyton didn't have a game where he complete 60% of his passes. People talk about Joe playing poor in his playoff loses. Peyton had passer rating of 62.3, 82.0 and 31.2, that's clearly an Elite QB after 5 seasons of starting.

People talk about how bad Flacco played in his first AFCCG. Yea he played bad as a rookie. However Peyton was in his 6th NFL season when he made his first AFCCG and what did he do? 23/47 48.9% 237yds 5.0ypp 1TD 4Ints 35.5 passer rating. Maybe we as Ravens fans shouldn't want Joe to be in the Manning class. haha.

It's funny how the media can shape peoples beliefs on a player. After only 3 years, people ask can Flacco win a Super Bowl or is he a Franchise QB. Yet it takes Peyton Manning 6 years to win his first playoff game, and once he gets to his first AFCCG, he plays like crap, yet he's always been considered Elite.

[Ravensfan23]

[quote name='Bmoresun' timestamp='1308525647' post='698618']
Just because a player has similar stats doesn't guarantee anything, you know who else had Brady, Rivers, and Brees like stats their first few seasons?

Derek Anderson
Marc Bulger
Chad Henne
Matt Hasselbeck
Chad Pennington
David Garrard
Matt Cassell
Donovan McNabb
Josh Freeman
Jason Campbell
Jake Delhomme
ETC........

The difference between those QB's and Manning, Brady, Rivers, Brees, is pretty profound, just because some of their early seasons are statisticly similar means nothing, TIME will determine which speculation is correct.
[/quote]

I agree with you that stats aren't everything. However where you loss me is the list of QB having the same success as Manning Brady, Rivers, Brees in their early seasons. Brees was a late bloomer so i won't count him, however none of those guys you listed had the success of Flacco in their early years, let alone the like of the elite QBs you named.

All of those above average QBs you named, had flash in the pan seasons, but none of them were even close to being as consistently and progressed as steadily as Flacco has.

With the exception of McNabb, none of those guys even played as much as Flacco in their first 3 seasons. So that comparison just doesn't work.

To be honest it sounds like you have Joe Flacco stuck in a box, and pegged as a QB that is as good as he'll ever get right now. All the things you named in your previous post as dislikes about Flacco are things that every QB gets better at as they develop more.

The fact of the matter is, while stats aren't everything. You don't produce at a high level in the NFL at the QB position if you aren't good. More then any other position, your numbers define you as a QB. You'll never see a QB post the type of numbers the elite QBs post on a consistent bases and people label him as a bust, or just an average player. Brett Favre wasn't the prettiest QB to play the game, numbers wise you probably wouldn't even call him one of the best, but the fact of the matter was the guy just got it done.

We've both agreed that Flacco doesn't have to be elite to win a super bowl. However, If Joe continues to progress at the rate he's going. And his numbers continue to rival those of the other Elite QBs in the NFL, like they do now, and Flacco does get a Super Bowl win under his belt, there is no way he won't be considered elite.

[flynismo]

,[quote name='Bmoresun' timestamp='1308523669' post='698613']<br />Let me begin by saying, Thanks for asking, you are the first person who has actually asked me why I think this. <br /><br />I will start by saying i think Joe is a top fifteen QB in this league, and a good player. That being said, the guy has amongst the worst pocket presence I have ever seen. I couldn't count the amount of times Ive seen the guy drop back stand there while pressure approaches and instead of stepping up in the pocket falls further back, and either lobs up a pass or gets sacked. He Consistently fails to successfully maneuver the pocket well. <br /><br />Secondly his pre-snap reads, and audibles are amateur; Joe displays almost no ability to recognize what defenses are doing, and make adjustments at the line. His offensive flexibility is terrible. This is something that all elite QBs do every game.<br /><br />Thirdly I can't recall a QB having such a complete break down against a specific defense as Joe has agaisnt the cover two. To illustrate this point i will reference two different scenarios, the first being the Bengals game last season, they used the same cover two defense almost the entire game a Joe looked like a lost child throwing four picks. The second being last season agaisnt the Patriots when we were up by ten in the fourth quarter, the Pats changed defenses to a Cover Two and once again Joe was helpless.  You just don't see those kinds of breakdowns in elite Qb's sure all Qbs will have a bad game here and there, but Joe looks consistently helpless against the cover two. <br /><br />I'm not debating the guys arm strength or accuracy, but I don't believe its all there for him to reach that elite level, as I discussed in a different post, for QB's like Manning, Brees, Rivers, and Brady it doesn't matter who they have around them it could be a 4th string wide out, and a 3rd string Tight End, they still manage to be incredibly successful and get players the ball.  I don't see Joe exerting such talent. <br /><br />AS stated before, he is a good QB, we can win the Superbowl with him, but i doubt he will ever reach an elite level. Only time will tell; however, from what I have seen I'm very confident in my stance, I know all the stats, his playoff record, etc. Time will tell, but honestly thanks for actually asking.<br />[/quote]


my big (and really only) knock on Flacco is that he really needs to improve on his pre-snap reads. It doesn't stop at the cover 2, he needs to make decisions more before the ball is snapped.

As for his movement in the pocket, I thoroughly disagree. He does muff up at times in the pocket, but for the most part he does a great job improvising and extending plays.,,,,,,,,

[Ravensfan23]

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1308529977' post='698629']
,


my big (and really only) knock on Flacco is that he really needs to improve on his pre-snap reads. It doesn't stop at the cover 2, he needs to make decisions more before the ball is snapped.

As for his movement in the pocket, I thoroughly disagree. He does muff up at times in the pocket, but for the most part he does a great job improvising and extending plays.,,,,,,,,
[/quote]

Yea Flacco definitely has to improve pre-snap and that's one of the main reasons why i personally didn't have a issue with Cam and the Ravens not given Flacco full control of the offense last season. I just don't think he was ready.

[PWNEDbyDEANO]

[quote name='Bmoresun' timestamp='1308523669' post='698613']
Let me begin by saying, Thanks for asking, you are the first person who has actually asked me why I think this.

I will start by saying i think Joe is a top fifteen QB in this league, and a good player. That being said, the guy has amongst the worst pocket presence I have ever seen. I couldn't count the amount of times Ive seen the guy drop back stand there while pressure approaches and instead of stepping up in the pocket falls further back, and either lobs up a pass or gets sacked. He Consistently fails to successfully maneuver the pocket well.

Secondly his pre-snap reads, and audibles are amateur; Joe displays almost no ability to recognize what defenses are doing, and make adjustments at the line. His offensive flexibility is terrible. This is something that all elite QBs do every game.

Thirdly I can't recall a QB having such a complete break down against a specific defense as Joe has agaisnt the cover two. To illustrate this point i will reference two different scenarios, the first being the Bengals game last season, they used the same cover two defense almost the entire game a Joe looked like a lost child throwing four picks. The second being last season agaisnt the Patriots when we were up by ten in the fourth quarter, the Pats changed defenses to a Cover Two and once again Joe was helpless. You just don't see those kinds of breakdowns in elite Qb's sure all Qbs will have a bad game here and there, but Joe looks consistently helpless against the cover two.

I'm not debating the guys arm strength or accuracy, but I don't believe its all there for him to reach that elite level, as I discussed in a different post, for QB's like Manning, Brees, Rivers, and Brady it doesn't matter who they have around them it could be a 4th string wide out, and a 3rd string Tight End, they still manage to be incredibly successful and get players the ball. I don't see Joe exerting such talent.

AS stated before, he is a good QB, we can win the Superbowl with him, but i doubt he will ever reach an elite level. Only time will tell; however, from what I have seen I'm very confident in my stance, I know all the stats, his playoff record, etc. Time will tell, but honestly thanks for actually asking.
[/quote]

I agree with you on his faults. That he is very poor against the cover two and he makes poor decisions when he is flustered is a very serious problem. I think that there is a good chance that he could grow out of that however. His development and success so far makes me believe that it is too early to make a solid argument that he definitely won't be elite.

[Ravensfan23]

[quote name='PWNEDbyDEANO' timestamp='1308569965' post='698702']
I agree with you on his faults. That he is very poor against the cover two and he makes poor decisions when he is flustered is a very serious problem. I think that there is a good chance that he could grow out of that however. [b]His development and success so far makes me believe that it is too early to make a solid argument that he definitely won't be elite.[/b]
[/quote]

I think it's also too early to say Flacco definitely will be elite as well. Because of some of flaws, but the promise is there.

The talent, progression, and potential he's shown so far, is what has most Ravens fans excited about Flacco joining the Ranks of the Elite, sometime real soon.

I also agreed with Bmoresun's list of faults for Flacco. He definitely still has some improving to do as a QB, but I think the point that most of the members in the Flock try to point out is, name one "Elite" QB that doesn't have his flaws, and didn't need to improve on something in their 3rd NFL season?

Peyton struggled with the 3-4 defense.

Brady struggled with handling pressure much like Joe does. Hell some might even look at the 2009 playoff game against the Ravens and say Brady still hasn't improved in that area.

Rivers struggled with his decision making and accuracy. Not to mention the maturity factor.

Brees was a late bloomer. He struggled with his decision making, timing, accuracy, and downfield passing. Even though Drew is one of the best, when you watch him play, you still see some of those flaws surface.

So yea, Flacco has his flaws and faults right now, but to use them and say he'll never become elite because of them is kind of tough to say. imo

[PWNEDbyDEANO]

[quote name='Ravensfan23' timestamp='1308574687' post='698705']
I think it's also too early to say Flacco definitely will be elite as well. Because of some of flaws, but the promise is there.

The talent, progression, and potential he's shown so far, is what has most Ravens fans excited about Flacco joining the Ranks of the Elite, sometime real soon.

I also agreed with Bmoresun's list of faults for Flacco. He definitely still has some improving to do as a QB, but I think the point that most of the members in the Flock try to point out is, name one "Elite" QB that doesn't have his flaws, and didn't need to improve on something in their 3rd NFL season?

Peyton struggled with the 3-4 defense.

Brady struggled with handling pressure much like Joe does. Hell some might even look at the 2009 playoff game against the Ravens and say Brady still hasn't improved in that area.

Rivers struggled with his decision making and accuracy. Not to mention the maturity factor.

Brees was a late bloomer. He struggled with his decision making, timing, accuracy, and downfield passing. Even though Drew is one of the best, when you watch him play, you still see some of those flaws surface.

So yea, Flacco has his flaws and faults right now, but to use them and say he'll never become elite because of them is kind of tough to say. imo
[/quote]

I totally agree. If I had to summarize my feelings about Flacco it would be that he has been very successful for a young QB, but he has a lot to improve upon. There is potential for him to reach that truly elite level but he does have flaws which he needs to work out of his game first. He is a franchise QB, despite a rather widely shared opinion that he hasn't proven that yet.

[H8R]

Yup, Rivers is still a PUNK.

Just checking.

[JohnJohnson]

Flacco will show you...he'll show ALL OF YOU!!!!

[-Truth-]

[quote name='Ravensfan23' timestamp='1308529780' post='698628']
I agree with you that stats aren't everything. However where you loss me is the list of QB having the same success as Manning Brady, Rivers, Brees in their early seasons. Brees was a late bloomer so i won't count him, however none of those guys you listed had the success of Flacco in their early years, let alone the like of the elite QBs you named.

All of those above average QBs you named, had flash in the pan seasons, but none of them were even close to being as consistently and progressed as steadily as Flacco has.

With the exception of McNabb, none of those guys even played as much as Flacco in their first 3 seasons. So that comparison just doesn't work.

To be honest it sounds like you have Joe Flacco stuck in a box, and pegged as a QB that is as good as he'll ever get right now. All the things you named in your previous post as dislikes about Flacco are things that every QB gets better at as they develop more.

The fact of the matter is, while stats aren't everything. You don't produce at a high level in the NFL at the QB position if you aren't good. More then any other position, your numbers define you as a QB. You'll never see a QB post the type of numbers the elite QBs post on a consistent bases and people label him as a bust, or just an average player. Brett Favre wasn't the prettiest QB to play the game, numbers wise you probably wouldn't even call him one of the best, but the fact of the matter was the guy just got it done.

We've both agreed that Flacco doesn't have to be elite to win a super bowl. However, If Joe continues to progress at the rate he's going. And his numbers continue to rival those of the other Elite QBs in the NFL, like they do now, and Flacco does get a Super Bowl win under his belt, there is no way he won't be considered elite.
[/quote]
Completely agree, especially regarding the list. Still baffled at the likes of Derek Anderson, Chad Henne and Jason Campbell being on that list. Out of all 3, Anderson's sole 2007 season could be comparable to that of Brady, Rivers and Brees-like outputs.

[1/28/01]

[quote name='-Truth-' timestamp='1308589148' post='698776']
Completely agree, especially regarding the list. Still baffled at the likes of Derek Anderson, Chad Henne and Jason Campbell being on that list. Out of all 3, Anderson's sole 2007 season could be comparable to that of Brady, Rivers and Brees-like outputs.
[/quote]
Guys, look at the individual on the other side of this "debate". Its just for laughs!!

[Ravensfan23]

[quote name='1/28/01' timestamp='1308590098' post='698778']
Guys, look at the individual on the other side of this "debate". Its just for laughs!!
[/quote]

Oh it really doesn't matter to me who's on the other side. IMO the "debate" was over a long time ago.

Me personally, I just enjoy talking football so much, that I'll talk it with anyone until they prove incompetent.

In a thread like this, when i post stats, and other things, it's not necessarily to try to prove a individual like Bmoresun wrong, or get him to change his mind. It's moreso for other fans who may feel alot like Bmoresun, but aren't truly sure just how much Flacco stacks up to the other great QBs. To compare Flacco in his 3rd year to Manning and Brady in their 10+ seasons, just isn't very smart.

Whenever you have a person criticize a article that they didn't even bother reading, then you pretty much know that's getting involved with that person will be just for laughs.

[Bmoresun]

[quote name='PWNEDbyDEANO' timestamp='1308569965' post='698702']
I agree with you on his faults. That he is very poor against the cover two and he makes poor decisions when he is flustered is a very serious problem. I think that there is a good chance that he could grow out of that however. His development and success so far makes me believe that it is too early to make a solid argument that he definitely won't be elite.
[/quote]

I listed my reasons, many of you think he will overcome these faults, I think he will never be elite, this is the last I'm saying about this issue until the regular season is underway. Time will give us answers.

[Guest ArmyRaven52]

I will be the first to admit that I am no NFL coach or anything but correct me if i am wrong. Speed kills the zone, if they want to run a cover 2 zone and Torrey blows the top off then they have to resort to a man scheme. If opponents have to respect a deep threat then even if they want to use a man zone scheme the zones and soft spots become a lot bigger. Take Cincy for example if they were to put Leon Hall or Jonathan Joseph on Torrey to respect the deep threat then eventually you are going to have a nickel corner playing against either Boldin or mason or maybe even doss which could be a huge mismatch especially if we actually do put Boldin in the slot. This brings me to another point if you have a true speed receiver as we do then may be we should run more four receiver sets. If you have Torrey on one side running a deep post the zone will have to change or he is going to end up blowing past the deep safety and it is a disaster for other teams. If they resort to man zone then as stated eventually against 4 receivers one going deep then three to work against a number 1 corner in a zone, one against the nickel, and one on a safety or line backer which reduces the pressure, and if they do blitz Joe should be able to find an open receiver with two possible mismatches. And we all now with 4 wideouts we can put Rice in their and run checkdowns one blitzes or give us a draw option which would leave a one on one situation with RR and an LB. Giving Joe the tools is great because now he may actually have the tools to take away the option to just zone use out. I am not saying now that we a have a speed receiver we will become unstoppable, but it is going to make running a zone a lot harder to do, which alleviates one of Joes flaw's. If we run the four wide receiver sets (hopefully we resign Yanda and Gaither) I have faith that our line can give Joe enough time to find somebody open or hit a check down to rice or maybe a slant to Boldin or Doss.

[Bmoresun]

[quote name='Ravensfan23' timestamp='1308591297' post='698781']
Oh it really doesn't matter to me who's on the other side. IMO the "debate" was over a long time ago.

Me personally, I just enjoy talking football so much, that I'll talk it with anyone until they prove incompetent.

In a thread like this, when i post stats, and other things, it's not necessarily to try to prove a individual like Bmoresun wrong, or get him to change his mind. It's moreso for other fans who may feel alot like Bmoresun, but aren't truly sure just how much Flacco stacks up to the other great QBs. To compare Flacco in his 3rd year to Manning and Brady in their 10+ seasons, just isn't very smart.

Whenever you have a person criticize a article that they didn't even bother reading, then you pretty much know that's getting involved with that person will be just for laughs.
[/quote]

Wow kid, you missed the entire point.

[Bmoresun]

[quote name='Ravensfan23' timestamp='1308529780' post='698628']
I agree with you that stats aren't everything. However where you loss me is the list of QB having the same success as Manning Brady, Rivers, Brees in their early seasons. Brees was a late bloomer so i won't count him, however none of those guys you listed had the success of Flacco in their early years, let alone the like of the elite QBs you named.

All of those above average QBs you named, had flash in the pan seasons, but none of them were even close to being as consistently and progressed as steadily as Flacco has.

With the exception of McNabb, none of those guys even played as much as Flacco in their first 3 seasons. So that comparison just doesn't work.

To be honest it sounds like you have Joe Flacco stuck in a box, and pegged as a QB that is as good as he'll ever get right now. All the things you named in your previous post as dislikes about Flacco are things that every QB gets better at as they develop more.

The fact of the matter is, while stats aren't everything. You don't produce at a high level in the NFL at the QB position if you aren't good. More then any other position, your numbers define you as a QB. You'll never see a QB post the type of numbers the elite QBs post on a consistent bases and people label him as a bust, or just an average player. Brett Favre wasn't the prettiest QB to play the game, numbers wise you probably wouldn't even call him one of the best, but the fact of the matter was the guy just got it done.

We've both agreed that Flacco doesn't have to be elite to win a super bowl. However, If Joe continues to progress at the rate he's going. And his numbers continue to rival those of the other Elite QBs in the NFL, like they do now, and Flacco does get a Super Bowl win under his belt, there is no way he won't be considered elite.
[/quote]

That's an interesting point you bring up, about the correlation between of greatness and Rings. Following Eli Mannings Superbowl victory many people said he was an elite QB; now several years removed I don't think anyone would really consider him Elite. But it does change peoples perceptions if a QB wins the Superbowl. The only answer to this question is going to be time.

[PWNEDbyDEANO]

[quote name='Bmoresun' timestamp='1308591648' post='698786']
I listed my reasons, many of you think he will overcome these faults, I think he will never be elite, this is the last I'm saying about this issue until the regular season is underway. Time will give us answers.
[/quote]

That's fair enough. I think this is the season where Joe proves one of our opinions wrong. I hope that he continues to grow as a player and a leader. Like you say though, only time will tell and the stage is set nicely.

Thanks for reasoning your opinion, against the grain though it may be.

[1/28/01]

I dont see why Flacco would regress at all and sway from his upward movement. Makes little sense to assume that he would, but to each their own, I guess.

[flynismo]

,[quote name='1/28/01' timestamp='1308601400' post='698863']<br />I dont see why Flacco would regress at all and sway from his upward movement.  Makes little sense to assume that he would, but to each their own, I guess.<br />[/quote]


to some people, being 'realistic' is to expect things to go wrong, or to assume that others will fail just like you have.
To them, people who expect good things are dreamers...or in this instance, blind homers.

Pretty sad when you think about it.,,,,

[gabefergy]

[quote name='Dlandry26isBeast' timestamp='1308636057' post='699110']
Comparing Flacco to Rivers in anyway, at this point, would be like comparing Oher to Joe Thomas. There is just no real backing for it; just because a player puts up decent stats early doesn't put them in an elite category. And jsut because a player excels at one part of the the game (the deep ball) doesn't warrant such comparisons, this article is trash.
[/quote]

I disagree. The article simply pointed out how Flacco is a strong vertical passer, comparable to Rivers in that metric. No where in the article did it say Flacco is better than Rivers, and Joe certainly has a lot more growth at QB. Joyner makes a good point about Flacco making the most our of what was available. Boldin, Mason, and Housh are far from down-field threats, but we still managed to convert a high percentage of downfield throws. Now that we may have a legitimate vertical threat in Torrey Smith the offense will hopefully click much better and those numbers will look even better. And besides, Flacco has been in the league for 3 years and Rivers for 7 but they both have the same number of playoff wins.

[Bmoresun]

[quote name='gabefergy' timestamp='1308636754' post='699113']
I disagree. The article simply pointed out how Flacco is a strong vertical passer, comparable to Rivers in that metric. No where in the article did it say Flacco is better than Rivers, and Joe certainly has a lot more growth at QB. Joyner makes a good point about Flacco making the most our of what was available. Boldin, Mason, and Housh are far from down-field threats, but we still managed to convert a high percentage of downfield throws. Now that we may have a legitimate vertical threat in Torrey Smith the offense will hopefully click much better and those numbers will look even better. And besides, Flacco has been in the league for 3 years and Rivers for 7 but they both have the same number of playoff wins.
[/quote]

And what happens if the offense doesn't click in 2011 with Torrey Smith? Who you gonna put the blame on in 2011 if Flacco doesn't preform like Rivers? Is it going to be the offensive line, or perhaps Cam? And Remind me who Rivers down field threats were when Vincent Jackson missed the entire season, when Flyod missed 5 games, or when Antonio Gates missed 6 games? Or, name me Brady's down field aces during his first 6 years. And don't even try to say that Joe has been the reason for our postseason success, if anything his postseason play is the reason we didn't go to the Superbowl last season. How many points did our offense muster in the second half against Pittsburgh? Or better yet yards? NO elite QB ever had such a dismal half in a playoff game. And your right Rivers has played in four more seasons than Joe which makes this comparison even more stupid.

[flynismo]

[quote name='Bmoresun' timestamp='1308640576' post='699120']<br />And what happens if the offense doesn't click in 2011 with Torrey Smith? Who you gonna put the blame on in 2011 if Flacco doesn't preform like Rivers? Is it going to be the offensive line, or perhaps Cam? And Remind me who Rivers down field threats were when Vincent Jackson missed the entire season, when Flyod missed 5 games, or when Antonio Gates missed 6 games? Or, name me Brady's down field aces during his first 6 years. And don't even try to say that Joe has been the reason for our postseason success, if anything his postseason play is the reason we didn't go to the Superbowl last season. How many points did our offense muster in the second half against Pittsburgh? Or better yet yards? NO elite QB ever had such a dismal half in a playoff game. And your right Rivers has played in four more seasons than Joe which makes this comparison even more stupid.<br />[/quote]

so you're going to pin that second half all on Flacco? not very smart to do.

I wonder, in contrast to your scenario, if/when Flacco puts up a big season, what new excuses will his detractors come up with to not give him his due?

[reediddy]

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1308643065' post='699131']
so you're going to pin that second half all on Flacco? not very smart to do.

I wonder, in contrast to your scenario, if/when Flacco puts up a big season, what new excuses will his detractors come up with to not give him his due?
[/quote]

You can't pin the second half on him, it was a complete team meltdown. Defense couldn't get crucial stops, and Ray Rice actually fumbled.

Flacco has had his moments. People are quick to forget how well he plays when he's on his game. Don't expect too much, just steady development every year. Joyner is not doing a service to Ravens fans by writing this article, as it may drive some of us to be expecting Rivers-like performances by him next year.

[Ravensfan23]

[quote name='Bmoresun' timestamp='1308640576' post='699120']
NO elite QB ever had such a dismal half in a playoff game.
[/quote]

Divisional Playoff vs Steelers- Jan. 15, 2011
Joe Flacco: 2nd half 3-11 38yds 1Int 1 lost fumble. 2 curial dropped passes.

Wildcard week vs the Baltimore Ravens- Jan. 10, 2010
Tom Brady 1st Half 7/15 38yds 1TD 2INTs 1lost fumble.

AFCCG vs NE Patriots- Jan. 18, 2004
Peyton Manning 1st Half 9-12 91yds 2INTs

Brady was in his 10th season when he had that bad performance. Manning was in his 6 season when he had his poor performance. Flacco was in his 3rd season.

Both Peyton Manning and Tom Brady were viewed as Elite QBs when they produced those performances. Nobody here is even calling Flacco elite right now, just pointing out his potential.