ESPN's KC Joyner: Why Flacco Is As Good As Rivers

[izvoodoo]

[quote name='Bmoresun' timestamp='1308327193' post='698025']
Ridiculous? None of what I have said is Ridiculous, albeit negative, it is certainly not ridiculous. Ridiculous is the article that compares Flacco to a QB that has thrown over 4000 yards and had above a 100.00 passer rating the last three seasons, and oh yeah made three Pro Bowls, that is Ridiculous. Maybe I do see the glass half empty and don't think that Joe Flacco is ever going to be as good as Rivers, but what i say is defiantly not Ridiculous.

And why do you care so much anyway? You act personally insulted that another Ravens fan (me) may be critical of the Ravens. To answer your question I'm a huge Ravens fan, but that doesn't mean I cant be critical of Ravens players or coaches. Not every Ravens fan has to agree with one another, just because my opinion is different than yours doesn't mean I'm not a bigger fan than you.
[/quote]


He can be as good as rivers if he played in the AFC west with a great Oline and some of the best deep threats on the planet. He can throw the deep ball as well as rivers, and that's mainly phil's thing. And with those deep threats you know what opens? The middle of the field. Not to mention the red zone. which is one of our biggest problems.

That being said, he's not going to be as good as rivers.

Neither is Big Ben. I mean... phil rivers is REALLY good.

[Ravensfan23]

[quote name='Bmoresun' timestamp='1308318545' post='697968']
They are not basically the same, Rivers had 347 more passing yards, a higher completion percentage, 9 more TDs, and a 105.5 passer rating compared to Joe's 93.6.
And like you said Rivers made the Pro Bowl. Not the same at all, but why do we even need these types of comparisons? The only thing it does is give people a false hope, we read these garbage articles, and expect Joe to come out and be Rivers, and Manning, and when he doesn't we make up excuses; its the receivers, the Oline, the coordinator, but never Flacco himself. Soon people are going to have to wake up and realize we have a good player not a great one.
[/quote]

in 2006 Philips Rivers 3rd NFL season.

61.7 completion percentage. 3,338 yards, 22TDs 9INTs 7.4 yards per attempt. 92.0 passer rating

In 2010 Joe Flacco 3rd NFL season.

62.6 completion percentage. 3,622 yards, 25TDs 10INTs 7.4 yards per attempt. 93.6 passer rating.

Since you want to get so technical, Flacco actually had a better season in his 3rd season then Philip Rivers had. Even though Philip made the Pro Bowl that year. Also Rivers had one of the best performances from a RB in that year. LT ran for 1800 yards and 28 TDs. But i'm sure that didn't help Philip out any right.

I'm not talking about Rivers 3rd year as a starter, I'm talking his 3rd season period, which was 2006.

I can't speak for other people, but I've never personally said Flacco was great. What I have said and will continue to say is that his potential to be great is huge.

I give Flacco just as much blame as anyone else on this team and some article has nothing to do with it. What's his fault is his fault, when he's WRs or oline is at fault then they should be blamed.

Oh and the reason why most Ravens fans enjoy these type articles are because the vast majority of the national media continue to bash this guy as if he's the sole reason the Ravens haven't won the Super Bowl.

So when you hear people question Flacco, in only his 3rd season, and then you go back and look at Peyton Mannings playoff numbers over his first 6 NFL season, you see that Manning struggled just as much as Flacco has, and Joe is only in his 3rd season.

When you look at the fact that it took Drew Brees 4-5 years before he started coming into his own, you start to understand Joe's potential a little more.

When you have a young promising player, you compare them to the best at their respective position. Once that player separates himself from the current players at his position, he starts to be compared with the better players at his position in history.

The best guys at the QB position right now are, Manning, Brady, Brees, and probably Rodgers. There is no way that Flacco compares to those guys right now, as all of those guys have atleast 6 NFL seasons under their belt. However when you go back and look at all 4 of those QB's first 3 seasons in the NFL, Flacco's production either compares or exceeds them.

So does Flacco in his 3rd year compare to the 2010 version of Peyton Manning, Philips Rivers, Aaron Rodgers, Tom Brady, Drew Brees? No. But the 3rd year Flacco compares favorably with the 3rd year Peyton, Philip, Aaron, Tom, and Drew.

[Ravensfan23]

[quote name='BmoreRaised' timestamp='1308323584' post='697988']
I don't click on links.He is saying Flacco is better than Rivers as of right now?Well,we already know that answer,could Flacco be better someday?I think so.I know some people like to call Rivers a "crybaby" but the guy is a great QB.
[/quote]

Well if you actually took time to click on the link, instead of jumping out of a window to tell people not to get their hopes up about Flacco, you would see that the article is forced on the deep passing potential of both QBs, more then the over all talent of each.

"After doing some serious number crunching, ESPN’s KC Joyner argues that Flacco is in San Diego Chargers quarterback Philip Rivers’ [b]elite league as a deep passer[/b]. Many consider Rivers to have one of the best deep balls in the league.

“It is thought by many that [Flacco] is a superb game manager who has yet to make the jump to being an elite passer,” wrote Joyner. “However, a closer look at the metrics shows that Flacco has already made that jump.

[b]“In fact, they show that Flacco displayed a Philip Rivers-type ability to get his team’s vertical passing game in gear regardless of the talent level of his receivers.”[/b]

Nowhere in that article did it say Flacco is better, greater, or even on par with Rivers as an overall QB. It's simply a article that shows, why Flacco should be given credit for being much more then the game manager so many people try to paint him out to be.

To my knowledge nobody is saying Flacco is better then Rivers. However looking at the article, and just watching Flacco over the past 3 years, It's clear that he excels in the "vertical pass game". So get him weapons that can actually attack defenses vertically, and maybe in the next couple years, we as Ravens fans will be able to say we have a top 5 QB in the NFL.

All this article was doing was comparing Flacco to one of the better deep ball throwers in the NFL. In that area of his game, Flacco compares favorable. From a overall stand point, Flacco has a lot of work to do to compare to Rivers.

It's no different then people falling all over Matt Ryan for his anticipation, timing, or mental sharpness, that people compare him with the Elite QBs in the NFL.

This is just someone who giving Flacco praise for being really good in that "vertical pass game" facet of his game. But of course, giving Flacco any credit that would suggest he's more then just an average QB, means that your a homer, or a Flacco worshiper.

[Ravensfan23]

[quote name='Alexir' timestamp='1308325450' post='698009']
I think Flacco can become a Phillip Rivers. I have seen nothing to think Joe is Elite. He is pretty much above average but thats not his fault, its Cams fault. We rarely get to see him take a lot of shots down field on a "Rivers basis". Joe needs to work on getting the ball out faster and Cam needs to work on giving Joe options. I think Joe will struggle to make a pro bowl in the next couple of years because Tom and Peyton automatically occupy 2 spots lol.

[b]Also, Can we trade McGahee to Chargers for Gates[/b]? lol, I wish they would bite on that....
[/quote]

Ed Dickson might very well give the Ravens a Gates like presence at the TE position.

Now let me clarify this, because people tend to take words and flip them to make their own points. I'm not saying Ed Dickson is as good right now, or will he ever be as good as Antonio Gates.

But from that big physical mismatch at the TE position, Dickson could be used in much of the same fashions as Gates is used for SD. But I don't every see Dickson having 80-90 catch seasons for 1,000 yards. Mainly because the Ravens won't need him to.

[Terrellb2007]

There we go D Mase sticking up for the teammate. laying your hate down is bad for business especially when that man is in perfect position to make your comments look prehistoric (neanderthals I tell ya)I say Flacoo has a good season, go to the playoffs I will go above that and say we go to the bowl not just because he's CAPABLE in this lifetime but because he's attracting a lot of attention so he must be a posed threat in my book....and Ima leave it at that

[flynismo]

,[quote name='Ravensfan23' timestamp='1308331078' post='698042']<br />Well if you actually took time to click on the link, instead of jumping out of a window to tell people not to get their hopes up about Flacco, you would see that the article is forced on the deep passing potential of both QBs, more then the over all talent of each. <br /><br />&quot;After doing some serious number crunching, ESPN’s KC Joyner argues that Flacco is in San Diego Chargers quarterback Philip Rivers’ <b>elite league as a deep passer</b>. Many consider Rivers to have one of the best deep balls in the league.<br /><br />“It is thought by many that [Flacco] is a superb game manager who has yet to make the jump to being an elite passer,” wrote Joyner. “However, a closer look at the metrics shows that Flacco has already made that jump.<br /><br /><b>“In fact, they show that Flacco displayed a Philip Rivers-type ability to get his team’s vertical passing game in gear regardless of the talent level of his receivers.”</b><br /><br />Nowhere in that article did it say Flacco is better, greater, or even on par with Rivers as an overall QB. It's simply a article that shows, why Flacco should be given credit for being much more then the game manager so many people try to paint him out to be. <br /><br />To my knowledge nobody is saying Flacco is better then Rivers. However looking at the article, and just watching Flacco over the past 3 years, It's clear that he excels in the &quot;vertical pass game&quot;. So get him weapons that can actually attack defenses vertically, and maybe in the next couple years, we as Ravens fans will be able to say we have a top 5 QB in the NFL.<br /><br />All this article was doing was comparing Flacco to one of the better deep ball throwers in the NFL. In that area of his game, Flacco compares favorable. From a overall stand point, Flacco has a lot of work to do to compare to Rivers. <br /><br />It's no different then people falling all over Matt Ryan for his anticipation, timing, or mental sharpness, that people compare him with the Elite QBs in the NFL. <br /><br />This is just someone who giving Flacco praise for being really good in that &quot;vertical pass game&quot; facet of his game. But of course, giving Flacco any credit that would suggest he's more then just an average QB, means that your a homer, or a Flacco worshiper.<br />[/quote]

right on..

Btw, I'll be the first to admit that I am a Flacco worshipper. Being as such, it sickens me that so many Ravens fans can't appreciate how Flacco has impacted this offense. I have never seen someone accomplish so much, and recieve so little credit for it.
Neg me all you want, but if you're anti-Flacco, you're anti-Ravens.,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

[1/28/01]

[quote name='Bmoresun' timestamp='1308327193' post='698025']
Ridiculous? None of what I have said is Ridiculous, albeit negative, it is certainly not ridiculous. Ridiculous is the article that compares Flacco to a QB that has thrown over 4000 yards and had above a 100.00 passer rating the last three seasons, and oh yeah made three Pro Bowls, that is Ridiculous. Maybe I do see the glass half empty and don't think that Joe Flacco is ever going to be as good as Rivers, but what i say is defiantly not Ridiculous.

And why do you care so much anyway? You act personally insulted that another Ravens fan (me) may be critical of the Ravens. To answer your question I'm a huge Ravens fan, but that doesn't mean I cant be critical of Ravens players or coaches. Not every Ravens fan has to agree with one another, just because my opinion is different than yours doesn't mean I'm not a bigger fan than you.
[/quote]
No, its not "defiantly" ridiculous, but it is definitely!

Its just your constant negative posting that has gotten old. We get it already, you're a "glass has been tipped over" kind of guy.

And again, this is not personal. Stop making it seem that way. I could care less who you are, what you do or what team you root for. I am just sick of reading your same dribble about "this guy is overrated", "this guy is old", "this guy is a top 10, not top 3".....blah blah blah!

You are either Preston, Woodley or Dukes!

[PWNEDbyDEANO]

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1308334334' post='698069']
,

right on..

Btw, I'll be the first to admit that I am a Flacco worshipper. Being as such, it sickens me that so many Ravens fans can't appreciate how Flacco has impacted this offense. I have never seen someone accomplish so much, and recieve so little credit for it.
Neg me all you want, but if you're anti-Flacco, you're anti-Ravens.,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
[/quote]

Them haters gonna eat a lot of crow sometime soon man. Flacco will prove all of his doubters wrong. Wrong about not being a franchise QB, wrong about not being capable of leading us to a Superbowl, wrong about not being a leader at all.

[flynismo]

,[quote name='1/28/01' timestamp='1308336626' post='698089']<br />Well I'll be......Bmoresun was wrong about something?  Wow<br />[/quote]


haha, looks like someone may be taking Ravenmore74's place for you...at least this one will make it fun and respond,,,,

[Jamal]

I didn't read the article, but maybe Flacco could be as good as Rivers a year or 2 from now.

But as of right now you'd have to be naive to think Flacco is anywhere near Rivers. Don't get me wrong, I like Flacco and all, but Rivers is an absolute monster. Don't give me the WR excuse either. Rivers WR corp was decimated for most of the year. He almost had a record breaking year with guys picked off from the street.

You could hate the guy as much as you want, but after the SB winning group of QB's, Rivers is on top of the list imo.

[H8R]

Rivers is a PUNK and a loser in the playoffs. Flacco is a good guy and isnt a crybaby and WINS.
I'm not, or will ever be a Rivers fan.

[flynismo]

[quote name='Jamal' timestamp='1308337432' post='698097']<br />I didn't read the article, but maybe Flacco could be as good as Rivers a year or 2 from now.<br /><br />But as of right now you'd have to be naive to think Flacco is anywhere near Rivers. Don't get me wrong, I like Flacco and all, but Rivers is an absolute monster. Don't give me the WR excuse either. Rivers WR corp was decimated for most of the year. He almost had a record breaking year with guys picked off from the street.<br /><br />You could hate the guy as much as you want, but after the SB winning group of QB's, Rivers is on top of the list imo.<br />[/quote]

yup.

I mean, if I wanted to hate on Rivers, I could point out the fact that he spends most of his year playing against college level defenses, but I don't want to take anything away from him, because he IS very good.

Flacco is not there yet...he's well on his way though, and as the article expressed, in some asppects he has already arrived.

[Romo Ravens]

[quote name='H8R' timestamp='1308337694' post='698098']
Rivers is a PUNK and a loser in the playoffs. Flacco is a good guy and isnt a crybaby and WINS.
I'm not, or will ever be a Rivers fan.
[/quote]

He's been to the playoffs three times lol, same as Flacco, and played one of those playoff games with a torn ACL. He's competitive and vociferous, what's wrong with that? You may not like him, but he's a beast of a QB, and at this moment, is better than Flacco.

[Ravensfan23]

[quote name='Jamal' timestamp='1308337432' post='698097']
[b]I didn't read the article, but maybe Flacco could be as good as Rivers a year or 2 from now.[/b]

But as of right now you'd have to be naive to think Flacco is anywhere near Rivers. Don't get me wrong, I like Flacco and all, but Rivers is an absolute monster. Don't give me the WR excuse either. Rivers WR corp was decimated for most of the year. He almost had a record breaking year with guys picked off from the street.

You could hate the guy as much as you want, but after the SB winning group of QB's, Rivers is on top of the list imo.
[/quote]

Maybe you should take the time to actually read the article. Nobody is saying Flacco is as good or better then Rivers right now.

The article is just praising Flacco for being able to be among the elite QBs in term on creating a top notch vertical passing game, despite the fact that he's surrounded by nothing but possession WRs.

Nobody is taking away from Rivers, and his great play, especially from last season. The only thing that stopping Rivers from being mentioned with the Elite QBs is his lack of a Super Bowl.

However the fact that Flacco in his first 3 seasons, is on par with a guy like Rivers statistically, really shows how much people overreact to Flacco's failures. I don't think anyone is willing to put Flacco in the top 5 in QBs right now. But like you said, Flacco could very well be a good as Rivers, and the other Elite passers in a year or 2. If that doesn't get you excited as a Ravens fan, then I'm not sure what will.

[Ravensfan23]

[quote name='Romo Ravens' timestamp='1308341284' post='698118']
He's been to the playoffs three times lol, same as Flacco, and played one of those playoff games with a torn ACL. He's competitive and vociferous, what's wrong with that? You may not like him, but he's a beast of a QB, and at this moment, is better than Flacco.
[/quote]

Yea guys like Rivers will always get a bad rep. He's everything you mentioned, but a lot of people won't be able to get over the antics, and gestures to the crowd.

It's one of those things where he's made his bed, and unless he wins a few Super Bowls, he'll have a lay in it.

[izvoodoo]

[i]*removed quote of inappropriate post
[/i]
Having lived in southern california during much of rivers carear, Rivers in his seconds year as a starter (third year in the league) wasn't noticeably better than Flacco in his third year (third as a starter). In his rookie year he was barely asked to really through. And yes the personnel comes into it as well.

That being said I don't think flacco will ever be as good as rivers.

I don't think Big Ben is our will ever be either.

Rivers is amazing.

I will say flacco and rivers have similar ceilings in their abilities physically. Which is saying a lot for joe.

[Guest ArmyRaven52]

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1308338437' post='698105']
Say it aint so! I have a theory on this, but my warn level is already at 80% lmao...
[/quote]
Haha, yeah those damn cam cameron posts keep getting me. The question is though when your level gets to a 100 percent what happens.

[flynismo]

,[quote name='ArmyRaven52' timestamp='1308344949' post='698144']<br /> Haha, yeah those damn cam cameron posts keep getting me.  The question is though when your level gets to a 100 percent what happens.<br />[/quote]

i think you win a one week vacation...from the forum,,,,

[Guest ArmyRaven52]

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1308345043' post='698145']
,

i think you win a one week vacation...from the forum,,,,
[/quote]
thanks, I hope those cam and foxworth boards go away.

[GTRavens]

[quote name='1/28/01' timestamp='1308281791' post='697901']
Stallworth was "useless" due to Cam....he is certainly serviceable.
[/quote]

What makes him serviceable? He has done absolutely nothing in the last three years. He couldn't even shine in the 2007 Patriots offense. He's done. We shouldn't play him just because he's fast.

[1/28/01]

[quote name='GTRavens' timestamp='1308349563' post='698179']
What makes him serviceable? He has done absolutely nothing in the last three years. He couldn't even shine in the 2007 Patriots offense. He's done. We shouldn't play him just because he's fast.
[/quote]
Okay, "serviceable" may not have been the best choice of word. And I am not even saying we should retain him, but he was really never given a true shot with the Ravens. Of course that's partly due to his injury, but we all know what ensued when he did finally hit the field.

[Mick0311]

[quote name='Free Agent' timestamp='1308274446' post='697850']
Torrey Smith will really be that deep threat that Flacco has needed. If Cam uses Torrey Smith, Torrey and Joe will produce.
[/quote]


Yeah, he will be the new end-around guy. That will be awesome

[hawkprey]

[quote name='H8R' timestamp='1308337694' post='698098']
Rivers is a PUNK and a loser in the playoffs. Flacco is a good guy and isnt a crybaby and WINS.
I'm not, or will ever be a Rivers fan.
[/quote]

Damn that's hateful! Hate hate hate, hate hate hate hate...

I don't like Rivers either. He's very good, but he's had a pretty gratuitous schedule in that AFC West for a few years and this last year for them was cake.

[Ravensfan23]

[quote name='GTRavens' timestamp='1308349563' post='698179']
What makes him serviceable? He has done absolutely nothing in the last three years. He couldn't even shine in the 2007 Patriots offense. He's done. We shouldn't play him just because he's fast.
[/quote]

At the risk of turning this thread into another Cam is terrible or Cam isn't as bad as people think thread..........

I think it had more to do then just Cam not knowing how to use Stallworth. People say Torrey Smith was a wasted pick because Cam won't know how to use him. I just don't think that's true.

I look back at how Ted Ginn was used in his rookie season under Cam. That guy had receptions in 13 of the 16 games he played in and only had 4 rush attempts and he was one of the fastest guys that came out of the draft that year. Ginn had 34 catches and 400+ yards under Cam that year and they didn't even have a QB. So I can definitely see Smith being used to his potential.

I think the whole Stallworth thing had something to do with practice or how we adapted to the playbook. I don't know for sure, but Stallworth being inactive for the Saints game looked like more of a statement to me, then just needing a extra player. But that was last season, I'm more interested in how 2011 will play out.

[flynismo]

That has to be the first time anyone has ever tried to use Ted Ginn as an example of a player being used to his full potential....for a top 10 pick, well....nevermind

[SpeedKills]

Look, it's great that Flacco has been compared to a QB of Rivers' caliber. But Joe is not as good as Rivers, at least not at the moment.

I'm certainly not saying that Joe can't elevate himself to that level, just that Rivers is on a level that is only occupied by four other QBs.

[Ravensfan23]

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1308360193' post='698228']
That has to be the first time anyone has ever tried to use Ted Ginn as an example of a player being used to his full potential....for a top 10 pick, well....nevermind
[/quote]

Yea I had to work hard for that one. But in all seriousness, I never said Ginn was used to his fullest potential under Cam. I just made reference to how Ginn was used in that Miami offense his rookie year.

The favorite line or saying this offseason is that Torrey Smith will be our end round guy, or he'll have more carries then catches because Cam doesn't know how to use speed, and then people point to Stallworth.

Well as a rookie in a offense that had pretty much no talent once Ronnie Brown and Trent Green went down, Gin produced 34 rec 420yds 12.4ypc and 2 TDs.

As much as you wanted someone else selected in the 2nd round other then Torrey Smith, can you honestly tell me that you wouldn't be happy with that time of production from Smith this season?

It's not about Ted Ginn being used the right or wrong way, it was just a reference to discredit the idea of

1) Cam refuses to use young 1st or 2nd year WRs

2) Cam doesn't know how to use speed other then for end arounds.

Does that mean we shouldn't have concerns as to Torrey Smith or any other young players being used properly? NO. Because what happened in the past with other players doesn't matter in 2011. However there may be more to Stallworth not being used then just Cam not knowing how to use him correctly. That's all.

[Free Agent]

[quote name='Mick0311' timestamp='1308351324' post='698189']
Yeah, he will be the new end-around guy. That will be awesome
[/quote]

Yeah, I have a strong fear that you are right.

[Ravensfan23]

[quote]Yeah, he will be the new end-around guy. That will be awesome[/quote]

[quote name='Free Agent' timestamp='1308443465' post='698418']
Yeah, I have a strong fear that you are right.
[/quote]

If that's how you guys really feel and it's not just a cheap shot at Cam, then I feel you guys will be pleasantly surprised and happy with Torrey Smith this season.

Somebody has to take those 30+ receptions that Housh is leaving behind.

I've been saying all offseason how I think Flacco will have a huge season, and I feel Cam will have a big part in that.

With the numbers I've predicted for Flacco, I think he'll definitely go over 500 pass attempts and get into that 540 range. 540 pass attempts would put Flacco at the 33 attempts per game area. I've said that I believe Flacco will be in the 65-66% completion range. So that means Flacco will have to complete 350+ of his 540 pass attempt.

Here's a breakdown of how I see those completions being distributed.

Boldin 85 catches
Mason 64 catches
Rice 46 catches
Heap 47 catches
Smith 33 catches
Dickson 28 catches
Hardy 20 catches
Pitta 11 catches
Reed 10 catches
Doss 4 catches
McClain 4 catches
Allen/Steele 3 catches

That would put Flacco at the 355 complete passes on 540 attempts for 65.7%.

As for Smith and his 33 catches, I can see him averaging about 14.3 yards per catch. That would put Torrey Smith production at 33 catches for 471 yards and probably 2-3 TDs.

Regardless of your overall expectations of Torrey Smith and his potential. I think we all would be happy with this type of production from him in his rookie season.

[Bmoresun]

[quote name='PWNEDbyDEANO' timestamp='1308336753' post='698091']
Them haters gonna eat a lot of crow sometime soon man. Flacco will prove all of his doubters wrong. Wrong about not being a franchise QB, wrong about not being capable of leading us to a Superbowl, wrong about not being a leader at all.
[/quote]


I must have said like ten times I still think Flacco can win us a Superbowl. A team doesn't need Manning, Rivers, or Brady to win the Superbowl; sure it helps but its not necessary, and I have never said he can't be a leader.

All I'm saying is that Flacco, is not and never will be on the same level as Brady, Manning, Rivers, or Brees. AND that is ok, because teams still win without elite QBs.

You people act like that is the worst accusation ever, as if I'm comparing Flacco to Boller or something. Hasselbeck and Delhomme both had great careers in the league and both got there shot at the Superbowl, but they are not on the same level as Brady or Manning. Joe can get us there and he can help win it for us. But, soon all of you will have to realize that our QB is not Rivers, its Flacco, stop trying to make the man someone he is not.