Q In The Slot

[Ed_Reed20]

Earlier today, I stumbled upon an article PFF did on slot WRs and I was pleasantly surprised to see how often Boldin was in that role last season. What he did there confirmed some of my views on how Cam utilized him last season though.

Here's a link to the article: [url="http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2011/06/02/slot-receivers/"][size="2"][b][u]Slot Receivers[/u][/b][/size][/url]

According to PFF's analysis, Q tied for 3rd in the league with Jordan Shipley for snaps in the slot with 566. He didn't crack their top 15 in terms of highest-percentage of snaps in the slot, which is understandable as he's a starter.

From the slot, he amassed 65 targets, 39 catches for 561 yards(good for 8th[tied], 11th and 6th respectively). He finished the season with 64 catches for 837 yards(70 for 899 if you count post-season yards), so 39 catches and 561 yards coming from the slot is pretty significant.

Now, one of the most glaring stats comes in the "slot target depth" table. Q's targets in the slot averaged 11.63 yard and only Marques Colston and Hines Ward were targeted further down-field. To me, this illustrates a problem with how Cam utilized Q. He used him to attack the seams, most notably on his 38-yarder in the opener, third TD against Cleveland in Week 3 and his 61-yarder against Pittsburgh in Week 13. That's cool. But Q wasn't given [i]nearly[/i] enough opportunities to catch and run from the slot.

Further proving this was Boldin's yards per catch from the slot being 3rd among listed WRs with 14.38.

But maybe the most damning stat is the last table which breaks down YAC. Q tied with Jordy Nelson for last among the 15 WRs listed for last with 182 yards after the catch. Even Colston, a WR not really known for his YAC abilities, had more than him.

I've maintained that Boldin looked less explosive last season than he did as a Cardinal. However, he's still strong and physical enough to generate yards after contact. I really hope Cam utilizes him better next season.

[FerrariFan87]

I agree... Q needs a lot more opportunities for YAC next season if we really want to go places and contend.

[Jamal]

I think Boldin was given more than enough opportunities for YAC, but defenses had a easy time containing it with no one stretching the field.

[Bltravens]

[quote name='Jamal' timestamp='1307626269' post='694735']
I think Boldin was given more than enough opportunities for YAC, but defenses had a easy time containing it with no one stretching the field.
[/quote]
This. When safeties can sit on routes because they know they can make up if they do lose a step the whole field becomes compressed. Boldin didnt get the ball enough early in his hands for a chance to run, but it wasn't very often when I remember him having a good chance to break a tackle and run.

Torrey is a rookie but our offense breaking out rides solely on him. Otherwise its going to be the exact same thing as last year.

[Ed_Reed20]

Not that the slot WR article wasn't good but I just saw this article PFF published a while ago.

[url="http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2011/04/05/anquan-boldin-slot-receiver/"][size="2"][u][b]Anquan Boldin: Slot Receiver[/b][/u][/size][/url]

[Ravensfan23]

Q was used the way he needed to be used last season. Would we have liked to seem him used in a fashion that would have resulted in a lot more production? Of course, but we have to take into account the offense last season. It's not as easy as saying, use Q on shorter routes, because a lot of those deep routes set up those underneath routes.

I won't make this about Cam, because we all know that name can take over any Thread, but from a offense stand point, Q was used pretty well last season. For the hand we were dealt, Boldin and the passing game played well last season. However things need to be and should be much better this year.

Last season the Ravens had pretty much the same WRs, Reed as a rookie struggled to catch on early and Stallworth was injured early, so those guys weren't used nearly as much as they should have been imo. However this year, Dickson and Pitta should be much more involved from a TE standpoint. Reed should be better prepared after a full season in the offense, and Smith, Doss, and Hardy could all see major roles depending on who adapts to the offense the quickest.

With the talent and potential of these young guys, the Ravens should be much more diverse this season. I look for Q to continue to be moved around to create mismatches and take advantage of man coverage.

I can see Q having number that look like this in 2011: 85rec 1200yds 11TDs.

If that seems like huge numbers think about this. Through the first 7 games last season, Q was on pace to finish the season with 84 catches, 1184 yards 11TDs. After defenses got a handle on the Ravens offense, Q's numbers started declined rapidly. So as I said before, with the new weapons added over the past 2 season, Q should be given plenty of room to make plays and have a huge season.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='Ravensfan23' timestamp='1307652974' post='694929']
Q was used the way he needed to be used last season. Would we have liked to seem him used in a fashion that would have resulted in a lot more production? [b]Of course, but we have to take into account the offense last season. It's not as easy as saying, use Q on shorter routes, because a lot of those deep routes set up those underneath routes. [/b]

...
[/quote]

I really don't see what needed to be taken into account, especially when the team got into the red zone and had their struggles.

You say the deep routes set up underneath routes. For who? Rice? Because he's the only player I can think of that benefited from the space created.

[Ravensfan23]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' timestamp='1307655616' post='694951']
I really don't see what needed to be taken into account, especially when the team got into the red zone and had their struggles.

You say the deep routes set up underneath routes. For who? Rice? Because he's the only player I can think of that benefited from the space created.
[/quote]

you don't think that player's yac benefit from space created? When you have a defense packed in that LOS to 15 yard range, it's difficult for underneath routes to be successful.

When you have other WRs that can create space in a defense it allow a underneath WR to catch a pass, break one tackle and gain major yards. However, if the entire defense is sitting on shorter routes, even when a player breaks a tackle, they have 3 or 4 more players rallying to the ball and it makes it tougher to get yac.

The Ravens top 3 WR options made a living dominating the middle of the field and underneath coverage in their respective careers. So what you have to take into account is the lack of downfield/big play potential of our WRs. Having Q, Mason, and Housh at WR sounds great, but they are all pretty much the same WR. They all need the defense spread out so they can take advantage of what they do best. Q having Fitz and that open passing attack the Cards had helped him tremendously. Housh having Chad commanding most of the attention from defenses, and Henry's deep threat potential allowed T.J to dominate underneath in that possession WR type role. Mason never really had that with the Ravens, so while he caught a lot of passes, and put up decent yards, when we got to the tougher defenses they shut down the Ravens offense because all they had to do was sit on shorter routes to eliminate Mason and force everyone else beat them one on one.

Well add Q and Housh to an offense with Mason, and the Ravens faced the same issues against tougher defenses last season as we did over the past 2 years and beyond. Squad on shorter routes, with your LBs underneath. Play man coverage on the outside and have your Safeties play no more then 20-25 yards away. That's all most team had to do with the Ravens last year, at least the good defenses anyway.


The Ravens lack of team speed showed up big time last season, especially against the better defenses.

As for the Redzone, most times a team that can't run the ball with a lot of success will struggle in the redzone. The closer and closer you get to the endzone, the smaller the field becomes. So if underneath space was limited between the 20's it was even tighter once inside the red zone.

Often in the redzone, the success of the passing game, comes because of speed or movement at the LB position. Without much success in the running game and minimal speed at the WR position scoring in the redzone became even more difficult.

[RavenDude11]

Playing the slot, more often than not you're in a lot of traffic, especially across the middle. Boldin's strength is his strength. He uses that strength to beat his man, break the tackle, and eat up the open field. Isolate him on the outside 1-on-1 with a CB and he out bullies, racks up YAC, and scores TDs. Move him inside you make the field smaller with more defenders nearby. Without that quick acceleration/speed (not his area of strength) it's hard to get the separation needed to pick up YAC especially when now he has to beat the 1st, 2nd, 3rd man b4 he sees the open field. On another note...Boldin was in the slot 500+ times and was ONLY targeted 50 times?!?!?

Boldin's game is [i]physically[/i] out playing his defender. So if you're gonna play your best WR in the slot 500+ snaps, specifically to play the pass over the middle (and to help the run), you're telling me that you're only going to target him from this position 10% of the time?!? I understand his ability to make those catches and pick up the tough yards across the middle, but arent u under-utilizing his strength by shifting the burden of having to tackle him in the open field on the outside from the smaller 5'10'' CB to the bigger 6'4'' Lbs/Safeties across the middle? Why he wasn't targeted at least 10+ times a game baffles me. And why not have Stallworth in the slot instead, to if anything just run sprints up the middle on a consistent basis, forcing the extra safety out of the box while isolating Boldin and Mason on the outside? When a 6'2'' 220+ lbs WR who is infamous for physically abusing CBs, is matched up against a 5'9'' 180 lb CB, and the next nearest defender is 15-20 yards away, [size="4"]Why Would That Not Be A Major Part Of Your Game PLAN?!?[/size]

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='Ravensfan23' timestamp='1307659452' post='694987']
you don't think that player's yac benefit from space created? When you have a defense packed in that LOS to 15 yard range, it's difficult for underneath routes to be successful.

When you have other WRs that can create space in a defense it allow a underneath WR to catch a pass, break one tackle and gain major yards. However, if the entire defense is sitting on shorter routes, even when a player breaks a tackle, they have 3 or 4 more players rallying to the ball and it makes it tougher to get yac.

The Ravens top 3 WR options made a living dominating the middle of the field and underneath coverage in their respective careers. So what you have to take into account is the lack of downfield/big play potential of our WRs. Having Q, Mason, and Housh at WR sounds great, but they are all pretty much the same WR. They all need the defense spread out so they can take advantage of what they do best. Q having Fitz and that open passing attack the Cards had helped him tremendously. Housh having Chad commanding most of the attention from defenses, and Henry's deep threat potential allowed T.J to dominate underneath in that possession WR type role. Mason never really had that with the Ravens, so while he caught a lot of passes, and put up decent yards, when we got to the tougher defenses they shut down the Ravens offense because all they had to do was sit on shorter routes to eliminate Mason and force everyone else beat them one on one.

Well add Q and Housh to an offense with Mason, and the Ravens faced the same issues against tougher defenses last season as we did over the past 2 years and beyond. Squad on shorter routes, with your LBs underneath. Play man coverage on the outside and have your Safeties play no more then 20-25 yards away. That's all most team had to do with the Ravens last year, at least the good defenses anyway.

The Ravens lack of team speed showed up big time last season, especially against the better defenses.

As for the Redzone, most times a team that can't run the ball with a lot of success will struggle in the redzone. The closer and closer you get to the endzone, the smaller the field becomes. So if underneath space was limited between the 20's it was even tighter once inside the red zone.

Often in the redzone, the success of the passing game, comes because of speed or movement at the LB position. Without much success in the running game and minimal speed at the WR position scoring in the redzone became even more difficult.
[/quote]

I never said vacated space doesn't have a positive effect on YAC numbers. But as successful as Boldin was attacking the seams at times, his YAC numbers from the slot weren't what you would expect.

I can't deny the lack of speed congested the field for Flacco and company last season. However, that doesn't excuse the lack of bubble screens Q saw, especially in the red-zone.

Boldin wasn't a speed demon during his days in Arizona either but they still routinely put him in motion to give him some separation and momentum pre-snap, especially near the red-zone. Not once did I see that play last season.

[deathbird52]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' timestamp='1307662525' post='695011']
Boldin wasn't a speed demon during his days in Arizona either but they still routinely put him in motion to give him some separation and momentum pre-snap, especially near the red-zone. Not once did I see that play last season.
[/quote]

Cam really failed to utilize Q as they did in Arizona.

[izvoodoo]

Do they do analysis of underneath coverage and safety over the top... because I'm pretty sure that's what Boldin was seeing like 80% of snaps.

[RavenDude11]

I think the biggest problem with the Ravens passing game is the over complicating of the simple. I don't know how Cam designs his plays but I guarantee it takes a high level of execution to make them work and as we all know by now there's probably zero flexibility involved. I'll take a wild guess and bet most of the routes ran have multiple options for specific coverage (if he plays off go here instead, if the safety comes down cut this way, cover 2 - break off to that spot, if he does that, bob here, weave there, zag if he zigs, ect). Now add into the mix Joe's progressions (this WR, that WR, then this WR, but if this safety plays deep hit this guy, if this LB goes there throw here, if this WR does that you do this + account for the different route patterns, + having to know evry play of every formation inside and out) It's too much to analyze. IMO, Joe is the type of guy who performs best when he reacts, not thinks. It seems to me when he runs the hurry up offense he's decisive, he executes drives with higher consistency, and he's more focused. [i]"Look here, nope he's not open, look over here, nope he's not open either, let me look over here real quick, ahh he's open, ok, throw the ball, bingo, he caught it, he scored, that was easy, yay im good"[/i] He plays ball, reacts, and does what comes natural. But nothing about Cam Cameron's offense is natural. The system we have now I'm not sure if even Payton Manning could make it work. Cam is probably one of the most creative, smartest play designers in the league and I'm sure he has a play that can beat every coverage if this, this, and that happens...the problem is trying to do this, this and that when ur fatigued, tired, in pain, pressured, wr runs the wrong way, a linemen misses a block, RB forgets to chip...in other words there's not a lot of room for error. We have the players. In fact we probably have the best roster in the NFL, but the system, the system does not allow our players to reach their potential.

Prime example: ANQUAN BOLDIN

Pro Bowl WR in Arizona, Disappearing act in Baltimore. Unless he forgot how to play over night I would assume the system is at fault. Which leads me to this point. If Cam Cameron's system can cage a beast of a player like Anquan Boldin what is it doing to Joe Flacco, Ray Rice, LeRon McClain? What if they're potential is being held back and if that's the case how scary good could they be in the [i]right[/i] system?

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='izvoodoo' timestamp='1307664643' post='695029']
Do they do analysis of underneath coverage and safety over the top... because I'm pretty sure that's what Boldin was seeing like 80% of snaps.
[/quote]

I doubt opposing defenses paid [i]that[/i] much attention to him. But whenever they did,, it would be even more reason to create plays to free him but that didn't happen.

[Ravensfan23]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' timestamp='1307662525' post='695011']
I never said vacated space doesn't have a positive effect on YAC numbers. But as successful as Boldin was attacking the seams at times, his YAC numbers from the slot weren't what you would expect.

I can't deny the lack of speed congested the field for Flacco and company last season. However, that doesn't excuse the lack of bubble screens Q saw, especially in the red-zone.

Boldin wasn't a speed demon during his days in Arizona either but they still routinely put him in motion to give him some separation and momentum pre-snap, especially near the red-zone. Not once did I see that play last season.
[/quote]

Oh I agree, Boldin could have been used in more ways, and Cam has to do a better job at that this year no doubt. I've never completely exonerated Cam when it came to the lack of production offensively.

However when you look at our overall team last season, which WR could be used to attack the defense in different ways like we used Boldin? The Ravens used Boldin to attempt to open things up for Mason, Housh and Heap. But when it came time to open things up for Boldin none of those guys really could.

So it seemed as if during the second half of the season, the Ravens used Boldin as a decoy as much if not more then their #1 option. There were also times when Joe didn't even look Boldin's way and other times Cam failed to get Q involved.

With a guy like Q, you have to get him involved in the offense, even if he's double covered because covering him can be a pain for any defense. So Cam has to get better at that this year, and Flacco has to get better at going through his progressing faster to locate Boldin.

[Ravensfan23]

[quote name='RavenDude11' timestamp='1307666055' post='695035']
I think the biggest problem with the Ravens passing game is the over complicating of the simple. I don't know how Cam designs his plays but I guarantee it takes a high level of execution to make them work and as we all know by now there's probably zero flexibility involved. I'll take a wild guess and bet most of the routes ran have multiple options for specific coverage (if he plays off go here instead, if the safety comes down cut this way, cover 2 - break off to that spot, if he does that, bob here, weave there, zag if he zigs, ect). Now add into the mix Joe's progressions (this WR, that WR, then this WR, but if this safety plays deep hit this guy, if this LB goes there throw here, if this WR does that you do this + account for the different route patterns, + having to know evry play of every formation inside and out) It's too much to analyze. IMO, Joe is the type of guy who performs best when he reacts, not thinks. It seems to me when he runs the hurry up offense he's decisive, he executes drives with higher consistency, and he's more focused. [i]"Look here, nope he's not open, look over here, nope he's not open either, let me look over here real quick, ahh he's open, ok, throw the ball, bingo, he caught it, he scored, that was easy, yay im good"[/i] He plays ball, reacts, and does what comes natural. But nothing about Cam Cameron's offense is natural. The system we have now I'm not sure if even Payton Manning could make it work. Cam is probably one of the most creative, smartest play designers in the league and I'm sure he has a play that can beat every coverage if this, this, and that happens...the problem is trying to do this, this and that when ur fatigued, tired, in pain, pressured, wr runs the wrong way, a linemen misses a block, RB forgets to chip...in other words there's not a lot of room for error. We have the players. In fact we probably have the best roster in the NFL, but the system, the system does not allow our players to reach their potential.

Prime example: ANQUAN BOLDIN

Pro Bowl WR in Arizona, Disappearing act in Baltimore. Unless he forgot how to play over night I would assume the system is at fault. Which leads me to this point. If Cam Cameron's system can cage a beast of a player like Anquan Boldin what is it doing to Joe Flacco, Ray Rice, LeRon McClain? What if they're potential is being held back and if that's the case how scary good could they be in the [i]right[/i] system?
[/quote]

I couldn't disagree more, in fact there might not be a single post I've disagreed with more then this one.

Are you really telling me that Cam's offense(regradless of good or bad) is too complex for the best players in the world to grasp? For the same reason why you say Cam and his offense isn't working, is the same reason why the Ravens will be so successful once the right pieces are placed in this offense. Hopefully that's this year with the young guys we have.

Now I'll admit Cam's offense being so complexed is one of the main reasons Flacco was held back last season, but only because the Ravens hesitated to put the offense fully in Flacco's hands. I would say it was more because of 2 new WRs and a mixed up Oline, rather then the offense being too complex. This season Flacco should have a full grasp of this offense and he still has enough familiar pieces(Mason, Boldin, Heap and Rice) around him to reach his full potential this season without young guys holding him back because of chemistry. But to say things should be dumbed down, so the guys on offense can execute better, wow.

I refuse to believe that Cam could be responsible for 3 top 10 offenses in his 5 season while with the Chargers, but our offensive players aren't smart enough or good enough to pick up his system.

Would a offense like the Falcons be easier to pick up, yea probably. However something being easier isn't always the best.

Cam's offense being harder to execute means, the players have to be more discipline and pay greater attention to details. Much like the Colts offense under Manning, or the Chargers offense under Rivers. Or any success offense in the NFL.

As far as Boldin disappearing, the guy had 64rec 837yds 13.1ypc and 7TD, I wouldn't call that disappearing. Was it his usual pro bowl type season? No but it was hardly disappearing.

It was Boldin's first season in our offense, and pretty much ever defense treated him like our #1 WR. For people who continue to refer to the Cardinals as the way the Ravens should use Boldin, We are not the Cardinals and the 2 offensive systems are completely different.

Since Boldin has been a Cardinal, they've only had 2 seasons where a RB has rushed for 1,000 yards or more. They are a pass first team, the Ravens are a run first team. Cam is a OC that believes in using the power running game to set up the play action. Would it be great for Cam to incorporation some of what ARI does, of course, but that can be said about any successful offense.

Boldin's number last season were on par with others from his time in Arizona, the only thing was his opportunities.

During his time in ARI, Boldin averaged about 13 yards per catch and 7 TDs. Last season Boldin had 13.1ypc and 7TDs. In Arizona Boldin was in a pass first offense with Fitz on the other side of him. In Baltimore Boldin was the #1 WR in a run first offense that couldn't run the ball. That had just as much to do with his drop in numbers as the system itself.

As for guys not being used to their full potential, come on really? As fans do we not like Cam Cameron that much that we are relegated to believe that his offense is too difficult to execute and players aren't reaching their fullest potential?

Who's to say that any other coach would have used Ray Rice as well as Cam has. Rice only had about 20 catches his entire collegiate career. There was no way of knowing Rice would be as successful as a pass catcher as he was, Cam is the guy that used him that way.

McClain was drafted as nothing more then a FB. It was Cam who scouted him as a RB in Miami and used him as such with the Ravens. Who's to say that McClain would have even gotten the opportunity to be even a short yardage back else where?

Flacco has improved each year in the NFL, all 3 of them. He's a top 10 QB right now, other then Tom Brady(MVP) Flacco had the best passer rating and TD-INT ratio in the NFL after week 2 last season. But Cam has nothing to do with any of that right? Instead he's just the guy that preventing Flacco from being Brady, Manning, Brees, or Rodgers in only his 3rd season, as if those guys had tremendous amounts of success in their first 3 seasons.

Cam Cameron isn't perfect as an OC or a play caller, but some of you guys act as if he's the worse thing that's ever happened to the Ravens.

Cam's offense is too complex for Flacco to succeed in really? Now I agree that we have great success when we go NO Huddle and have a quicker pace, but that doesn't mean Cam's offense is too complex.

My apologies for the long post guys, but sometimes things get out of hand when Cam Cameron gets involved. Also I know I'm not doing much to help the matter, with this long post, but lets not make this thread about Cam. Let's keep it about Q being used in the Slot.

[PurpleGreek]

Cam Failed.

Boldin is an intimidating, physical WR who beats up on corners and safeties. How many slants, quick slants, or sluggos did we run in 18 games last season? 3?

Failure.


GO BALTIMORE.

[PurpleReign92]

I think he learned something from Fitz because Boldin gets up real high for the catch.
He also is a good motivator on the sidelines and pumps up this offense when they are in a slump...

[Guest ArmyRaven52]

[quote name='Ravensfan23' timestamp='1307680861' post='695154']
I couldn't disagree more, in fact there might not be a single post I've disagreed with more then this one.

Are you really telling me that Cam's offense(regradless of good or bad) is too complex for the best players in the world to grasp? For the same reason why you say Cam and his offense isn't working, is the same reason why the Ravens will be so successful once the right pieces are placed in this offense. Hopefully that's this year with the young guys we have.

Now I'll admit Cam's offense being so complexed is one of the main reasons Flacco was held back last season, but only because the Ravens hesitated to put the offense fully in Flacco's hands. I would say it was more because of 2 new WRs and a mixed up Oline, rather then the offense being too complex. This season Flacco should have a full grasp of this offense and he still has enough familiar pieces(Mason, Boldin, Heap and Rice) around him to reach his full potential this season without young guys holding him back because of chemistry. But to say things should be dumbed down, so the guys on offense can execute better, wow.

[b]I refuse to believe that Cam could be responsible for 3 top 10 offenses in his 5 season while with the Chargers, but our offensive players aren't smart enough or good enough to pick up his system. [/b]

Would a offense like the Falcons be easier to pick up, yea probably. However something being easier isn't always the best.

Cam's offense being harder to execute means, the players have to be more discipline and pay greater attention to details. Much like the Colts offense under Manning, or the Chargers offense under Rivers. Or any success offense in the NFL.

As far as Boldin disappearing, the guy had 64rec 837yds 13.1ypc and 7TD, I wouldn't call that disappearing. Was it his usual pro bowl type season? No but it was hardly disappearing.

It was Boldin's first season in our offense, and pretty much ever defense treated him like our #1 WR. For people who continue to refer to the Cardinals as the way the Ravens should use Boldin, We are not the Cardinals and the 2 offensive systems are completely different.

Since Boldin has been a Cardinal, they've only had 2 seasons where a RB has rushed for 1,000 yards or more. They are a pass first team, the Ravens are a run first team. Cam is a OC that believes in using the power running game to set up the play action. Would it be great for Cam to incorporation some of what ARI does, of course, but that can be said about any successful offense.

Boldin's number last season were on par with others from his time in Arizona, the only thing was his opportunities.

During his time in ARI, Boldin averaged about 13 yards per catch and 7 TDs. Last season Boldin had 13.1ypc and 7TDs. In Arizona Boldin was in a pass first offense with Fitz on the other side of him. In Baltimore Boldin was the #1 WR in a run first offense that couldn't run the ball. That had just as much to do with his drop in numbers as the system itself.

As for guys not being used to their full potential, come on really? As fans do we not like Cam Cameron that much that we are relegated to believe that his offense is too difficult to execute and players aren't reaching their fullest potential?

Who's to say that any other coach would have used Ray Rice as well as Cam has. Rice only had about 20 catches his entire collegiate career. There was no way of knowing Rice would be as successful as a pass catcher as he was, Cam is the guy that used him that way.

McClain was drafted as nothing more then a FB. It was Cam who scouted him as a RB in Miami and used him as such with the Ravens. Who's to say that McClain would have even gotten the opportunity to be even a short yardage back else where?

Flacco has improved each year in the NFL, all 3 of them. He's a top 10 QB right now, other then Tom Brady(MVP) Flacco had the best passer rating and TD-INT ratio in the NFL after week 2 last season. But Cam has nothing to do with any of that right? Instead he's just the guy that preventing Flacco from being Brady, Manning, Brees, or Rodgers in only his 3rd season, as if those guys had tremendous amounts of success in their first 3 seasons.

Cam Cameron isn't perfect as an OC or a play caller, but some of you guys act as if he's the worse thing that's ever happened to the Ravens.

Cam's offense is too complex for Flacco to succeed in really? Now I agree that we have great success when we go NO Huddle and have a quicker pace, but that doesn't mean Cam's offense is too complex.

My apologies for the long post guys, but sometimes things get out of hand when Cam Cameron gets involved. Also I know I'm not doing much to help the matter, with this long post, but lets not make this thread about Cam. Let's keep it about Q being used in the Slot.
[/quote]

I can agree with some of what your saying, I truely can, but the bolded area, come on man. I know the Ravens fans who defend cam use that as their war cry, but really. There was a guy who was named Marty Schottenheimer who was coincidentally a coach of the year, but he put all the pieces together there. Not cam, I would honestly be surprised if he called 50 % of the plays. Not to mention that when Cam was their that version of LT was as close to unstoppable as the league had seen in quite some time. Not to mention phillip rivers came out of NC State as the most accurate big time QB in that draft. He does not get credit for that in my opinion, but you are welcome to tear this post apart if you wish. Just be reasonable.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='ArmyRaven52' timestamp='1307764859' post='695681']
]I can agree with some of what your saying, I truely can, but the bolded area, come on man. [b]I know the Ravens fans who defend cam use that as their war cry, but really. There was a guy who was named Marty Schottenheimer who was coincidentally a coach of the year, but he put all the pieces together there. Not cam, [/b]I would honestly be surprised if he called 50 % of the plays.[/b] Not to mention that when Cam was their that version of LT was as close to unstoppable as the league had seen in quite some time. [b]Not to mention phillip rivers came out of NC State as the most accurate big time QB in that draft. He does not get credit for that in my opinion[/b], but you are welcome to tear this post apart if you wish. Just be reasonable.
[/quote]

It's not a "war cry", it's reality. You ended your post telling someone to be reasonable but also claim you'd be surprised if Cam called 50% of the plays during his time with San Diego. I highly doubt Cam would have been offered a head coaching position after Marty was fired if he wasn't the primary play-caller.

So Cam deserves no credit for the development of Rivers?

[grape drank]

Boldin also had to get used to being double covered as well, as it was typically Larry who garnered the most attention from defences in AZ

[Ravensfan23]

[quote name='ArmyRaven52' timestamp='1307764859' post='695681']
I can agree with some of what your saying, I truely can, but the bolded area, come on man. I know the Ravens fans who defend cam use that as their war cry, but really. There was a guy who was named Marty Schottenheimer who was coincidentally a coach of the year, but he put all the pieces together there. Not cam, I would honestly be surprised if he called 50 % of the plays. Not to mention that when Cam was their that version of LT was as close to unstoppable as the league had seen in quite some time. Not to mention Phillip rivers came out of NC State as the most accurate big time QB in that draft. He does not get credit for that in my opinion, but you are welcome to tear this post apart if you wish. Just be reasonable.
[/quote]

I've never defended Cam to the point where I've needed a war cry. I've given Cam his fair share of blame for us not having enough success on offense last season, but I personally refuse to place total blame on him when there are 20-25 guys on offense who didn't carry there weight as well. Fact is fact imo, regardless of who the brunt of the blame falls on as a result of the facts.

As far as his time in SD, why credit the players in his system for being great, but exonerate the Ravens players for not making this offense work?

LT, was one of the best in the NFL during Cam's time in SD, but does Ray Rice not have the potential to be the same here with the Ravens?

I give LT all the credit in the world but he was running behind a really dominate offensive line. Can you honestly say the Raven's oline was even close to dominate last year? If your answer to that is no, then that falls under player execution. Our Oline didn't perfrom poorly because of a complex playbook, because in 2009 we had one of the better offensive lines in the NFL. So what happened with the playbook between 2009 and 2010?

As for Rivers, Philip only played one season under Cam. For 4 of Cam's 5 seasons with the Chargers, Brees was his QB. And not even the best of QB guru's thought Brees would turn out to be the QB he is today between the years of 2002-2005. So being blessed with great talent isn't the only reason Cam had success.

Does having really good talent help? Of course, any coach will admit to that. Honestly it seems to me that most Ravens fans dislike Cam because they don't feel as if he's capable of using our talent well. So if it was just a talent thing, then the Ravens offense would have been great.

Cam or whomever you choose to give credit for SD's success from 2002-2006, lead a explosive offense with a dominate running game, and a TE as their #1 option. Sound familiar? The Chargers never had a above average WR corp under Cam, yet they made the offense work. Why? because the players executed the offense well.

I refuse to believe that the Ravens offensive players aren't good enough or smart enough to pick up Cam's offense because it's too complex.

Yes Cam's offense is complex, and because he's more of a chess player as a play caller, he tends to out-smart himself at times. The sack fumble vs Pit and the 3rd and 2 against Hou when they had no Timeouts left with 2:58 left on the clock are examples of that. However, as poorly as he handled Stallworth, Reed and even Boldin to an extent, the players not executing had just as much to do with our failures as anything else.

And to say they didn't execute well because Cam's offense is too complex is just laughable to me.

[Ravensfan23]

[quote name='grape drank' timestamp='1307768255' post='695692']
Boldin also had to get used to being double covered as well, as it was typically Larry who garnered the most attention from defences in AZ
[/quote]

Yea and Cam also has to adjust to having Boldin as his #1 WR. Cam needs to find ways to get Boldin the ball more, and earlier. However, you can almost understand how a guy can seemingly disappear in an offense when you have Heap, Rice, and Mason who are all reliable pass catches. Even Housh, despite the crucial drops.

Honestly, I don't think it was easy for Cam or Joe to keep all those guys happy, when you consider the caliber of WR those guys are. Especially when the offense wasn't working and all those guys thought if they were given more opportunities to make plays that things would be better.

Mason, Boldin and Housh were all guys that are used to being heavily involved in the offense, even Heap and Rice, although never of those guys have the get me the Ball mentality of our WRs last year.

Being in year 2 of these offense, Cam should have a better understanding of how to use Boldin, and Flacco should be a lot more comfortable with giving Q opportunities even when he seems covered.

I look for things to be much better this year.

[BloodRaven]

I'd say he's also in decline, 31 isn't really the death knell for a top flight receiver but it generally is for a running back, Q has played and taken hits like a running back over his career.

[PurpleReign92]

[quote name='Ravensfan23' timestamp='1307774147' post='695700']
Yea and Cam also has to adjust to having Boldin as his #1 WR. Cam needs to find ways to get Boldin the ball more, and earlier. However, you can almost understand how a guy can seemingly disappear in an offense when you have Heap, Rice, and Mason who are all reliable pass catches. Even Housh, despite the crucial drops.

Honestly, I don't think it was easy for Cam or Joe to keep all those guys happy, when you consider the caliber of WR those guys are. Especially when the offense wasn't working and all those guys thought if they were given more opportunities to make plays that things would be better.

Mason, Boldin and Housh were all guys that are used to being heavily involved in the offense, even Heap and Rice, although never of those guys have the get me the Ball mentality of our WRs last year.

Being in year 2 of these offense, Cam should have a better understanding of how to use Boldin, and Flacco should be a lot more comfortable with giving Q opportunities even when he seems covered.

I look for things to be much better this year.
[/quote]
In all honesty your point is pretty clear. There are not only just 2 offensive players that are capable of making plays on this Squad. This offense, the QB and the RBs/Receiving corps just needs to be patient and not have an overestimated expectation of there performance...

[Ravensfan23]

[quote name='BloodRaven' timestamp='1307779374' post='695704']
I'd say he's also in decline, 31 isn't really the death knell for a top flight receiver but it generally is for a running back, Q has played and taken hits like a running back over his career.
[/quote]

Well anyone that's 31 and heading into their 9th NFL Season will probably be considered in decline. Even the great Ray Lewis is in decline, however much like Ray, Boldin in decline is still good enough to be one of the better players at his position.

What you hope is that over the next 3-5 years, these young guys like Smith, Doss, Reed, Hardy, Dickson and Pitta, will help take pressure away from Boldin and allow him to just another guy in our offense instead of the driving force behind our offense.

If the young guys step up and produce in the roles we potentially see them in, then not only would it take coverage away from boldin, but it's also create space to allow him to do what he does best. Out muscle smaller DBs.

[PurpleReign92]

[quote name='Ravensfan23' timestamp='1307808104' post='695758']
Well anyone that's 31 and heading into their 9th NFL Season will probably be considered in decline. Even the great Ray Lewis is in decline, however much like Ray, Boldin in decline is still good enough to be one of the better players at his position.

What you hope is that over the next 3-5 years, these young guys like Smith, Doss, Reed, Hardy, Dickson and Pitta, will help take pressure away from Boldin and allow him to just another guy in our offense instead of the driving force behind our offense.

If the young guys step up and produce in the roles we potentially see them in, then not only would it take coverage away from boldin, but it's also create space to allow him to do what he does best. Out muscle smaller DBs.
[/quote]

Sometimes it just really depends on which corner is playing against what receiver.
If Revis is man to man on Boldin the it is highly unlikely that the pass will be headed to Boldin. If the WR can create enough separation amongst there routes then there is a good possibility that some of the younger Wideouts would have a field day in a Raven uniform and thus have there stock go up...

[Gordo52]

I think he did alright for his first year! I wasnt expecting him to be an elite WR. But the more time and chemistry he and Joe develops the better the both will be.

[Guest ArmyRaven52]

[quote name='Ravensfan23' timestamp='1307773495' post='695698']
I've never defended Cam to the point where I've needed a war cry. I've given Cam his fair share of blame for us not having enough success on offense last season, but I personally refuse to place total blame on him when there are 20-25 guys on offense who didn't carry there weight as well. Fact is fact imo, regardless of who the brunt of the blame falls on as a result of the facts.

As far as his time in SD, why credit the players in his system for being great, but exonerate the Ravens players for not making this offense work?

[b]LT, was one of the best in the NFL during Cam's time in SD, but does Ray Rice not have the potential to be the same here with the Ravens?
[/b]
[b]I give LT all the credit in the world but he was running behind a really dominate offensive line. Can you honestly say the Raven's oline was even close to dominate last year?[/b] If your answer to that is no, then that falls under player execution. Our Oline didn't perfrom poorly because of a complex playbook, because in 2009 we had one of the better offensive lines in the NFL. So what happened with the playbook between 2009 and 2010?

As for Rivers, Philip only played one season under Cam. For 4 of Cam's 5 seasons with the Chargers, Brees was his QB. And not even the best of QB guru's thought Brees would turn out to be the QB he is today between the years of 2002-2005. So being blessed with great talent isn't the only reason Cam had success.

Does having really good talent help? Of course, any coach will admit to that. Honestly it seems to me that most Ravens fans dislike Cam because they don't feel as if he's capable of using our talent well. So if it was just a talent thing, then the Ravens offense would have been great.

Cam or whomever you choose to give credit for SD's success from 2002-2006, lead a explosive offense with a dominate running game, and a TE as their #1 option. Sound familiar? The Chargers never had a above average WR corp under Cam, yet they made the offense work. [b]Why? because the players executed the offense well. [/b]

I refuse to believe that the Ravens offensive players aren't good enough or smart enough to pick up Cam's offense because it's too complex.

[b]Yes Cam's offense is complex, and because he's more of a chess player as a play caller, he tends to out-smart himself at times.[/b] The sack fumble vs Pit and the 3rd and 2 against Hou when they had no Timeouts left with 2:58 left on the clock are examples of that. However, as poorly as he handled Stallworth, Reed and even Boldin to an extent, the players not executing had just as much to do with our failures as anything else.

And to say they didn't execute well because Cam's offense is too complex is just laughable to me.
[/quote]

1.) Ray Rice have the potential to be another LT? NO, as good as he is he will not be an Lt from the 2002-2006, there were very few RB's in history that you could game plan for and still lose. That is not Ray Rice he is a very good back and I love his tough running style, however in his prime LT could be talked about the top 3 GOAT at his position. So to answer your question I don't ever see RR doing that.

2.) That really "dominant" line you were talking about from 2002-2006, Have 1 pro bowl combined. Nick hardwick. Just to put that in perspective Matt Birk had more than their entire offensive line during that span. I think I prefer our line from last year to theirs any day.

3.) The reason his offense worked is because LT averaged over 350 carries a season. There is talk that RR should have less carries because of stature I'm assuming. http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d8201500c/article/running-the-show-no-surprises-atop-list-of-nfls-best-rbs. So yeah execution or having somebody for those 4 years, that was the greatest the game had seen since the early 90's with Emmit. That all being said how hard is your offensive game plan when you say I am giving the ball to LT 30-35 times a game. . And for you to say they did not have a above average recieving corps is crazy. during that span they had McCardell, who was a pro-bowler, Kassim Osgood who was a pro-bowler, and Vincent Jackson who the year after cam left made the probowl. Is that just an insane good recieving corps no, but to say not above average isnt fair, they got overshadowed by LT. (who not to mention was running behind Lorenzo Neal, who is an all pro as you well know.)

4.) And if cameron is a chess player at calling then he needs to spend more time with kasparov. Out smarting himself is just as bad as being incompetent because they will equate to the same on a football field.

5.) As for developing young QB's there is a guy named Brian Schottenheimer who seems very adept at developing young QB's. The entire time he was there was when Brees was going off, and then got him the deal to the saints. So saying that cam is a master mind at developing young Qb's does not hold water. It seems to me joe thinks so too because of the comments he made when Zorn got let go( I am not going to put words in his mouth however.) It just seems to me Zorn put in all the ground work to get joe where he is.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='ArmyRaven52' timestamp='1307846858' post='695911']
1.) Ray Rice have the potential to be another LT? NO, as good as he is he will not be an Lt from the 2002-2006, there were very few RB's in history that you could game plan for and still lose. That is not Ray Rice he is a very good back and I love his tough running style, however in his prime LT could be talked about the top 3 GOAT at his position. So to answer your question I don't ever see RR doing that.

[b]2.) That really "dominant" line you were talking about from 2002-2006, Have 1 pro bowl combined. Nick hardwick. Just to put that in perspective Matt Birk had more than their entire offensive line during that span. I think I prefer our line from last year to theirs any day.[/b]

3.) The reason his offense worked is because LT averaged over 350 carries a season. There is talk that RR should have less carries because of stature I'm assuming. http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d8201500c/article/running-the-show-no-surprises-atop-list-of-nfls-best-rbs. So yeah execution or having somebody for those 4 years, that was the greatest the game had seen since the early 90's with Emmit. That all being said how hard is your offensive game plan when you say I am giving the ball to LT 30-35 times a game. . [b]And for you to say they did not have a above average recieving corps is crazy. during that span they had McCardell, who was a pro-bowler, Kassim Osgood who was a pro-bowler, and Vincent Jackson who the year after cam left made the probowl. Is that just an insane good recieving corps no, but to say not above average isnt fair, they got overshadowed by LT.[/b] (who not to mention was running behind Lorenzo Neal, who is an all pro as you well know.)

4.) And if cameron is a chess player at calling then he needs to spend more time with kasparov. Out smarting himself is just as bad as being incompetent because they will equate to the same on a football field.

[b]5.) As for developing young QB's there is a guy named Brian Schottenheimer who seems very adept at developing young QB's. The entire time he was there was when Brees was going off, and then got him the deal to the saints. So saying that cam is a master mind at developing young Qb's does not hold water. It seems to me joe thinks so too because of the comments he made when Zorn got let go( I am not going to put words in his mouth however.) It just seems to me Zorn put in all the ground work to get joe where he is.[/b]
[/quote]

2. You can't be serious. When did Pro Bowls become the sole determining factor in how good a player is? L.T. was a special player on his own from '02 to '06 but let's not pretend he didn't enjoy some fabulous blocking during that time either. It's no coincidence he enjoyed the best season of his career the year Marcus McNeil was drafted.

3. The WR corps Cam had [i]were[/i] below average. McCardell was at the end of the road during Cam's time there and only produced one healthy season. V-Jax was stuck behind veterans the year before Cam left. As for Osgood, he was a Pro Bowl for his work on [i]special teams[/i].

5. Cam was the play-caller and was instrumental in helping developing Brees. Why you want to credit only Brian Schottenheimer is beyond me. I don't see how you can say calling Cam an accomplished developer of QBs "holds no water" there's a substantial list of relatively successful QBs Cam coached.

Your last sentence is a joke. How much "groundwork" could Zorn have put in coaching Joe for one season? I'm not saying he didn't help Joe at all but to credit him entirely for where Joe is as a QB is just irrational.