O-Line Analysis

[flynismo]

[quote name='gabefergy' timestamp='1307661197' post='695002']<br />The O-line did absolutely man-handle the opposition in that game, Birk included. However, I would be inclined to think that had more to do with the abysmal talent level Denver has at DT. How they completely whiffed at drafting any help along that line boggles my mind.<br />[/quote]

very true, it would have been a sad day if we couldn't smack Denver's DL around, especially knowing that their only decent pass rusher (Dumervil) wasn't playing.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='RavensAllTheWay' timestamp='1307661476' post='695003']
Man, how many times am I going to hear, "Flacco struggles to get the ball out of bounds."? Forget numbers for a minute. I clearly remember many plays last season where he was immediately flushed out of the pocket by someone in his face and he threw it away quickly. In fact, there were times I would get mad at Joe for giving up on a play too quickly.
[/quote]

He also took some bad sacks as well. The Jets game(the first snap from scrimmage to be specific), both Bengals games and the games against the Broncos, Panthers, Buccs, and Texans offer examples.

[flynismo]

,[quote name='Ed_Reed20' timestamp='1307661666' post='695005']<br />I don't disagree the o-line had their issues. Anyone could see they did. However, it doesn't seem outlandish that film review shows they weren't at fault as often as we'd like to believe. <br /><br />Judging what players surrender pressure isn't an exact science but to me, their analysis isn't that off.  <br /><br /><br /><br />Can't argue with that.<br />[/quote]


when you say 'they weren't to blame as often as we like to think', that essentially turns it into a very subjective topic...because I think we can all agree our OL sucked last year, regardless of any stats. So then the question becomes who IS to blame, if not them?
I think it goes back to what we talked about in another thread....a combination of the new scheme and just poor play.

It's amazing how we made pretty much every mistake possible on offense last year. Poor execution, crucial turnovers, poor schemes, poor play calling. We are lucky to have done as well as we did, all things considered.,,,,

[RavensAllTheWay]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' timestamp='1307661906' post='695008']
He also took some bad sacks as well. The Jets game(the first snap from scrimmage to be specific), both Bengals games and the games against the Broncos, Panthers, Buccs, and Texans offer examples.
[/quote]
Absolutely. Hearing the word about how Gerald McCoy was failing to reach expectations as a pass rusher and then watching him have a huge game against us was annoying. It did indeed help that Flacco held onto the ball far too long. The first play against the Jets is a given. However, the Houston Texans game....that was when Rice and McClain's struggles to pick up blitzes were on full display. For whatever reason, they just could not block that game (mainly Pollard was killing us). And if I remember correctly, that was one of the games in which he did a nice job throwing the ball out of bounds given the circumstances.

It's no secret that Joe held onto the ball too long very often last season. However, I personally just can't find it in me to excuse blocking from sacks. Even when a QB holds on longer and puts the blockers in a situation they should not be in, they still need to block. I'll admit I'm not the one to go to when it comes to grading each individual O lineman's performances....and even though it was evident that most of the pressure was given up by Oher and Chester, I was stunned to read such high evaluations of Birk and Yanda.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1307662353' post='695009']
when you say 'they weren't to blame as often as we like to think', that essentially turns it into a very subjective topic...because I think we can all agree our OL sucked last year, regardless of any stats. So then the question becomes who IS to blame, if not them?
I think it goes back to what we talked about in another thread....a combination of the new scheme and just poor play.

It's amazing how we made pretty much every mistake possible on offense last year. Poor execution, crucial turnovers, poor schemes, poor play calling. We are lucky to have done as well as we did, all things considered.,,,,
[/quote]

I'm not absolving the o-line of blame entirely. In light of reading these articles and actually going back and watching some highlights and low-lights though, I don't think they deserve as much blame. The scheme bears some responsibility, as does the QB and skill players that had to block.

I agree with your last point.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='RavensAllTheWay' timestamp='1307662929' post='695013']
Absolutely. Hearing the word about how Gerald McCoy was failing to reach expectations as a pass rusher and then watching him have a huge game against us was annoying. It did indeed help that Flacco held onto the ball far too long. The first play against the Jets is a given. However, the Houston Texans game....that was when Rice and McClain's struggles to pick up blitzes were on full display. For whatever reason, they just could not block that game (mainly Pollard was killing us). And if I remember correctly, that was one of the games in which he did a nice job throwing the ball out of bounds given the circumstances.

It's no secret that Joe held onto the ball too long very often last season. However, I personally just can't find it in me to excuse blocking from sacks. Even when a QB holds on longer and puts the blockers in a situation they should not be in, they still need to block. I'll admit I'm not the one to go to when it comes to grading each individual O lineman's performances....and even though it was evident that most of the pressure was given up by Oher and Chester, I was stunned to read such high evaluations of Birk and Yanda.
[/quote]


You're right that Joe dealt with the pressure relatively well at times against the Texans. I take back that as one of the games he took bad sacks in.

There are definitely situations where you expect the blocking to hold, even if it's for a little longer than usual. However, at some point, the QB has to get rid of the rock.

Yanda rating so highly wasn't a huge surprise. Peter King had him on his mid-season All-Pro team and his play certainly didn't fall off a cliff in the second half.

Birk getting high marks was a bit of a surprise at first but I guess the film doesn't lie.

[izvoodoo]

there were times when Oher looked pretty good. against the second half of kansas city he pretty much man handled Tamba Hali. Jamse Harrison also had 0 sacks the first two meetings. But oher got good help, so I wouldn't say he's a shiv. But Chris Chester is not a guard, he's a serviceable center.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='izvoodoo' timestamp='1307664220' post='695026']
there were times when Oher looked pretty good. against the second half of kansas city he pretty much man handled Tamba Hali. [b]Jamse Harrison also had 0 sacks the first two meetings.[/b] But oher got good help, so I wouldn't say he's a shiv. But Chris Chester is not a guard, he's a serviceable center.
[/quote]

But he did surrender pressure which can be detrimental as well.

[PurpleReign92]

[quote name='izvoodoo' timestamp='1307664220' post='695026']
there were times when Oher looked pretty good. against the second half of kansas city he pretty much man handled Tamba Hali. Jamse Harrison also had 0 sacks the first two meetings. But oher got good help, so I wouldn't say he's a shiv. But Chris Chester is not a guard, he's a serviceable center.
[/quote]

To add to what you are saying even though nothing is proven yet about the right side of the o-line.
From films I see that Jah Reid can open up some real time holes for Ray Rice and our modo "run first team," will get us that extra yard for the 1st down...

[Ed_Reed20]

PFF is shifting their pass protection analysis to individual players this week.

[url="http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2011/06/13/2010-pass-blocking-efficiency-tackles/"][u][b][size="2"]2010 Pass Blocking Efficiency: Tackles[/size][/b][/u][/url]

[s]I know Oher struggled but PFF only has four LTs rated lower than him.[/s] On the other side, Yanda was a top-five performer in pass protection.

EDIT: Oher actually ranked 5th in the bottom 15.

[Suggs Package]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' timestamp='1308018720' post='696656']
PFF is shifting their pass protection analysis to individual players this week.

[url="http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2011/06/13/2010-pass-blocking-efficiency-tackles/"][u][b][size="2"]2010 Pass Blocking Efficiency: Tackles[/size][/b][/u][/url]

I know Oher struggled but PFF only has four LTs rated lower than him. On the other side, Yanda was a top-five performer in pass protection.
[/quote]

Thanks for posting this article. I think you read the chart upside down though, because Oher graded better than 10 LTs, not 4. Besides that point, I've been saying since forever that Yanda is a top tier RT that can play RG and these numbers start to prove it. I believe he also graded as a top 5 run blocker too. I wish we would've drafted a RG so we would keep Yanda out there at RT, but we'll see how good Reid, Cousins, and company are.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='Suggs Package' timestamp='1308070476' post='696822']
Thanks for posting this article. I think you read the chart upside down though, because Oher graded better than 10 LTs, not 4. Besides that point, I've been saying since forever that Yanda is a top tier RT that can play RG and these numbers start to prove it. I believe he also graded as a top 5 run blocker too. I wish we would've drafted a RG so we would keep Yanda out there at RT, but we'll see how good Reid, Cousins, and company are.
[/quote]

You're right. My mistake.

I think it's better that Yanda move back to guard because he'll improve the interior push, especially in short-yardage situations.

On a related note, PFF published their article on guards and centers today.

[u][size="2"][b][url="http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2011/06/14/2010-pass-blocking-efficiency-guards-and-centers/"]2010 Pass Blocking Efficiency: Guards and Centers[/url][/b][/size][/u]

They have Birk ranked only behind Saturday among centers in pass blocking efficiency.

I was a little surprised not to see Grubbs nor Chester make the top and bottom 20 lists respectively. I'm guessing Ben was in the upper half half while Chris was closer to the bottom but I could be wrong.

Taking into account all the articles PFF has done on pass protection, the Ravens were simply uneven last season. Individually, Birk and Yanda excelled, Grubbs and Chester were somewhere in the middle and Oher struggled mightily. As a unit though, they were among the best in the league in limiting pressure. Meanwhile, the skill players gave up a lot of pressure when they had to block(which was often) and Joe didn't handle pressure as well as most of his peers.

[Suggs Package]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' timestamp='1308072401' post='696835']
You're right. My mistake.

I think it's better that Yanda move back to guard because he'll improve the interior push, especially in short-yardage situations.

On a related note, PFF published their article on guards and centers today.

[u][size="2"][b][url="http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2011/06/14/2010-pass-blocking-efficiency-guards-and-centers/"]2010 Pass Blocking Efficiency: Guards and Centers[/url][/b][/size][/u]

They have Birk ranked only behind Saturday among centers in pass blocking efficiency.

I was a little surprised not to see Grubbs nor Chester make the top and bottom 20 lists respectively. I'm guessing Ben was in the upper half half while Chris was closer to the bottom but I could be wrong.

Taking into account all the articles PFF has done on pass protection, the Ravens were simply uneven last season. Individually, Birk and Yanda excelled, Grubbs and Chester were somewhere in the middle and Oher struggled mightily. As a unit though, they were among the best in the league in limiting pressure. Meanwhile, the skill players gave up a lot of pressure when they had to block(which was often) and Joe didn't handle pressure as well as most of his peers.
[/quote]

Yeah, Oher struggle last year, but I would say he performed slightly below average for a starting LT in the NFL in pass pro. Grubbs, I think, is slightly overrated but still solid.

Also, it made me happy that the severely overrated Maurkice Pouncey appeared at the bottom of the list for centers.

Take a look at this: [url="http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol"][u][b]2010 OFFENSIVE LINES - Football Outsiders[/b][/u][/url]

Although the sack numbers don't take into account how long Flacco holds on to the ball, it's worth a look. The highlight is the run blocking numbers, where we ranked 2nd and 4th respectively in runs to the right tackle/right end. We were pretty much average in the run game everywhere else. The Yanda move to RT hurt our run game a lot more than our passing game in my opinion because we rarely run off-tackle and 60% of our runs are up the gut. For that reason, I'm starting to agree with you even though Yanda can be a Pro Bowl RT.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='Suggs Package' timestamp='1308077048' post='696887']
Yeah, Oher struggle last year, but I would say he performed slightly below average for a starting LT in the NFL in pass pro. Grubbs, I think, is slightly overrated but still solid.

Also, it made me happy that the severely overrated Maurkice Pouncey appeared at the bottom of the list for centers.

Take a look at this: [url="http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol"][u][b]2010 OFFENSIVE LINES - Football Outsiders[/b][/u][/url]

Although the sack numbers don't take into account how long Flacco holds on to the ball, it's worth a look. The highlight is the run blocking numbers, where we ranked 2nd and 4th respectively in runs to the right tackle/right end. We were pretty much average in the run game everywhere else. The Yanda move to RT hurt our run game a lot more than our passing game in my opinion because we rarely run off-tackle and 60% of our runs are up the gut. For that reason, I'm starting to agree with you even though Yanda can be a Pro Bowl RT.
[/quote]

Great post.

On top of the personnel changes, it's a good thing the team is returning to a power blocking scheme next season. Fly and I had a debate about it last week but he was right in saying the zone blocking scheme was an issue.

[FerrariFan87]

Currently reading "The Blind Side" and it's amazing what "Big Mike" went through to get where he is today. I'm proud that he's a Raven and that he'll be manning our O-line (LT or RT) for many, many years to come.

[PurpleReign92]

[quote name='FerrariFan87' timestamp='1308079220' post='696901']
Currently reading "The Blind Side" and it's amazing what "Big Mike" went through to get where he is today. I'm proud that he's a Raven and that he'll be manning our O-line (LT or RT) for many, many years to come.
[/quote]
Now with Gaither,Jah Reid, Yanda and Harewood, if these guys all compete in training camp, then Oher has to be that much better. If not he will just have to settle for a 6th man award...

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='PurpleReign92' timestamp='1308096302' post='697042']
Now with Gaither,Jah Reid, Yanda and Harewood, if these guys all compete in training camp, then Oher has to be that much better. If not he will just have to settle for a 6th man award...
[/quote]

There's a good chance Gaither won't be re-signed and Yanda will likely be moved back to guard.

[FerrariFan87]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' timestamp='1308097322' post='697052']
There's a good chance Gaither won't be re-signed and Yanda will likely be moved back to guard.
[/quote]

If his back checks out, we can't afford NOT to re-sign Gaither.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='FerrariFan87' timestamp='1308103795' post='697078']
If his back checks out, we can't afford NOT to re-sign Gaither.
[/quote]

I'm not sure about that. Ideally, I'd like to see Gaither re-signed but the offense isn't doomed if they don't. Jah Reid could surprise people and play well at RT.

[berad]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' timestamp='1308105814' post='697098']
I'm not sure about that. Ideally, I'd like to see Gaither re-signed but the offense isn't doomed if they don't. Jah Reid could surprise people and play well at RT.
[/quote]

I'll agree with this, we have some young talent we could plug at RT. Reid, Harewood, maybe even Cousins if he stays healthy. I just really don't want Chris Chester starting again.

[BloodRaven]

Theres a second part to the perception that our pass blocking was worse that it was graded, Flacco held on to the ball too long and graded one of the worst QB's in inviting pressure.

Everyone seems to think none of the blame is on Flacco and it's all on our receivers, yet I can't remember how many times Flacco missed someone wide open because he's locked on to someone who got bumped at the line.

[FerrariFan87]

[quote name='BloodRaven' timestamp='1308106580' post='697108']
Theres a second part to the perception that our pass blocking was worse that it was graded, Flacco held on to the ball too long and graded one of the worst QB's in inviting pressure.

Everyone seems to think none of the blame is on Flacco and it's all on our receivers, yet I can't remember how many times Flacco missed someone wide open because he's locked on to someone who got bumped at the line.
[/quote]

You're absolutely right... Joe missed a ton of wide open receivers because they weren't the first option and he held onto the ball as a result.

[FerrariFan87]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' timestamp='1308105814' post='697098']
I'm not sure about that. Ideally, I'd like to see Gaither re-signed but the offense isn't doomed if they don't. Jah Reid could surprise people and play well at RT.
[/quote]

No, not doomed, but having Gaither at LT and Oher at RT is MUCH better than Oher at LT and Reid or whoever else at RT.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='BloodRaven' timestamp='1308106580' post='697108']
Theres a second part to the perception that our pass blocking was worse that it was graded, Flacco held on to the ball too long and graded one of the worst QB's in inviting pressure.

Everyone seems to think none of the blame is on Flacco and it's all on our receivers, yet I can't remember how many times Flacco missed someone wide open because he's locked on to someone who got bumped at the line.
[/quote]

One of the articles did mention how much pressure Flacco invited.

[quote name='FerrariFan87' timestamp='1308106757' post='697113']
No, not doomed, but having Gaither at LT and Oher at RT is MUCH better than Oher at LT and Reid or whoever else at RT.
[/quote]

Indeed.

[Ed_Reed20]

[url="http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2011/06/15/three-year-pass-blocking-efficiency-offensive-linemen/"][size="2"][u][b]Three-Year Pass Blocking Efficiency: Offensive Lineman[/b][/u][/size][/url]

It really puts into perspective how good Gaither, Birk and Grubbs have been...and how bad Chester has been.

[Suggs Package]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' timestamp='1308160235' post='697282']
[url="http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2011/06/15/three-year-pass-blocking-efficiency-offensive-linemen/"][size="2"][u][b]Three-Year Pass Blocking Efficiency: Offensive Lineman[/b][/u][/size][/url]

It really puts into perspective how good Gaither, Birk and Grubbs have been...and how bad Chester has been.
[/quote]

Haha Chris Chester. I think part of the reason we switched to a zone scheme was because of him. Although he is weak at the point of attack, he's probably one of the most athletic OL in the league and a zone game plays to his strengths. He ran a freakish 4.8 at the combine at over 300 pounds to remind you.

When Gaither left the lineup, our OL got kinda small, with no one topping 315, so in theory our personnel fit zone schemes better. Chester doesn't have much technique either so it kinda backfired. And with power blocking back in place, he's no longer effective.

I think Chester can be a pretty decent OC though, I think it'll give him the chance to block more linebackers and less nose tackles and give him the chance to assist instead being the main guy on DTs. That may be the plan and the reason Chester is still on the roster.

[PWNEDbyDEANO]

Wow. I knew Gaither was good, but not that good. Grubbs is easily the most consistent and reliable member of our OL however.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='Suggs Package' timestamp='1308172220' post='697410']
[b]Haha Chris Chester. I think part of the reason we switched to a zone scheme was because of him. Although he is weak at the point of attack, he's probably one of the most athletic OL in the league and a zone game plays to his strengths. He ran a freakish 4.8 at the combine at over 300 pounds to remind you. [/b]

When Gaither left the lineup, our OL got kinda small, with no one topping 315, so in theory our personnel fit zone schemes better. Chester doesn't have much technique either so it kinda backfired. And with power blocking back in place, he's no longer effective.
[b]
I think Chester can be a pretty decent OC though, I think it'll give him the chance to block more linebackers and less nose tackles and give him the chance to assist instead being the main guy on DTs. That may be the plan and the reason Chester is still on the roster.[/b]
[/quote]

I disagree the team switched to a zone blocking scheme partly because of him. Had Gaither not gotten hurt, Chester would have been the sixth o-lineman at best. The decision to move to zone blocking scheme was likely made well before Gaither went down.

You're spot on with your last point though.

[url="http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/sports/ravens/blog/2011/06/chester_on_backup_plan.html"]Link[/url]

[PurpleReign92]

[quote name='FerrariFan87' timestamp='1308106757' post='697113']
No, not doomed, but having Gaither at LT and Oher at RT is MUCH better than Oher at LT and Reid or whoever else at RT.
[/quote]
I think with age not 10 years or a really seasoned players.
I mean around 2-3 years in the league you "[u][b]develop blocking Awareness[/b][/u]," I don't think Oher, or Reid who we have yet to see suit up have this. Not only do you have to account for the Qb but at times also the running game. Most Running backs in the league need a lead blocker wether this lead blocker is a full back, TE or lineman this is needed 90% of the time. The best lineman in the league are the ones that can read when the QB releases the ball and are ready to block for the running back so mental and physical flexibility is needed for a all pro lineman...

[Ed_Reed20]

Pass blocking by individual tight ends and backs was looked at last week...

[url="http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2011/06/16/2010-pass-blocking-efficiency-tight-ends/"][u][b]Pass Blocking Efficiency: Tight Ends[/b][/u][/url]

I was somewhat shocked to see Ed Dickson rank in the top ten in terms of efficiency. I remember his run blocking being sub-par though(even woeful at times).

Heap grading in the bottom for last season isn't a surprise. Blocking has never been his game.

[url="http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2011/06/17/2010-pass-blocking-efficiency-running-backs/"][u][b]Pass Blocking Efficiency: Running Backs [/b][/u][/url]

Rice and Le'Ron ranking so low was to be expected. To be fair to Rice though, I've frequently seen him allow pressure only to catch a dump-off from Joe in the same play the past two seasons. Still, I think the coaches deserve some blame for not putting Willis on the field in passing situations enough. Rice is a better receiver out of the backfield but McGahee is a far superior blocker in my opinion.