Cam Cameron Or Brian Billick

[Ravens Lover]

I would go with Billick his arrogance could maybe rub off on Flacco a little and give him a little more attitude, and when he did have a solid QB he created the 2nd best Offence in NFL history

[Guest ArmyRaven52]

I would rather have the 9 year old from remember the titans, or the guy workin the hot dog stand at M&T. They both seem to know what up when it comes to football I could live with them over Cam.

[berad]

Billick never "had" a QB or Billick never "made" a QB? I love Brian Billick, was sad to see him go, and am surprised that no other franchise has come biting but... it's hard to put what Billick did in 9 years over what Cameron has done in 3. We have a much better offense now than in the Billick-era and you can't discredit Cameron for that.

[ravensdfan]

[quote name='Ravensfan23' timestamp='1307391186' post='693745']
Other then last season with the Name(not production) where is all of this great offensive personnel that people assume Cam has.

Does anyone remember the reports coming out of camp back in 2008 about how terrible our Oline would be.

Mason has been the only consistent WR we had in Cam's first 2 seasons. Heap was much better in the Billick era, mainly because he was healthy. Although Ray Rice has great success in both the running and passing game, can we hands down say he's better then Jamal Lewis.

Can we hands down say LeRon McClain is better the Ovie?

Flacco is probably the only position that we could say hands down has been better then anything we saw in the Billick era.

In his first 2 seasons with the Ravens, Cam got about as much out of the talent we had as anyone could have.

Did Cam get the most out of his players last season? No way, but those players also failed alot. Look at all the dropped passes, missed blocking assignments, poor routes. There were times that this offense didn't even look like they practiced together before. Is a lot of that on Cam as well, absolutely. I would have loved to seen Cam bench guys like Mason and Housh just to send a message.

[b]To say Billick would have been better with the talent we have now is laughable to me, because in reality, until this year, the talent Cam had was on par to the talent Billick had.[/b]
[/quote]

I don't disagree with much of this post, but that part in bold, well, no. Billick never had a reliable QB. McNair had his moments but who can forget that choke vs the Colts? He was an up and down player. Cam had a rookie, yes, but he was a rookie with a rocket arm and decent accuracy even in his first year. Something Billick never had. And, remember, we are talking strictly about offense here. So the QB is a pivotal position to be lacking.

I agree that there was a definite lack of execution at times this past season. Some of that however DOES fall on Cam. Why? Because some of it was due to the impossible situations that his play calling put the players in.

I am not one of those people who would try to say that Cam has done nothing here. I think the problem is that Cam's style of coaching has limitations. Limitations that the Ravens' offense has outgrown. Unless Cam can get that through his head and get over his control freak tendencies, we are doomed to more of the same.

@fly If we could only combine a heaping tablespoon of Billick's faith with a pinch of Cam's cautiousness, we might have the perfect OC.

[flynismo]

[quote name='berad' timestamp='1307400712' post='693826']<br />Billick never &quot;had&quot; a QB or Billick never &quot;made&quot; a QB? I love Brian Billick, was sad to see him go, and am surprised that no other franchise has come biting but... it's hard to put what Billick did in 9 years over what Cameron has done in 3. We have a much better offense now than in the Billick-era and you can't discredit Cameron for that.<br />[/quote]


i dont think anyone is discrediting Cam just because he has better players. We are just using that as a barometer to make the comparison. Part of the fun of speculating is to guess how Billick would have fared with this arsenal that Cam has.

[flynismo]

[quote name='ravensdfan' timestamp='1307401840' post='693835']I agree that there was a definite lack of execution at times this past season. Some of that however DOES fall on Cam. Why? Because some of it was due to the impossible situations that his play calling put the players in. <br /><br />I am not one of those people who would try to say that Cam has done nothing here. I think the problem is that Cam's style of coaching has limitations. Limitations that the Ravens' offense has outgrown. Unless Cam can get that through his head and get over his control freak tendencies, we are doomed to more of the same.<br />[/quote]


probably the best summarization of Cam that I ever heard.
Everything that I think all wrapped into one post.

[berad]

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1307401880' post='693836']
i dont think anyone is discrediting Cam just because he has better players. We are just using that as a barometer to make the comparison. Part of the fun of speculating is to guess how Billick would have fared with this arsenal that Cam has.
[/quote]

It's not like Brian Billick didn't have talent. He had one of the best RBs and OLs in the game for a span. Billick's biggest problem was getting anything out of the QB and passing game, of course he had guys like Boller, Wright, etc but he chose those guys.

[flynismo]

[quote name='berad' timestamp='1307402178' post='693842']<br />It's not like Brian Billick didn't have talent. He had one of the best RBs and OLs in the game for a span. Billick's biggest problem was getting anything out of the QB and passing game, of course he had guys like Boller, Wright, etc but he chose those guys.<br />[/quote]


not saying he didnt have talent, but lacking a QB and WRs are a pretty big deal, no?
But regardless, I'm just saying Cam has more to work with than Billick ever did, as far as personnel goes.

[ravensfolife]

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1307327750' post='693476']
My thoughts exactly..my vote went to Billick
[/quote]


Same here, but maybe it was Billick that pushed for the wrong offensive players in the draft. If you think about it every first round defensive player we have ever pick is a hall of famer or mutiple time pro bowler (but I could be wrong). Jimmy Smith got alot to live up to.

[berad]

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1307402331' post='693844']
not saying he didnt have talent, but lacking a QB and WRs are a pretty big deal, no?
But regardless, I'm just saying Cam has more to work with than Billick ever did, as far as personnel goes.
[/quote]

Well Billick was responsible for the selection of those players, right? It's not like he just picked Boller from a hat... although I'd like to hope that happened.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='Ravens Lover' timestamp='1307399164' post='693814']
[b]I would go with Billick his arrogance could maybe rub off on Flacco a little and give him a little more attitude[/b], and when he did have a solid QB he created the 2nd best Offence in NFL history
[/quote]

Joe doesn't need "attitude". He isn't very demonstrative but that doesn't mean he lacks competitiveness.

[flynismo]

,[quote name='ravensfolife' timestamp='1307402604' post='693850']<br />Same here, but maybe it was Billick that pushed for the wrong offensive players in the draft. If you think about it every first round defensive player we have ever pick is a hall of famer or mutiple time pro bowler (but I could be wrong).  Jimmy Smith got alot to live up to.<br />[/quote]

He can push all he wants for x player, but ultimately it is a joint decision on who we draft. Ozzie is in charge, he gets the blame over all else for bringing in guys like Boller and Taylor.,,,,

[flynismo]

[quote name='berad' timestamp='1307402673' post='693852']<br />Well Billick was responsible for the selection of those players, right? It's not like he just picked Boller from a hat... although I'd like to hope that happened.<br />[/quote]

I'm sure he had input, probably strong input as has been speculated, but as I said above, he was just an OC, he doesn't make the final decisions. We have Ozzie and a scouting department for that, and to override any poor opinions.

[berad]

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1307402979' post='693856']
I'm sure he had input, probably strong input as has been speculated, but as I said above, he was just an OC, he doesn't make the final decisions. We have Ozzie and a scouting department for that, and to override any poor opinions.
[/quote]

Well Billick was the HC, not just OC. It's safe to say that he had a lot more influence than Cam ever did in the draft room.

[flynismo]

[quote name='berad' timestamp='1307403399' post='693858']<br />Well Billick was the HC, not just OC. It's safe to say that he had a lot more influence than Cam ever did in the draft room.<br />[/quote]

My bad, I meant HC not OC.
Either way, he doesn't over ride the entire system we have in place when it comes to drafting players. That is up to an entire department of people, Billick included.

At any rate, I'm not really debating which guy could draft better, I'm just debating their capacity as an OC.

[berad]

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1307403761' post='693864']
My bad, I meant HC not OC.
Either way, he doesn't over ride the entire system we have in place when it comes to drafting players. That is up to an entire department of people, Billick included.

[b]At any rate, I'm not really debating which guy could draft better, I'm just debating their capacity as an OC.
[/b][/quote]

And in that regard, there's really no question. The Billick-era is an example I use to make Cameron look good.

[Militant X 1]

Billick would do well with our present O-roster.

how weird would that be though? our former Head Coach coming back to Bmore as our O.C?

~Mili

[flynismo]

[quote name='berad' timestamp='1307403831' post='693865']<br />And in that regard, there's really no question. The Billick-era is an example I use to make Cameron look good.<br />[/quote]

considering that Billick has more than twice the votes that Cam does, I wouldn't say 'no question' Cam is better. Most people clearly feel otherwise.

[Ravensfan23]

[quote name='PWNEDbyDEANO' timestamp='1307395732' post='693785']
I think your point about the execution on the players part is key. This coupled with the constraints already on the offense & Cam due to the OL being poor for the most part is why I feel we failed. To clear this up: I don't think Billick would have done much, if any better in the situation last year, nor do I still feel that Cam should have been fired because of what happened. I would just be intrigued as to how far he could take this offense. I feel it could well be further than Cam could.
[/quote]

That's cool. I think from a personality stand point, Billick is a guy who's more aggressive and pass happy.

Cam, while aggressive in his own way, is a guy who call plays based on his feel of the game. It's more of a chess match with Cam. If this is working well, then that opens up and vice versa. But if this isn't working then it seems like you're constantly starting over offensively and trying to find your groove.

Cam's a guy who would pound you with the running game and not really care if we passed more then 10 times

Billick's a guy who hated the fact that we were a run first team.

So if Billick was our OC, Flacco probably would have passed the ball over 600 times in his rookie season like Sam Bradford did.

[Ravensfan23]

[quote name='ravensdfan' timestamp='1307401840' post='693835']
I don't disagree with much of this post, but that part in bold, well, no. Billick never had a reliable QB. McNair had his moments but who can forget that choke vs the Colts? He was an up and down player. Cam had a rookie, yes, but he was a rookie with a rocket arm and decent accuracy even in his first year. Something Billick never had. And, remember, we are talking strictly about offense here. So the QB is a pivotal position to be lacking.

I agree that there was a definite lack of execution at times this past season. Some of that however DOES fall on Cam. Why? Because some of it was due to the impossible situations that his play calling put the players in.

I am not one of those people who would try to say that Cam has done nothing here. I think the problem is that Cam's style of coaching has limitations. Limitations that the Ravens' offense has outgrown. Unless Cam can get that through his head and get over his control freak tendencies, we are doomed to more of the same.

@fly If we could only combine a heaping tablespoon of Billick's faith with a pinch of Cam's cautiousness, we might have the perfect OC.
[/quote]

If you look at the Ravens of 2008 and the Ravens of 2006, what was different? Yes Flacco was a decent QB, but why was he a decent QB? Because his OC put him in high percentage situations to succeed.

I'm not saying Billick wouldn't have done the same, but we all saw flashes from Boller, but I strongly feel it was Billick putting the offense in Boller's hands from a rookie that stunted his growth. I could be wrong, and it wouldn't be the first time.

As for Cam, I don't know who you guys take my posts, but in no way have I now or ever said that Cam isn't at fault somewhat for the failures of this offense.

Cam has to be better as a OC, but the notion that he's had this start studded cast of offensive weapons isn't accurate.

Although QB is the most important part of an offense, and Flacco has been better then anything we've previously had, there hasn't been much difference in our offensive personnel. Until this past season.

Cam has Flacco and Billick had the other 15 guys that couldn't get it done at QB. However, at what point to do fault Billick for not being able to develop a QB. And do you give Cam any credit for success Flacco has had in his first 3 seasons?

At what point do you just say, well the Ravens struck gold with Flacco and failed Billick in the draft and talent evaluation of QBs and that's why we didn't have success at that position?

[Ravensfan23]

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1307402331' post='693844']
not saying he didnt have talent, but lacking a QB and WRs are a pretty big deal, no?
But regardless, I'm just saying Cam has more to work with than Billick ever did, as far as personnel goes.
[/quote]

Who does Cam have to work with, not counting the rookies and 1st year players?

Did Billick's offense never have a Mason, Clayton, Heap?
Did Billick's offense never have a stud LT, and above average oline?
Did Billick's offense never have a 2,000 yard rusher?
Did Billick's offense never have a talented backup RB?

Most of what Cam had to work with once he got here was already here under Billick.

Now i'll admit that Boldin is the best WR we've ever had in a Ravens uniform and many feel that WR was misused last season.

Even though it was years and years of poor offensive play, I just can't bring myself to believe that offensively things have been great under Cam.

In 2010, yes the Ravens had some big names offensively, but often times the production didn't match the hype surrounding those names. Cam has to take his fair share for that, but do we as a fan base really think, those same balls wouldn't have been dropped, those same blocks wouldn't have been missed, and those same terrible penalties wouldn't have been commit under Billick's watch?

[Go Ravens27]

[quote name='Ravensfan23' timestamp='1307408406' post='693907']
Who does Cam have to work with, not counting the rookies and 1st year players?

Did Billick's offense never have a Mason, Clayton, Heap?
Did Billick's offense never have a stud LT, and above average oline?
Did Billick's offense never have a 2,000 yard rusher?
Did Billick's offense never have a talented backup RB?

Most of what Cam had to work with once he got here was already here under Billick.

Now i'll admit that Boldin is the best WR we've ever had in a Ravens uniform and many feel that WR was misused last season.

Even though it was years and years of poor offensive play, I just can't bring myself to believe that offensively things have been great under Cam.

In 2010, yes the Ravens had some big names offensively, but often times the production didn't match the hype surrounding those names. Cam has to take his fair share for that, but do we as a fan base really think, those same balls wouldn't have been dropped, those same blocks wouldn't have been missed, and those same terrible penalties wouldn't have been commit under Billick's watch?
[/quote]
Well Great point..... Let's face it the only thing here is winning. Granted it was a good run under both. and I agree Cam was holding back Flacco just as much as Billick was holding back Dilfer. He should have been a returning QB no question.
It's funny the only game Cam won as a head couch during that on season was against Blilicks Ravens. Bottom line players need show up and show outfor the team. That's what they get payed to do.

[Romo Ravens]

I'll take anyone but Cam to be honest, but I'll be real; he's apart of the staff, he is a Raven, albeit a coach, he still represents our team. Therefore I embrace his presence, but he really needs to fix some things heading into next season if he wants to stay entrenched at his position. I'm optimistic.

[Go Ravens27]

[quote name='Romo Ravens' timestamp='1307409510' post='693926']
I'll take anyone but Cam to be honest, but I'll be real; he's apart of the staff, he is a Raven, albeit a coach, he still represents our team. Therefore I embrace his presence, but he really needs to fix some things heading into next season if he wants to stay entrenched at his position. I'm optimistic.
[/quote]
I agree. He's part of the staff. No signs of him going anywhere but as a team on the offensive sence we need to make other teams fear what we can bring on that side of the ball. The puzzle is almost complete, but we as all teams has invested for years to get to that superbowl we must get younger and creative with the talent we have right now.

[flynismo]

[quote name='Ravensfan23' timestamp='1307407707' post='693902']<br />If you look at the Ravens of 2008 and the Ravens of 2006, what was different? Yes Flacco was a decent QB, but why was he a decent QB? Because his OC put him in high percentage situations to succeed. <br /><br />I'm not saying Billick wouldn't have done the same, but we all saw flashes from Boller, but I strongly feel it was Billick putting the offense in Boller's hands from a rookie that stunted his growth. I could be wrong, and it wouldn't be the first time. <br /><br />As for Cam, I don't know who you guys take my posts, but in no way have I now or ever said that Cam isn't at fault somewhat for the failures of this offense. <br /><br />Cam has to be better as a OC, but the notion that he's had this start studded cast of offensive weapons isn't accurate. <br /><br />Although QB is the most important part of an offense, and Flacco has been better then anything we've previously had, there hasn't been much difference in our offensive personnel. Until this past season. <br /><br />Cam has Flacco and Billick had the other 15 guys that couldn't get it done at QB. However, at what point to do fault Billick for not being able to develop a QB. And do you give Cam any credit for success Flacco has had in his first 3 seasons?<br /><br />At what point do you just say, well the Ravens struck gold with Flacco and failed Billick in the draft and talent evaluation of QBs and that's why we didn't have success at that position?<br />[/quote]


regarding the last paragraph, it is very simple to make that distinction. I find the reasoning that Billick was unable to develop a QB an unreasonable one. Why? Because other than Boller we made absolutely no serious attempt to draft a QB. We relied on nothing but whatever retreads we could scrounge up in free agency to play QB for us. So, Boller was Billick's only chance to develop a QB here. And Boller on his best day isn't Flacco on his worst, so Billick had the deck stacked from the get go in comparison to Cam starting with Flacco.

[flynismo]

[quote name='Ravensfan23' timestamp='1307408406' post='693907']<br />Who does Cam have to work with, not counting the rookies and 1st year players?<br /><br />Did Billick's offense never have a Mason, Clayton, Heap? <br />Did Billick's offense never have a stud LT, and above average oline?<br />Did Billick's offense never have a 2,000 yard rusher?<br />Did Billick's offense never have a talented backup RB?<br /><br />Most of what Cam had to work with once he got here was already here under Billick. <br /><br />Now i'll admit that Boldin is the best WR we've ever had in a Ravens uniform and many feel that WR was misused last season. <br /><br />Even though it was years and years of poor offensive play, I just can't bring myself to believe that offensively things have been great under Cam.<br /><br />In 2010, yes the Ravens had some big names offensively, but often times the production didn't match the hype surrounding those names. Cam has to take his fair share for that, but do we as a fan base really think, those same balls wouldn't have been dropped, those same blocks wouldn't have been missed, and those same terrible penalties wouldn't have been commit under Billick's watch?<br />[/quote]

i'd hardly consider Clayton an asset to either OC.

But any way, like I've said, having a top 10 QB changes everything. That's one huge advantage.
Having Boldin (in addition to Mason) is yet another huge advantage.
Just those two players alone gives us the passing game we never could have dreamed of having back when Boller was chucking dead ducks to Heap.

As evidence that Flacco changes everything, look no further than his rookie year and 2009, when Mason was still our #1 and Clayton #2 just like in the Billick days. Compare our passing attack once Flacco arrived to anything Boller ever did. The difference is night and day. We were blowing people out left and right (particularly 2009 when Flacco got a full season under his belt).

So even if everything else were equal, having a real QB makes all the difference in the world. Which is exactly what we were talking about earlier in regard to Billick; all he ever need was a QB.

[berad]

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1307404301' post='693871']
considering that Billick has more than twice the votes that Cam does, I wouldn't say 'no question' Cam is better. Most people clearly feel otherwise.
[/quote]

Let me rephrase... no question *in my mind

[Ravens Lover]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' timestamp='1307402716' post='693853']
Joe doesn't need "attitude". He isn't very demonstrative but that doesn't mean he lacks competitiveness.
[/quote]

Thats sort of what I was getting at, not that hes not competitive, hes extremely competitive,but that Billick could make him more demonstrative

[flynismo]

[quote name='Ravens Lover' timestamp='1307444824' post='694028']<br />Thats sort of what I was getting at, not that hes not competitive, hes extremely competitive,but that Billick could make him more demonstrative<br />[/quote]


why would that matter?

[PWNEDbyDEANO]

[quote name='Ravensfan23' timestamp='1307407143' post='693898']
That's cool. I think from a personality stand point, Billick is a guy who's more aggressive and pass happy.

Cam, while aggressive in his own way, is a guy who call plays based on his feel of the game. It's more of a chess match with Cam. If this is working well, then that opens up and vice versa. But if this isn't working then it seems like you're constantly starting over offensively and trying to find your groove.

Cam's a guy who would pound you with the running game and not really care if we passed more then 10 times

Billick's a guy who hated the fact that we were a run first team.

So if Billick was our OC, Flacco probably would have passed the ball over 600 times in his rookie season like Sam Bradford did.
[/quote]

Yeah, that seems quite an accurate summary of how Cam calls his games.

My one praise for Cam is that he's handled the transition from college football to NFL for young QBs. He has a good track record on that account, having tutored Brees, Rivers and now Flacco, all of whom have been solid or better.