Cam Cameron Or Brian Billick

[Ravensfan23]

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1307378673' post='693621']
I think the 'offensive guru' label should have came with an asterisk.
Billick needs a decent QB to be successful.
As hard as he tried, he just could not make something out of nothing when it came to his QB / WR here.
I think ravensdfan said it perfectly; he put too much faith / responsibility in the hands of mediocre players. And while that isn't a bad thing (I actually liked that about BB), when it was painfully obvious that Boller was never going to 'get it', he should have improvised.


[b]and that faith in his men is in stark contrast to the way it seems that Cam has shackled Flacco. I guarantee Flacco would be even further along than he already is, because Billick would have given Flacco all the opportunities to prove himself in clutch situations especially, but also at running an offense. Billick is more 'behind-the-scenes' and guide you along, where Cam is a friggin' tyrant (which isn't always a bad thing. Boller probably would have turned out better under Cam than he did Billick).
[/b]
Pure speculation on my part, but I honestly do believe that if Billick ran THIS offense with Flacco, Boldin, Rice, etc he would be far more successful than Cam. I just dont see him doing all the head scratching things that Cam does that blows up in his face (switching Oher and Gaither, changing to zone blocking, sending Stallworth on more end arounds than routes, etc etc etc).
In fact, I think Billick would have a field day with this group of players.
[/quote]

See that's the thing though. Who's to say that the reason Boller never developed into a quality QB is because Billick never reeled him in as a passer. Billick wanted Boller to be his next great QB, and from a rookie that kid was thrown to the wolves.

It's not just Cam, this entire organization wanted to hold Flacco back, to avoid another Boller situation. The Ravens have done a great job of not putting too much on Flacco too fast. Know I'll admit that about mid way through the season last year was time to let the chains loose and let Flacco really start to take hold of this offense. However I can't fault Cam or the Ravens for choosing to hang on a half season too long, rather then risk putting Flacco in a poor position a half season too soon.

Anybody that says this year has to be Flacco's year to take control, I agree. I'll probably share some of the same feelings about Cam as you do if he doesn't loosen up this year.

I think people fail to realize that one of the main reasons why people are so high on Flacco, is because of the positions Cam put him in over his first 2 season.

Right now you have fans in and outside of Baltimore saying it's Super Bowl or bust for Flacco in his 4th season. His 4th season!!!!!! What do you think would be the back lash to the Ravens putting everything on Flacco's shoulders last year and he failed.

Instead of people wanting to run Cam out of town they would be talking about running Flacco out of town even more so then they are doing now. Remember the week after the week 2 Bengals game?

[Bltravens]

[quote name='Jamal' timestamp='1307365919' post='693554']
I'm not one of those people who thinks Billick was an offensive guru here all of a sudden, but I am curious to see how he would have changed his system with the talent we have on offense now.

I think he would be more aggressive, and play more to win rather not to lose, so I'll take him over Cam.

For those of you who will respond by saying Billick also played not to lose, I'll point out what he had on offense.
[/quote]
This is my outlook too, Billick fell into the right job in Minnesota with the gross weapons he had at his disposal, but he also wasn't as inept as people think. I never though much of the right side of our Oline or Flynn at "C" for Billicks entire tenure, our Oline now when healthy is better. Billick was also always playing to his teams strengths which I give him credit for, you would not see Billick telling Mason and Boldin to be running streaks 50% of the time. The only guy Cam gets creative with is Rice as it stands right now.

[Ravensfan23]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' timestamp='1307380006' post='693636']
If Smith and Doss can make an impact as the season wears on like Sanders and Brown did for the Steelers last season, I'll be satisfied. I'm expecting Dickson and Pitta to do more as well, which will cut into the young WRs' production.
[/quote]

Yea not having that extra veteran WR will also help at least one or 2 of these guys get on the field.

I think without a doubt the Ravens want Smith heavily involved. It's just up to him to prove worthy.

Over the last couple years, the Ravens have added, Kelley Washington and Housh. No having 2 vets like that will allow Reed, Smith, Doss or Hardy to step up and get some extra passes thrown their way.

I think Ed Dickson really flashed his potential to be a playmaker and mismatch for defenses last year. Even though it was only 11 catches, I think the Ravens will look to really use him in that 2TE set this year.

Pitta and Flacco failed to connect on a couple big plays, so he flashed last year too. I think we'll see more of the TEs then the young WRs. Unless one or more of those young WRs really steps up.

[PWNEDbyDEANO]

[quote name='Ravensfan23' timestamp='1307376087' post='693597']
Are you talking about a Ravens' resume or overall? Because Billick had the one great year with the Vikings and the 4 previous years were pretty good.

Cam while with the Chargers lead that offense to a top 5 ranking 3 out of his 5 seasons there.

So they both had really good success before coming to the Ravens. I think from a talent stand point, Billick had the better players, but Cam had his fair share of great players as well.
[/quote]

With the Ravens. I think, purely because of their respective QB situations, I'd be inclined to say that Cam has had better players than Billick did, but that's not at all to say Billick had offenses devoid of good personnel.

True, they both had success on other teams before they came to the Ravens. But I think that Billick would have more success with the team that we have now. I just think that too much of Cam's system and mentality doesn't work with the players we have, meaning that the offense will struggle to be prolific. (I'd gladly eat crow about this if I'm wrong, however)

[PWNEDbyDEANO]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' timestamp='1307375369' post='693591']
His lone season with the Dolphins (a situation I don't think anyone could have succeeded in) what other significant failures has he had in your opinion?
[/quote]

This season. I accept that his offensive line was sub-standard, but he either couldn't or wouldn't work his plays around that. Running up the gut when Chester and Birk couldn't move anyone backwards or calling plays where it took time to develop, time which Flacco often didn't have and even when he did have it his receivers separation was negligible. That kind of thing shouldn't have been occurring all season long.

[Guest ArmyRaven52]

Ya know for as much as people complain about oh its not cams fault that our o line was injured, its not cams fault our running game sucked (something I still dont buy into, sorry), Its not cams fault that our receivers couldn't get separation. Right there I have to ask a question. Tell me how Q is the receiver who made it the fastest to 5,6, and 700 receptions and yet comes to Baltimore and mystically loses his ability to separate. It is kind of intriguing to me how people are going to defend cam on that point, but there will be somebody who inevitably says , " Uh...yeah well Q hates cam so he is trying to set him up." Or some other ridiculous statement about how it is Q's fault that he is running streaks.... give me a break. When our players screw up this bad people are up in arms talking about his huge flaws, or that we should not have drafted him that high, or we could get a draft pick for him while he is still high or what have you. The point is is that Frank "Pass Interference" Walker got crucified on these message boards, and yet Cam gets a free pass because we dont have 53 perfect players who can execute perfectly all the time and make every play work. Yeah lets try an be realistic here.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='PWNEDbyDEANO' timestamp='1307384193' post='693679']
This season. I accept that his offensive line was sub-standard, but he either couldn't or wouldn't work his plays around that. Running up the gut when Chester and Birk couldn't move anyone backwards or calling plays where it took time to develop, time which Flacco often didn't have and even when he did have it his receivers separation was negligible. That kind of thing shouldn't have been occurring all season long.
[/quote]

When people bring up the dives with Rice, I ask where else really was there to run? Good gains outside of the tackles aren't common, especially not when only one side of the line has two reliable blocks. Looking around the league, all the teams that had run run blocking issues (St.Louis, Pittsburgh and Cincy to name a few) routinely pounded their RBs up the gut and hoped for positive yardage. I remember Billick calling similar plays with Jamal back in '05 and '06.

Cam tried shuffling players late in the year but that only worked once.

I saw time-consuming routes at times but I don't believe they were nearly as common as people imply.

[flynismo]

,[quote name='ArmyRaven52' timestamp='1307385459' post='693691']<br />Ya know for as much as people complain about oh its not cams fault that our o line was injured, its not cams fault our running game sucked (something I still dont buy into, sorry), Its not cams fault that our receivers couldn't get separation.  Right there I have to ask a question.  Tell me how Q is the receiver who made it the fastest to 5,6, and 700 receptions and yet comes to Baltimore and mystically loses his ability to separate.  It is kind of intriguing to me how people are going to defend cam on that point, but there will be somebody who inevitably says , &quot; Uh...yeah well Q hates cam so he is trying to set him up.&quot; Or some other ridiculous statement about how it is Q's fault that he is running streaks.... give me a break.  When our players screw up this bad people are up in arms talking about his huge flaws, or that we should not have drafted him that high, or we could get a draft pick for him while he is still high or what have you.  The point is is that Frank &quot;Pass Interference&quot; Walker got crucified on these message boards, and yet Cam gets a free pass because we dont have 53 perfect players who can execute perfectly all the time and make every play work.  Yeah lets try an be realistic here.<br />[/quote]

Q is a good example of why Cam is a problem, I can agree with that.
But not necessarily for the reasons you may think, because you have to remember in AZ he played with a HOF QB and Fitzgerald, so a guy as talented as Q was bound to do serious damage.

I hate to admit it, because Q is my favorite WR to ever play other than Moss, but Q also just had an off year; whether it was due to the fact he was doubled up on more than ever, adjusting to a new team, or what ever it may have been, he just did not produce to his normal standards the latter half of the year (and have we EVER seen Q bounce a TD pass off his chest?? This is the same guy who broke his face on a helmet to helmet hit in AZ while pulling in a TD -- Warner said that play almost led to his retirement).,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='ArmyRaven52' timestamp='1307385459' post='693691']
Ya know for as much as people complain about oh its not cams fault that our o line was injured, its not cams fault our running game sucked (something I still dont buy into, sorry), Its not cams fault that our receivers couldn't get separation. Right there I have to ask a question. Tell me how Q is the receiver who made it the fastest to 5,6, and 700 receptions and yet comes to Baltimore and mystically loses his ability to separate. It is kind of intriguing to me how people are going to defend cam on that point, but there will be somebody who inevitably says , " Uh...yeah well Q hates cam so he is trying to set him up." Or some other ridiculous statement about how it is Q's fault that he is running streaks.... give me a break. When our players screw up this bad people are up in arms talking about his huge flaws, or that we should not have drafted him that high, or we could get a draft pick for him while he is still high or what have you. The point is is that Frank "Pass Interference" Walker got crucified on these message boards, and yet Cam gets a free pass because we dont have 53 perfect players who can execute perfectly all the time and make every play work. Yeah lets try an be realistic here.
[/quote]

No one has denied Cam misused and underutilized some players, Q being the most egregious example. But saying Q struggled to separate at times last season doesn't equate to an excuse for Cam either. Separation was never what his game was built on in Arizona anyway and it was Cam's fault for either not recognizing that or caring to deploy Boldin the same way here last season. However, when I watched Q last season, I saw a player that wasn't as explosive as he was as a Cardinal(which is to be expected considering his age and injuries).

Also, just to clarify, Cam hasn't got a "free pass" at all.

[Guest ArmyRaven52]

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1307386942' post='693705']
,

Q is a good example of why Cam is a problem, I can agree with that.
But not necessarily for the reasons you may think, because you have to remember in AZ he played with a HOF QB and Fitzgerald, so a guy as talented as Q was bound to do serious damage.

I hate to admit it, because Q is my favorite WR to ever play other than Moss, but Q also just had an off year; whether it was due to the fact he was doubled up on more than ever, adjusting to a new team, or what ever it may have been, he just did not produce to his normal standards the latter half of the year (and have we EVER seen Q bounce a TD pass off his chest?? This is the same guy who broke his face on a helmet to helmet hit in AZ while pulling in a TD -- Warner said that play almost led to his retirement).,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
[/quote]

Ok I understand what your saying, he did have an off year, we definitely have no Fitz, and Warner was a great QB (still laughing at AZ and the Leinart experiment, i am glad those days are behind us.) The way I look at it though is that in all honesty we probably have the surest handed corps of the receivers, Housh, Boldin, and Mase are all imo top 10 hands in the league. So if Boldin was bound to do damage and he was getting the double teams why weren't the rest of the team going off. When he was doubled slants, curls, hitch's and other possession routes should have been there all day for Mase, housh, and I know a 4 wr set before the 4th Qtr is impossible apparently, but throw Reed in there, and Cam's ineptitude still baffles me and peoples ardent loyalty to a guy who has done nothing in two years and expect our players to be .perfect.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='ArmyRaven52' timestamp='1307387718' post='693711']
Ok I understand what your saying, he did have an off year, we definitely have no Fitz, and Warner was a great QB (still laughing at AZ and the Leinart experiment, i am glad those days are behind us.) The way I look at it though is that in all honesty we probably have the surest handed corps of the receivers, Housh, Boldin, and Mase are all imo top 10 hands in the league. So if Boldin was bound to do damage and he was getting the double teams why weren't the rest of the team going off. When he was doubled slants, curls, hitch's and other possession routes should have been there all day for Mase, housh, and I know a 4 wr set before the 4th Qtr is impossible apparently, but throw Reed in there, and Cam's ineptitude still baffles me and [b]peoples ardent loyalty to a guy who has done nothing in two years and expect our players to be .perfect.[/b]
[/quote]

He's done "nothing" in two years? News to me...

I don't know anyone who expects the players to be perfect.

[Guest ArmyRaven52]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' timestamp='1307387295' post='693707']
No one has denied Cam misused and underutilized some players, Q being the most egregious example. But saying Q struggled to separate at times last season doesn't equate to an excuse for Cam either. Separation was never what his game was built on in Arizona anyway and it was Cam's fault for either not recognizing that or caring to deploy Boldin the same way here last season. However, when I watched Q last season, I saw a player that wasn't as explosive as he was as a Cardinal(which is to be expected considering his age and injuries).

Also, just to clarify, Cam hasn't got a "free pass" at all.
[/quote]

I think the lack of explosion is due to the fact he was running routes that weren't necessarily foreign but definitely not his forte. I think when he caught that flea flicker from Joe in Buffalo can attest to his explosiveness and that was not even on a route he runs. I must have caught different games, but I thought he still had good explosion. And I don't know where a lot of this pro cam sentiment is coming from but lately a lot of people are trying to blame our players (this being the most talent we have ever had on the O side of the ball.) I think people have forgotten that part and now dont blame the guy calling the plays, it is Flacco needs to take the next step (greatest QB in Ravens history, not sure how much more can be expected from him at this point) Or rice wasnt very efficient (most talented back we have ever had imo), or our OL, which in my opinion Oher, grubbs, and Yanda should have been or should be pro-bowlers this year. Or the most talented and deep crop of receivers we have ever had. We have an extremely talented O so when people try to push it off on the players I look at the weakest link in our final offensive product, and that without any doubt in my mind is Cam.

[JEEPercreepermd]

One thing that can't be denied is that the Ravens.offense as a whole has been more productive and consistant over the last 3 years than it's ever been. So i'll have to go with cameron. Sure I think he needs to start playing to the strengths of Flacco and the personell around him, but going back and watching Billick's offense even with #9 at qb is mind numbing.
Back in 08, Cameron did a wonderful job with what he had. A rookie qb, big nasty o-line, billick era wr's, an un-motivated mcgahee, rice was injured,.and a pair.of huge fb's. He used the peices he had to keep pressure.off of Flacco while mixing in.different wrinkles.and.gimmicks.to manufacture points.
cam has gotten away from that though and has been running the same.offense although the strengths of the personell are vastly different
In all reality I think that cam is on the hot.seat.to get more out of the offense, and may only still be around because of the lockout.

[Guest ArmyRaven52]

[quote name='Ravensfan23' timestamp='1307379231' post='693629']
You do realize that Randy Moss was a first round draft pick. Guys like Moss will generally play early.

Rookie WRs under Billick saw no more playing time then Justin Harper, Marcus Smith and David Reed saw with Cam.

Travis Taylor(1st round 2000)
9 games 8 start 28 catches

Brandon Stokley(4th round 1999)
7 games his first 2 seasons combined.

Todd Heap(1st round 2001)
12 games 6 starts 16 catches.

Terry Jones(5th round 2002)
14 games 6 starts 11 cathces

Ron Johnson(4th 2002)
16 games 4 starts 10 catches

Javin Hunter(6th round 2002)
12 games 3 starts 5 catches.

Davard Darling(3rd round 2004)
3games 0 starts 3 catches

Clarence Moore(6th round 2004)
16games 6 starts 24 catches

Mark Clayton(1st round 2005)
14 games 10 starts 44 catches

Demetrius Williams(4th round 2006)
16 games 1 start 22 catches

Quinn Sypniewski(5th round 2006)
16 games 3 starts 2 catches

Yamon Figurs(3rd round 2007)
14 games 0 starts 1 catch

So exactly why would the rookies we just drafted have a better chance of playing more consistently under Billick?

Rookie WRs just don't get much playing time, you can look around the NFL. It's not just the Ravens and Cam or Harbs not playing rookie WRs. WR is one of the toughest position for a rookie to come in and produce. Unless you are a 1st round pick, more often then not you're not gonna see much playing time, unless there is a injury, or you force you're way on the field.
[/quote]
Fist off 1st round wr's tend to bust more often than not,out of the top 5 receivers last year 2 were 1st rounders. all those people you named have a start or at least played. how many snaps at receiver has, david reed, marcus smith, justin harper, or eron riley seen. There may have been one in between all of them. I would say that rookie Wr's got more playing time under Billick.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='ArmyRaven52' timestamp='1307388511' post='693715']
I think the lack of explosion is due to the fact he was running routes that weren't necessarily foreign but definitely not his forte. I think when he caught that flea flicker from Joe in Buffalo can attest to his explosiveness and that was not even on a route he runs. I must have caught different games, but I thought he still had good explosion. And I don't know where a lot of this pro cam sentiment is coming from but lately a lot of people are trying to blame our players (this being the most talent we have ever had on the O side of the ball.) I think people have forgotten that part and now dont blame the guy calling the plays, it is Flacco needs to take the next step (greatest QB in Ravens history, not sure how much more can be expected from him at this point) Or rice wasnt very efficient (most talented back we have ever had imo), or our OL, which in my opinion Oher, grubbs, and Yanda should have been or should be pro-bowlers this year. Or the most talented and deep crop of receivers we have ever had. We have an extremely talented O so when people try to push it off on the players I look at the weakest link in our final offensive product, and that without any doubt in my mind is Cam.
[/quote]

No. When I watched him, he didn't look as explosive as he was in '07 or even '08.

On the flea-flicker, he got behind players that weren't even running with him, so I don't see how that's a good example.

There were flashes of explosiveness like a screen against Atlanta and a 1st down he muscled up for against Houston but I just didn't see the old Boldin often.

Calling to attention where the players failed doesn't mean people have absolved Cam of responsibility or are "pro-Cam". Feel free to subscribe to an "either/or" mentality regarding the offense but I won't.

Just because last year's offense was the most talented in team history doesn't mean their combined struggles along with Cam's issues didn't lead to the inefficient, inconsistent unit we saw.

[izvoodoo]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' timestamp='1307389722' post='693730']
No. When I watched him, he didn't look as explosive as he was in '07 or even '08.

On the flea-flicker, he got behind players that weren't even running with him, so I don't see how that's a good example.

There were flashes of explosiveness like a screen against Atlanta and a 1st down he muscled up for against Houston but I just didn't see the old Boldin often.

Calling to attention where the players failed doesn't mean people have absolved Cam of responsibility or are "pro-Cam". Feel free to subscribe to an "either/or" mentality regarding the offense but I won't.

Just because last year's offense was the most talented in team history doesn't mean their combined struggles along with Cam's issues didn't lead to the inefficient, inconsistent unit we saw.
[/quote]

Q never really ran away from people, he's just crafty and he just plain muscles folk.

[Guest ArmyRaven52]

I hope cam turns this around because then I will be happy to chew on shoe leather from putting my foot in my mouth. But if he doesnt and leaves I will not lose any sleep. I am actually looking forward to the ravens trying to find a competent OC, something I am not sure we have ever had.

[Ravenslifer]

[quote name='ArmyRaven52' timestamp='1307389656' post='693728']
Fist off 1st round wr's tend to bust more often than not,out of the top 5 receivers last year 2 were 1st rounders. all those people you named have a start or at least played. how many snaps at receiver has, david reed, marcus smith, justin harper, or eron riley seen. There may have been one in between all of them. I would say that rookie Wr's got more playing time under Billick.
[/quote]

We didn't play these guys because the front office brought in Boldin, Housh, and Stallworth. None of the young guys deserved a chance over our four vets. We don't play a lot of four and five WR sets, so we mainly got Boldin and Mason on the field, with Housh coming in occassionally. Stallworth missed half the season, which really cut into his playing time, and David Reed was mainly used on special teams last year (where he did a good job). I anticipate that, since Housh and Stalls are not coming back, guys like Reed, Torrey Smith, and Tandon Doss will see much more playing time if training camp starts on time, ad I hae a feeling we'll see James Hardy in a few special packages and red zone situations if he can stay healthy. Marcus Smith plays good ST, but in my opinion, neither he, Riley, or Harper have much of a future in this league, whether they play for the Ravens or not.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='ArmyRaven52' timestamp='1307389656' post='693728']
Fist off 1st round wr's tend to bust more often than not,out of the top 5 receivers last year 2 were 1st rounders. all those people you named have a start or at least played. how many snaps at receiver has, david reed, marcus smith, justin harper, or eron riley seen. There may have been one in between all of them. I would say that rookie Wr's got more playing time under Billick.
[/quote]

How much playing time could Cam really give to Reed this past season with all the the veteran WRs ahead of him? The same goes for Marcus Smith. I saw both on offense mid-season right before Stallworth returned.

Have you watched Harper play in pre-season the past few seasons? What has he done to even make the roster, let alone get many snaps? He was active and even got some offensive snaps in '09 when Clayton and Washington were hurt.

Riley is practice squad fodder. The Panthers signed and cut him from their practice squad last year. Does that sound like a guy who deserved snaps?

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='izvoodoo' timestamp='1307390057' post='693731']
Q never really ran away from people, he's just crafty and he just plain muscles folk.
[/quote]

I never said he ran away from people. A player may not have deep speed but he can still be explosive coming off the line, over short distances or how they go through contact.

[izvoodoo]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' timestamp='1307390634' post='693740']
I never said he ran away from people. A player may not have deep speed but he can still be explosive coming off the line, over short distances or how they go through contact.
[/quote]

Ok, yeah we agree. I've always loved Q, and I'm still proud he's on our team.

[Ravensfan23]

[quote name='PWNEDbyDEANO' timestamp='1307383844' post='693673']
With the Ravens. I think, purely because of their respective QB situations, I'd be inclined to say that Cam has had better players than Billick did, but that's not at all to say Billick had offenses devoid of good personnel.

True, they both had success on other teams before they came to the Ravens. But I think that Billick would have more success with the team that we have now. I just think that too much of Cam's system and mentality doesn't work with the players we have, meaning that the offense will struggle to be prolific. (I'd gladly eat crow about this if I'm wrong, however)
[/quote]

Other then last season with the Name(not production) where is all of this great offensive personnel that people assume Cam has.

Does anyone remember the reports coming out of camp back in 2008 about how terrible our Oline would be.

Mason has been the only consistent WR we had in Cam's first 2 seasons. Heap was much better in the Billick era, mainly because he was healthy. Although Ray Rice has great success in both the running and passing game, can we hands down say he's better then Jamal Lewis.

Can we hands down say LeRon McClain is better the Ovie?

Flacco is probably the only position that we could say hands down has been better then anything we saw in the Billick era.

In his first 2 seasons with the Ravens, Cam got about as much out of the talent we had as anyone could have.

Did Cam get the most out of his players last season? No way, but those players also failed alot. Look at all the dropped passes, missed blocking assignments, poor routes. There were times that this offense didn't even look like they practiced together before. Is a lot of that on Cam as well, absolutely. I would have loved to seen Cam bench guys like Mason and Housh just to send a message.

To say Billick would have been better with the talent we have now is laughable to me, because in reality, until this year, the talent Cam had was on par to the talent Billick had.

[Ravensfan23]

[quote name='ArmyRaven52' timestamp='1307389656' post='693728']
[b]Fist off 1st round wr's tend to bust more often than not,out of the top 5 receivers last year 2 were 1st rounders.[/b] all those people you named have a start or at least played. how many snaps at receiver has, david reed, marcus smith, justin harper, or eron riley seen. There may have been one in between all of them. I would say that rookie Wr's got more playing time under Billick.
[/quote]

That makes my point even stronger. It's hard for rookie WRs to come into a team and make an impact.

The point I'm making has nothing to do with busting. You made the comment that our rookies would have a better chance of playing more consistently if we had Billick, just ask Randy Moss.

First and second round picks are more likely to see the field early, then a 7th round pick is.

Under Billick who did we have at WR that would prevent us from using young guys? Marcus Robinson? Kevin Johnson? Patrick Johnson? Imo there were much more opportunities for younger guys to play under Billick then now, because of the roster.

Ed Dickson as a rookie has just as much production and time as Heap as a rookie.

Heap: 12games 6starts 16catches 206yds 1TD
Dickson: 15games 3starts 11catches 152yds 1TD

Justin Harper was a 7th round pick that dropped too many passes in practice and preseason. How much confidence can you really have in him to play?

Marcus Smith was drafted in 08, the Ravens had Mason, Clayton, Heap, Williams and Wilcox as pass catches they had more faith in then Smith. You have a relatively young offense, chances are a young 4th round pick isn't gonna see a lot of offensive time.

If reports are accurate, David Reed struggled to pick up the offense as well as hold onto the ball in training camp last season. Once the season started, the Ravens went out and picked up Housh. David Reed got buried on the depth chart.

Elron Riley didn't even make the final roster so we won't go there.

Unlike under Billick the 3 WRs that have been drafted while Cam has been here, have been trapped behind veterans. If you don't show and prove that you deserve a shot early, your chances of playing are slim.

Now with only Mason and Boldin as vet WRs this year, if guys like Reed, Hardy, Smith, Doss or whichever young guys make up the corp don't see much time, then I can see that being a problem.

However I stand by my feeling that there is nothing that suggest that the rookies would see much more playing time under Billick.

I'll ask you this, of all the rookie WRs that got so much more playing time in Billick's offense. Which 3 would you like to replace Smith, Harper, and Reed with on our current roster. Or any roster we've had with Cam as OC.

If Billick was our OC right now, how much time do you think Smith, Harper, and Reed would have gotten in their rookie season? Playing behind, Boldin, Mason, Clayton, Housh, Washington and Heap.

[jimmysmith3]

Billick is really the only way to go.

[flynismo]

[quote name='Ravensfan23' timestamp='1307391186' post='693745']<br />Other then last season with the Name(not production) where is all of this great offensive personnel that people assume Cam has. <br /><br />Does anyone remember the reports coming out of camp back in 2008 about how terrible our Oline would be. <br /><br />Mason has been the only consistent WR we had in Cam's first 2 seasons. Heap was much better in the Billick era, mainly because he was healthy. Although Ray Rice has great success in both the running and passing game, can we hands down say he's better then Jamal Lewis. <br /><br />Can we hands down say LeRon McClain is better the Ovie? <br /><br />Flacco is probably the only position that we could say hands down has been better then anything we saw in the Billick era. <br /><br />In his first 2 seasons with the Ravens, Cam got about as much out of the talent we had as anyone could have. <br /><br />Did Cam get the most out of his players last season? No way, but those players also failed alot. Look at all the dropped passes, missed blocking assignments, poor routes. There were times that this offense didn't even look like they practiced together before. Is a lot of that on Cam as well, absolutely. I would have loved to seen Cam bench guys like Mason and Housh just to send a message.<br /><br />To say Billick would have been better with the talent we have now is laughable to me, because in reality, until this year, the talent Cam had was on par to the talent Billick had.<br />[/quote]

in 2008, I'd agree that the talent level was on par with the usual Billick roster. Flacco as a rookie was still better than Boller ever was, but the OL wasnt as good and the RB / WR were about even.

In 2009, our OL was probably the best in franchise history, Flacco in his second season put up the best year any QB any Raven ever had other than Vinny, and Rice emerged as arguably the best RB in the game. Our WR were still about the same. So Cam definitely had a better offense to work with in 09.

And of course last season, we were just loaded with talent all over the board, other than a couple guys on the OL.

So as far as I can tell, in Cam's first year, he had roughly the same talent on the roster as Billick did, and his last two years he had much more to work with than Billick.

But I really cant emphasize enough how important having Flacco has been to this offense.
I had this conversation before -- I often wondered how many SB we would have won if Flacco were here from 2001 - 2005. A QB like him will make or break any offense; Cam has benefitted from that, Billick never got that chance during his time here.

[Ravensfan23]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' timestamp='1307389722' post='693730']
[b]No. When I watched him, he didn't look as explosive as he was in '07 or even '08.[/b]

On the flea-flicker, he got behind players that weren't even running with him, so I don't see how that's a good example.

There were flashes of explosiveness like a screen against Atlanta and a 1st down he muscled up for against Houston but I just didn't see the old Boldin often.

Calling to attention where the players failed doesn't mean people have absolved Cam of responsibility or are "pro-Cam". Feel free to subscribe to an "either/or" mentality regarding the offense but I won't.

Just because last year's offense was the most talented in team history doesn't mean their combined struggles along with Cam's issues didn't lead to the inefficient, inconsistent unit we saw.
[/quote]

I think in week 2 the [color="#4B0082"][url="http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2010091912/2010/REG2/ravens@bengals/watch#watch"]slant he ran against Pac Man that resulted in a INT[/url][/color] was when i first noticed the lack of explosion from Boldin. I don't know what caused it. It could be the fact that Q is 30 and all that physical play is catching up to him, who knows.

With that said, Boldin's talent still shines bright. He can still get the job done, and I think 2011 will be a huge year for him. \

I think Cam could have used his weapons better as well, but people have to understand that our offense is nothing like the Cardinals offense. Q was allowed to abuse defense underneath in Arizona so much because he has a guy named Fitz playing on the other side of the field. He had a guy named Warner who had a deadly quick release. So things were a lot more open for him there, then here.

I know it was his college years and his rookie year, but Cam used Q the same way he was used at FSU and in his rookie season. Boldin didn't start having the underneath success until the next year when Fitz joined the team.

Does anyone remember [color="#4B0082"][url="http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2007092300/2007/REG3/cardinals@ravens/watch#watch"]this game[/url][/color]

It wasn't underneath routes that allowed Boldin to torch our defense. He was him getting into the seams, double moves, attacking our safeties, and him just using his physical style to beat us.

Those are the same things, the Ravens try to get from him last season, the only difference is, with the Ravens Boldin was every defense's top priority. Those that choose to cover Q with single cover paid for it and because the Ravens didn't have a lot of team speed, those that doubled Q pretty much shut down our offense.

If some of these young guy can open up the offense this year, I think Q will have a huge year.

[PWNEDbyDEANO]

[quote name='Ravensfan23' timestamp='1307391186' post='693745']
Other then last season with the Name(not production) where is all of this great offensive personnel that people assume Cam has.

Does anyone remember the reports coming out of camp back in 2008 about how terrible our Oline would be.

Mason has been the only consistent WR we had in Cam's first 2 seasons. Heap was much better in the Billick era, mainly because he was healthy. Although Ray Rice has great success in both the running and passing game, can we hands down say he's better then Jamal Lewis.

Can we hands down say LeRon McClain is better the Ovie?

Flacco is probably the only position that we could say hands down has been better then anything we saw in the Billick era.

In his first 2 seasons with the Ravens, Cam got about as much out of the talent we had as anyone could have.

Did Cam get the most out of his players last season? No way, but those players also failed alot. Look at all the dropped passes, missed blocking assignments, poor routes. There were times that this offense didn't even look like they practiced together before. Is a lot of that on Cam as well, absolutely. I would have loved to seen Cam bench guys like Mason and Housh just to send a message.

To say Billick would have been better with the talent we have now is laughable to me, because in reality, until this year, the talent Cam had was on par to the talent Billick had.
[/quote]

I think your point about the execution on the players part is key. This coupled with the constraints already on the offense & Cam due to the OL being poor for the most part is why I feel we failed. To clear this up: I don't think Billick would have done much, if any better in the situation last year, nor do I still feel that Cam should have been fired because of what happened. I would just be intrigued as to how far he could take this offense. I feel it could well be further than Cam could.

[PWNEDbyDEANO]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' timestamp='1307386319' post='693702']
When people bring up the dives with Rice, I ask where else really was there to run? Good gains outside of the tackles aren't common, especially not when only one side of the line has two reliable blocks. Looking around the league, all the teams that had run run blocking issues (St.Louis, Pittsburgh and Cincy to name a few) routinely pounded their RBs up the gut and hoped for positive yardage. I remember Billick calling similar plays with Jamal back in '05 and '06.

Cam tried shuffling players late in the year but that only worked once.

I saw time-consuming routes at times but I don't believe they were nearly as common as people imply.
[/quote]

Execution was definitely as much a problem as the playcalling. Neither party was innocent, but I guess I just felt I didn't see enough being done to change things. Obviously, just because I didn't see it, it doesn't mean that there wasn't any attempt to correct it.

Either way, what's done is done now. I sincerely hope that Gaither is re-signed so we avoid another year of an agonizingly inefficient offense.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='Ravensfan23' timestamp='1307394596' post='693780']
I think in week 2 the [color="#4B0082"][url="http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2010091912/2010/REG2/ravens@bengals/watch#watch"]slant he ran against Pac Man that resulted in a INT[/url][/color] was when i first noticed the lack of explosion from Boldin. I don't know what caused it. It could be the fact that Q is 30 and all that physical play is catching up to him, who knows.

With that said, Boldin's talent still shines bright. He can still get the job done, and I think 2011 will be a huge year for him. \

I think Cam could have used his weapons better as well, but people have to understand that our offense is nothing like the Cardinals offense. Q was allowed to abuse defense underneath in Arizona so much because he has a guy named Fitz playing on the other side of the field. He had a guy named Warner who had a deadly quick release. So things were a lot more open for him there, then here.

I know it was his college years and his rookie year, but Cam used Q the same way he was used at FSU and in his rookie season. Boldin didn't start having the underneath success until the next year when Fitz joined the team.

Does anyone remember [color="#4B0082"][url="http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2007092300/2007/REG3/cardinals@ravens/watch#watch"]this game[/url][/color]

It wasn't underneath routes that allowed Boldin to torch our defense. He was him getting into the seams, double moves, attacking our safeties, and him just using his physical style to beat us.

Those are the same things, the Ravens try to get from him last season, the only difference is, with the Ravens Boldin was every defense's top priority. Those that choose to cover Q with single cover paid for it and because the Ravens didn't have a lot of team speed, those that doubled Q pretty much shut down our offense.

If some of these young guy can open up the offense this year, I think Q will have a huge year.
[/quote]

Good points.

I agree that he should bounce back next season. Because of the numerous weapons the team has, he may not have a huge season but I'll be disappointed if he doesn't crack 1000 yards and score a few more TDs than he did last season.

[Shammy]

i think people forget brian billick had cris carter and a young randy moss which was half the reason they were successful and that vikings defense is underrated as well