Cam Cameron Or Brian Billick

[flynismo]

Title says it all ... Discuss!

[Alexir]

Billick never had a QB. I think he would do wonders with Flacco.

[flynismo]

[quote name='Alexir' timestamp='1307327687' post='693475']
Billick never had a QB. I think he would do wonders with Flacco.
[/quote]

My thoughts exactly..my vote went to Billick

[EdReedFTW]

It seems a lot of people have rose tinted glasses.

[Ravensfan23]

At what point do you blame the Offensive guru for not being able to develop at QB in 8 years?

Around the time Billick got fired I don't remember many people saying just get him a good QB and things will be fine.

I think Billick's offense would have been better with a good QB, but the same can be said for any offense.

[Ed_Reed20]

I'd take Brian. He frustratingly abandoned the run at times but he was no less imaginative a play-caller than Cam and I don't remember him making as many perplexing calls.

[Shammy]

Brian

[Thepurplehaze]

Cam.
I know the Boller/Redman era was partly to blame, but Billick's offensive
scheme was an absolute disaster...

[flynismo]

[quote name='Ravensfan23' timestamp='1307330374' post='693488']<br />At what point do you blame the Offensive guru for not being able to develop at QB in 8 years? <br /><br />Around the time Billick got fired I don't remember many people saying just get him a good QB and things will be fine.[/quote]

i get what you're saying, and I want to agree with it, but I just cant.
I mean, look at what he had to work with.
The only year that he ever had a decent QB (McNair in 2006), we put up the best record in franchise history.

And just fyi, I knew many Ravens fans that felt the only thing holding us back was a good QB.

[flynismo]

[quote name='Thepurplehaze' timestamp='1307332498' post='693499']<br />Cam.<br />I know the Boller/Redman era was partly to blame, but Billick's offensive<br />scheme was an absolute disaster...<br />[/quote]

I dont agree with that; Billick really knew how to get the most out of his OL and RB.
He certainly wasn't as creative as Cam (see, I do say nice things about Cam!), but how creative can you be when Boller/Wright/Redman are your QBs?

[ravensdfan]

While one can't say for certain, my issue with Brian was his unfaltering confidence in the mediocre QBs that came and went while he was here. He would constantly try to abandon the run game for the passing game. Alas, the talent at that QB position could not hold up its end. I think he'd be successful with Flacco. Or I'm just that tired of seeing Cam's 10 plays over and over and over.

[flynismo]

[quote name='ravensdfan' timestamp='1307334456' post='693510']<br />While one can't say for certain, my issue with Brian was his unfaltering confidence in the mediocre QBs that came and went while he was here. He would constantly try to abandon the run game for the passing game. Alas, the talent at that QB position could not hold up its end. I think he'd be successful with Flacco. Or I'm just that tired of seeing Cam's 10 plays over and over and over.<br />[/quote]

All I can say is this ... Billick was the OC calling the shots in one of the greatest offenses in NFL history.
Of course it doesn't hurt when Cunningham, Moss and Carter are on the team, but nevertheless, 1998 put Billick on the map and established his rep.

[K-Dog]

both a good and difficult question.

the X factor would be would it be Billick with this current line up or a previous and like wise with Cam, with his current line up or Billicks era.

I really think more a team can make a coach / coordinator look good or bad as opposed to a coach or a coordinator making a team look good or bad.

Ultimately it comes down to would you rather have a good team or good coaching. In that I say team.

Either way I voted Cam. I liked what I saw early on here in Baltimore. Wish I could see that again some time....

[Jamal]

I'm not one of those people who thinks Billick was an offensive guru here all of a sudden, but I am curious to see how he would have changed his system with the talent we have on offense now.

I think he would be more aggressive, and play more to win rather not to lose, so I'll take him over Cam.

For those of you who will respond by saying Billick also played not to lose, I'll point out what he had on offense.

[FerrariFan87]

Imagine the OC Billick from the Vikings coming here now in that capacity... this offense would be explosive.

[Mahatma_Sloth]

been watching since 96. gotta say this o is waaaaaayyyyyy easier to watch than billicks ever was. cam was involved in the drafting of flacco just as billick was in boller/redmen (billick more so maybe) and they basically had the same scouting cast around them. jamal was awesome to watch but whenever he didnt take the rock in the billick era i would cringe. now i am just as happy either way. but who knows what billick would do with this group of guys as the OC he did wonders in Min. hey maybe if cam sucks this year we could bring billick back and see

[Ravensfan23]

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1307333774' post='693506']
i get what you're saying, and I want to agree with it, but I just cant.
I mean, look at what he had to work with.
The only year that he ever had a decent QB (McNair in 2006), we put up the best record in franchise history.

And just fyi, I knew many Ravens fans that felt the only thing holding us back was a good QB.
[/quote]

Oh yea, it was clear that having a QB that wasn't worthy was holding us back, however, I knew many fans who were upset with the news that Billick's job was safe, then many fans were very happy when Billick was fired. I didn't hear a lot of people screaming for the Ravens to keep Billick and draft Matt Ryan in the first round. Now for people to say, well Billick never had a QB, well he had 8-9 seasons to get a serviceable QB.

The Ravens never needed a great QB, we had great defense, a dominate running game, and really good special teams. We just needed a QB who was above average, but the offensive guru, couldn't get at least 1 our of the 14 QBs we had to be above average.

Yea in 06' we had Mac 9 and we had one of the greatest seasons in franchise history, but we also had one of the best defenses in franchise history that year as well. I could make the case that Cam could have went 14-2 with a Rookie QB, if it wasn't for a terrible roughing the passer call vs Ten, and the defense giving up two 90+ game winning drives vs Pit. I could say Cam offense helped lead us to the AFC Champion game with a rookie QB. But none of that really mattes.

Because, again it all goes back to players making the coach. If Billick brought all the talent he had with the Vikings over to Baltimore, our offense wouldn't have been so bad.

Look at Rex Ryan as a DC, he's great. However when we had to rely on guys like Derrick Martin, Ronnie Prude, and David Pittman to start in the secondary our defense looked horrible. Didn't make Rex any less of a coach.

This Billick vs Cam thing is like the back up QB being the most popular guy in town. When you have something or someone that isn't working, the other guy always looks better.

Go back to 2007,2005,2002 or even 2000 and pose this same exact question. I'm willing to bet a great amount of money that most of us on this board would select Cam Cameron hands down.

Hell I know many Ravens fans, that thought it didn't matter who our new head coach was, Rex, Harbs, Jason, as long as we added Cam Cameron as OC, then things would be good.

Now we have Cam and 1 season out of his 3 here hasn't been good and now he's one of the worse OC in the NFL. It's laughable to me.

[PWNEDbyDEANO]

I'd take Billick because he has a good year on his resume and he would have me excited and intrigued about the potential of our offense.

Cam's resume is not so impressive, I'd almost go as far to say he has more significant failures than successes and I don't think he could take our offense to a level it could be capable of, or that Billick [i]might[/i] have been able to.

[Ravensfan23]

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1307334804' post='693514']
All I can say is this ... Billick was the OC calling the shots in one of the greatest offenses in NFL history.
Of course it doesn't hurt when Cunningham, Moss and Carter are on the team, but nevertheless, 1998 put Billick on the map and established his rep.
[/quote]

And we got suckered into believing that rep. Hell even Billick was a prisoner of his rep. I strongly believe that if Billick came to the Ravens as just a Head Coach, things wouldn't have been so tougher offensively.

However when you come with that offensive guru label, the pressure to succeed offense intensifies.

Billick was a really good coach, and you are right about him getting the most out of his players, as a Head Coach. However as a OC, I'm not so sure.

[Free Agent]

Cam has great players to work with, but he still can't manufacture consistent offensive production. Billick gets my vote.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='PWNEDbyDEANO' timestamp='1307374805' post='693587']
I'd take Billick because he has a good year on his resume and he would have me excited and intrigued about the potential of our offense.

Cam's resume is not so impressive, [b]I'd almost go as far to say he has more significant failures than successes[/b] and I don't think he could take our offense to a level it could be capable of, or that Billick [i]might[/i] have been able to.
[/quote]

His lone season with the Dolphins (a situation I don't think anyone could have succeeded in) what other significant failures has he had in your opinion?

[Guest ArmyRaven52]

Can't stand Cam, another reason I like Billick is with these rookie receivers they would have a way better chance of seeing the field on a consistent basis (ask Randy Moss.)

[Ravensfan23]

[quote name='PWNEDbyDEANO' timestamp='1307374805' post='693587']
I'd take Billick because he has a good year on his resume and he would have me excited and intrigued about the potential of our offense.

Cam's resume is not so impressive, I'd almost go as far to say he has more significant failures than successes and I don't think he could take our offense to a level it could be capable of, or that Billick [i]might[/i] have been able to.
[/quote]

Are you talking about a Ravens' resume or overall? Because Billick had the one great year with the Vikings and the 4 previous years were pretty good.

Cam while with the Chargers lead that offense to a top 5 ranking 3 out of his 5 seasons there.

So they both had really good success before coming to the Ravens. I think from a talent stand point, Billick had the better players, but Cam had his fair share of great players as well.

[flynismo]

[quote name='Ravensfan23' timestamp='1307374384' post='693584']<br />Oh yea, it was clear that having a QB that wasn't worthy was holding us back, however, I knew many fans who were upset with the news that Billick's job was safe, then many fans were very happy when Billick was fired. I didn't hear a lot of people screaming for the Ravens to keep Billick and draft Matt Ryan in the first round. Now for people to say, well Billick never had a QB, well he had 8-9 seasons to get a serviceable QB. <br /><br />The Ravens never needed a great QB, we had great defense, a dominate running game, and really good special teams. We just needed a QB who was above average, but the offensive guru, couldn't get at least 1 our of the 14 QBs we had to be above average. <br /><br />Yea in 06' we had Mac 9 and we had one of the greatest seasons in franchise history, but we also had one of the best defenses in franchise history that year as well. I could make the case that Cam could have went 14-2 with a Rookie QB, if it wasn't for a terrible roughing the passer call vs Ten, and the defense giving up two 90+ game winning drives vs Pit. I could say Cam offense helped lead us to the AFC Champion game with a rookie QB. But none of that really mattes.<br /><br />Because, again it all goes back to players making the coach. If Billick brought all the talent he had with the Vikings over to Baltimore, our offense wouldn't have been so bad. <br /><br />Look at Rex Ryan as a DC, he's great. However when we had to rely on guys like Derrick Martin, Ronnie Prude, and David Pittman to start in the secondary our defense looked horrible. Didn't make Rex any less of a coach. <br /><br />This Billick vs Cam thing is like the back up QB being the most popular guy in town. When you have something or someone that isn't working, the other guy always looks better. <br /><br />Go back to 2007,2005,2002 or even 2000 and pose this same exact question. I'm willing to bet a great amount of money that most of us on this board would select Cam Cameron hands down. <br /><br />Hell I know many Ravens fans, that thought it didn't matter who our new head coach was, Rex, Harbs, Jason, as long as we added Cam Cameron as OC, then things would be good. <br /><br />Now we have Cam and 1 season out of his 3 here hasn't been good and now he's one of the worse OC in the NFL. It's laughable to me.<br />[/quote]


don't have time to respond to the whole post, but I did want to emphasize one comment that you made so that everyone is clear on the purpose of the thread...

When you said comparing the two is like comparing backup QB, I had something similiar in mind. I think both of them has underachieved during their time here, and both were/are generally unpopular among Ravens fans.
I just thought it would be interesting to see who everyone sucked less.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='ArmyRaven52' timestamp='1307376044' post='693596']
Can't stand Cam, another reason I like Billick is with these rookie receivers they would have a way better chance of seeing the field on a consistent basis (ask Randy Moss.)
[/quote]

Are you serious? Moss is one of the most talented players to ever play the game. Of course he was going to see early playing time.

Since Cam joined this team, what rookie WR have they had that was noticeably more talented than the players ahead of him but still rode the bench?

I don't understand this feeling among fans that the young WRs will be forgotten. Yes, Stallworth was underutilized and Reed didn't even see a pass but that doesn't mean the same will happen to Smith and Doss. The numbers game alone that'll probably be in their favor is reason alone to expect production.

[flynismo]

[quote name='Ravensfan23' timestamp='1307375150' post='693588']<br />And we got suckered into believing that rep. Hell even Billick was a prisoner of his rep. I strongly believe that if Billick came to the Ravens as just a Head Coach, things wouldn't have been so tougher offensively. <br /><br />However when you come with that offensive guru label, the pressure to succeed offense intensifies. <br /><br />Billick was a really good coach, and you are right about him getting the most out of his players, as a Head Coach. However as a OC, I'm not so sure.<br />[/quote]


I think the 'offensive guru' label should have came with an asterisk.
Billick needs a decent QB to be successful.
As hard as he tried, he just could not make something out of nothing when it came to his QB / WR here.
I think ravensdfan said it perfectly; he put too much faith / responsibility in the hands of mediocre players. And while that isn't a bad thing (I actually liked that about BB), when it was painfully obvious that Boller was never going to 'get it', he should have improvised.


and that faith in his men is in stark contrast to the way it seems that Cam has shackled Flacco. I guarantee Flacco would be even further along than he already is, because Billick would have given Flacco all the opportunities to prove himself in clutch situations especially, but also at running an offense. Billick is more 'behind-the-scenes' and guide you along, where Cam is a friggin' tyrant (which isn't always a bad thing. Boller probably would have turned out better under Cam than he did Billick).

Pure speculation on my part, but I honestly do believe that if Billick ran THIS offense with Flacco, Boldin, Rice, etc he would be far more successful than Cam. I just dont see him doing all the head scratching things that Cam does that blows up in his face (switching Oher and Gaither, changing to zone blocking, sending Stallworth on more end arounds than routes, etc etc etc).
In fact, I think Billick would have a field day with this group of players.

[Suggs Package]

I think most of you are drinking the purple kool-aid haha. I would pick Cam. Anyone who can get Gus Frerotte into the Pro Bowl must be a genius haha. But in an ideal world, I would have Cam as a coordinator just to delevop Flacco, because he has a MUCH better track record with developing young QBs (Jim Harbaugh, Elivs Grbac, Randle El, Treen Green, Brees, Rivers). Once I were totally comfortable with Flacco leading the team, then maybe Billick comes into the conversation. But for now, Cam is our best option.

[Ravensfan23]

[quote name='ArmyRaven52' timestamp='1307376044' post='693596']
Can't stand Cam, another reason I like Billick is with these rookie receivers they would have a way better chance of seeing the field on a consistent basis (ask Randy Moss.)
[/quote]

You do realize that Randy Moss was a first round draft pick. Guys like Moss will generally play early.

Rookie WRs under Billick saw no more playing time then Justin Harper, Marcus Smith and David Reed saw with Cam.

Travis Taylor(1st round 2000)
9 games 8 start 28 catches

Brandon Stokley(4th round 1999)
7 games his first 2 seasons combined.

Todd Heap(1st round 2001)
12 games 6 starts 16 catches.

Terry Jones(5th round 2002)
14 games 6 starts 11 cathces

Ron Johnson(4th 2002)
16 games 4 starts 10 catches

Javin Hunter(6th round 2002)
12 games 3 starts 5 catches.

Davard Darling(3rd round 2004)
3games 0 starts 3 catches

Clarence Moore(6th round 2004)
16games 6 starts 24 catches

Mark Clayton(1st round 2005)
14 games 10 starts 44 catches

Demetrius Williams(4th round 2006)
16 games 1 start 22 catches

Quinn Sypniewski(5th round 2006)
16 games 3 starts 2 catches

Yamon Figurs(3rd round 2007)
14 games 0 starts 1 catch

So exactly why would the rookies we just drafted have a better chance of playing more consistently under Billick?

Rookie WRs just don't get much playing time, you can look around the NFL. It's not just the Ravens and Cam or Harbs not playing rookie WRs. WR is one of the toughest position for a rookie to come in and produce. Unless you are a 1st round pick, more often then not you're not gonna see much playing time, unless there is a injury, or you force you're way on the field.

[flynismo]

,[quote name='Ed_Reed20' timestamp='1307377746' post='693612']<br />Are you serious? Moss is one of the most talented players to ever play the game. Of course he was going to see early playing time. <br /><br />Since Cam joined this team, what rookie WR have they had that was noticeably more talented than the players ahead of him but still rode the bench?  <br /><br />I don't understand this feeling among fans that the young WRs will be forgotten. Yes, Stallworth was underutilized and Reed didn't even see a pass but that doesn't mean the same will happen to Smith and Doss. The numbers game alone that'll probably be in their favor is reason alone to expect production.<br />[/quote]

yeah, I never understood all the clamoring lately to throw these rookie WR out on the field. I mean, I understand that our WR under performed last year (even my man crush Boldin played sub par), but that only goes to show how tough the position is in the NFL. When a probable HOF wr who is still in his prime struggled at times, why in the world would anyone think some wet behind the ears kid would be any better?,,,,

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1307379329' post='693632']
yeah, I never understood all the clamoring lately to throw these rookie WR out on the field. I mean, I understand that our WR under performed last year (even my man crush Boldin played sub par), but that only goes to show how tough the position is in the NFL. When a probable HOF wr who is still in his prime struggled at times, why in the world would anyone think some wet behind the ears kid would be any better?,,,,
[/quote]

If Smith and Doss can make an impact as the season wears on like Sanders and Brown did for the Steelers last season, I'll be satisfied. I'm expecting Dickson and Pitta to do more as well, which will cut into the young WRs' production.