Shutdown Showdown:

[flynismo]

[quote name='Bmoresun' timestamp='1305492477' post='686661']<br />Ok well while you don't think Prince stacks up with Smith and Peterson, all of the experts do, and i bet if it was reversed and the Giants picked Smith and we got Prince you would be saying Smith doesn't stack up. There is a reason that Prince went 19th and the analysts called it a steal. So i think you need to include everyone in the conversation, not just the guy the ravens got and the first corner taken.<br />[/quote]

i can tell you're new here. I pretty much annoyed the entire board all off season with my rants about how great I think Smith is, and how he is at worst, the 2nd best CB in the class.

And I really could care less about 'expert opinions'. They are wrong just as often as they are right.

[Token]

I think Amukamara might have the hardest time transitioning to the NFL out of the 3. An argument I've heard against him a few times is that he doesn't know how to play without using his hands. And by that they mean, he'll have his hands all over the receiver 20 yards down the field sometimes. You can't do that in the NFL unless you want to draw an illegal contact flag.

[Bmoresun]

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1305492854' post='686664']
i can tell you're new here. I pretty much annoyed the entire board all off season with my rants about how great I think Smith is, and how he is at worst, the 2nd best CB in the class.

And I really could care less about 'expert opinions'. They are wrong just as often as they are right.
[/quote]

If we have already determined that college success and stats don't matter when discussing how good a player will be in the Pro's, and now the opinion of the analysts and drafting clubs don't matter, what kind of substantial reasoning do you want??? Wonderlick test scores? Shuttle speed? God knows forty time doesn't mean everything.

[Guest ArmyRaven52]

[quote name='Bmoresun' timestamp='1305492698' post='686663']
If we have already determined that college success and stats don't matter when discussing how good a player will be in the Pro's, and now the opinion of the analysts and drafting clubs don't matter, what kind of substantial reasoning do you want??? Wonderlick test scores? Shuttle speed? God knows forty time doesn't mean everything.
[/quote]

Since you like deion so much, his speed defnitely did not hurt him in the pros at all, actually that was the biggest thing people were talking about the most, suprised he wasnt a raider actually.

[Bmoresun]

[quote name='Token' timestamp='1305492876' post='686665']
I think Amukamara might have the hardest time transitioning to the NFL out of the 3. An argument I've heard against him a few times is that he doesn't know how to play without using his hands. And by that they mean, he'll have his hands all over the receiver 20 yards down the field sometimes. You can't do that in the NFL unless you want to draw an illegal contact flag.
[/quote]

very acute observation, you obviously watched Mel Kiper's statements on Prince during the NFL draft.

[Bmoresun]

[quote name='ArmyRaven52' timestamp='1305492929' post='686667']
Since you like deion so much, his speed defnitely did not hurt him in the pros at all, actually that was the biggest thing people were talking about the most about him, suprised he isnt a raider actually.
[/quote]


You know who else had great speed??? Fabian Washington

[Token]

[quote name='Bmoresun' timestamp='1305492991' post='686668']
very acute observation, [b]you obviously watched Mel Kiper's statements on Prince during the NFL draft.[/b]
[/quote]

I watched the draft on NFLN.

[Guest ArmyRaven52]

[quote name='Bmoresun' timestamp='1305493030' post='686669']
You know who else had great speed??? Fabian Washington
[/quote]
for every CB you can name with great speed that was a bust I can name one that was good. The 40 is looked at not only by how fast a player is but how good of an athlete in general, it is generally the benchmark to which players at skill positions are held, and unfortunately have the biggest impact in draft stock

[Bmoresun]

[quote name='ArmyRaven52' timestamp='1305493322' post='686673']
for every CB you can name with great speed that was a bust I can name one that was good. The 40 is looked at not only by how fast a player is but how good of an athlete in general, it is generally the benchmark to which players at skill positions are held, and unfortunately have the biggest impact in draft stock
[/quote]


All im saying is that 40 time isn't everything, yeah its worth looking at but it isn't the end all be all of success and skill.

[1/28/01]

[quote name='Bmoresun' timestamp='1305488257' post='686620']
I would love to know how all of you know sooooooooo much about the specifics of Patrick Peterson and Jimmy Smith games, did you watch all of Colorado's games and compare them to LSU's, or did you just read Mel Kiper's reports on them (Cause he has never been wrong before)????? No one will know how good these two guys will be until week one, end of story, and for the record COLLEGE SUCCESS DOESN'T EQUAL PRO SUCCESS, just ask Kyle Boller.
[/quote]
Its called the off season......oh yeah, its also a forum

[Guest ArmyRaven52]

your right not everything, wont deny that, however if you are a guy who runs a 4.5 or above and trying to cover D-Jax, Andre, Megatron, or Harvin you arent going to be able to get it done on a consistent basis. Now back to the argument at hand I say smith has the highest ceiling out of all of them. He is overall the best athlete going by numbers.

[flynismo]

[quote name='Bmoresun' timestamp='1305492911' post='686666']<br />If we have already determined that college success and stats don't matter when discussing how good a player will be in the Pro's, and now the opinion of the analysts and drafting clubs don't matter, what kind of substantial reasoning do you want??? Wonderlick test scores? Shuttle speed? God knows forty time doesn't mean everything.<br />[/quote]


no one said college success is meaningless. Quite the opposite. We only said the obvious, which is it guarantees nothing.
And when I said Smith's stats are meaningless, it was in context to a post I was replying to.


And why the heck would you base your opinion off of someone else's opinion??? Of course expert opinions hold little weight, because it is just that - their opinion, which has resulted in many spectacular busts.

[Bmoresun]

[quote name='1/28/01' timestamp='1305493654' post='686677']
Its called the off season......oh yeah, its also a forum
[/quote]

Yeah your right lets remove all reason from arguments cause its a forum, i think that Cary Williams will step up and be a "Shutdown Corner" its OK if i don't back that up with anything cause its a forum and its the off season,in addition no one can criticize that cause its a forum.

[Bmoresun]

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1305493893' post='686684']
no one said college success is meaningless. Quite the opposite. We only said the obvious, which is it guarantees nothing.
And when I said Smith's stats are meaningless, it was in context to a post I was replying to.


And why the heck would you base your opinion off of someone else's opinion??? Of course expert opinions hold little weight, because it is just that - their opinion, which has resulted in many spectacular busts.
[/quote]

College stats don't mean anything in the NFL, plain and simple. Secondly unless you played Pro Ball or are an analyst for the NFL or ESPN the experts know more than you, and me, because that's their job, granted are they wrong sometimes yes, but i don't tell a fireman how to do his job cause i went on a field trip to a firehouse once. You don't know as much as them so to ignore their opinions diminishes yours. I don't base my opinion solely off the analysts but i do take what they say into account.

[flynismo]

[quote name='Bmoresun' timestamp='1305493953' post='686685']<br />Yeah your right lets remove all reason from arguments cause its a forum, i think that Cary Williams will step up and be a &quot;Shutdown Corner&quot; its OK if i don't back that up with anything cause its a forum and its the off season,in addition no one can criticize that cause its a forum.<br />[/quote]

well if your idea of 'reason' is parroting other 'expert' opinions and discounting their collegiate accomplishments, then I dont know what to tell you...

[Guest ArmyRaven52]

[quote name='Bmoresun' timestamp='1305494361' post='686689']
College stats don't mean anything in the NFL, plain and simple. Secondly unless you played Pro Ball or are an analyst for the NFL or ESPN the experts know more than you, and me, because that's their job, granted are they wrong sometimes yes, but i don't tell a fireman how to do his job cause i went on a field trip to a firehouse once. You don't know as much as them so to ignore their opinions diminishes yours. I don't base my opinion solely off the analysts but i do take what they say into account.
[/quote]

It is not hard to do what an analyst does. most of them are their because they were players which speaks more to their athletic prowess then their ability to analyze. Sure they had to be intelligent but fans who have a passion for football and a halfway functioning brain can do the same thing. They can see a CB get his butt down in his back pedal or if he is too high and then be able to look at the receiver and watch him set it up with a double move. They know that the Tampa 2 defense is really a cover three and it is instantly recognizable when the LB bolts back 12 yds of the LOS. Or they can see when a lineman is going to get beat if he takes to large of a first step and overtends himself that he is going to get beat by the bullrush because he cant get recover quick enough and gets bullrushed, or too small of a step and gets beat by a quick edge move because he hasnt covered enough ground to get ahead of the loop and establich a pocket. Or that we cant understand zone blitz schemes and what there intent is or cant see them when they happen or the personnel you would need to run a defense like that. I just hope you are not saying we as fans are uneducated and incapable of processing information from tape and understand what we are seeing.

[Bmoresun]

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1305494617' post='686693']
well if your idea of 'reason' is parroting other 'expert' opinions and discounting their collegiate accomplishments, then I dont know what to tell you...
[/quote]


Tell me does how many interceptions a player has in college mean he is going to get the same amount in the Pros? NO it doesn't matter what they did in college, this is the NFL its a whole new level, it doesn't translate, so until a player proves their ability on Sunday, they are nothing, come Sunday it doesn't matter how good your stats WERE; its meaningless.

[Bmoresun]

[quote name='ArmyRaven52' timestamp='1305494802' post='686696']
It is not hard to do what an analyst does. most of them are their because they were players which speaks more to their athletic prowess then their ability to analyze. Sure they had to be intelligent but fans who have a passion for football and a halfway functioning brain can do the same thing. They can see a CB get his butt down in his back pedal or if he is too high and then be able to look at the receiver and watch him set it up with a double move. They know that the Tampa 2 defense is really a cover three and it is instantly recognizable when the LB bolts back 12 yds of the LOS. Or they can see when a lineman is going to get beat if he takes to large of a first step and overtends himself that he is going to get beat by the bullrush because he cant get recover quick enough and gets bullrushed, or too small of a step and gets beat by a quick edge move because he hasnt covered enough ground to get ahead of the loop and establich a pocket. Or that we cant understand zone blitz schemes and what there intent is or cant see them when they happen or the personnel you would need to run a defense like that. I just hope you are not saying we as fans are uneducated and incapable of processing information from tape and understand what we are seeing.
[/quote]

I'm saying they are analyst and you and me are not for a reason, and that its their job to analysis football, i've spoken to Mel Kiper and that man knows more than i ever will about football, because he devotes his career to it, so like i said before by discounting expert opinions completely you are discrediting your own.

[Guest ArmyRaven52]

[quote name='Bmoresun' timestamp='1305495189' post='686700']
I'm saying they are analyst and you and me are not for a reason, and that its their job to analysis football, i've spoken to Mel Kiper and that man knows more than i ever will about football, because he devotes his career to it, so like i said before by discounting expert opinions completely you are discrediting your own.
[/quote]
sucks for him because he does not really know as much as mayock or mccshay, and to be honest as a general consensus you seem to be the only one taking him seriously. That guy is wrong more often then the other too if you would have said mayock or mccshay then i could have considered it. And to be that presumptuous about other fans who may have been former players or coaches or what have you is not a winning combination. All that being said you trying to say that there are no stats in college that translates is also innaccurate.

[Guest ArmyRaven52]

Just to prove my point AJ green was considered the best receiver in the draft by many, he went against jimmy smith his senior year, he had one catch.... for one yard... no first down. I happen to think that is a very interesting statistic. Or that jimmy smith went against a guy named andrew luck who is considered the top college quarterback in college and was the product of a system that was conceived by a coach that apparently has nfl potential. That being sai you know how many times luck tried Jimmy, just once and came up with no dice, so apparently he is smart.

[Guest ArmyRaven52]

We could also go with stats are important, because for some reason the combine and college stats arent considered by GM's just so they can have an office with their name on the door. Obviously stats have a huge part in how their success translates to the NFL because most GM's try to get players into a system that benefits both the player in the team mutually. College stats are looked at by hey when this guy allowed a completion was it in man or zone, where was it on the field, what was the down and distance, how big was the receiver, was he a speed or possession guy, what kind of routes were they most susceptible to being burnt buy, how many times did they win jump balls. Are those stats that are reflected in the columns of the stat book but to think that coaches dont look at that and to dont think that their strengths and weaknesses will be relegated because of a change of scenery and competition is ridiculous.

[Guest ArmyRaven52]

ok sorry nismo now to get back to the original, I think smith being longer, and equally athletis, with his combination of reppin 224 the most time I would have to say that he is my pick. He has all the physical tools and with reed over the top he can take more chances early to get his ball skills down, or vice versa he can get a pass deflection and ed reed can turn it into an INT i.e. the ray to reed alley oop in Buffalo.

[Corvus]

I was against us drafting Jimmy before we actually did. Now I want to see him achieve total success and be one of the best corners in the league. That said, I will repeat what others have already posted: none of these rookie corners will be a shutdown guy this year, none. People can applaud all the talent in the two conferences Smith, Peterson, and Amukamara came out of but that great level of talent is blown away by some of the guys in the NFL. You don't think Peyton Manning will test Jimmy when we play them this year? You don't think Andre Johnson has some double moves or other tricks uo his sleeve for when we play the Texans? The same goes for Peterson and Amukamara, the sky is the limit for all 3 1st rounders this year and I think all 3 are gonna be solid for their teams their rookie season, but none of them will come close to being a shutdown guy THIS year. I hope Jimmy and Pagano's high hopes for him prove me wrong but I just don't see it, especially with the lockout still going and time ticking for every rookie to be ready this year.

[izvoodoo]

I honestly think Jimmy will become the best corner in this draft simply because his instincts are considerable greater than Peterson.

Peterson seems a better athlete and a more complete football player where as Smith seems more like the better "Corner."

[flynismo]

[quote name='izvoodoo' timestamp='1305498479' post='686715']<br />I honestly think Jimmy will become the best corner in this draft simply because his instincts are considerable greater than Peterson.<br /><br />Peterson seems a better athlete and a more complete football player where as Smith seems more like the better &quot;Corner.&quot;<br />[/quote]

that's an interesting view, and makes a very fine distinction.

Peterson could be used at safety in a pinch, so that gives him added value; not to mention he would seem to be a prime candidate to extend his career a couple years by making the move when the time comes that he's no longer a highly productive CB.
Smith wouldn't make that transition as well. Maybe not at all.

[hawkprey]

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1305499182' post='686720']
that's an interesting view, and makes a very fine distinction.

Peterson could be used at safety in a pinch, so that gives him added value; not to mention he would seem to be a prime candidate to extend his career a couple years by making the move when the time comes that he's no longer a highly productive CB.
Smith wouldn't make that transition as well. Maybe not at all.
[/quote]

Peterson is going to be explosive on punt/kickoff returns and really I wouldn't be surprised if he plays most of his career at safety. He's not the shutdown corner that Smith is. I love how Jimmy punches the ball out when he tackles. The cure for slant routes...

[-Truth-]

[quote name='ArmyRaven52' timestamp='1305495679' post='686703']
[b]Just to prove my point AJ green was considered the best receiver in the draft by many, he went against jimmy smith his senior year, he had one catch.... for one yard... no first down.[/b] I happen to think that is a very interesting statistic. Or that jimmy smith went against a guy named andrew luck who is considered the top college quarterback in college and was the product of a system that was conceived by a coach that apparently has nfl potential. That being sai you know how many times luck tried Jimmy, just once and came up with no dice, so apparently he is smart.
[/quote]
To be fair to Green, Smith rarely covered him during their game. Jalil Brown was assigned to Green for the majority of the game, who finished with 159 yards and 2 TDs during his first game off of the suspension. Also Stanford never faced Colorado, so when did Andrew Luck face Jimmy Smith?

[izvoodoo]

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1305499182' post='686720']
that's an interesting view, and makes a very fine distinction.

Peterson could be used at safety in a pinch, so that gives him added value; not to mention he would seem to be a prime candidate to extend his career a couple years by making the move when the time comes that he's no longer a highly productive CB.
Smith wouldn't make that transition as well. Maybe not at all.
[/quote]

I feel like if smith really learns to deliver the blow he can play safety. He sort of played like he had to make every tackle because he did. He couldn't play down hill at all.

But in terms of coverage, he clearly is the smarter player. I would say Jimmy Smith is like Nnamdi and Peterson is like charles woodson. Charles Woodson was always more of a football player than a corner, where as Nnamdi is (and has been) the best corner. The difference is if we can add another play making safety it sort of nullifies the advantage of having peterson because that safety can make the plays in the box (In other words Ray Ray Armstong and Jimmy Smith is better than Ray Ray Armstrong and Patrick Peterson if we were to draft Ray-ray next year).

Also Jimmy Smith can still help on special teams as a gunner and a blocker, not every special teams player is a kick returner (though the most important is).

Jimmy is more fluid in his hips and has better shuffles in his feet. When he changes directions it doesn't look like he changes direction at all, where as peterson can stumble a little and make up for it with his speed. But that's not really a good thing, speed is great and he certainly has a step on Jimmy but he's not the silky smooth mover Jimmy is.

I'd say it's unfair to say Jimmy Smith has worse hands than Patrick Peterson because Jimmy was rarely tested.

I like prince amukamara, but he is not as good as advertised and his hands are suspect.

As fast as Patrick Peterson is, speed rarely makes up for being able to simply ride a receivers hip. Also Patrick Peterson and Prince Amukamara were playing with future first round picks as complementary corners. where as Jalil Brown is only a mid level NBA talent.

I think at the end of the day Jimmy will have the better career because Patrick Peterson is on the cardinals and to be honest they're not that good.

How did we draft this guy!

[SpeedKills]

From my point of view, it really, REALLY depends on the team's need. Jimmy, frankly, is the better pure CB - but Peterson is the better pure athlete and is more versatile than Jimmy is. For our team, which doesn't need a playmaker as much as a CB that will render one side of the field nullified (which Jimmy certainly has the POTENTIAL to do - hear me BmoreSun? POTENTIAL, not surefire thing). But Arizona, they needed a PLAYMAKER, who's gonna score it if he gets in his hands 5 out of 10 times. If Peterson was the need for our team, then I'd certainly take him, but Jimmy is the better FIT. Not necessarily the better player - but the better player for our system.

That's my take, anyway.

[Bltravens]

[quote name='ed.s52' timestamp='1305487617' post='686611']
Considering Peterson's athleticism and ball hawk skills, I'd confidently say he has the highest roof out of all of them if develops a little more as a pure cover corner. But right now I really like Amukamara.

He has potential to be a ball hawk having 5 picks in his senior season and also is a great pure cover corner. Excells in press coverage.

Personally I like him better than Smith and although I'd obviously rather have Peterson I prefer him as a pure cover corner.


That said, if Prince is Aso Smith is Champ Bailey.
[/quote]
Amukamara's press coverage is odd though, he presses at 10 yards and he wont be able to do that in the NFL. Amukamara also has the tightest hips out of all 3 and is the slowest in transition/out of his breaks.