Shutdown Showdown:

[flynismo]

This is a comparison that I have thought about all offseason.

On the one hand, if there is any CB who can match Smith's size and athleticism, it is without a doubt Peterson. In fact, many people think safety may be a better fit in the NFL for Peterson.

On the other hand, Peterson isn't the pure cover corner Smith is. He will occasionally misread plays, gamble and get burned, and commits too many PI penalties.

Now, we know Peterson gets all the hype, we know a lot of people think Smith has character issues. I'm not interested in any of that...I just want to spark debate on which of these two is the best CB of the 2011 class.

I'll start it off. Some would argue that Peterson played stiffer competition. My counter argument is very simple. If Peterson played in Colorado, would he give up 11 receptions in two seasons like Smith did?

Let the debate begin...

[Clutch Ravens]

I'd say Peterson is a vastly superior secondary play-maker, whereas Jimmy Smith has better coverage skills.

Smith's a guy you'd avoid because he's got air-tight coverage, Peterson's a guy you'd avoid because a ball thrown anywhere near him has the chance of going the other way for 6.

[Token]

Peterson is a better all-around player.
I do agree that Jimmy is the better pure cover corner though.

[ed.s52]

Is Amukamara not in this conversation?

[flynismo]

[quote name='ed.s52' timestamp='1305487173' post='686604']<br />Is Amukamara not in this conversation?<br />[/quote]

you can throw him in if you'd like.

[ed.s52]

Considering Peterson's athleticism and ball hawk skills, I'd confidently say he has the highest roof out of all of them if develops a little more as a pure cover corner. But right now I really like Amukamara.

He has potential to be a ball hawk having 5 picks in his senior season and also is a great pure cover corner. Excells in press coverage.

Personally I like him better than Smith and although I'd obviously rather have Peterson I prefer him as a pure cover corner.


That said, if Prince is Aso Smith is Champ Bailey.

[Bmoresun]

I can not figure out what peoples obsession is with having a "shutdown corner", believe it or not teams win Superbowls without having a "shutdown corner" to name a few.....
-Pittsburgh, 09, 06
-NYG, 08
-Colt, 07
-Ravens, 2000 (YES Ravens, Duane Starks was not considered a shut down corner by any means in 2000, and C-Mac was a rookie who's best ball was a few years away).

Secondly people maybe you haven't realized that Jimmy Smith or Patrick Peterson HAVEN'T PLAYED A DOWN YET; meaning we have no idea how good they will be. Further yet, how can you expect a rookie to come in, and week one be a "shutdown corner" ???? Who do you expect Jimmy Smith to be Dion Sanders?
Was Joe Haden, Kareem Jackson, Patrick Robinson, Kyle Wilson, or Devin McCourty Shut Down? Answer : NO, McCourty played great don't get me wrong, but in no way was he "shut down".
Those were the names corners taken first round in the 2010 NFL draft for those of you who were wondering.

Patience is a virtue people i hope just as much as any of you that Jimmy Smith turns out to be fantastic, but like any player he is gonna need time, so don't start complaining when week one Jimmy Smith isn't Darrelle Revis.

[ellicottraven]

I think if one could reflect on the notion of who would be drafted first if Jimmy Smith had no character issues surrounding him it would be very helpful. I don't believe Smith would be drafted in the top 5 regardless. In that sense I think it is widely percieved by football scouts and GMs' that Peterson was the better all around talent. However, as a cover CB, I think Jimmy Smith is much better.
The point really is we need a cover corner able to shut out one side of the field, so in my opinion Jimmy Smith is better for us - I emphasize the 'us'.

[Bmoresun]

I would love to know how all of you know sooooooooo much about the specifics of Patrick Peterson and Jimmy Smith games, did you watch all of Colorado's games and compare them to LSU's, or did you just read Mel Kiper's reports on them (Cause he has never been wrong before)????? No one will know how good these two guys will be until week one, end of story, and for the record COLLEGE SUCCESS DOESN'T EQUAL PRO SUCCESS, just ask Kyle Boller.

[flynismo]

[quote name='Token' timestamp='1305487018' post='686602']Peterson is a better all-around player.[/quote]

that's what I'm not really convinced of and gets me to thinking...
I think Peterson is better against the run, but the difference isn't as great as the difference between their coverage skills.

A simple way of thinking of it would be to say Peterson gets a 10 for run support and 8 for coverage. And Smith gets a 9 for run support and 10 for coverage.

Smith would have a combined score of 19, Peterson would be 18.
(note: this is just for illustrative purposes only, an attempt to demonstrate what I mean by the differences in run support not being as great as differences in coverage.)

now to make it a bit more complicated:

since we are talking about CBs, shouldn't their coverage score carry more weight in the 'formula' above?

For example, maybe the total score should be reflected like this instead:

Total Score = Run Support Score + (Coverage Score * 1.25)


thoughts?

[flynismo]

[quote name='Bmoresun' timestamp='1305488257' post='686620']<br />I would love to know how all of you know sooooooooo much about the specifics of Patrick Peterson and Jimmy Smith games, did you watch all of Colorado's games and compare them to LSU's, or did you just read Mel Kiper's reports on them (Cause he has never been wrong before)????? No one will know how good these two guys will be until week one, end of story, and for the record COLLEGE SUCCESS DOESN'T EQUAL PRO SUCCESS, just ask Kyle Boller.<br />[/quote]

yes, none of us follows college football, we just go by what we hear and read.

*yawn*

[berad]

[quote name='Bmoresun' timestamp='1305488257' post='686620']
I would love to know how all of you know sooooooooo much about the specifics of Patrick Peterson and Jimmy Smith games, did you watch all of Colorado's games and compare them to LSU's, or did you just read Mel Kiper's reports on them (Cause he has never been wrong before)????? No one will know how good these two guys will be until week one, end of story, and for the record COLLEGE SUCCESS DOESN'T EQUAL PRO SUCCESS, just ask Kyle Boller.
[/quote]

They probably watched some game videos on Youtube, maybe caught a couple of college games on ESPN, and/or watched every single one of his snaps religiously - you don't know. It's a boring, frustrated off-season and these are just opinions and projections based on what they saw from the players in college. It's really nothing to get upset about.

[Bmoresun]

I hope week one Jimmy Smith gets scorched by Mike Wallace, so everyone who called him a shutdown corner can shove their foot in their mouth, until then just keep crowning a rookie corner who hasn't played a pro snap a "Shutdown Corner".

[-Truth-]

I'd have to re-watch the footage in an effort to make a better comparison, but going by my initial assessments, Patrick Peterson >>> Jimmy Smith.

[Bmoresun]

[quote name='berad' timestamp='1305488559' post='686624']
They probably watched some game videos on Youtube, maybe caught a couple of college games on ESPN, and/or watched every single one of his snaps religiously - you don't know. It's a boring, frustrated off-season and these are just opinions and projections based on what they saw from the players in college. It's really nothing to get upset about.
[/quote]


It is a boring off-season, and it seems it has made people delusional, Jimmy Smith probably shouldn't even be starting week one considering how well Josh Wilson, and Chris Carr, played towards the end of last season, and now we get our number one corner back from injury; and lets not forget about the developing Lardarius Webb. Jimmy Smith needs time to acclimate to the pro level.

[Token]

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1305488385' post='686622']
that's what I'm not really convinced of and gets me to thinking...
[b]I think Peterson is better against the run, but the difference isn't as great as the difference between their coverage skills.[/b]

A simple way of thinking of it would be to say Peterson gets a 10 for run support and 8 for coverage. And Smith gets a 9 for run support and 10 for coverage.

Smith would have a combined score of 19, Peterson would be 18.
(note: this is just for illustrative purposes only, an attempt to demonstrate what I mean by the differences in run support not being as great as differences in coverage.)

now to make it a bit more complicated:

since we are talking about CBs, shouldn't their coverage score carry more weight in the 'formula' above?

For example, maybe the total score should be reflected like this instead:

Total Score = Run Support Score + (Coverage Score * 1.25)


thoughts?
[/quote]

I see what you're saying, and I agree with you. But it's not only about the run support when you talk about Peterson being an all-around better player.
It's been mentioned before, but he's a threat to score whenever he gets a pick and his ball skills are better than Jimmy's. He also was a 4 down player. Whenever you heard an analyst talk about Peterson, they brought up his return skills. I don't think he will be returning any punts or kicks because of the risk of injury, but I think that's what really put him over the top when you combine it with his athleticism and ability as a CB.
You see what I'm trying to say?

[berad]

[quote name='Bmoresun' timestamp='1305489049' post='686631']
It is a boring off-season, and it seems it has made people delusional, Jimmy Smith probably shouldn't even be starting week one considering how well Josh Wilson, and Chris Carr, played towards the end of last season, and now we get our number one corner back from injury; and lets not forget about the developing Lardarius Webb. Jimmy Smith needs time to acclimate to the pro level.
[/quote]

You're right, I'm not arguing that. But it's all just opinions. Topics and projections made in April and May often turn out to be wrong, come November and December - it's nothing new and it's nothing to berate people about.

[flynismo]

[quote name='Bmoresun' timestamp='1305488679' post='686625']<br />I hope week one Jimmy Smith gets scorched by Mike Wallace, so everyone who called him a shutdown corner can shove their foot in their mouth, until then just keep crowning a rookie corner who hasn't played a pro snap a &quot;Shutdown Corner&quot;.<br />[/quote]


obviously you haven't caught on to the idea that Shutdown Corner is a label that both these players earned as collegiate players. Stating the obvious, like "college success does not translate to NFL success" may be true, but has nothing to do with the conversation at hand, which is SPECULATING which guy will be the better NFL player.

And btw, even if Smith gets lit up by Wallace, that proves nothing. One bad game (in his rookie debut at that) does not erase the idea that Smith will be a shutdown cb.

[GrimCoconut]

[quote name='Bmoresun' timestamp='1305489049' post='686631']
It is a boring off-season, and it seems it has made people delusional, Jimmy Smith probably shouldn't even be starting week one considering how well Josh Wilson, and Chris Carr, played towards the end of last season, and now we get our number one corner back from injury; and lets not forget about the developing Lardarius Webb. Jimmy Smith needs time to acclimate to the pro level.
[/quote]

Do you dislike Jimmy Smith or something? People are just excited at the guy's potential and they're also excited because we haven't drafted a corner like him since C-Mac. In the words of the Joker "Why so serious?".

It's nothing to get upset over man.

Jimmy Smith looks like he's going to be a really good player to me. Peterson currently looks to be the more electric playermaker as everyone else said, though. We'll find out soon enough since we play against Arizona this year! Maybe in that game we'll see how well Peterson matches up against our rookies...if there is a season, that is.

[Bmoresun]

And btw, even if Smith gets lit up by Wallace, that proves nothing. One bad game (in his rookie debut at that) does not erase the idea that Smith will be a shutdown cb.
[/quote]

If Jimmy Smith gets torched by Mike Wallace week one the Baltimore media will go absolutely crazy, people will question the selection and nit pick at every aspect of his game. The front page of the Sun Sports page will be very critical. And your right it wont define his career by any means, but people will act like it does, just like your "speculating" how good he will be in the NFL based on nothing but college tapes, who cares how good they played in college?????????? Doesn't matter now, all that matters is what happens when he steps into M&T stadium.

[Bmoresun]

[quote name='GrimCoconut' timestamp='1305489877' post='686641']
Do you dislike Jimmy Smith or something? People are just excited at the guy's potential and they're also excited because we haven't drafted a corner like him since C-Mac. In the words of the Joker "Why so serious?".

It's nothing to get upset over man.

Jimmy Smith looks like he's going to be a really good player to me. Peterson currently looks to be the more electric playermaker as everyone else said, though. We'll find out soon enough since we play against Arizona this year! Maybe in that game we'll see how well Peterson matches up against our rookies...if there is a season, that is.
[/quote]

If you read my first post i say i hope Jimmy Smith turns out to be fantastic, however hope is exactly what it is. And we drafted several corners after C-MAC : Gary Baxter, Lamont Brightful,David Pittman,and Lardarius Webb. I do like him, i am just being realistic he isn't going to come in week one and dominate, if he does we struck gold and got the next Dion Sanders, but chances are that's not happening. So i get annoyed when people start crowning rookies "Shut Down", without ever having seen them play.

[Raveman]

[quote name='Bmoresun' timestamp='1305487682' post='686612']
I can not figure out what peoples obsession is with having a "shutdown corner", believe it or not teams win Superbowls without having a "shutdown corner" to name a few.....
-Pittsburgh, 09, 06
-NYG, 08
-Colt, 07
-Ravens, 2000 (YES Ravens, Duane Starks was not considered a shut down corner by any means in 2000, and C-Mac was a rookie who's best ball was a few years away).

Secondly people maybe you haven't realized that Jimmy Smith or Patrick Peterson HAVEN'T PLAYED A DOWN YET; meaning we have no idea how good they will be. Further yet, how can you expect a rookie to come in, and week one be a "shutdown corner" ???? Who do you expect Jimmy Smith to be Dion Sanders?
Was Joe Haden, Kareem Jackson, Patrick Robinson, Kyle Wilson, or Devin McCourty Shut Down? Answer : NO, McCourty played great don't get me wrong, but in no way was he "shut down".
Those were the names corners taken first round in the 2010 NFL draft for those of you who were wondering.

Patience is a virtue people i hope just as much as any of you that Jimmy Smith turns out to be fantastic, but like any player he is gonna need time, so don't start complaining when week one Jimmy Smith isn't Darrelle Revis.
[/quote]
You're my hero, you summed up everything i had been thinking since the draft.

[flynismo]

When did this thread become a debate about whether a shutdown corner is needed or not?Very simply, this is a discussion about who we think will be the best CB of the draft class.

[jimmysmith3]

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1305488385' post='686622']
that's what I'm not really convinced of and gets me to thinking...
I think Peterson is better against the run, but the difference isn't as great as the difference between their coverage skills.

A simple way of thinking of it would be to say Peterson gets a 10 for run support and 8 for coverage. And Smith gets a 9 for run support and 10 for coverage.

Smith would have a combined score of 19, Peterson would be 18.
(note: this is just for illustrative purposes only, an attempt to demonstrate what I mean by the differences in run support not being as great as differences in coverage.)

now to make it a bit more complicated:

since we are talking about CBs, shouldn't their coverage score carry more weight in the 'formula' above?

For example, maybe the total score should be reflected like this instead:

Total Score = Run Support Score + (Coverage Score * 1.25)


thoughts?
[/quote]

You can't use oppinions to create statistics. You've got to keep stats as stats and oppinions as oppinions.

[Bmoresun]

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1305491197' post='686651']
When did this thread become a debate about whether a shutdown corner is needed or not?Very simply, this is a discussion about who we think will be the best CB of the draft class.
[/quote]

Fine your right it is a debate about who the best CB is in the draft, the answer is simple, its Peterson, that's why he was taken 5th, and Jimmy Smith was taken 27th, and while your on the topic of best CB in the draft why didn't you include Prince Amukamara, i mean you wanna watch a dominate college player watch him, in 2010 he led the huskers secondary, which only relinquished one passing TD in the Big Twelve, that's amazing.

[flynismo]

Anyway, I don't think Prince stacks up against the other two. I dont think he's as well rounded, and actually think his ceiling is considerably lower

[flynismo]

[quote name='jimmysmith3' timestamp='1305491804' post='686655']<br />You can't use oppinions to create statistics. You've got to keep stats as stats and oppinions as oppinions.<br />[/quote]

i totally agree in theory, but Smith makes it impossible. He was almost never tried, so the few stats on him are essentially worthless..

[flynismo]

[quote name='Bmoresun' timestamp='1305491808' post='686656']<br />Fine your right it is a debate about who the best CB is in the draft, the answer is simple, its Peterson, that's why he was taken 5th, and Jimmy Smith was taken 27th, and while your on the topic of best CB in the draft why didn't you include Prince Amukamara, i mean you wanna watch a dominate college player watch him, in 2010 he led the huskers secondary, which only relinquished one passing TD in the Big Twelve, that's amazing.<br />[/quote]

see, now we're talking!

I want a much more substantial reasoning than draft position on your stance on Peterson. I mean, Boller was drafted ahead of Aaron Rodgers, so clearly Boller is better right?

[Bmoresun]

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1305491822' post='686657']
Anyway, I don't think Prince stacks up against the other two. I dont think he's as well rounded, and actually think his ceiling is considerably lower
[/quote]


Ok well while you don't think Prince stacks up with Smith and Peterson, all of the experts do, and i bet if it was reversed and the Giants picked Smith and we got Prince you would be saying Smith doesn't stack up. There is a reason that Prince went 19th and the analysts called it a steal. So i think you need to include everyone in the conversation, not just the guy the ravens got and the first corner taken.

[Bmoresun]

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1305492316' post='686660']
see, now we're talking!

I want a much more substantial reasoning than draft position on your stance on Peterson. I mean, Boller was drafted ahead of Aaron Rodgers, so clearly Boller is better right?
[/quote]

If we have already determined that college success and stats don't matter when discussing how good a player will be in the Pro's, and now the opinion of the analysts and drafting clubs don't matter, what kind of substantial reasoning do you want??? Wonderlick test scores? Shuttle speed? God knows forty time doesn't mean everything.