Flacco Superior To Ryan In The Clutch

[BmoreRaised]

[quote name='Ravensfan23' timestamp='1305648973' post='687472']
I don't know if you read my previous post, but i strongly feel that the pieces around Flacco has failed just as much as him. Does it make Flacco elite or give him excuses? No because he'll need to overcome those failures to be great.

I also really dislike to attack the comparisons between Flacco and Ryan, because it seem like when you credit one, you almost discredit the other. I've been guilty of that plenty.

However everything you just said about Flacco in the 4th quarter can be said about Ryan.

Seeing every game, every snap, and every throw from Flacco every Ravens fan has a bias opinion of Flacco, be it good or bad. Why, because we've seen every game, every snap, every throw. The same can be said for ALT and any other Falcons fan, about Matt Ryan.

Because we see every play of Flacco up close and person, it sticks in our minds more. Unless you've watched every throw that Ryan or any other QB has made, it'll be hard to compare.

When the Ravens mess up, especially late in games, it sticks in our minds. People that think its Flacco's fault proceed to torch the guy, people that feel he shouldn't be blamed proceed to point to other factors, that lead to the loss. However after the heat of the game and the emotions of a big win or lose are over, only a handful of fans can really look at a game or situation in a game for what its truly worth.

Its never as black and white as wins and losses. There is an area that shaded gray. In that shaded gray area is dropped passes, missed blocks, drive stalling penalties, etc. Now every QB has to deal with that, so it's not an excuse its fact. However in some of the spots that its viewed that Flacco couldn't come through, the best QBs in the NFL would have had a really hard time winning those games. Look at the 9 situations i posted earlier in this thread.

None of those situations can truly be placed on Flacco's shoulders imo, and to say, well he could have just come back on the next drive, you're talking about some of the best teams and defenses in the NFL at the time those games took place. Not that easy.

As for Ryan, from a far i look at his 20-2 home record and applaud it, however because I haven't watched every snap like ATL, I can only view the black and white of Matt Ryan for the most part. However from a distance looking into that shaded gray area, out of the 22 games at home, only 6 came against teams with winning records and only 4 made the playoffs. Now i know the argument, you can only play who's on your schedule, but that's not at all impressive to me.

On the other hand Flacco is 19-5 at home over his 3 year career. In those 3 years the Ravens have played 10 games against opponents with winning records and 8 have made the playoffs. Those 5 losses came against teams who all made the playoffs, won their division and/or was a #1 seed. The Ravens lost those 5 games by a total of 15 points, that's an average of 3 points a game. In 3 of the 5 losses, it was the defense that couldn't prevent late touchdown drives of 80(Ten), 92(Pit), and 80(Cin) yards, that would have sealed the win for the Ravens. In the other 2 losses, Flacco, threw a int(colts) and 4th down incomplete(pit).

Now am i saying this makes Flacco better then Ryan? of course not, my whole point is, too often people only focus on the black and white of the situation, and fail to acknowledge the shaded gray area. Everything I just said about Flacco and the 5 home losses, alt could probably produce the same for Ryan.

How many of Matt Ryan wins came at the hands of his team making plays around him, like the late int vs the 49ers that should have ended the game, but Roddy White caused a fumble. How many games do you look at Matt Ryan and say, his team let him down and he should really be undefeated at home? ATL would be able to answer that much more then anyone here.

However, when you don't account for the shaded areas, you leave so much to be desired in the debates and comparisons.

And to clear things up, I'm not bashing Matt Ryan or taking away from his home record and clutch wins. I just think from a media standpoint they just look at the black and white, the wins and losses, but they rarely look into what actually caused the outcome of a game. Then we as fans from a distance only see highlights of a comeback win by Ryan and it's like man i wish Flacco would do that. Or people say that's not impressive look at what Joe did.

So for people to think Matt Ryan is the better QB and has the most potential moving forward of the two, that's fine. The same goes for Flacco, but I don't think any Ravens fan or Falcons fan, makes excuses for their respective QB. We all might have lopsided views and down right foolish opinions of why one is better then the other at times, but that's only because Ravens fans see everything of Flacco and only see Ryan from a far. While Falcon fans see everything of Ryan and only see Flacco from a far.

The debate can and will go on for years. It won't matter what the media, fans, teams, organizations or even other players have to say, the only way either one or both of these guys will pull away from the pack is by winning big games. Neither one has won the biggest games yet, so they both have lots of work to do.

apologizes for the long post, it just kind of ran away from me a bit.
[/quote]
im not goin to lie i didnt read most of ur post, but im not giving Ryan any credit i wouldnt give flacco to be honest im not ahuge ryan fan so i wouldnt be biased in anyway, id lean more towards flacco actually

[BmoreRaised]

[quote name='SpeedKills' timestamp='1305631685' post='687405']
He sat behind Bledsoe a year before he got his chance. I consider that a slow start because no one knew what he could do yet, and to have a fast start you have to come in from year one and make a big impact. See?
[/quote]
sitting behind someone for a year and comin in and winning right from the time u start isnt considered slow

[BmoreRaised]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' timestamp='1305648246' post='687469']
What the heck do you mean "it doesn't work that way"?

We're talking about football, a [i]team game[/i]. Not every comeback win ends with the QB leading his team down the field and throwing a touchdown as time expires. At times, a clutch effort can be squandered by your fellow teammates. And sadly, we've seen that happen with Joe a number of times in his career so far.

I made no mention of the Steelers game in my post so I have no idea why you're asking me what game I watched. But since you brought it up, I saw Flacco miss wide open players in that game as well. But I, like everyone else, also saw Boldin and Houshmandzadeh drop two pinpoint passes.

I remember that Colts game as well. Joe's late interception was a killer but what [i]still[/i] irritates me is that the o-line couldn't generate enough push on three consecutive downs within the 2-yard line to allow the ball-carrier to score on the offense's second-to-last possession.

The Chiefs game aside, Joe hasn't put the team on his back in the play-offs. That can't be denied. However, I challenge you find to many QBs that carried their teams in their rookie, second or third seasons.

It's fair to be critical of Flacco but I'm not going to expect of him something that few have done period. Next season will be a different matter though.
[/quote]
im talking from the stand point of flacco and what he has done to be considered clutch?
yes its quite obviously its a team game but flacco hasnt shown me anything as far as being clutch goes(in playoffs) it almost seems like flacco gets nervous when he plays the steelers,did anyone see him on the sidelines that game? he looks like a nervous wreck

A clutch player is when ur game elevates in pressure situations and flacco simply doesnt most of the time.please dont bring up games i alrdy know about like the first game against pitts or the falcons gam etc i alrdy know

[ravensdfan]

[quote name='BmoreRaised' timestamp='1305891546' post='688818']
we were leading yes but flaccos performance was bad and could be considered horrible we were winning 21 to 10 off a td from our defense as well

playing with injuries is something every NfL player goes through bringing up injury is just an excuse
[/quote]

Flacco also did not drop a perfectly thrown TD pass to Boldin nor a perfectly thrown pass that would have kept the final drive alive to Housh. Heap had a drop in there as well and I believe Dickson early on. I guess he is supposed to catch the ball as well.

[Ravensfan23]

[quote name='BmoreRaised' timestamp='1305891906' post='688819']
im not goin to lie i didnt read most of ur post, but im not giving Ryan any credit i wouldnt give flacco to be honest im not ahuge ryan fan so i wouldnt be biased in anyway, id lean more towards flacco actually
[/quote]

That's exactly my point. Your not a huge Matt Ryan fan but you are a Flacco fan. So in leaning towards Flacco, you have a biased view on the comparison between both QBs. Why, because in certain situations you'll be harder on Flacco. Like the playoff lost to the Steelers.

Did he play great? No, but if anyone says his teammates didn't fail him in that game they'd be foolish. Because as a fan you have some much emotion tied into the Ravens, in that situation it's easy to say, Flacco just can't get it done.

While in the same situation viewing Ryan from a far, and viewing his playoff failures as, Matt Ryan just needs better weapons around him.

The same thing Matt Ryan experienced in the playoff loss, was the same thing Flacco had to deal with. #1 WR double covered and the rest of your WRs couldn't create separation or get open often.

[BmoreRaised]

[quote name='Ravensfan23' timestamp='1305895614' post='688827']
That's exactly my point. Your not a huge Matt Ryan fan but you are a Flacco fan. So in leaning towards Flacco, you have a biased view on the comparison between both QBs. Why, because in certain situations you'll be harder on Flacco. Like the playoff lost to the Steelers.

Did he play great? No, but if anyone says his teammates didn't fail him in that game they'd be foolish. Because as a fan you have some much emotion tied into the Ravens, in that situation it's easy to say, Flacco just can't get it done.

While in the same situation viewing Ryan from a far, and viewing his playoff failures as, Matt Ryan just needs better weapons around him.

The same thing Matt Ryan experienced in the playoff loss, was the same thing Flacco had to deal with. #1 WR double covered and the rest of your WRs couldn't create separation or get open often.
[/quote]as I see what you're saying it still doesnt change my view i would not go harsh on Flacco just because I'm biased.

as some people forget Flacco is adjusting from spread offense so im notharsh on him at all but that doesnt take away from his criticism.I consider Flacco top 10 to 12 QB's in the league and I still think Flacco has more upside especially when he learns to break down defenses at line of scrimmage and as I said coming from a spread offense he didnt have to do that its a different beast in the NFL I love Joe's upside!

[Ravensfan23]

[quote name='BmoreRaised' timestamp='1305891546' post='688818']
we were leading yes but flaccos performance was bad and could be considered horrible we were winning 21 to 10 off a td from our defense as well

playing with injuries is something every NfL player goes through bringing up injury is just an excuse
[/quote]

Yes we were winning 21-7 off a TD from our defense. But without that TD would are still winning 14-7. If the defense doesn't allow a TD in the first place we are winning 14-0, so what's the point. The defense gets paid to make game changing plays just like the offense gets paid to score.

The Ravens got behind in that game 24-21, after what could be considered the worse 3rd quarter in playoff history. Yet, after that terrible 3rd quarter, after all of those frustrating feeling of losing to the Steelers in tight games we should have won, after having a go ahead TD taken away from you on a questionable holding call, Flacco still drove this team downfield and made the throw he needed to make with 4 minutes left that would have given the Ravens a 28-24 lead, but Boldin dropped the ball.

You can breakdown and dissect that game all you want, but the fact is the Ravens as a whole lost that game, and Flacco being clutch had nothing to do with it. Because if Boldin holds onto that pass, if the defense gets off the field on 3rd and 19, the Ravens probably win that game.

At that point the story would have been, with all that went wrong, Flacco lives up to the name of Joe Cool, while throwing a game winning TD to defeat the Steelers for a second time on their homefield. We win that game and nobody is talking about the poor performance from Flacco, because that is how those Ravens/Steelers games go. You never hear how poor Ben actually plays against the Ravens defense, you always hear how he just finds a way to beat the Ravens, why, because the players around him make plays to win the game.

[Ravensfan23]

[quote name='BmoreRaised' timestamp='1305896290' post='688831']
as I see what you're saying it still doesnt change my view i would not go harsh on Flacco just because I'm biased.

as some people forget Flacco is adjusting from spread offense so im notharsh on him at all but that doesnt take away from his criticism.I consider Flacco top 10 to 12 QB's in the league and I still think Flacco has more upside especially when he learns to break down defenses at line of scrimmage and as I said coming from a spread offense he didnt have to do that its a different beast in the NFL I love Joe's upside!
[/quote]

Yet you don't feel Joe will be a great QB? You consider Flacco a top 10-12 QB in the NFL, and I agree. Then you say, he has tremendous upside and will get better once he fully develops which I agree with. However before you said he wouldn't be a great QB.

So if he's top 10-12 right now, wouldn't his upside propel him into that top 5-7 QB level, if not beyond? Is that not great?

Then you just said, you'd lean towards Flacco actually. However before you said Matt Ryan would be a better QB and has more upside, and Joe wouldn't be as good as Ryan.

[quote]At the end of the day this is a completely pointless conversation to be having with you, or anyone else. [b]Time will ultimately decide who is right,I think Matt Ryan is a better QB and will have a greater career[/b]. It seems every person here disagrees with that; I'm sure it has nothing to do with bias. While at the same time I think Joe Flacco is a solid QB, who is fails to preform in big games; while it seems that just about everyone else in this forum believes he can do no wrong; all of you being so quick to lay blame on Cam Cameron, the Oline, and the receivers, but never Flacco, almost everyone here thinking he is gonna be an elite QB. But, We will see who is correct, and don't be so surprised if its not you.[/quote]

So if Matt Ryan is a better QB and have a greater career, why would you lean more towards Flacco?

[BmoreRaised]

[quote name='Ravensfan23' timestamp='1305897390' post='688834']
Yet you don't feel Joe will be a great QB? You consider Flacco a top 10-12 QB in the NFL, and I agree. Then you say, he has tremendous upside and will get better once he fully develops which I agree with. However before you said he wouldn't be a great QB.

So if he's top 10-12 right now, wouldn't his upside propel him into that top 5-7 QB level, if not beyond? Is that not great?

Then you just said, you'd lean towards Flacco actually. However before you said Matt Ryan would be a better QB and has more upside, and Joe wouldn't be as good as Ryan.



So if Matt Ryan is a better QB and have a greater career, why would you lean more towards Flacco?
[/quote]
Is that really a question?I mean seriously are you goin to try and tell me how i come up with my conclusion on my accessment of both of these QB's?\

and secondly I said lean towards flacco as wishful thinking I never said I wouldd be biased towards Flacco if I truly was I would have said Flacco was better,but I do feel Ryan has the slight edge right now.

I thought being that Flacco is my teams QB that would be obvious on why i lean towards him

[BmoreRaised]

[quote name='Ravensfan23' timestamp='1305897390' post='688834']
Yet you don't feel Joe will be a great QB? You consider Flacco a top 10-12 QB in the NFL, and I agree. Then you say, he has tremendous upside and will get better once he fully develops which I agree with. However before you said he wouldn't be a great QB.

So if he's top 10-12 right now, wouldn't his upside propel him into that top 5-7 QB level, if not beyond? Is that not great?

Then you just said, you'd lean towards Flacco actually. However before you said Matt Ryan would be a better QB and has more upside, and Joe wouldn't be as good as Ryan.



So if Matt Ryan is a better QB and have a greater career, why would you lean more towards Flacco?
[/quote]
and when did i say flacco would never be a great QB? u mixing Vodka with ur coffee this morning? please copy and paste my words when i said flacco would never be a great qb

[BmoreRaised]

I think u got my posts mixed up with someone elses

[flynismo]

The title of this thread should have stopped at 'Flacco superior to Ryan'.Flacco is better. Period.

[BmoreRaised]

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1305900043' post='688844']
The title of this thread should have stopped at 'Flacco superior to Ryan'.Flacco is better. Period.
[/quote]


If you really think its a no brainer maybe u woke up with vodka in ur coffee its really close actually.I could see if the argument was Flacco vs Dilfer,but really how is it clearly Flacco? because hes been to playoffs 3 times. Ryan had more 4th quarter comeback wins last year and the year before his team had a 9 and 7 record and didnt make playoffs same record as ours,just the way the cookie crumbled for them.

The Falcons drafted him 4th overall and the following year he took them to the playoffs and lost against Cardinals he also won Offensive Rookie Of The Year,He's been to the playoffs 2 of his 3 years its not that unanimous

[flynismo]

,[quote name='BmoreRaised' timestamp='1305903909' post='688855']<br />If you really think its a no brainer maybe u woke up with vodka in ur coffee its really close actually.I could see if the argument was Flacco vs Dilfer,but really how is it clearly Flacco? because hes been to playoffs 3 times. Ryan had more 4th quarter comeback wins last year and the year before his team had a 9 and 7 record and didnt make playoffs same record as ours,just the way the cookie crumbled for them.<br /><br />The Falcons drafted him 4th overall and the following year he took them to the playoffs and lost against Cardinals he also won Offensive Rookie Of The Year,He's been to the playoffs 2 of his 3 years its not that unanimous<br />[/quote]


of course it's not that clear cut. But since 98% of the NFL community are Ryan nut huggers who try to claim Ryan is unquestionably better, I figure I'm going to start a Flacco hugging club of my own and just make claims that Flacco is better and ignore all evidence to the contrary.,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

[Ravensfan23]

[quote name='BmoreRaised' timestamp='1305897999' post='688839']
I think u got my posts mixed up with someone elses
[/quote]

You are correct, i did get your post confused with Bmoresun, my apologizes.