Flacco Superior To Ryan In The Clutch

[Free Agent]

[quote name='darklight1216' timestamp='1305398456' post='686288']
I doubt it. Even if those things happen (and with Cam Cameron's game plan and the Raven's o-line it probably won't) Ryan will still play in a dome for at least nine games next season and he won't play the Pittsburgh Steelers (or Cincy Bengals for that matter).
[/quote]

True, but he'll have to face the New Orleans Saints and the rising Tampa Bay Buccaneers. Its not the AFC North, but Ryan has some challenges within his division.

I think Joe can succeed this year. He has Torrey Smith and Tandon Doss, and Ozzie wants to make the offense Joe's offense. I believe that this will be the year Joe proves that he is a great QB, greater than Matt Ryan.

[atljbo]

[quote name='Ravensfan23' timestamp='1305464558' post='686482']
Again like I said, because Ryan is viewed as over-hyped (in my opinion) doesn't make it a knock against him. See that's where the fan in you comes out at, I mention something about Ryan, you view it in a negative light and immediately defend Ryan by saying Flacco is also over-hyped.Which is cool, but if anyone views Ryan or Flacco as elite right now they are over-hyping them. That playoff record of Flacco's gets over-hyped. So it goes both ways, the statement was just made that Ryan is over-hyped and I agree. That doesn't make Flacco better then him.

Some talking heads are really good at what they do, others are not. When it all boils down to it, their all just like us, people with opinions.

Fly I also thought that Flacco would be the overall best QB taken out of that draft and it was well before the draft. I had the opportunity to watch 5 of Flacco's college games, and even though they were against Delaware St, Towson, Navy, Southern Illinois, and App St, I came away extremely impressed and thought without a doubt he would be much better then the likes of Brohm, Woodson, and Henne. The Matt Ryan comparison was tough for me, because as a Florida State fan, I watched a lot of him and while i thought he was over-hyped at BC, he still was going to be a really good NFL QB.

The biggest thing that made me like Flacco more and more over Ryan as the draft got closer, was that Flacco was slightly more athletic then Ryan, despite being bigger. Also from the games i was able to watch of Flacco, he made much better decisions overall then Ryan did, although he played lesser talent.

Ultimately what made me thing that Flacco was going to be the best QB in that draft after about 5 years or so, was that coming out of college, I saw both Ryan's and Flacco's floor as about even, however I still saw so much potential for Flacco to get even better. Ryan imo was a guy that was as finished of a product coming out of college as you'd get. So I thought, what you see from Ryan now, it what you'd see for years, he'd just get more consistent. With Flacco, even though he's come into the NFL and had great success, I though then and still think now, that he'll continue to learn and develop at that QB position over a 4 year span, and then take off. Each year he's gotten better and better, so we'll see how it plays out.
[/quote]


No... its no argument... Like i said.. I understand why some raven fans feel like that... I was just saying my opinion..

With QB's ...Its hard to determine true upside... I used to think upside for a QB is how big a QB's arm is or how fast he is but if you really look at it... The 4 best QB's to play this game could be the 4 worst athletes in NFL history (that statement maybe over doing it but you get what im saying) ...lol.. Dan Marino, Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, and Joe Montana.. Bow tome upside for a QB is how Cerebral a QB can get.. You can hide flaws..Like great pocket presences for not not being athletic.. Most question Brady and Manning arm strength... With great timing on their throws... You dont hear that in the NFL... Most felt like Manning tapped out all his potential in college.

Mt point is... I feel like Flacco and Ryan has untapped potential... I just feel like both are on 2 separate side of the tracks... Flacco has all the physical tools...Those type guys seem to rely more on their physical skills.... Ryan is more cerebral... Even tho i think he is sneaky athletic... He has great pocket presence and anticipation for a young guy.

It all depends on what you like... Flacco big arm will be able to make some bullet throws Ryan cant make.... Ryan will be able mind game D's like Flacco cant... It all depends on the system they play in (if it plays to their strengths) and what you prefer.

Manning is great but so is Elway... Big Ben is great but so is Aikmen ... It all depends on what you like

My point is...

[justifythegame]

those stats are skewed. clutch means your ability to win the game, period, not that stats. the most clutch qb in the game today is Big Ben, and ben isn't known for his stats. and even if his stats aren't great, ben will use his feet to make a play or somehow get the win.

i'm a ravens fan, but i watch a lot of football cuz i get every game, and watching matt ryan when the game is on the line and watching joe flacco is completely different. if you want to pull out stats, completions, tds and call joe flacco more clutch you are being a total homer and not objective at all. I don't like Matt Ryan because he is boring, he throws 5 yards passes all the way down the field while his WRs do all the work, but there is no doubt in my mind that he will win you a game over flacco. the falcons ravens game itself is proof, and i don't see how most ravens fans didn't see it. the falcons d isn't a good d, thats what ryan had to work with the last 3 seasons. while flacco had the ravens d. but in that game ryan was the one who was clutch and won the game...thats the only thing that matters at the end of the day. There is no sense arguing what flacco would've should've could've or what his stats were at a particular point in time. The only thing that matters is the comeback WIN.

[berad]

[quote name='justifythegame' timestamp='1305477387' post='686529']
those stats are skewed. clutch means your ability to win the game, period, not that stats. the most clutch qb in the game today is Big Ben, and ben isn't known for his stats. and even if his stats aren't great, ben will use his feet to make a play or somehow get the win.

i'm a ravens fan, but i watch a lot of football cuz i get every game, and watching matt ryan when the game is on the line and watching joe flacco is completely different. if you want to pull out stats, completions, tds and call joe flacco more clutch you are being a total homer and not objective at all.[/quote]

Statistics are inherently objective. You may only "care" about wins but it is not the only thing that defines a QB.

[quote name='justifythegame' timestamp='1305477387' post='686529']
I don't like Matt Ryan because he is boring, he throws 5 yards passes all the way down the field while his WRs do all the work, but there is no doubt in my mind that he will win you a game over flacco. the falcons ravens game itself is proof, and i don't see how most ravens fans didn't see it. the falcons d isn't a good d, thats what ryan had to work with the last 3 seasons. while flacco had the ravens d. but in that game ryan was the one who was clutch and won the game...thats the only thing that matters at the end of the day. There is no sense arguing what flacco would've should've could've or what his stats were at a particular point in time. The only thing that matters is the comeback WIN.
[/quote]

Please don't use that Falcons game as an argument. If anything, it serves in Flacco's favor - leading a furious second-half comeback and throwing a lead-taking TD with 1:05 left. It was one of the games that Ozzie Newsome specifically pointed out as a bright indication of Flacco's future.

And I'm not sure what the teams' defense has to do with either Flacco or Ryan's progression. Kyle Boller had an excellent defense but he still failed - same could be said of every Ravens QB between 2001 and 2007.

[atljbo]

[quote name='berad' timestamp='1305478244' post='686533']



Please don't use that Falcons game as an argument. If anything, it serves in Flacco's favor - leading a furious second-half comeback and throwing a lead-taking TD with 1:05 left. It was one of the games that Ozzie Newsome specifically pointed out as a bright indication of Flacco's future.

And I'm not sure what the teams' defense has to do with either Flacco or Ryan's progression. Kyle Boller had an excellent defense but he still failed - same could be said of every Ravens QB between 2001 and 2007.
[/quote]

So a game Matt Ryan won... Serves in Flacco's favor ?

How is that possible... I mean I can understand if you say... Give Flacco some credit for the come back... But serves in Flacco's favor ?

[justifythegame]

[quote name='berad' timestamp='1305478244' post='686533']
Statistics are inherently objective. You may only "care" about wins but it is not the only thing that defines a QB.

[/quote]

What does this have to do with anything? The topic isn't about defining Flacco, nor did i try to "define" him. The topic was on comparing the 2 QBs and how clutch they were. I'm sure as a fanboy its hard for you to hear something you don't want to hear, but that doesn't mean you should go out if your way to argue whats trivial compared to the topic being debated, that just shows how desperate you are to create an argument.

[quote name='berad' timestamp='1305478244' post='686533']
Please don't use that Falcons game as an argument. If anything, it serves in Flacco's favor - leading a furious second-half comeback and throwing a lead-taking TD with 1:05 left. It was one of the games that Ozzie Newsome specifically pointed out as a bright indication of Flacco's future.

And I'm not sure what the teams' defense has to do with either Flacco or Ryan's progression. Kyle Boller had an excellent defense but he still failed - same could be said of every Ravens QB between 2001 and 2007.
[/quote]

The Falcons game is a prime example. Flacco couldn't get the job done against the Falcons defense for 3 quarters while Ryan did against the Ravens defense. While is attempt at a comeback at the end of the game is admirable, he didn't get the job done. Again like i said, arguing that he scored the TD with 1 min left in the game doesn't change the fact he didn't win. Thats what it comes down to, wins and losses. If this was a superbowl game, no one would be talking about how flacco scored a TD with 1 min left on the clock, they would be talking about how Matt Ryan has a ring. Guys like Brady and big ben aren't defined as "clutch" because of the stats they put up in the last 2 mins of the 2nd and 4th quarter, its because of all the memorable comeback wins they had...including SBs. Even an elite player like peyton manning is the best at what he does not only because of his stats but because the man knows how to work the clock. He would've tried to work even that minute left on the clock so there was no chance of a comeback. Matt Ryan came back with a TOUCHDOWN with 1 MIN left on the clock AGAINST the ravens defense to WIN the game, if thats not clutch then i don't know what is. Joe Flacco put in the same situation 2 years ago against the vikings didn't score the TD to win the game and had to settle for a FG which was missed. Thats the fundamental difference between the two. There is no sense arguing what he did id he didn't win the game. There is only 2 times Flacco was truly clutch and that was the steelers game this year and the chiefs game last year, you can't call a person clutch based off those 2 games...but thats not even the argument here, you arguing he is MORE clutch than Ryan.

[berad]

[quote name='atljbo' timestamp='1305479294' post='686535']
So a game Matt Ryan won... Serves in Flacco's favor ?

How is that possible... I mean I can understand if you say... Give Flacco some credit for the come back... But serves in Flacco's favor ?
[/quote]

I didn't say it detracted from Ryan. I was essentially saying the fact that Ryan and the Falcons were able to drive 80 yards for a score on our defense in under a minute does not take away from how "clutch" Joe Flacco and our team was.

By that logic, if our defense comes up with a stop [i](like it had numerous opportunities to)[/i], Joe Flacco becomes more clutch? That's not right. The offense had put the team in a position to win the game with 1:05 left but the defense couldn't close it out.

[izvoodoo]

[quote name='Free Agent' timestamp='1305464771' post='686483']
True, but he'll have to face the New Orleans Saints and the rising Tampa Bay Buccaneers. Its not the AFC North, but Ryan has some challenges within his division.

I think Joe can succeed this year. He has Torrey Smith and Tandon Doss, and Ozzie wants to make the offense Joe's offense. I believe that this will be the year Joe proves that he is a great QB, greater than Matt Ryan.
[/quote]

Those are both offensive teams. So while his wins might be less, he will still have better numbers.

[berad]

[quote name='justifythegame' timestamp='1305479556' post='686538']
What does this have to do with anything? The topic isn't about defining Flacco, nor did i try to "define" him. The topic was on comparing the 2 QBs and how clutch they were. I'm sure as a fanboy its hard for you to hear something you don't want to hear, but that doesn't mean you should go out if your way to argue whats trivial compared to the topic being debated, that just shows how desperate you are to create an argument.[/quote]

What are you talking about? I'm arguing that Flacco is better in the clutch than you are giving him credit for, not that Ryan is terrible.

[quote name='justifythegame' timestamp='1305479556' post='686538']
The Falcons game is a prime example. Flacco couldn't get the job done against the Falcons defense for 3 quarters while Ryan did against the Ravens defense. While is attempt at a comeback at the end of the game is admirable, he didn't get the job done.[/quote]

Changing the argument. The only reason for a "comeback" was if you didn't get the job done earlier in the game.

[quote name='justifythegame' timestamp='1305479556' post='686538']
Again like i said, arguing that he scored the TD with 1 min left in the game doesn't change the fact he didn't win. Thats what it comes down to, wins and losses. If this was a superbowl game, no one would be talking about how flacco scored a TD with 1 min left on the clock, they would be talking about how Matt Ryan has a ring. Guys like Brady and big ben aren't defined as "clutch" because of the stats they put up in the last 2 mins of the 2nd and 4th quarter, its because of all the memorable comeback wins they had...including SBs.[/quote]

You bring up Brady and Roethlisberger, good point. And the Super Bowl, great point. In SB XLII, Brady scored to go ahead of the Giants with 2:45 left. The Giants, obviously, came back to win but it doesn't detract from how "clutch" Brady is.

Same thing with Roethlisberger, he had an opportunity, with almost two minutes left, to drive down the field and beat the Packers. He didn't but that doesn't make him any less of a clutch QB.

Neither of them won but neither of them are any less clutch, because of it...

[quote name='justifythegame' timestamp='1305479556' post='686538']
Even an elite player like peyton manning is the best at what he does not only because of his stats but because the man knows how to work the clock. He would've tried to work even that minute left on the clock so there was no chance of a comeback. Matt Ryan came back with a TOUCHDOWN with 1 MIN left on the clock AGAINST the ravens defense to WIN the game, if thats not clutch then i don't know what is. Joe Flacco put in the same situation 2 years ago against the vikings didn't score the TD to win the game and had to settle for a FG which was missed. Thats the fundamental difference between the two. There is no sense arguing what he did id he didn't win the game. There is only 2 times Flacco was truly clutch and that was the steelers game this year and the chiefs game last year, you can't call a person clutch based off those 2 games...but thats not even the argument here, you arguing he is MORE clutch than Ryan.
[/quote]

I'm not even making a comment on Ryan. And I'm not arguing that Flacco is more "clutch", the statistics say that Flacco performs better in the two minutes before the half/end of the game, the 4th quarter, and when his team is trailing. I don't have to argue that because the numbers say it for me.

So your reasoning is that the Ravens should've waited longer to score? That's faulty, NFL teams score when they can in that situation, with a TD needed - any coach will tell you that. You have to have faith that your defense can hold a lead. The Ravens [b]were[/b] milking the clock as best they could, when they got in the redzone - ATL called a timeout right before they scored.

And, again how is the MIN game a detriment to Flacco's clutch ability? He drove the team into FG range before handing it off to Rice and spiking the ball to stop the clock. If Hauschka makes the kick, Flacco becomes more clutch? And, if Vinatieri misses those kicks in the SB and playoffs, Tom Brady becomes less clutch?

Wins aren't the only metric.

[atljbo]

[quote name='berad' timestamp='1305479881' post='686541']
I didn't say it detracted from Ryan. I was essentially saying the fact that Ryan and the Falcons were able to drive 80 yards for a score on our defense in under a minute does not take away from how "clutch" Joe Flacco and our team was.

By that logic, if our defense comes up with a stop [i](like it had numerous opportunities to)[/i], Joe Flacco becomes more clutch? That's not right. The offense had put the team in a position to win the game with 1:05 left but the defense couldn't close it out.
[/quote]

I cant give a guy clutch credit and they loss.... I give Flacco credit for the come back attempt...

I never hear anyone talk about Kurt Warner was clutch for scoring a go ahead TD with 2 mins left on the clock... Big Ben scoring a game winning TD in a 2 min offense to win the game is clutch.

We are also forgeting Ryan did this against a top 10 D.

If anything... This game showed.. Ryan has to play great vs top teams to win .... Flacco or your team can make mistakes and still have a chance to win (that D)

[-Truth-]

[quote name='justifythegame' timestamp='1305479556' post='686538']
The Falcons game is a prime example. Flacco couldn't get the job done against the Falcons defense for 3 quarters while Ryan did against the Ravens defense. While is attempt at a comeback at the end of the game is admirable, he didn't get the job done. Again like i said, arguing that he scored the TD with 1 min left in the game doesn't change the fact he didn't win. Thats what it comes down to, wins and losses. If this was a superbowl game, no one would be talking about how flacco scored a TD with 1 min left on the clock, they would be talking about how Matt Ryan has a ring. Guys like Brady and big ben aren't defined as "clutch" because of the stats they put up in the last 2 mins of the 2nd and 4th quarter, its because of all the memorable comeback wins they had...including SBs. Even an elite player like peyton manning is the best at what he does not only because of his stats but because the man knows how to work the clock. He would've tried to work even that minute left on the clock so there was no chance of a comeback. Matt Ryan came back with a TOUCHDOWN with 1 MIN left on the clock AGAINST the ravens defense to WIN the game, if thats not clutch then i don't know what is. Joe Flacco put in the same situation 2 years ago against the vikings didn't score the TD to win the game and had to settle for a FG which was missed. Thats the fundamental difference between the two. There is no sense arguing what he did id he didn't win the game. There is only 2 times Flacco was truly clutch and that was the steelers game this year and the chiefs game last year, you can't call a person clutch based off those 2 games...but thats not even the argument here, you arguing he is MORE clutch than Ryan.
[/quote]
Let me get this straight. You're giving Tom Brady full credit for the two comeback wins in the SuperBowls, both of which would not have been possible without Adam Vinatieri. Yet when Flacco puts the Ravens in the position to win the game, following several 3rd down conversions on our to being within FG range, the loss falls squarely onto his shoulders? Vinatieri averaged 85% over those 2 Seasons, and obviously wasn't known for his ability to persevere in clutch situations until after those two memorable conversions. Steven Hauschka was 5 for 6 before his attempt. Both QBs had less than 2 minutes, with no timeouts. Yet the Ravens were, "settling," for a FG, while the Patriots weren't. That's simply laughable. Let me know how Flacco's supposed to work that minute when he's not allowed to audible before you compare him to Peyton Manning, who practically calls his own plays. Maybe he should've just scrambled around for half a minute. It's not like John Abraham spent half of the game in our backfield. Then again, that's Flacco's fault as well, right? I mean, if our Defense's performance falls on him, why shouldn't the Offensive Line's?

[atljbo]

[quote name='berad' timestamp='1305481936' post='686560']




I'm not even making a comment on Ryan. And I'm not arguing that Flacco is more "clutch", the statistics say that Flacco performs better in the two minutes before the half/end of the game, the 4th quarter, and when his team is trailing. I don't have to argue that because the numbers say it for me.



[/quote]


Matt Ryan 4th quarter TD/int ratio was 7 TD's to 3 ints (63.8%) .... Joe Flacco 4th quarter TD/int ratio was 4 TD's to 2 ints (63.2%)

[-Truth-]

[quote name='atljbo' timestamp='1305482135' post='686562']
I cant give a guy clutch credit and they loss.... I give Flacco credit for the come back attempt...

I never hear anyone talk about Kurt Warner was clutch for scoring a go ahead TD with 2 mins left on the clock... Big Ben scoring a game winning TD in a 2 min offense to win the game is clutch.

[b]We are also forgeting Ryan did this against a top 10 D.[/b]

If anything... This game showed.. Ryan has to play great vs top teams to win .... Flacco or your team can make mistakes and still have a chance to win (that D)
[/quote]
I have a feeling you'll have a hard time conveying this point on these forums, given that most members here give the majority of the credit for your win to the officiating. It's a touchy subject.

[berad]

[quote name='atljbo' timestamp='1305482409' post='686566']
Matt Ryan 4th quarter TD/int ratio was 7 TD's to 3 ints (63.8%) .... Joe Flacco 4th quarter TD/int ratio was 4 TD's to 2 ints (63.2%)
[/quote]

Yes, reviewing the stats, it looks like Ryan performed better in the 4th. You're right, I should've double-checked. I was just going off what the article in the OP said, my fault Not sure where they derived theirs...

Situational Stats:

[color="#FF0000"][url="http://www.nfl.com/players/mattryan/situationalstats?id=RYA238179"]Ryan[/url][/color]

[color="#800080"][url="http://www.nfl.com/players/joeflacco/situationalstats?id=FLA009602"]Flacco[/url][/color]

[Clutch Ravens]

[quote name='-Truth-' timestamp='1305482570' post='686569']
I have a feeling you'll have a hard time conveying this point on these forums, given that most members here give the majority of the credit for your win to the officiating. It's a touchy subject.
[/quote]

Ohh, it is.

Roddy White pushed Josh Wilson over right infront of me and, because of that, I lost ALL respect for White.

So, that game SHOULD do more for Flacco's repuation for being clutch, since he put us ahead with 1:05 left. If the officials hadn't let White FLAGRANTLY cheat then we win that game and people probably ackowledge Flacco's play in the clutch.

Edit: I also can't call anyone "Elite" or "Clutch" when they've lost both Playoff games they've participated in. It's a team game, but if Ryan is as good as he apparently is, then he SHOULD have been able to propel the Falcons to atleast 1 playoff victory.

[atljbo]

[quote name='-Truth-' timestamp='1305482570' post='686569']
I have a feeling you'll have a hard time conveying this point on these forums, given that most members here give the majority of the credit for your win to the officiating. It's a touchy subject.
[/quote]


If some want to say that ...ok ... Doesnt take away what Ryan did that game and he got the win... We have lost games where i felt the certain calls was ,ade that i didnt like... Vs the eagles in 98... We lost a game because the refs said our punt returner botched a punt return catch... instant reply showed our punt returner never touched the ball... Thats a real screw up..not a judgement call... I was pissed that week... but i got over it because regardless.. the eagles got a win.

Not trying to be an *** but Ryan won that game.. The crying over this and that should be over... The guy had a great game vs yall D... It seem like ppl used that call to not give the guy credit.

Every WR push off... Ive seen Boldin pushoff... Heck Michael Irvin made it an art form....

At the end of the day Flacco did what he did and Ryan did what he did... Ryan got the win.


[quote name='Clutch Ravens' timestamp='1305483418' post='686576']
Ohh, it is.

Roddy White pushed Josh Wilson over right infront of me and, because of that, I lost ALL respect for White.

So, that game SHOULD do more for Flacco's repuation for being clutch, since he put us ahead with 1:05 left. If the officials hadn't let White FLAGRANTLY cheat then we win that game and people probably ackowledge Flacco's play in the clutch.

Edit: I also can't call anyone "Elite" or "Clutch" when they've lost both Playoff games they've participated in. It's a team game, but if Ryan is as good as he apparently is, then he SHOULD have been able to propel the Falcons to atleast 1 playoff victory.
[/quote]

Seriously ... We was on the ravens 33 yard line.... 1st down with 27 seconds to go.. That points to you guys winning ?


A FG would have won the game for us.

Falcon fans could have cried about the questionable late hit on Matt Ryan (sliding) by Ed Reed..

I'm going to drop this game subject... Its going no where.... .

[flynismo]

[quote name='atljbo' timestamp='1305479294' post='686535']<br />So a game Matt Ryan won... Serves in Flacco's favor ?<br /><br />How is that possible... I mean I can understand if you say... Give Flacco some credit for the come back... But serves in Flacco's favor ?<br />[/quote]

yes, it does. Flacco puts us in perfect position to win the game. Is it his fault our defense (and a blatant PI by White) collapsed with just one minute left in the game?
If the defense doesn't collapse, then you're saying you'd give Flacco his due. But since the defense did lose the game for us, you won't?

Makes no sense.

[atljbo]

[quote name='berad' timestamp='1305483048' post='686572']
Yes, reviewing the stats, it looks like Ryan performed better in the 4th. You're right, I should've double-checked. I was just going off what the article in the OP said, my fault Not sure where they derived theirs...

Situational Stats:

[color="#FF0000"][url="http://www.nfl.com/players/mattryan/situationalstats?id=RYA238179"]Ryan[/url][/color]

[color="#800080"][url="http://www.nfl.com/players/joeflacco/situationalstats?id=FLA009602"]Flacco[/url][/color]
[/quote]

yea... ryans 2nd quarter stats is by far his worse for some reason... He has to fix that.. but yea.. his 2nd quarter 2 min offense has to improve



[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1305484572' post='686583']
yes, it does. Flacco puts us in perfect position to win the game. Is it his fault our defense (and a blatant PI by White) collapsed with just one minute left in the game?
If the defense doesn't collapse, then you're saying you'd give Flacco his due. But since the defense did lose the game for us, you won't?

Makes no sense.
[/quote]

if we are doing ifs... i can easily say if Roddy White didnt drop that easy 1st down catch with 3 mins to go.. We could have milked the clock and kicked a FG... Flacco would have never had a chance to go down the field for the win

You can if every loss and so cani... ijust give a guy his credit for winning tho... even if i dont like a call... its mu fault for putting the officials in charge to determine my game if i feel wronged.

[-Truth-]

[quote name='atljbo' timestamp='1305483852' post='686578']
If some want to say that ...ok ... Doesnt take away what Ryan did that game and he got the win... We have lost games where i felt the certain calls was ,ade that i didnt like... Vs the eagles in 98... We lost a game because the refs said our punt returner botched a punt return catch... instant reply showed our punt returner never touched the ball... Thats a real screw up..not a judgement call... I was pissed that week... but i got over it because regardless.. the eagles got a win.

Not trying to be an *** but Ryan won that game.. The crying over this and that should be over... The guy had a great game vs yall D... It seem like ppl used that call to not give the guy credit.

Every WR push off... Ive seen Boldin pushoff... Heck Michael Irvin made it an art form....

At the end of the day Flacco did what he did and Ryan did what he did... Ryan got the win.
[/quote]
Clutch's point was that an Offensive PI would've set you back 10 yards further. lol So this wasn't a real screw up? According to who? You? I was trying to be impartial, especially considering that we've argued about it for several pages some time ago, alongside of our Rodgers Vs Ryan debate. But do you really want to get into this again?

[atljbo]

[quote name='-Truth-' timestamp='1305485585' post='686590']
Clutch's point was that an Offensive PI would've set you back 10 yards further. lol So this wasn't a real screw up? According to who? You? I was trying to be impartial, especially considering that we've argued about it for several pages some time ago, alongside of our Rodgers Vs Ryan debate. But do you really want to get into this again?
[/quote]

Like i said before a couple of posts... Im done with the "that game argument" ... It can go on all day like it did in a past post... I will just say what happen and how the game ended... That argument is getting old


I dont see a Rodgers vs Ryan debate... Rodgers is the better QB right now... No question about that (that deosnt have anything to do with the probowl.. ive said since day one.. both should have made the probowl) ....

Ive never took anything from Flacco or what he's done... Heck i even said the guy is under-rated media wise and should have been over Freemen in the top 100 ()if it was up to ) ... So lets not kick it like im being 100% bias for Ryan.

[ed.s52]

I say the real problem is that ATL is arguing that RYAN won the game.

Ryan did not win the game. The Falcons won the game. White's flagrant PI should at least be given some credit.



The point that needs to be made is if, per say, White dropped that ball that was the game winning score and the Raven's won, that would not have changed the caliber at which Ryan performed. It would have be static, and yet people would still call it less than if White had caught the pass (which he did). The same could be said for Housh's drop at the end of the Steelers game or a numerous amount of other catches. Based on that logic (which is 100% correct I assure you), wins should not be the only determinent in how clutch a QB is. That is truthfully pretty stupid to determine how clutch a QB is by ONE PLAY.

Instead, how clutch a QB is should be derived from his actual performance rather than his wins/losses. If White did drop that pass, even though it was a flagrant PI, I'd still give Ryan the credit for throwing a good pass that should've won the game assuming the refs didnt call it.


And even though you guys were on the 33, the flagrant PI would've set back the Falcon's some and even if you remained at the 33 that's still a 50 yard field goal.

[atljbo]

[quote name='ed.s52' timestamp='1305486662' post='686598']
I say the real problem is that ATL is arguing that RYAN won the game.

Ryan did not win the game. The Falcons won the game. White's flagrant PI should at least be given some credit.



The point that needs to be made is if, per say, White dropped that ball that was the game winning score and the Raven's won, that would not have changed the caliber at which Ryan performed. It would have be static, and yet people would still call it less than if White had caught the pass (which he did). The same could be said for Housh's drop at the end of the Steelers game or a numerous amount of other catches. Based on that logic (which is 100% correct I assure you), wins should not be the only determinent in how clutch a QB is. That is truthfully pretty stupid to determine how clutch a QB is by ONE PLAY.

Instead, how clutch a QB is should be derived from his actual performance rather than his wins/losses. If White did drop that pass, even though it was a flagrant PI, I'd still give Ryan the credit for throwing a good pass that should've won the game assuming the refs didnt call it.


And even though you guys were on the 33, the flagrant PI would've set back the Falcon's some and even if you remained at the 33 that's still a 50 yard field goal.
[/quote]


I get what you are saying

Lets also not forget.. That play wasnt on a 3rd down.... It was on 1st down.. So we still had atleast 2 more downs to go...also Matt Bryant made a 51 yard kick earlier that game..Its a lot of if's tho.

But i honestly get what you are saying

[-Truth-]

[quote name='atljbo' timestamp='1305486491' post='686596']
Like i said before a couple of posts... Im done with the "that game argument" ... It can go on all day like it did in a past post... I will just say what happen and how the game ended... That argument is getting old


I dont see a Rodgers vs Ryan debate... Rodgers is the better QB right now... No question about that (that deosnt have anything to do with the probowl.. ive said since day one.. both should have made the probowl) ....

Ive never took anything from Flacco or what he's done... Heck i even said the guy is under-rated media wise and should have been over Freemen in the top 100 ()if it was up to ) ... So lets not kick it like im being 100% bias for Ryan.
[/quote]
I could care less what you've stated several posts ago. Although I've made it known how I feel regarding the situation long before, I approached this matter without any animosity, and made absolutely no attempt to assert this opinion as the righteous one. Yet you've decided to make a direct comment to my post, labeling the assessment I happen to strongly agree with, "crying," all while attempting to discredit it. Then you have the decency to announce that you're done with the discussion. It's like walking up to someone, slapping them in the face, and then telling them that the fight is over because it's meaningless. I'm only irate over being disrespected.

And why are we actually arguing about Rodgers and Ryan? I was using it as a reference point to help you recall our debate in case you couldn't remember our it, given that it was months ago, and the latter would've been understandable.

[atljbo]

[quote name='-Truth-' timestamp='1305487687' post='686613']
I could care less what you've stated several posts ago. Although I've made it known how I feel regarding the situation long before, I approached this matter without any animosity, and made absolutely no attempt to assert this opinion as the righteous one. Yet you've decided to make a direct comment to my post, labeling the assessment I happen to strongly agree with, "crying," all while attempting to discredit it. Then you have the decency to announce that you're done with the discussion. It's like walking up to someone, slapping them in the face, and then telling them that the fight is over because it's meaningless. I'm only irate over being disrespected.

And why are we actually arguing about Rodgers and Ryan? I was using it as a reference point to help you recall our debate in case you couldn't remember our it, given that it was months ago, and the latter would've been understandable.
[/quote]


Calm down...its no disrespect... Its not like that... I just know this can go on 10 pages... We've all had this discussion multiple times... I get what you think.... I'm sure you get what i think.

So its no disrespecting here..I havnt said anything disrespectful to anyone.. Its a MB.. I like discussing football with you guys... Its not that serious

[-Truth-]

[quote name='atljbo' timestamp='1305488200' post='686619']
Calm down...its no disrespect... Its not like that... I just know this can go on 10 pages... We've all had this discussion multiple times... I get what you think.... I'm sure you get what i think.

So its no disrespecting here..I havnt said anything disrespectful to anyone.. Its a MB.. I like discussing football with you guys... Its not that serious
[/quote]
Yeah, it's not that serious. I was just caught a little off guard since I did my best to avoid any flashbacks. Then again, this is a forum. Topics always have a way of resurfacing. I think my first comment shares a part of the blame for that.

[RavensAllTheWay]

Let's be honest, the Falcons won that game because they got the ball last. We got it with 20 seconds left, minus a few from a kickoff return. If we had scored with 20 seconds left, we would've won, but luckily for Ryan that wasn't the case. I'll agree that Ryan has shined in more clutch drives then Flacco, but partly because he's HAD more clutch drives than Flacco.

And I'm sorry, but let's not forget a few facts. It was Clayton who dropped a 4th down pass against NE after Joe led us down the field, it was Haushcka who missed a game winner after Joe led us down the field, it was Ryan who got the ball back with enough time to spoil our comeback and it was TJ who dropped one on fourth down in the playoffs. Yet more examples of how there is too much being put on a QBs shoulder. In a lot of instances, the difference between Matt and Joe comes down to who has the better supporting cast. Which supporting cast comes through with the game on the line?

[atljbo]

[quote name='-Truth-' timestamp='1305488782' post='686627']
Yeah, it's not that serious. I was just caught a little off guard since I did my best to avoid any flashbacks. Then again, this is a forum. Topics always have a way of resurfacing. I think my first comment shares a part of the blame for that.
[/quote]


its cool... just wanted it to be known it was no disrespect from my way or brushing you off... I just know that subject can be a endless subject.

[ellicottraven]

mgridda thank you for the article! Boy, am I glad we chose Flacco when we chose him! It is clear Joe Flacco based on teh debate's points alone wins going away... let us popularize the Joe Cool nickname and propagate it across the NFL!

[Bmoresun]

Matt Ryan is not only more Clutch than Flacco, he is a better QB. Joe Flacco might be one of the least clutch QB's i have seen in a while, he has consistently proven he cant perform in clutch situations, he puts up good stats against terrible teams, and then when he is asked to preform against formidable opponents WHEN IT COUNTS he turns into one of the worst QB's in the NFL.

Our offense single handedly lost us a shot at the AFC championship last season with Joe Flacco completing one of the most embarrassing QB performances i have ever witnessed against our division rivals.

Meanwhile, Matt Ryan led a far less talented team to the number one seed in the NFC, while in the process leading a clutch comeback against the ravens late in the fourth quarter.

Ryans 2010 ten stats are better than Flacco's; and it is my believe that Matt Ryan will take the next step in the 2011 season to becoming an elite QB with the addition of Julio Jones.

While Flacco will continue to squander great opportunities and put up decent stats.

[berad]

[quote name='Bmoresun' timestamp='1305491503' post='686653']
Matt Ryan is not only more Clutch than Flacco, he is a better QB. Joe Flacco might be one of the least clutch QB's i have seen in a while, he has consistently proven he cant perform in clutch situations, he puts up good stats against terrible teams, and then when he is asked to preform against formidable opponents WHEN I COUNTS he turns into one of the worst QB's in the NFL.

Our offense single handedly lost us a shot at the AFC championship last season with Joe Flacco completing one of the most embarrassing QB performances i have ever witnessed against our division rivals.

Meanwhile, Matt Ryan led a far less talented team to the number one seed in the NFC, while in the process leading a clutch comeback against the ravens late in the fourth quarter.

[b]Ryans 2010 ten stats are better than Flacco's; and it is my believe that Matt Ryan will take the next step in the 2011 season to becoming an elite QB with the addition of Julio Jones.
[/b]
While Flacco will continue to squander great opportunities and put up decent stats.
[/quote]

LOL that's not accurate. Maybe based on volume, alone, but factor in the yards/attempt and TD/attempt, Flacco is better. Ryan had more attempts than Flacco and that's why his total yards and touchdowns are higher.

And, to your point about Flacco only playing well against "terrible teams", I laid this out to a different poster in the blogs section and I'll re-post it here...

[quote]In seven regular season games against .500+ teams, Flacco was...

[i]145/232 (62.5%), 1731 yards, 7.46 yards/attempt 11 TDs, 4 INTs, and had a QB rating of 93.9.
[/i]
Factor in the two playoff games and his numbers look like...

[i]186/296 (62.8%), 2121 yards, 7.17 yards/attempt 14 TDs, 5 INTs, QB rating of 93.0
[/i]
Let's lay it out, in nine games against .500+/playoff teams, Flacco averaged...

[b]62.8 completion percentage, 235.7 yards/game, 7.17 yards/attempt, 1.56 TDs/game, 0.56 INTs/game, and of course with his QB rating of 93.0.
[/b]
Project that over a 16 game season and you get...

[b]~3770 yards, ~25 TDs, and ~9 INTs. Not too far off from his 2010 season total...
[/b]
I've seen you raise the point a couple of times so I decided to look into it. You may be mad about the overall outcome of some of those games but it's pretty difficult to be upset about Flacco's overall performance in them.[/quote]

QB rating of 93.0 versus teams above .500, including the playoffs.