Harbaugh's Dog House

[mgridda]

Here I wanted to get a discussion and a feel for who everyone thinks is in Harbaugh's Dog House, why they feel they're in there and if anyone feels that this is ultimately hindering the team or of if the discipline is ultimately benefiting the team.

We've seen what undisciplined teams do and honestly one of the greatest things to Harbaugh's credit is how our penalties went way down from 2009 to 2010 after Rex Ryan left. That's the one thing I disliked about Ryan. Harbaugh is also the type of guy - I remember in a mic'd after Ngata recovered a fumble he stopped him off the sideline and he asked, "You didn't do anything unseemly?" - who values character, hard work and good fair play.


It's no doubt that Bisciotti signed Harbaugh with the idea of cleaning up our name around the league and with officials. Harbaugh is that good guy type of coach who wants "Mighty mighty men."

Now this is an important moment. Look at Harbuagh and his response to Ellerbe's celebration in the 2010 pre season. I would say that's overreacting to that one specific episode, so I would imagine that there is some unseen history there and that's not the whole story:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SwXNLqh8Ou4

Yeah, I'd have to say that Harbaugh has probably chewed him out before for doing "something unseemly" either in practice or training camp. He probably had him come into Harbaugh's office a few times, too. I think Antwan Barnes was also in Harbaugh's dog house.

I think Paul Kruger is in Harbaugh's dog house because off his response to playing special teams. I think the Ravens can tell not that he won't outright refuse to play special teams, but that in the regular defense he brings 110% and then he tries to escape being on the special teams roster or only goes 50% on special teams plays. So I think that put him in the whole coaching staff's dog house.

Of course this is all just speculation.

Harbaugh's Dog House:

[quote]
Paul Kruger
Dannell Ellerbe
Jared Gaither
[/quote]

[mgridda]

Also, this article makes some assertions:

http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/sports/ravens/blog/2010/09/ellerbers_showboating_was_embarrassing.html
[quote]
Ellerbe's showboating was embarrassing

After watching linebacker Dannell Ellerbe showboat on the interception return, I think we now know why he doesn't start over Jameel McClain. There has been speculation that Ellerbe's head got too big last season once he became the starter, and the Ravens made him the No. 2 linebacker to keep his ego in check. -- Mike Preston [/quote]

I don't like Mike Preston one bit, but Ellerbe played in 13 games and started 3 in 2009. In 2010 he looked he even better but he only played in 11 games and started only 1.


He also moved from ILB (where I thought he was great) to OLB (where I thought McClain was better). Regardless, the Ravens were primarily (in their base packages) in a 4-3 and not in a 3-4.

So when we do 4-3 it's Suggs-Ngata-Gregg-Redding at DE and McClain-Lewis-Johnson at LB.

When we do 3-4 it's Ngata-Gregg-Redding at DE and Suggs-McClain-Lewis-Johnson at LB.

Maybe McClain is just more versatile?

[Ravens Lover]

Harbs attitude about this stuff is my favorite thing about him, it gives the team a better name and provides us with less distraction. You compare how we are to the Bungles with Lewis nuf said right there

[big hits and ball hawks]

I don't think Harbaugh was necessarily yelling about what Ellerbe did when he scored but more about what he did around 45 yards before scoring. Sticking the ball out like that, even with two hands, is stupid. So, in my opinion, I don't think Harbaugh was overreacting too much, but I'm not arguing that he doesn't have a doghouse. I, personally, can neither confirm nor deny that he has a doghouse but it seems as though he does. I didn't vote though because I'm not sure if it helps or hurts. It could easily be argued either way.

[Free Agent]

(This is a repost of what I posted in the Antwan Barnes thread):

I couldnt believe Ellerbe didnt get his deserved playing time in the 2010 regular season. I fell in love with his play at the end of 2009, and I was eager to see him play in 2010. There are so many other boneheads in the NFL that do far worse stuff than Ellerbe and still get to play. He was by far our best option next to Ray and we didnt play him. I was so disappointed

[RL52TheGreatest]

I think in the case of Ellerbe, Harbs' so-called "doghouse" actually hurt the team more than it helped. The Ravens had some trouble stopping the run in the beginning of the season and I think Ellerbe could have helped alleviate some of that since most would agree, he's a better ILB than McClain.

I do think, however, that it's better for the team in the long run. I don't mind the players celebrating after making a huge play, but don't go overboard with it. Play the game the right way and with class. Harbaugh's made this team much more disciplined now and it's nice to see us not get penalized all game long like we have in the past.

[bpytnjr58]

If he has a Dog House then a certain OC should have been in it a lot.

[Bltravens]

Preston wasnt the only one to write an article like that, so I tend to believe it, Ellerbe isnt exactly a good body guy which suggests he doesnt do hardcore training like most guys on our team. He was also reported to be an awful, awful practice player something Harbaugh despises and something I can understand as the son of a coach. As for Kruger, he never said he wouldnt play special teams, its just understood that he has never done it and is basically no good at it and Kruger is a situational player. Its tough to constantly dress a guy for 5 or 6 snaps when he takes a penalty a game on special teams.

Does Harbaugh have a dog house? Tough to say, I dont think he does anything out of his way to sit guys down. Really when you look at it, do any of our starters show boat like that in a pre season game? Stopping before the goal line...in a game played strictly with backups? Its not like Ellerbe is a quiet guy, hard working guy like Jameel is.

[purple.n.black]

I think in the short run, it sucks. Like has been said, Ellerbe could have helped us a lot. But I think it keeps our players showing pride because of fear of the doghouse.

[scrock]

IT was obvious Harbaugh had a few players he had some problems with, thats why Ellerbe went from starting to not even being active on gameday at point last year.

Maybe coach is trying to prove a point, well make your point and move on for the better of the team. I think he hurt us with his doghouse at points last year.

[Milton145]

He didn't do anything worth making him get suspended or go to jail so Harbaugh is overreacting IMO. Yes it was a bonehead move, but every team has their boneheads yet they still play them and they still make plays so why make a big deal out of Ellerbe? If he has a thickhead, fine. As long as he stays out of legal trouble and can back up his boneheaded antics with his superb play, I really don't see the problem. Some people are just born cocky. Nothing wrong with that. As long as they can back it up.

Also, with Kruger "refusing" to play special teams, I understand if they put him in the doghouse for refusing to do as the coaches asked. But all I'm saying is Kruger shows up when he gets his time on the field so I'm also kind of in support of Kruger...slightly. If he feels he can make a bigger impact than special teams then fine, because at least he shows up when he gets time on defense. Dude is ferocious with the pass rush.

[PurpleGreek]

harbaugh is a head coach. as a head coach, he needs to be a leader. part of being a leader is commanding respect while another part is earning affinity. harbaugh should leave his emotions in his office and have someone else be the "bad guy" when someone [i]<screwed>[/i] up on the field. he can then have a teachable moment with the offending player in the privacy of his office.

in other words, a lot of our guys are young & stupid... too young & too stupid to see the big picture -- the opportunity to actualize themselves while earning enough money to support themselves for a lifetime and doing so on an international public stage.

i like harbs...i don't like his coaching style and i don't think he understands what it means to be a leader.

and i'm available if he reads this and decides he needs to speak with me!

GO BALTIMORE.

[FerrariFan87]

Harbaugh definitely has a "doghouse," just ask Chris McAlister... but I don't think it affects our team's performance as I believe the best players are on the field.

[K-Dog]

Class and character says a LOT. I would take a clean classy win over an ugly classless win any day.
There is much to be said about the word PROFESSIONAL in the word professional athlete.

[berad]

Chris McAlister, Willis McGahee, Jared Gaither Dannell Ellerbe, and Antwan Barnes... Those are the names that come to mind in reference to the "doghouse". All those guys have one thing in common: poor work ethic and a bad attitude/ego [i](reportedly)[/i].

I don't know if he has a "doghouse"... I think he'll play the best players but he bases that on performance on and off the field. Even if he does, players can rebound from it - look at McGahee, he's one of Harbs' favorite guys now. It just takes some hard work and an attitude adjustment.

And with the Ellerbe incident... I'm certain there's more to the story than that. Although Ellerbe was taunting and making a stupid play, it probably stemmed from something else.

[quote name='PurpleGreek' timestamp='1305066698' post='684795']
harbaugh is a head coach. as a head coach, he needs to be a leader. part of being a leader is commanding respect while another part is earning affinity. [b]harbaugh should leave his emotions in his office and have someone else be the "bad guy" when someone [i]<screwed>[/i] up on the field. he can then have a teachable moment with the offending player in the privacy of his office.[/b]
[/quote]

That's called being a softy and will get you bounced in a hot second. Ask Wade Phillips or Brian Billick, towards the end of his tenure. In a league where the players make as much as [i](if not more than)[/i] you, you pretty much have to be a hardbutt.

John Harbaugh's doing fine.

[Ed_Reed20]

I don't know what Ellerbe did to be inactive against the Dolphins but I think he deserved to be sat for a game after his performance against the Falcons. Not only did he loaf on Jason Snelling's TD, he got flagged for an illegal block when Webb fumbled and he drew a terrible penalty trying to cover Tony Gonzalez only 5 plays after that on 3rd down. As bad as that performance was though, I didn't think he needed to be inactive for 4 games.

Regarding Kruger, was it ever confirmed he refused to play special teams?

[mgridda]

I don't think that Kruger refused to play ST, just that he wouldn't give his notorious effort on ST and showed he's not good at it. So, the coaching staff didn't like that and like someone said couldn't justify dressing someone who only might play 15 snaps at most and wouldn't ever earn being on ST.

[Guest RBates]

Love that you tube video, exactly what you want out of your coach.
(Get your a-- over here)..lol. I can't stand a show off get the job done then show off if you must.

[Elmo]

[quote name='PurpleGreek' timestamp='1305066698' post='684795']
harbaugh is a head coach. as a head coach, he needs to be a leader. part of being a leader is commanding respect while another part is earning affinity. harbaugh should leave his emotions in his office and have someone else be the "bad guy" when someone [i]<screwed>[/i] up on the field. he can then have a teachable moment with the offending player in the privacy of his office.

in other words, a lot of our guys are young & stupid... too young & too stupid to see the big picture -- the opportunity to actualize themselves while earning enough money to support themselves for a lifetime and doing so on an international public stage.

i like harbs...i don't like his coaching style and i don't think he understands what it means to be a leader.

and i'm available if he reads this and decides he needs to speak with me!

GO BALTIMORE.
[/quote]

I had a boss like that once... Never yelled at anyone... God did me and my co-workers disrespect him... The stuff we pulled, just to try and see if we could push him over the edge, lol... In seriousness, this would probably be the worst suggestion ever... If you want respect as a leader, you gotta be willing to deal wirh things yourself right away, and you gotta demand of those you lead, that they follow you. When they do you show them who's boss... Right away and so EVERYONE knows....

[BloodRaven]

I don't like Harbaugh to be honest. I mean you can say what you want about Rex Ryan, but he treats his guys like equals and friends instead of underlings and employees and you see it when his guys are always batting for him wether it's on the field or in front of reporters. When our FA's can't wait to hit the open market the Jets FA's are begging to go back.

If a prime CMac and Frank Walker were both on the team right now Harbaugh would start Walker and cut CMac.

[Bullrush]

The video isn't anything special. Every other headcoach would have done exactly the same thing. From Rex Ryan, Mike Tomlin to Tony Dungy. And those are your typical players coaches. The difference is that they don't have a dog house. When you mess up under a Rex Ryan he'll let you know and chew you out for sure, but you'd be on the field again the next play. That's the key thing. Harbaugh, Mangini etc. will have you benched for the rest of the year.

He keeps talking about not pointing fingers. Well, he does that all the time. We've seen so many players go in his doghouse, most never came out. Also every year we're in the top 3 I believe in terms of getting flagged. Nothing changed, his so called leadership surely didn't affect the players.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='Bullrush' timestamp='1305132196' post='685091']
The video isn't anything special. Every other headcoach would have done exactly the same thing. From Rex Ryan, Mike Tomlin to Tony Dungy. And those are your typical players coaches. [b]The difference is that they don't have a dog house. When you mess up under a Rex Ryan he'll let you know and chew you out for sure, but you'd be on the field again the next play. That's the key thing.[/b] Harbaugh, Mangini etc. will have you benched for the rest of the year.
[/quote]

I think Rashard Mendenhall, Kyle Wilson and Joe McKnight would disagree.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='Bullrush' timestamp='1305132196' post='685091']
The video isn't anything special. Every other headcoach would have done exactly the same thing. From Rex Ryan, Mike Tomlin to Tony Dungy. And those are your typical players coaches. The difference is that they don't have a dog house. When you mess up under a Rex Ryan he'll let you know and chew you out for sure, but you'd be on the field again the next play. That's the key thing. Harbaugh, Mangini etc. will have you benched for the rest of the year.

[b]He keeps talking about not pointing fingers. Well, he does that all the time. We've seen so many players go in his doghouse, most never came out. Also every year we're in the top 3 I believe in terms of getting flagged. Nothing changed, his so called leadership surely didn't affect the players.[/b]
[/quote]

Which players never came out of his doghouse?

As for the team's rankings in penalties, not really. The Ravens were among the top three in penalties drawn in '08 and and last season but not in '09. And I'd venture to say the majority of those were penalties drawn in coverage. "Leadership" isn't going to help you draw less flags in those situations. Either you can cover, or you can't and we've seen a lot of bad coverage from the LBs and CBs since Harbaugh took over. That's probably something else naysayers will dump on him but that's just narrow-minded.

[SpeedKills]

Does Harbaugh have a doghouse? Yes. Does it hurt the team in the short-term? Yes, to an extent. Does it help in the long-run? Yes. By sticking by his principles, I think John Harbaugh has proved he's a better leader than people on this board are giving him credit for.

[Bullrush]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' timestamp='1305132575' post='685097']
I think Rashard Mendenhall, Kyle Wilson and Joe McKnight would disagree.
[/quote]
What happened to those guys? Wilson and McKnight clearly weren't good enough to play, they're rookies. McKnight was fumbling like crazy and he had LT and Greene ahead of him on the depth chart. Why would Rex play him? Wilson was their #3 corner behind Revis and Cromartie for the most part even though he pretty much sucked and got outplayed by Coleman. Mendenhall had close to 350 carries last season, not sure what you're referring to.

[Bltravens]

[quote name='Bullrush' timestamp='1305134130' post='685102']
What happened to those guys? Wilson and McKnight clearly weren't good enough to play, they're rookies. McKnight was fumbling like crazy and he had LT and Greene ahead of him on the depth chart. Why would Rex play him? Wilson was their #3 corner behind Revis and Cromartie for the most part even though he pretty much sucked and got outplayed by Coleman. Mendenhall had close to 350 carries last season, not sure what you're referring to.
[/quote]
2009 Mendenhall had issues with practice and Tomlin refused to play him until his practice performance got dramatically better.

Harbaugh's doghouse has contained Barnes and Ellerbe, a situational pass rusher that the Eagles straight up cut, and an UDFA who also has practice issues similar to what Mendenhall had. Harbaugh has done nothing different to Ellerbe than Tomlin did to Mendenhall.

[Bullrush]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' timestamp='1305132999' post='685099']
Which players never came out of his doghouse?

As for the team's rankings in penalties, not really. The Ravens were among the top three in penalties drawn in '08 and and last season but not in '09. And I'd venture to say the majority of those were penalties drawn in coverage. "Leadership" isn't going to help you draw less flags in those situations. Either you can cover, or you can't and we've seen a lot of bad coverage from the LBs and CBs since Harbaugh took over. That's probably something else naysayers will dump on him but that's just narrow-minded.
[/quote]
I remember a lot of flags on special teams and our offensive line. Can't blame it all on the DB's although they did get flagged a lot.

As for the guys that never made it out of his doghouse I remember quite a few: Jared Gaiher, Antwan Barnes, Willis McGahee, Demetrius Williams, LeRon McClain, Chris McAlister, Danell Ellerbe, Fabian Washington.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='Bullrush' timestamp='1305134130' post='685102']
What happened to those guys? Wilson and McKnight clearly weren't good enough to play, they're rookies. McKnight was fumbling like crazy and he had LT and Greene ahead of him on the depth chart. Why would Rex play him? Wilson was their #3 corner behind Revis and Cromartie for the most part even though he pretty much sucked and got outplayed by Coleman. Mendenhall had close to 350 carries last season, not sure what you're referring to.
[/quote]

McKnight had his struggles in pre-season but was inactive for close to half the season despite not being injured. To me, that would suggest he was in the doghouse.

Wilson was not the team's nickel for most of the season. He was reduced to special teams duty and Coleman started over him for a good part of the campaign.

Blt covered what I meant with Mendenhall.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='Bullrush' timestamp='1305134817' post='685111']
I remember a lot of flags on special teams and our offensive line. Can't blame it all on the DB's although they did get flagged a lot.

As for the guys that never made it out of his doghouse I remember quite a few: Jared Gaiher, Antwan Barnes, Willis McGahee, Demetrius Williams, LeRon McClain, Chris McAlister, Danell Ellerbe, Fabian Washington.
[/quote]

I didn't blame it all on the DBs. I said I'd guess they were responsible for most of them. I could be wrong. Yes, the o-line drew their fare share of flags as well. Why is that? Mostly because they were over-matched at times.

When Gaither was healthy, he played.

Barnes found his way back on the field in '09. So did Willis in '08.

Between injuries and a lack of consistency, what did Demetrius do to deserve more playing time?

When was Le'Ron in the doghouse?

McAlister challenged his authority. Was Harbaugh supposed to roll over?

Ellerbe got back on the field.

Fabian was a a liability in every way.

[ravenswoman]

[quote name='SpeedKills' timestamp='1305133808' post='685101']
Does Harbaugh have a doghouse? Yes. Does it hurt the team in the short-term? Yes, to an extent. [b]Does it help in the long-run?[/b] Yes. By sticking by his principles, I think John Harbaugh has proved he's a better leader than people on this board are giving him credit for.
[/quote]
I agree, that in the long run it will help. Going in, players will know what is expected of them if they don't want to be in the possible doghouse, and adjust their work ethic and behavior.

Willis is a prime example of it working. The difference in his play and attitude in one year was drastic.

As for Mac, he had a history of bad attitude and unacceptable behavior, from way back, that he was unwilling or unable to change.

There may still be penalties under Harbaugh but, to me at least, they aren't the types of penalties that were sooo embarrassing in the past.

I like the idea have having an all around classy team.