Flacco #2 In Deep Passes In 2010

[mgridda]

Hey guys, my cousin is a big fan of PFF and he's also a Ravens fan and sent this article to me. It's titled 'Going Deep' by Khaled Elsayed and in it the entire NFL QBs are looked at how much they go Deep. Flacco's name is brought up a lot because he apparently went Deep more than anyone not named Peyton Manning as he tied with Aaron Rodgers.

Manning went deep (20+ yards is their criteria, I guess that makes sense) 95 times and Rodgers and Flacco tied for 86 times. I'll include a little excerpt and the link...


[quote]
Going Deep
May 10th, 2011 | by Khaled Elsayed

We broke down every pass from the 2010 season, and dropped them into numerous categories and sub categories. One of these was passes thrown longer than 20 yards. Which brings us to the point of this article. A look at who threw downfield the most and who did it most efficiently. 30 deep attempts was the qualifying mark to be considered.


Asking A Lot

In numbers on their own (and this includes the playoffs) nobody threw downfield more often than Peyton Manning. [b]His 95 throws of more than 20 yards trumped Joe Flacco and Aaron Rodgers (both with 86)[/b], while Matt Hasselbeck and Drew Brees (both 76) rounded out the top five. Most interesting is the fact that only one of these guys finished with a completion percentage of over 40% when going deep. We’ll get to that guy in a bit.

You might guess that those five would have accumulated more yardage than the rest while throwing downfield. Well, not quite. While Rodgers and Brees made it onto both lists as each topped the 1,000 yard mark for deep throws, and Hasselbeck also appeared again, they were joined in the yardage Top 5 by Philip Rivers and Michael Vick.

So what of Manning and [b]Flacco? They threw downfield more than any other quarterbacks in the league, yet only finished sixth (Manning) and eighth (Flacco). Quite simply, their accuracy (or inaccuracy, rather) held them down.[/b]

Of all quarterbacks who attempted 30 or more deep passes (and there were 31 quarterbacks who did so), [b]Manning and Flacco finished in the bottom ten in completion percentage. Still it could be worse for both of them. They could be Matt Cassel.[/b]

The limited Chief struggled big time on his deep balls, completing just 14 of 57 for the worst percentage in the league. That beat out players like Alex Smith (25%), Chad Henne (25%) and Jay Cutler (26.56%). That wasn’t Cutler’s biggest problem, though. Along with the former Charger duo, Brees and Rivers, Cutler threw the most deep ball interceptions with eight.[/quote]


Source: http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2011/05/10/going-deep/

Also, later on I thought this was important to include:

[quote][b]

The same can be said of Flacco who never really had that deep threat to take advantage of with the Ravens rarely using Donte Stallworth. Yet they continued going deep and the end result was just 30.23% of those balls being completed. Now Flacco did lead the league (along with Rivers and Brees) in deep touchdowns with twelve, but the Ravens’ barrage of long balls really put the spotlight on the problems with their deep passing attack.[/quote][/b]


Thoughts? Discussion? So maybe a deep threat was really important or maybe Housh and Mason just didn't go up and get it?

All points said I think this just makes our drafting strategy look really good.

[gabefergy]

Quite frankly, we didn't have the personnel or did not properly use the personnel we had. Hopefully Torrey Smith and Tandon Doss can have an impact next season and that completion percentage will go up.

[grape drank]

hopefully torrey can live up to the hype and catch some more of those deep passed. I think Flacco is dying to let his cannon go, yet we keep demanding he go to the check down and short routes. Hopefully Torrey can get behind some defences this season.

[Bltravens]

Ya I mean I think everyone on this board knows Cam was trying to fit his "round" gameplans into "square peg" receivers. After awhile you have to make an adjustment, and Im sorry Cam but going max 7 or 8 man protections is not the adjustment.

Lets see if Torrey can boost that completion percentage and if Cam actually tries to get him the ball on a constant basis.

[flynismo]

To be expected when Stallworth never sees the field and TJ dropped how many passes of 15+ yards?I've always felt Flacco throws one of the best deep balls in the league (I think him, Brady and Manning are the top 3), so that dude who says it is his inaccuracy can kick rocks.

[Bltravens]

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1305056438' post='684649']
To be expected when Stallworth never sees the field and TJ dropped how many passes of 15+ yards?I've always felt Flacco throws one of the best deep balls in the league (I think him, Brady and Manning are the top 3), so that dude who says it is his inaccuracy can kick rocks.
[/quote]
Well alot of inaccuracy can be throwing in tight coverage because your WR gets minimal separation and like I said alot of times we went 7 or 8 protections when we took shots, so its either Flacco tries to make a play, or he throws the ball into the 3rd row.

[RL52TheGreatest]

Hopefully our infusion of youth at the WR position can help Joe complete more deep passes since they should be able to create better separation.

[mgridda]

Yeah but it's nice to know for all the Flacco bashers who seem to think Matt Ryan lets it rip and has ice in his veins and takes shots down field and that Flacco is a timid little girl who never takes shots down field and just throws check down passes to the incredibly superior YAC receiver Ray Rice.


I've gotten that a lot.

And I don't like it. That Flacco also leads the league in deep pass touchdowns (20+ yards or more) is awesome too. He's tied with Brees and Rivers.

I think that's more a reflection on our terrible red zone offense, though. Flacco is more likely to score from 25 yards out than from 15 yards out and closer. I think he might of statistically, too. Either way:

[quote]Well alot of inaccuracy can be throwing in tight coverage because your WR gets minimal separation and like I said alot of times we went 7 or 8 protections when we took shots, so its either Flacco tries to make a play, or he throws the ball into the 3rd row.[/quote]

This is why Torrey Smith might start at Wide Receiver next year. And why Mason might only come in on the outside when we go 3 wide. If we sign a big FA like Asomugha Mason might not be back at all, but that's highly unlikely.

I see us going:

HB - Rice
FB - McClain
Y WR - Boldin
Z WR - Smith
TE - Heap

HB - Rice
Y WR - Boldin
Z WR - Smith
TE - Heap
TE - Dickson

HB - Rice
Y WR - Mason
Z WR - Smith
X WR - Boldin
TE - Heap

HB - Rice
Y WR - Mason
Z WR - Smith
X WR - Boldin
X WR - Doss/Reed

and then the rest is obvious...

[EnVy_CaLiBeR]

[quote name='mgridda' timestamp='1305057720' post='684672']
Yeah but it's nice to know for all the Flacco bashers who seem to think Matt Ryan lets it rip and has ice in his veins and takes shots down field and that Flacco is a timid little girl who never takes shots down field and just throws check down passes to the incredibly superior YAC receiver Ray Rice.


I've gotten that a lot.

And I don't like it. That Flacco also leads the league in deep pass touchdowns (20+ yards or more) is awesome too. He's tied with Brees and Rivers.

I think that's more a reflection on our terrible red zone offense, though. Flacco is more likely to score from 25 yards out than from 15 yards out and closer. I think he might of statistically, too. Either way:



This is why Torrey Smith might start at Wide Receiver next year. And why Mason might only come in on the outside when we go 3 wide. If we sign a big FA like Asomugha Mason might not be back at all, but that's highly unlikely.

I see us going:

HB - Rice
FB - McClain
Y WR - Boldin
Z WR - Smith
TE - Heap

HB - Rice
Y WR - Boldin
Z WR - Smith
TE - Heap
TE - Dickson

HB - Rice
Y WR - Mason
Z WR - Smith
X WR - Boldin
TE - Heap

HB - Rice
Y WR - Mason
Z WR - Smith
X WR - Boldin
X WR - Doss/Reed

and then the rest is obvious...
[/quote]
I hope Mason takes a more backseat ride this season because we have to get Torrey and Doss involved even if it means he gets cut time. He's ol' reliable but they are our future after this season and Mason is not as much as I love him.

As far as the deep ball stats, I'm not surprised. Cameron consistently sent our receivers on streaks(even though they weren't suited for it) so Joe having the most down field stats is not surprising. Hopefully they'll get better now that we have young down field threats in Doss and Smith now.

[mgridda]

I believe in getting the best player out on the field. If that means Mason, then we go with Mason. If that means Torrey, then we go with Torrey. If that means Reed or Doss, then etc.


The only problem is that in practice and in training camp these receivers will be having opportunities to run Cam Cameron's playbook. So maybe a guy like Tandon Doss would look better in the West Coast offense than he would in Cam Cameron's offense. Same with a guy like Boldin. Because they'd run the routes that they like more often with the timing that they like more often.


Now Torrey Smith is probably just going to have a field day running the routes that Cam Cameron more than likely likes to draw up. And it's not like Boldin is incompetent deep. He's very good going deep, but he will get less deep routes and do what he's just one of the best receivers in the league at - underneath - if Torrey gets those deep routes.

Even with Mason.

[FerrariFan87]

Hopefully Joe's deep ball accuracy goes up this season, but with limited organized activities to get on the same page with T-Smith and Doss, I don't see that happening right away...

[Free Agent]

It probably would have helped to have a deep threat that actually particapated in some passing plays last season, instead of just end arounds.

[mgridda]

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1305056438' post='684649']
To be expected when Stallworth never sees the field and TJ dropped how many passes of 15+ yards?I've always felt Flacco throws one of the best deep balls in the league (I think him, Brady and Manning are the top 3), so that dude who says it is his inaccuracy can kick rocks.
[/quote]

Yeah, I don't think Flacco is necessarily inaccurate deep as this may portray, I think a lot of his deep passes were late developing plays which would rely on Oher and Cousins/Yanda/Chester/Moll to hold up. Oher was particularly bad as he was top 10 in pressures given up by starting left tackles.

And the reason I don't think that is because he's pretty low down the line on deep interceptions, or ints thrown while throwing deep. He was #8 and threw less of a percentage of deep picks/deep throws than Matt Ryan.

Of course that greasy Roethlisboller was #4.

[ravens rule]

[quote name='mgridda' timestamp='1305057720' post='684672']


I think that's more a reflection on our terrible red zone offense, though. Flacco is more likely to score from 25 yards out than from 15 yards out and closer. I think he might of statistically, too. Either way:



[/quote]
Totally agree i had better feeling our offense would score from like outside the red zone rather than at the 5 yard line which was embarrassing.

[Bullrush]

Somebody should explain to the Amateur Football Focus guys that hitting deep balls has nothing to do with accuracy. It's impossible to drop a ball in your receivers hands 70 yards downfield. These guys struggle to hit a standing target in the chest on a 10-20 yard throw.

[mgridda]

[quote name='Bullrush' timestamp='1305060386' post='684714']
Somebody should explain to the Amateur Football Focus guys that hitting deep balls has nothing to do with accuracy. It's impossible to drop a ball in your receivers hands 70 yards downfield. These guys struggle to hit a standing target in the chest on a 10-20 yard throw.
[/quote]


Right. The amount of completed throws over 20 yards divided by the amount of attempted throws over 20 yards has nothing to do with deep ball accuracy.

It's not perfect. And they'd be the first to say that completion percentages are flawed (they even wrote an article about it) because some things need to be considered:


1) Pressure. Not all QBs amount of times hurried and pressured is the same. Sometimes this falls on the fault of the QBs pocket presence, but most-times it's the fault of the O-Line.
2) Drops. Drops should no way count against a QB. However, with completion percentage they do.
3) Throw aways. Sometimes we're factoring in smart decisions by the QB (throwing the ball away) and punishing him for it.


Ultimately throw aways and drops only count for a small fraction of a QBs 300+ or 400+ throws. But pressure is a big one.

And considering that Gaither went down and Oher became the blindside protector, I think it really applies to Flacco. Chester also did not do well in pass protection or in the run. Chester is a bust, imo.

[Ed_Reed20]

To me, Joe's deep ball [i]is[/i] inconsistent. His long completions to Boldin against the Jets, Browns, Pats, Bills and Steelers and the deep ball that Mason dropped against the Texans were him at his best. However, I clearly remember missing on some deep balls as well. Him over-throwing Pitta in Week 2, under-throwing Stallworth against the Browns, a ball Joe Haden picked off in the same game, a pass intended for Heap that Reggie Nelson picked off in Week 17 and one of his last throws to Mason in the play-off game in Pittsburgh are all examples.

[Guest deltaraven]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' timestamp='1305074822' post='684852']
To me, Joe's deep ball [i]is[/i] inconsistent. His long completions to Boldin against the Jets, Browns, Pats, Bills and Steelers and the deep ball that Mason dropped against the Texans were him at his best. However, I clearly remember missing on some deep balls as well. Him over-throwing Pitta in Week 2, under-throwing Stallworth against the Browns, a ball Joe Haden picked off in the same game, a pass intended for Heap that Reggie Nelson picked off in Week 17 and one of his last throws to Mason in the play-off game in Pittsburgh are all examples.
[/quote]
Ive noticed where his deep passes (espcially to Mason )arent as accurate as they should be-maybe with Doss and Smith this could help-it should anyhow

[Guest ArmyRaven52]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' timestamp='1305074822' post='684852']
To me, Joe's deep ball [i]is[/i] inconsistent. His long completions to Boldin against the Jets, Browns, Pats, Bills and Steelers and the deep ball that Mason dropped against the Texans were him at his best. However, I clearly remember missing on some deep balls as well. Him over-throwing Pitta in Week 2, under-throwing Stallworth against the Browns, a ball Joe Haden picked off in the same game, a pass intended for Heap that Reggie Nelson picked off in Week 17 and one of his last throws to Mason in the play-off game in Pittsburgh are all examples.
[/quote]

First and foremost i agree with the premise of your post. The only thing that i would wish to add is just buy reading your article you can deduce that he was best at throwing the deep ball to familiar receivers. Yeah you guys are saying duh right, well as obvious as it seems I dont think cam has caught on yet. If you run max protect and have the 2 starters in all the time then of course the timing and chemistry ill be there. I would assume had stallworth been utilized correctly and this year if we actually use the weapons we got joe correctly then I see no reason why that number does not jump up drastically. We just need to get the young guys on the field.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='ArmyRaven52' timestamp='1305083531' post='684917']
First and foremost i agree with the premise of your post. [b]The only thing that i would wish to add is just buy reading your article you can deduce that he was best at throwing the deep ball to familiar receivers.[/b] Yeah you guys are saying duh right, well as obvious as it seems I dont think cam has caught on yet. If you run max protect and have the 2 starters in all the time then of course the timing and chemistry ill be there. I would assume had stallworth been utilized correctly and this year if we actually use the weapons we got joe correctly then I see no reason why that number does not jump up drastically. We just need to get the young guys on the field.
[/quote]

How can you really deduce that?

Unless I see a breakdown of how Joe fared going deep to every on of his targets that proves otherwise, I really don't think familiarity was much of a factor. Flacco's deep ball was simply inconsistent.

I agree utilization should have been better and having the two WRs that were faster than Boldin and Mason go deep more often would have likely helped but there were still some poor throws on Flacco's part.

[mgridda]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' timestamp='1305074822' post='684852']
To me, Joe's deep ball [i]is[/i] inconsistent. His long completions to Boldin against the Jets, Browns, Pats, Bills and Steelers and the deep ball that Mason dropped against the Texans were him at his best. However, I clearly remember missing on some deep balls as well. Him over-throwing Pitta in Week 2, under-throwing Stallworth against the Browns, a ball Joe Haden picked off in the same game, a pass intended for Heap that Reggie Nelson picked off in Week 17 and one of his last throws to Mason in the play-off game in Pittsburgh are all examples.
[/quote]


I agree with this, but I think it's because he was flustered in the pocket.

Chester and Oher allowed too many pressures and hurries. Flacco tripled the amount of hurries in 2010 as he had in 2009.

Jared Gaither was a major blow.

[BloodRaven]

Didn't you hear? Harbaugh says Oniel Cousins has left tackle feet... >___>

[H8R]

I completed 100 percent of my deep throws. Why am I not on the list?

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='mgridda' timestamp='1305095775' post='684961']
[b]I agree with this, but I think it's because he was flustered in the pocket.[/b]

Chester and Oher allowed too many pressures and hurries. Flacco tripled the amount of hurries in 2010 as he had in 2009.

Jared Gaither was a major blow.
[/quote]

I doubt he was pressured on every single one of his deep ball attempts.

QBs miss long throws all the time and I'm not damning Joe because of it but there were times when he missed deep balls on his own. Even on some passes he completed, like the long one to Stallworth against Pittsburgh, him throwing off his back foot led to the gain not being as long as it could have been.

[FerrariFan87]

Another issue I have with Joe is his inability to throw the receivers open... he tends to wait and wait and wait for them to get open before throwing it which leads to INTs and pass break-ups.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='FerrariFan87' timestamp='1305129141' post='685067']
Another issue I have with Joe is his inability to throw the receivers open... he tends to wait and wait and wait for them to get open before throwing it which leads to INTs and pass break-ups.
[/quote]

He does it on occasion but not nearly enough.

[Ravens Lover]

Interesting to see but we weren't meant to be a deep pass team, thats one of the reasons I think he got sacked so many times

[63bru]

[quote name='grape drank' timestamp='1305055419' post='684637']
hopefully torrey can live up to the hype and catch some more of those deep passed. I think Flacco is dying to let his cannon go, yet we keep demanding he go to the check down and short routes. Hopefully Torrey can get behind some defences this season.
[/quote]
I think we give him the opportunity with our play calls, hence why he was #2 in most deep passes attempted. Now we have a deep, young receiving corps that should help to increase the completion percentage on those attempts. I wouldn't be shocked if we attempted less deep passes next year, but for more yards.

[Gremraven]

[quote name='H8R' timestamp='1305127236' post='685054']
I completed 100 percent of my deep throws. Why am I not on the list?
[/quote]
Interesting point,good sir.

[Ravenslifer]

Like Bltravens said, we once again can see why the passing offense failed in 2010. We had a bunch of older, slower possession receivers on the field, and instead of letting them use their strengths (i.e. Boldin turning short passes into big gains), Cam tried to fit them into his system, which calls for fast, downfield receivers. Since Cam will not change his gameplan, I can only hope that utilizing the younger, hopefully faster, receivers we now have on the team will lead to future success.