Ozzie Optimistic Kindle Will Be A Raven

[izvoodoo]

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1304616026' post='682205']
are you kidding? Nearly every round, starting in Round 2 when we passed on Houston, we passed on at least one guy who could have helped out our rush.
Go back and look, there are plenty of examples.
[/quote]

After watching Jah Reid vs. Houston I don't think houston is that good. He's weak in at the point of attack and just gets mauled. Not a strong side backer at all, nor an AFC north backer.

Brooks Reed was better, but there was no one who could start and not a lot of them would be better than JJ.

[flynismo]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' timestamp='1304626031' post='682370']<br />Opinions on him seem to be divided here but McPhee isn't talentless. He's not a rush LB but did have moderate success rushing the QB at Mississippi State. <br /><br />As for the o-line, I felt a legitimate backup to Birk was needed but the team has already said re-signing Yanda is a priority and Reid could very well start this season. <br /><br /><br /><br />I forgot about Friday. He'd be another good UDFA candidate.<br />[/quote]


I'm not a McPhee fan, but I don't dislike the pick enough to knock it...

Basically, I think that taking O'Dowd and either Beal/Friday/or one of the safeties would have been a much better way to spend our last two picks..

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1304627744' post='682401']
I'm not a McPhee fan, but I don't dislike the pick enough to knock it...

Basically, I think that taking O'Dowd and either Beal/Friday/or one of the safeties would have been a much better way to spend our last two picks..
[/quote]

I've never really liked O'Dowd but Beal, Friday or one of the safeties in the 6th and 7th would have been great.

[gabefergy]

The only player I think we should have drafted was Chris Carter, but I cant complain about getting Tandon Doss instead. In the long run, I think the Doss selection will earn more dividends. Moch in the 2nd would have been a disaster, and Houston while talented has some consistency issues and questions about whether he could make the transition to OLB. I cant fault Ozzie for taking Torrey Smith, a player they clearly like a lot, instead of Houston.

What really hurt us was losing that 4th round pick that we should have gotten from Chicago. But that is in the past, we have to move forward now and try to make the best out of what we have. It's not like we are in a terrible position now. We basically have 1 hole on the roster at OLB. I think the FO will pursue some options in FA, Manny Lawson would be a very good fit IMO. He would give us some much-needed depth and provide a decent pass-rush.

[flynismo]

[quote name='gabefergy' timestamp='1304628496' post='682409']&lt;br /&gt;The only player I think we should have drafted was Chris Carter, but I cant complain about getting Tandon Doss instead. In the long run, I think the Doss selection will earn more dividends. Moch in the 2nd would have been a disaster, and Houston while talented has some consistency issues and questions about whether he could make the transition to OLB. I cant fault Ozzie for taking Torrey Smith, a player they clearly like a lot, instead of Houston.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;What really hurt us was losing that 4th round pick that we should have gotten from Chicago. But that is in the past, we have to move forward now and try to make the best out of what we have. It's not like we are in a terrible position now. We basically have 1 hole on the roster at OLB. I think the FO will pursue some options in FA, Manny Lawson would be a very good fit IMO. He would give us some much-needed depth and provide a decent pass-rush.&lt;br /&gt;[/quote]<br /><br /><br />there's a lot I dont agree with here. Saying Moch in the 2nd is a disaster would be fine, if you didn't go on to imply that Torrey is any safer. Smith is the wr equivalent of Moch..awesome athleticism, awesome production, extremely raw.<br /><br />Manny Lawson stinks. He couldn't even hold a job in SFO playing next to Willis...as raw as Moch is, I think he'd outplay Lawson from day one and never look back

[wayne]

I hope Chuck style makes up for it but when facing Manning and Brady, less blitzing with more dropping back in coverage is the way to go so we could be in trouble wen facing teams like that but I'm sure we will make up for it some way, some how.

[gabefergy]

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1304631436' post='682440']
there's a lot I dont agree with here. Saying Moch in the 2nd is a disaster would be fine, if you didn't go on to imply that Torrey is any safer. Smith is the wr equivalent of Moch..awesome athleticism, awesome production, extremely raw.

Manny Lawson stinks. He couldn't even hold a job in SFO playing next to Willis...as raw as Moch is, I think he'd outplay Lawson from day one and never look back
[/quote]
Lawson doesnt stink, he had a relatively poor statistical season last year, but he was largely misused by SF. He has been productive in the past and he is still young.

How can you compare taking Moch in the 2nd to taking Torrey there? Moch was a 3rd round prospect at best. He had a monster combine, but he never showed anything special on the field. Antwan Barnes 2.0

[dt23]

Kindle will be the NFL's Blake Griffin...missed a year but comes out firing on all cylinders when he finally gets to play

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1304631436' post='682440']
there's a lot I dont agree with here. Saying Moch in the 2nd is a disaster would be fine, if you didn't go on to imply that Torrey is any safer. Smith is the wr equivalent of Moch..awesome athleticism, awesome production, extremely raw.

[b]Manny Lawson stinks. He couldn't even hold a job in SFO playing next to Willis...as raw as Moch is, I think he'd outplay Lawson from day one and never look back[/b]
[/quote]

He's started every game the past two seasons and is considered good in coverage and against the run. He isn't a great pass rusher but hasn't exactly had a quality rush LB alongside him during his career.

[flynismo]

[quote name='gabefergy' timestamp='1304632118' post='682450']<br />Lawson doesnt stink, he had a relatively poor statistical season last year, but he was largely misused by SF. He has been productive in the past and he is still young.<br /><br />How can you compare taking Moch in the 2nd to taking Torrey there? Moch was a 3rd round prospect at best. He had a monster combine, but he never showed anything special on the field. Antwan Barnes 2.0<br />[/quote]

Moch is probably the 2nd best pass rusher in the class, and 6th in NCAA history in tackles for a loss. How do you figure he never showed anything on the field?

[Alexir]

I just think it was very stupid not to address OLB. We have Zero depth behind Suggs and JJ. ZERO! We don't know if Kindle will be able to play or if the league will take any actions for his DUI. It's techinically his first as an NFL player but he did have one in College.

Like I mentioned before I would of taken Stephen Friday over Anthony Allen.

[gabefergy]

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1304632588' post='682459']
[b]Moch is probably the 2nd best pass rusher in the class[/b], and 6th in NCAA history in tackles for a loss. How do you figure he never showed anything on the field?
[/quote]
Wow, thats quite the statement. Perhaps I shouldnt say he never showed anything on the field. He clearly was productive at Nevada, but it is easy to argue his statistics were racked up against inferior competition. Moch is extremely athletic there is no doubting that, but there are several questions surrounding his ability to succeed at the next level. He has great burst off the line and excellent speed, but he does not show very strong technique. His instincts are poor and he is a liabilty against the run. I will stand by the Antwan Barnes comparison.

[flynismo]

[quote name='gabefergy' timestamp='1304637879' post='682516']<br /> Wow, thats quite the statement. Perhaps I shouldnt say he never showed anything on the field. He clearly was productive at Nevada, but it is easy to argue his statistics were racked up against inferior competition. Moch is extremely athletic there is no doubting that, but there are several questions surrounding his ability to succeed at the next level. He has great burst off the line and excellent speed, but he does not show very strong technique. His instincts are poor and he is a liabilty against the run. I will stand by the Antwan Barnes comparison.<br />[/quote]

if you remove the name Moch and replace it with Torrey Smith, the scouting report would not have to change one bit-- raw, athletic, productive. I dont see either guy being any safer than the other. The only difference is Moch fills a much greater need

[izvoodoo]

[quote name='Alexir' timestamp='1304610391' post='682139']
Doesn't give a timetable and he is confident JJ will deliver a pass rush. Sounds like you missed the guy you wanted to draft and are trying to make our guys sound like they will have an impact this year...
[/quote]

I keep saying this... who? Who in this weak OLB class was going to come in and get us over the hump? The only guy who was pretty good was Ryan Kerrigan... who is not even THAT good. No matter who we drafted we wouldn't have addressed the pass rush at OLB. Maybe the DEs (Wilkerson or Heyward). But they're both 2 years away from being impact players.

[flynismo]

Who says OLB is the only way to address the pass rush? First of all, I really doubt that Miller and Kerrigan are the only two guys in the entire friggin' draft who can help one of the league's worst pass rushing defenses.Secondly, there were also DL who could have helped us too, in addition to the OLB

[EnVy_CaLiBeR]

[quote name='izvoodoo' timestamp='1304640788' post='682544']
I keep saying this... who? Who in this weak OLB class was going to come in and get us over the hump? The only guy who was pretty good was Ryan Kerrigan... who is not even THAT good. No matter who we drafted we wouldn't have addressed the pass rush at OLB. Maybe the DEs (Wilkerson or Heyward). But they're both 2 years away from being impact players.
[/quote]
Brooks Reed, Justin Houston, Dontay Moch, and Sam Acho could have all had a reasonable impact on our pass rush. Even if we take Brooks Reed out who went in the beginning of the second round, we had a shot at the other three. Not addressing the pass rush at all was the main problem with me. Dontay Moch and Sam Acho are just about as much of a project as Torrey Smith is at WR but they still could of had a decent impact. I still say I would of rather that we would of went Houston instead of Smith to be honest but it doesn't even matter anymore. I just hope Torrey pans out and prove my questions I had about him wrong.

[gabefergy]

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1304640558' post='682541']
if you remove the name Moch and replace it with Torrey Smith, the scouting report would not have to change one bit-- raw, athletic, productive. I dont see either guy being any safer than the other. [b]The only difference is Moch fills a much greater need[/b]
[/quote]

That is a matter of opinion. I agree that pass-rush is a need, but to say it is much greater than youth and speed at WR is incorrect IMO. I highly doubt Moch would have been a starter in our defense, the role he would serve can be filled in FA. Could we have drafted a pass-rusher and tried to plug in a FA WR? Perhaps, but WRs (especially those with a proven track record) come with a large pricetag. Hopefully Kindle will be cleared to play some time this season as well, but anything he can bring is a bonus as far as I am concerned.

[Bltravens]

Ahhhh I dont know, we needed a vertical threat in the worst way for our offense, or we were going to be back at square one from last year and Cam was going to run the offense the exact same way. Even if Torrey isnt the true 100% vertical threat like DeSean Jackson or Andre Johnson Torrey is far and above our best vertical threat now and he hasnt stepped on the field.

I thought Moch was exactly like Antwan Barnes as well, quick burts up field, strictly a speed rusher, extremely limited hand use and pass rush repitoire and I doubt his ability to be a 3 down OLB in a 34 defense. Marvin did him a favor by drafting him to a 43 team to let him play WSLB though imo.

I was a Houston advocate, but Ozzie and DeCosta must have seen something they despised in his game, they had access to more film than I did so maybe his effort was terrible too often for them who knows.

Really based on my own projections Kindle was better than anyone as a 34 OLB in this class save for maybe Aldon Smith or Quinn, maybe Ozzie just cant let it go.

[flynismo]

[quote name='gabefergy' timestamp='1304642786' post='682561']<br />That is a matter of opinion. I agree that pass-rush is a need, but to say it is much greater than youth and speed at WR is incorrect IMO. I highly doubt Moch would have been a starter in our defense, the role he would serve can be filled in FA. Could we have drafted a pass-rusher and tried to plug in a FA WR? Perhaps, but WRs (especially those with a proven track record) come with a large pricetag. Hopefully Kindle will be cleared to play some time this season as well, but anything he can bring is a bonus as far as I am concerned.<br />[/quote]

i dont really see it as a matter of opinion...not only did we record the lowest sack total in franchise history, we were dead last in the entire NFL in sacks per play.
If that isn't appalling enough, also consider that we were the 22nd ranked pass defense in the league.

If that doesn't convince anyone that our pass rush was and is this teams greatest need, I dont know what will.


As for Moch's role being served via free agency, the same could be said of Torrey. Speedy recievers who run deep routes are dime a dozen -- we could have just retained Stallworth for that.

[Bltravens]

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1304644242' post='682573']
i dont really see it as a matter of opinion...not only did we record the lowest sack total in franchise history, we were dead last in the entire NFL in sacks per play.
If that isn't appalling enough, also consider that we were the 22nd ranked pass defense in the league.

If that doesn't convince anyone that our pass rush was and is this teams greatest need, I dont know what will.


As for Moch's role being served via free agency, the same could be said of Torrey. Speedy recievers who run deep routes are dime a dozen -- we could have just retained Stallworth for that.
[/quote]
Stallworth is made of glass though, the dude runs and gets hurt, at the very least Torrey can/will go over the middle to catch a ball something I can hardly remember Stallworth doing in the last 6 years.

[scrock]

[quote name='Alexir' timestamp='1304610391' post='682139']
Doesn't give a timetable and he is confident JJ will deliver a pass rush. Sounds like you missed the guy you wanted to draft and are trying to make our guys sound like they will have an impact this year...
[/quote]

Actually the only guy they had targeted at pass rush was Chris Carter in the later rounds and the Steelers picked him a few spot above us. We got the players we wanted in the 1st and 2nd rounds.

edit: i should have said the only guy they had targeted and missed as a pass rusher was Chris Carter

[izvoodoo]

[quote name='EnVy_CaLiBeR' timestamp='1304641640' post='682549']
Brooks Reed, Justin Houston, Dontay Moch, and Sam Acho could have all had a reasonable impact on our pass rush. Even if we take Brooks Reed out who went in the beginning of the second round, we had a shot at the other three. Not addressing the pass rush at all was the main problem with me. Dontay Moch and Sam Acho are just about as much of a project as Torrey Smith is at WR but they still could of had a decent impact. I still say I would of rather that we would of went Houston instead of Smith to be honest but it doesn't even matter anymore. I just hope Torrey pans out and prove my questions I had about him wrong.
[/quote]

Pass rush and deep threat were equal needs, IMO.

But I'm going to go on a rant... I hate Justin Houston. people like him because he's an athlete and he comes clean when he's unblocked but that's it. When you get your hands on him he's crumbles. Moch needs moves to shed blocks but he at least plays strong and with good leverage. There's a reason houston fell so hard.

Torrey's a better football player than people give him credit for, if you watch him later in the season he improved, and i expect him to continue to improve.

But more importantly torrey can fill the donald driver/Derrick Mason leadership role on our team, which is something we needed.

Torrey Smith has the chance to be special, where as houston has the chance to be decent.

[-Truth-]

[quote name='izvoodoo' timestamp='1304645708' post='682590']
Pass rush and deep threat were equal needs, IMO.

But I'm going to go on a rant... I hate Justin Houston. people like him because he's an athlete and he comes clean when he's unblocked but that's it. When you get your hands on him he's crumbles. Moch needs moves to shed blocks but he at least plays strong and with good leverage. There's a reason houston fell so hard.

Torrey's a better football player than people give him credit for, if you watch him later in the season he improved, and i expect him to continue to improve.

But more importantly torrey can fill the donald driver/Derrick Mason leadership role on our team, which is something we needed.

Torrey Smith has the chance to be special, where as houston has the chance to be decent.
[/quote]
I couldn't disagree more with this assessment. I've seen my share of tape on Houston, and personally, I can't recall any footage that would even suggest that the majority of his production came from being left unaccounted for. At least from what I've seen, in most situations where he made his way to the QB in 2010, he had to get by an Offensive Lineman. Although it could take him time to become an all-around OLB, more specifically improve in coverage, the failed drug test at the Combine almost certainly played a part in his free fall. Claiming that he only has the chance to be decent is completely ridiculous.

[EnVy_CaLiBeR]

[quote name='izvoodoo' timestamp='1304645708' post='682590']
Pass rush and deep threat were equal needs, IMO.

But I'm going to go on a rant... I hate Justin Houston. people like him because he's an athlete and he comes clean when he's unblocked but that's it. When you get your hands on him he's crumbles. Moch needs moves to shed blocks but he at least plays strong and with good leverage. There's a reason houston fell so hard.

Torrey's a better football player than people give him credit for, if you watch him later in the season he improved, and i expect him to continue to improve.

But more importantly torrey can fill the donald driver/Derrick Mason leadership role on our team, which is something we needed.

[b]Torrey Smith has the chance to be special, where as houston has the chance to be decent.[/b]
[/quote]
I was with you until that. What makes you think Houston doesn't have a chance to be just as special as Torrey Smith? Of course, Torrey's ceiling is high but he has a LONG way to go before he can reach that ceiling. Torrey has far more questions than Houston does and I'd say Houston's ceiling is equally as high. He has all the tools to become a star OLB just like Torrey has the tools to become a star WR. It's just that Houston is closer to that level than Smith is. imo

Also, Justin Houston was extremely productive. Saying that if you get your hands on him then he crumbles is false.

[izvoodoo]

[quote name='-Truth-' timestamp='1304647514' post='682611']
I couldn't disagree more with this assessment. I've seen my share of tape on Houston, and personally, I can't recall any footage that would even suggest that the majority of his production came from being left unaccounted for. At least from what I've seen, in most situations where he made his way to the QB in 2010, he had to get by an Offensive Lineman. Although it could take him time to become an all-around OLB, more specifically improve in coverage, the failed drug test at the Combine almost certainly played a part in his free fall. Claiming that he only has the chance to be decent is completely ridiculous.
[/quote]
[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltGHVtRSg_E"]My link[/url]

He can get around people, but he's not a strong side OLB in the AFC north. that's a third round pick. A third round pick. A THIRD ROUND PICK! And houston is getting man handled.
If Jah Reid can do it... so can Willie Colon.

And that's a bowl game, if he were that good he would have shown up. I don't care about his stats and combine, when the chips are down he folded. He's a bad fit for the division. The packers, Chargers and patriots all passed on houston, if he were a player one of those teams would have drafted him. But they didn't, that should tell people something.

I didn't like houston that much, and there's a reason why he fell so far. He fell past several teams that needed OLBs as bad as we did.

EDIT:
My thing with houston is he's a far better DE than OLB. And when I said special I meant locker room figure rather than actual player. I'm pretty sure Doss is the guy we'll be talking about, but smith will be that leader we like to have. And also smith is playing on a better team, no disrespect to the chiefs, so I think he'll be more productive. No one will be as productive as Julio Jones, he's the number 2 receiver... and will get the number 2 Cb. Gees, that's like some madden crap.

I think houston will be a 6 sacks a season guy, where as Torrey Smith will be a donald driver type. Houston will give you a speed rush, but the run defense will suffer having him on the field. He's just not strong at the point of attack, and when all is said and done that's what really matters with pass rushers.

[-Truth-]

[quote name='izvoodoo' timestamp='1304647882' post='682617']
[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltGHVtRSg_E"]My link[/url]

He can get around people, but he's not a strong side OLB in the AFC north. that's a third round pick. A third round pick. A THIRD ROUND PICK! And houston is getting man handled.
If Jah Reid can do it... so can Willie Colon.

And that's a bowl game, if he were that good he would have shown up.

I didn't like houston that much, and there's a reason why he fell so far. He fell past several teams that needed OLBs as bad as we did.
[/quote]
I've seen this link. Yes, Houston was effectively shut down by Reid. Eric Winston was a third round pick. A THIRD ROUND PICK! A third round pick! Tyson Clabo was undrafted. Undrafted. UNDRAFTED! Do you know how many OL in the upper echelon were selected in the 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th rounds?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kR0L2RVId90&feature=related

Where in this footage do you see him being unblocked for the majority of his pressures and sacks?

[izvoodoo]

[quote name='-Truth-' timestamp='1304648743' post='682625']
I've seen this link. Yes, Houston was effectively shut down by Reid. Eric Winston was a third round pick. A THIRD ROUND PICK! A third round pick! Tyson Clabo was undrafted. Undrafted. UNDRAFTED! Do you know how many OL in the upper echelon were selected in the 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th rounds?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kR0L2RVId90&feature=related

Where in this footage do you see him being unblocked for the majority of his pressures and sacks?
[/quote]

He can get around people always with his speed, but that's it. He's just too athletic for most tackles. But speed rushers are only so effective, there extremely vulnerable to chip help. When I look at the really good pass rushers, they play like they're possessed. Houston doesn't have that mean streak. He reminds me of Gholston.

[EnVy_CaLiBeR]

[quote name='izvoodoo' timestamp='1304647882' post='682617']
[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltGHVtRSg_E"]My link[/url]

He can get around people, but he's not a strong side OLB in the AFC north. that's a third round pick. A third round pick. A THIRD ROUND PICK! And houston is getting man handled.
If Jah Reid can do it... so can Willie Colon.

And that's a bowl game, if he were that good he would have shown up. I don't care about his stats and combine, when the chips are down he folded. He's a bad fit for the division. The packers, Chargers and patriots all passed on houston, if he were a player one of those teams would have drafted him. But they didn't, that should tell people something.

I didn't like houston that much, and there's a reason why he fell so far. He fell past several teams that needed OLBs as bad as we did.

EDIT:
My thing with houston is he's a far better DE than OLB. And when I said special I meant locker room figure rather than actual player. I'm pretty sure Doss is the guy we'll be talking about, but smith will be that leader we like to have. And also smith is playing on a better team, no disrespect to the chiefs, so I think he'll be more productive. No one will be as productive as Julio Jones, he's the number 2 receiver... and will get the number 2 Cb. Gees, that's like some madden crap.

I think houston will be a 6 sacks a season guy, where as Torrey Smith will be a donald driver type. Houston will give you a speed rush, but the run defense will suffer having him on the field. He's just not strong at the point of attack, and when all is said and done that's what really matters with pass rushers.
[/quote]
I can't help but still believe that you're saying Torrey has a far better chance at being the better receiver than Houston does at being the OLB. Houston had motor issues but the main thing that caused him to drop was the failed drug test at the combine. Before that, Houston was considered a late 1st, early second round lock.

Like I said, Torrey has a longer way to go before he even comes close to his potential and Justin Houston is closer to reaching his.

[bdravens]

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1304640558' post='682541']
if you remove the name Moch and replace it with Torrey Smith, the scouting report would not have to change one bit-- raw, athletic, productive. I dont see either guy being any safer than the other. The only difference is Moch fills a much greater need
[/quote]
Agreed about the first part especially. Competition in college doesn't have as great of an impact as you would think. Joe Flacco played at D2 Delaware, and is pretty successful I'd say. Webb played at McNeese State or something like that, and that's hardly top notch competition. He's a raw, extremely athletic guy who is developing fast.

[izvoodoo]

[quote name='EnVy_CaLiBeR' timestamp='1304649505' post='682632']
I can't help but still believe that you're saying Torrey has a far better chance at being the better receiver than Houston does at being the OLB. Houston had motor issues but the main thing that caused him to drop was the failed drug test at the combine. Before that, Houston was considered a late 1st, early second round lock.

Like I said, Torrey has a longer way to go before he even comes close to his potential and Justin Houston is closer to reaching his.
[/quote]

I've been a pretty big pundit of Houston this whole time. he can develop into a solid pass rusher because of his speed, but I still see him as just a good OLB. Every great pass rusher has one thing in common, they're mean. They're not all fast, and they tend to have long arms, but they're all mean. Houston's not. I had torrey ranked higher than houston and brooks reed over houston as well. If brooks reed had the chance to be special he would have been taken by the patriots. I really feel like people just want pass rushers because of how important they are, not because they want good players. This class was incredibly weak at OLB.

But if houstons instincts improve he'll be better in coverage than rushing the pashers. for as strong as he is, he plays incredibly weak. With that athleticism he should be a top 10 pick.

But teams will run the ball at him for the rest of his life. He's weak from the 3 point stance and not as quick from the 2 point stance.

I don't think either player is going to be that great, but I do have more hope for Torrey than houston.

But to be clear, the player I would have taken there would have been Leonard Hankerson.