Foxworth

[Perfekt]

Army please breakdown how Wilson is the better corner?


Last time I checked Foxworth didnt play last season due to injury not to losing his job. If you were to make that assumption about Washington I would agree. Carr was more effective then Wilson but nobody is saying hes better then Foxworth but yet Wilson is the better option now that the seasons over.

Its funny how when I posted Wilsons Youtube video when we first got him how many people slept on him now it seems like everyone was on the bandwagon to begin. Can we please return to reality an remember why Foxworth got the payday he did.

[JO_75]

I don't want Foxworth cut either, I look at our Corner Depth now and go this is a good situation to have too many talented corners. Remember the 2008 Playoffs where we had to rely upon guys like Frank Walker because of injuries to other Corners? Now we have solid depth with Foxworth coming back, Jimmy Smith, Wilson/Carr(whichever the Front Office brings back, I prefer Wilson) and Webb as well.

With the indication that Jimmy Smith will line up against the best WRs, that means he will be # 1 on the depth chart, Foxworth I can see starting the season on PUP, with Wilson starting opposite of Smith.

[Perfekt]

Did everyone forget what Ozzie keeps saying about corner is the one position you can never get enough of. I think what he means is due to our injury history at the position we would rather carry too many then not carry enough. I really see us getting back Wilson and Carr.


I could see Foxworth redoing his contract if it means he gets to help keep Wilson home. Foxworth is a really smart guy an understands the business side of this as well.

[-Truth-]

[quote name='Perfekt' timestamp='1304626005' post='682368']
Army please breakdown how Wilson is the better corner?


Last time I checked Foxworth didnt play last season due to injury not to losing his job. If you were to make that assumption about Washington I would agree. Carr was more effective then Wilson but nobody is saying hes better then Foxworth but yet Wilson is the better option now that the seasons over.

Its funny how when I posted Wilsons Youtube video when we first got him how many people slept on him now it seems like everyone was on the bandwagon to begin. Can we please return to reality an remember why Foxworth got the payday he did.


[/quote]
How was Carr more effective than Wilson? Carr was incredibly consistent, so that's not taking anything away from him. But I just don't see the basis for that presumption. And not to debate on who's better between Wilson and Foxworth, but Foxworth was signed because he did a solid job in Atlanta. He was by no means a superstar.

[wayne]

I know one thing, I'm sure Chuck will be using a lot of Nickle sets.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='wayne' timestamp='1304630144' post='682427']
I know one thing, I'm sure Chuck will be using a lot of Nickle sets.
[/quote]

All DCs have to frequently use their nickel in today's pass-happy league.

[wayne]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' timestamp='1304631151' post='682434']
All DCs have to frequently use their nickel in today's pass-happy league.
[/quote]
Yea, but I'm speaking in terms of putting your best players / personnel out there and the 3-4 won't do that like it would for a team like the Steelers......we are better suited IMO operating out of nickel than a base 3-4 / 4-3 personnel.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='wayne' timestamp='1304632161' post='682452']
Yea, but I'm speaking in terms of putting your best players / personnel out there and the 3-4 won't do that like it would for a team like the Steelers......we are better suited IMO operating out of nickel than a base 3-4 / 4-3 personnel.
[/quote]

So, who would you have on the field?

[wayne]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' timestamp='1304632388' post='682454']
So, who would you have on the field?
[/quote]
Well, its not a hard decision with the secondary having so many options but...... i. Would have J. Smith as #1 Cb, Foxworth/Wilson as #2 and if Foxworth returns to his normal self he gets the nod at #2 with Wilson/Webb at #3 seeing that they are our best slot CBs with them both being able to change direction pretty good with fluid hips and they are physical meaning they can help with run support and be utilize on blitzing ( see Packers ).

At LB, Ray and Ellerbe/Gooden....... On D"ine from left to right: Suggs, Ngata,Redding/Kruger/new guy,Kindle/McClain/Kruger/Free Agent. I would consider moving Ngata to the opposite D-tackle side of Suggs and this is assuming we sign all these guys back.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='wayne' timestamp='1304634066' post='682474']
Well, its not a hard decision with the secondary having so many options but...... i. Would have J. Smith as #1 Cb, Foxworth/Wilson as #2 and if Foxworth returns to his normal self he gets the nod at #2 with Wilson/Webb at #3 seeing that they are our best slot CBs with them both being able to change direction pretty good with fluid hips and they are physical meaning they can help with run support and be utilize on blitzing ( see Packers ).

At LB, Ray and Ellerbe/Gooden....... On D"ine from left to right: Suggs, Ngata,Redding/Kruger/new guy,Kindle/McClain/Kruger/Free Agent. I would consider moving Ngata to the opposite D-tackle side of Suggs and this is assuming we sign all these guys back.
[/quote]

I like it for the most part but I doubt the team leaves Cody, McKinney and Gregg(he may not be released) out of their plans.

[Alexir]

I personally would take Wilson over Foxworth because he would come cheaper and Foxworth falls down too much. Way too much...

[wayne]

^^^^^ Only for the nickel b/c you want everyone out there on the front 4 to be able to generate pressure on the QB. Gregg gets absolutely no pass rush, unless Cody improves majorly in the off season which I seriously doubt for the pass rush which is not why we drafted him, he gets no pass rush and I doubt if McKinney generates a pass rush either. I guess we could have Cody or McKinney to help collaspe the pocket with Ngata though which would be great but I would rather have 3 pass rushers with one pocket collasper in the nickel like what the Giants do.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='wayne' timestamp='1304635595' post='682487']
^^^^^ Only for the nickel b/c you want everyone out there on the front 4 to be able to generate pressure on the QB. Gregg gets absolutely no pass rush, unless Cody improves majorly in the off season which I seriously doubt for the pass rush which is not why we drafted him, he gets no pass rush and I doubt if McKinney generates a pass rush either. I guess we could have Cody or McKinney to help collaspe the pocket with Ngata though which would be great but I would rather have 3 pass rushers with one pocket collasper in the nickel like what the Giants do.
[/quote]

All of that is true. It was your initial point that the team would be better served running a nickel formation than a base 3-4 or 4-3 that threw me off.

[wayne]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' timestamp='1304635815' post='682490']
All of that is true. It was your initial point that the team would be better served running a nickel formation than a base 3-4 or 4-3 that threw me off.
[/quote]
I only say that b/c I feel CB is the strength of our team as anyone would probably say so I would love to have atleast 3 of them out there most of the time.

[Perfekt]

Carr: 67 tackles 56 solo 2 INTs 8 PDs 3 FFs

Wilson: 36 tackles 35 solo 3 INTs 15 PDs


Those were their defensive stats for last season. Im not saying that if they both played the same amount of time those wouldnt be different but thats how the season unfolded.

[flynismo]

All we know for certain is that we have Smith, Foxworth and Webb. If smith plays the way we all know he is capable of, that is easily the best trio of CB in the league.What's it say when Foxworth, who would be the #1 on 90% of the teams in the league, is our #2?As much as we may like him, we dont need Wilson, not if he wants $5M+ a year. That money could and should be used on our OL or front seven.

[-Truth-]

[quote name='Perfekt' timestamp='1304690126' post='682747']
Carr: 67 tackles 56 solo 2 INTs 8 PDs 3 FFs

Wilson: 36 tackles 35 solo 3 INTs 15 PDs


Those were their defensive stats for last season. Im not saying that if they both played the same amount of time those wouldnt be different but thats how the season unfolded.
[/quote]
Coupled with Wilson's 3 PDs and 1 INT in the Playoffs, against Carr's 0 PDs and 0 INTs, Wilson finished with 4 INTs compared to Carr's 2, and 18 PDs compared to Carr's 8. That's impressive considering that Wilson didn't even become a full fledged starter until the second half of the Season. Tackles for CBs aren't necessarily an indication of success. A Corner is not only credited with a tackle when making a stop in run support, but also when pushing a WR out of bounds after allowing a completion or simply making contact after he dives for the reception, so it's difficult to distinguish the two by merely looking at the amount of tackles. Although I came to these conclusions based on my own observations, here are a few articles that argue for my point of view:

http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2011/02/17/your-guide-to-free-agency-afc-north/

"Please Don’t Go: A clear choice was Haloti Ngata, who got the franchise tag. A large part of the improved Ravens secondary was due to the trade for Josh Wilson. He allowed 46.9% of passes thrown his way to be caught which left him as our fifth-ranked cornerback in the league."

http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2011/04/15/secret-superstar-josh-wilson-baltimore-ravens/

"His season totals point to Wilson being one of the better cornerbacks in the league. He was one of only eight corners with 400 or more snaps to have allowed less than 50% of passes his direction to be completed. Only one player bettered his 10 defensed passes and also allowed fewer receptions: Darrelle Revis."

http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2011/01/05/the-ones-to-watch-afc-x-factors/

"Since that game Wilson has remained the starter for the Ravens and has graded out as comfortably the Ravens best corner this season, doubling the coverage grade of their next best cornerback, Chris Carr, and showing markedly better against the run."

[Perfekt]

My point was that Carr was just as much a reason the secondary was improved as was Wilson. I like Wilson alot but not enough to discredit Carr.

The problem with your reasoning is that because Carr played more that he would have better numbers. I remember at one point they were not throwing on him (no he wasnt shutdown but he was smothering) they kept picking on Webb an Washington so all he could do was help with tackling. My pont being stop tryin to make it seem like Carr was important because its obvious with those stats he did his job as well. Plus forced fumbles count as turnovers just as INTs do.

[-Truth-]

My point is that Wilson outperformed Carr, not that Carr was inept in coverage or in run support. Was there any part in my previous comments where I berated him? No. I'm simply praising Wilson for an excellent showing in 2010, which I feel is a somewhat undermined. Yes, the opposing Offenses chose to test Washington and Webb more often. While Carr was certainly solid in coverage, Webb wasn't as efficient in this department as he was during his Rookie campaign, partly because of the ACL tear, and Fabian struggled mightily with consistency, none worse than his showing during the Bills game. So why wouldn't they begin targeting the weaker links? Even when they did shy away from him, Carr still had a much better chance at having similar numbers than Wilson, who for the first 8 games was used sparingly, at best, while still adjusting to our defense and learning the playbook. And if you read the first article, you'd see that Wilson was targeted significantly less during the final stretch. And yet he still managed to light up the stat sheet. So your argument about Carr's lesser numbers being a byproduct of teams eluding him doesn't stick. Forced fumbles definitely count, but they're not an indication of superior coverage, considering that he allowed a reception before jarring the ball loose. Carr was a very solid CB for us, and his consistency was unmatched. But I saw no basis for why Carr was better than Wilson before this debate, and I've seen nothing since that would even remotely suggest otherwise.

[ellicottraven]

Well who is asking that Foxworth be cut? I haven't seen a mad rush for that in the forums...

[XxSizzleXx]

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1304707168' post='682901']
All we know for certain is that we have Smith, Foxworth and Webb. If smith plays the way we all know he is capable of, that is easily the best trio of CB in the league.What's it say when Foxworth, who would be the #1 on 90% of the teams in the league, is our #2?As much as we may like him, we dont need Wilson, not if he wants $5M+ a year. That money could and should be used on our OL or front seven.
[/quote]


Especially if Foxy plays like the way he did in the end half of that first season with the Ravens. You could tell he really started to get comfortable, started making plays and started helping out in run support.

[flynismo]

[quote name='ellicottraven' timestamp='1304798996' post='683300']<br />Well who is asking that Foxworth be cut? I haven't seen a mad rush for that in the forums...<br />[/quote]

actually I dont think a day passes where someone doesn't suggest we release Foxy if he doesn't take a pay cut.
But the torches and pitchforks aren't out ... Yet..

[purple.n.black]

To the Fox Wilson debate: the reason I think if we HAD to choose that Wilson would be a better option is mostly age. Wilson is 2 years younger, and I feel he has more room for improvement. Foxworth at 28 isn't old, but it is just 2 away from 30. Pair that with how IMO Wilson from beginning to end of year was much more improvement than Fox the previous year. Also Wilson will most likely be able to be retained for less than Fox which is another benefit.

[Guest ArmyRaven52]

[quote name='scrock' timestamp='1304563076' post='681908']
this is funny, i remember when people were so down on Wilson now they are saying he's better than Foxworth..he was injured all last year so people forget his ability. The year before Foxworth was the best CB we had and now suddenly he's not needed and we should ask him to take pay cut or get rid of him...

Most likely, we resign Wilson and Carr..Washington is gone, duh...and Nnamdi isnt coming, if he comes I'll be shocked as hell.
[/quote]

That year Foxy being the best CB we had didnt really say a whole lot. Chris Carr before he became Carr 2.0, fabian washington who other than the fact that he is really fast has nothing to offer a team, Webby who was a rookie and played relatively well enough so that people actually thought he was the best on the team, and fank "get the heart breaking penalty" walker. With this secondary he has if he doesnt restructure he is not worth being a 6 mil nickelback, because he is not the second best corner on our team much less the first.

[izvoodoo]

[quote name='ArmyRaven52' timestamp='1304817602' post='683412']
That year Foxy being the best CB we had didnt really say a whole lot. Chris Carr before he became Carr 2.0, fabian washington who other than the fact that he is really fast has nothing to offer a team, Webby who was a rookie and played relatively well enough so that people actually thought he was the best on the team, and fank "get the heart breaking penalty" walker. With this secondary he has if he doesnt restructure he is not worth being a 6 mil nickelback, because he is not the second best corner on our team much less the first.
[/quote]

Corners are over paid. I really don't think a corner should ever get paid more than 8 million, even Nnamdi and Reevis. I really like Wilson, he was a god send last year. I'm pretty sure we can keep Carr, he wants to be here. I really have no idea what free agency is going to look like.

[SpeedKills]

If we let Foxworth go, I'll tear out what little hair I have. He's a good corner, and being injured in the preseason doesn't qualify for being let go. See what he does in whatever training camp we have, and let that decide who gets to be the #2 corner after Jimmy. Either way, I think it's a win-win situation - to have a starting four CBs that consists of Smith, Wilson, Foxworth, and Webb/Carr, in no particular order other than Jimmy being #1. You've got to feel good about have five proven corners that can fill in for whoever gets injured, or who can just make sure that teams can't spread us out and beat us.

[Guest ArmyRaven52]

[quote name='Perfekt' timestamp='1304626005' post='682368']
Army please breakdown how Wilson is the better corner?


Last time I checked Foxworth didnt play last season due to injury not to losing his job. If you were to make that assumption about Washington I would agree. Carr was more effective then Wilson but nobody is saying hes better then Foxworth but yet Wilson is the better option now that the seasons over.

Its funny how when I posted Wilsons Youtube video when we first got him how many people slept on him now it seems like everyone was on the bandwagon to begin. Can we please return to reality an remember why Foxworth got the payday he did.


[/quote]

Gotcha coach.
The first year fox played for us he had 48 tackles, 0 sacks, 4 picks for 36 yards longest being 19 yards. He also did this with his front 7 getting more pressure then Seattles did and playing with a secondary where also had mroe help on the back end and could afford to take more chances.

The same year Wilson had 42 tackles, 1 sack, 2 picks for 125 yards the longest being a 65 yard touchdown(however both times he got the ball in his hands he scored). He did this without a pass rush or the back end help we have.

The year before when fox did so well that we decided to sign him we will again turn to numbers.

Foxy: 31 tackles, 11 pass deflections, 1 pick for one yard.
Wilson: 69 tackles, 9 pass deflections, 4 picks for one 135 yards one for a 75 yard TD. And he was a second year corner, while foxy was in his third year when CB's are supposed to hit their stride.

That season is the most telling story because both ATL and SEA defense were almost identical in every statistical category.

So I guess that is the breakdown in the two years before last ( I didnt count it because the injury to foxy obviously.) In the 3 years wilson and foxy have been playing at the same time in two of them wilson dominates the stats and he is by far the better playmaker. All thye numbers are on NFL website so the numbers say wilson is the better corner and playmaker.

[Milton145]

Wilson is faster and has better cover skills IMO. Also more big play ability than Foxworth AND he also has Special Teams value. He's also younger and would cost less. I'd rather have Wilson.

[Free Agent]

The only problem I have with Foxworth is the money he is making. Foxworth is making #1 money, but with Jimmy Smith, Josh Wilson and Chris Carr on the roster, I would have Foxworth behind all three on the depth chart. Im all for him staying, but only if he is willing to restructure his deal.

[Guest ArmyRaven52]

[quote name='Milton145' timestamp='1304821342' post='683430']
Wilson is faster and has better cover skills IMO. Also more big play ability than Foxworth AND he also has Special Teams value. He's also younger and would cost less. I'd rather have Wilson.
[/quote]
Good point with the special teams aspect.
HE Seattle’s single-season records for most KORs (69) and KOR yards 1,753 in 2008
and in the same year led the NFL with 8 KORs of more than 40 yards. SO yeah in just about every aspect of football wilson is better maybe we should line them up at WR just to see who could play offense better because when it comes to D and special teams it looks like wilson all day. If I were debating with logic I would have already made my point.