Flacco Vs Ryan

[atljbo]

[quote name='Ravensfan23' timestamp='1303456599' post='668587']
First off I'll say i think the Ryan vs Flacco debate is completely unfair to both guys, because unless they are playing the same teams in the same situations, you can't really compare them.

However, I would like to know why exactly would you choose Ryan over Flacco to win just one game? Is it just your opinion that Ryan reads defenses a bit better. If that's the case then that's a faulty rating system imo.

I think the first thing you gotta do is understand the differences between both offenses. Ryan is in pretty much the same offensive system he was in at BC, and that's more of a one read offense. Ryan has his 1st option, 2nd option and dump off option. In that offense the ball is meant to come out of Ryan's hands quickly. Each WR has to be at a spot and Ryan gets the ball to them depending upon what he sees at the snap of the ball.

This type of offense is a bit simpler imo as a fan. That takes nothing away from Ryan because he operates it well.

On the other hand, Cam's offense and route combinations are much more complex. Cam's offense is designed for Flacco to hold the ball a bit longer to allow routes to develop down field. The WRs run a lot of option routes and also have the freedom to free-lance at times. That makes decision making for a QB much more difficult imo. The fact that Flacco's TD-INT ratio has improved each year, as well as his numbers against the blitz tells me that Flacco is doing a really good job continuing to master Cam's offense.

Now i'm not saying you're wrong in your choice of Ryan for one game, but sometimes, things that are at a distance seems much more appealing to us. However if Ryan was in a Ravens uniform and Flacco in a Falcons, you're opinion and views might be a bit different.
[/quote]

I disagree... I cant speak to your scheme but the falcons scheme is not as simple as you are making it... The dump down guy is mostly the 3rd or 4th option... If you are going by "because Roddy White have so many catches" ... Its because dude is a top 5 WR... Heck lets go back to the ravens game "lets not fight..lol" ... In the Roddy White TD play.. He wasnt the 1st option... Tony Gonzalez was the 1st option... Dude was covered... Heck Jenkins was the 2nd option... Roddy was the 3rd option/decoy ... Do we have some 1st reads get the ball out your hand.... yes... ofcourse...Will Roddy be the 1st option on most plays ...ofcourse... dude is a beast plus he is our only big play guy as of now... plus our O-Line is not as great as some think.

But its not as simple as you are trying to make it to take away from what Matt Ryan do.

Heck.. Falcon fans can say the same thing about Flacco tho... It seem like he dump the ball down to Ray Rice ALOT... Regardless... That doesnt matter to me... If it gets the job done do it... It would be stupid not to use that weapon.

[atljbo]

[quote name='Ravensfan23' timestamp='1303486387' post='668646']
yea i understand what you're saying, and like i said before I'm not saying your wrong in your choice. Matty is a really good QB, I just feel like one of the biggest reasons that Flacco doesn't seem to excel as well as Ryan in his respective offense is more because of the people around him.

When you have a oline that isn't playing exceptionally well, it's makes Cam's offense even harder to execute.

What i meant about things being different with the QBs on opposite teams is, If Flacco and Cam were in ATL, and all things were the same in 10', if Flacco compiles the same numbers and wins as Ryan, what would be your opinion of Flacco. On the other hand if, Ryan was in a Ravens uniform, and he had Todd Heap drop a TD, Boldin run a wrong route leading to a Int, and Housh getting a PI call in the endzone, all in the Jets game with prevented him from being one of only 2 QBs to pass for 300+ yards and 3TDs against the Jets defense; would that change you view of the way Ryan performed.

What if Ryan had both Boldin and Mason drop TDs in the overtime lost to NE, what if Ryan had Boldin drop a key TD, and Housh dropping a drive continuing pass on 4th down in the playoff lost to the Steelers? Would your opinion of Ryan change even though most of these things were out of his control?

Now like i've said before you're not wrong, and you are a lot different from most of us who take part in this debate because you actually get to watch a heavy dose of both Ryan and Flacco. I agree 100% that Ryan is more comfortable in his system and came into the NFL better prepared. However i still believe that Flacco is much more clutch then Ryan, it's just unfortunate that he's let down by his teammates in some of the biggest spots.

What if Hauskca doesn't miss a game winning FG against the Vikings, what if Mark Clayton doesn't drop a 4th down pass that hit him right in the hands in a 6 point loss to NE, what if Mason doesn't drop a wide open TD against the Steelers that would have given the Ravens 27-20 led in the 4th quarter of a game they lost 20-23, what if Ryan led his team back against Flacco, but his defense allowed Flacco to go 80 yards to win the game, how would all of these events change the perception of Matt Ryan.

Most times people look past the actual game and look to numbers, stats, and results as their deciding point of who's better(not saying you do), each one of these events that I've mention were plays that came in losses, and players that were out of Flacco's hands. He actually made the play, or got his team in position to win, the surrounding pieces just failed him. If the players around Flacco came through in these situations, Flacco would be viewed as a player who came up big, in road games, against division leading opponents. Instead, people just view Flacco as a decent QB who needs to play better in big game. While Flacco could and will play better in bigger games, his teammates need to start helping him out when it matters the most.

I've seen Flacco bring his bring his team back from a double digit hole against the hated Steelers in Pittsburg, I've seen Flacco lead potential game winning drives against the defensive mastery of Bilichek in Foxbrough, I've seen Flacco, come up big when his team needed him most in the playoff game against the #1 seeded Titans his rookie year, I've seen Flacco pull his offense together and lead them on a drive that should have resulted in a TD, that would have given the Ravens a 28-24 lead against the Steelers in the playoff after the offense had the worse 3rd quarter in history. Unfortunately for Flacco, most of these games resulted in a loss because his team failed him.

On the other hand, I've seen Ryan struggle in both of his playoff games, I've seen him struggle in other big games, where his team bailed him out. I've seen him get praised and given credit for leading a game winning drive when the return team got him out all the way across the 50 yardline and all he had to do was get about 20 yards for a FG. Now admittedly, you've seen much more of Ryan then I have, but for my money, if i need one win on the road or at home, I'll take Flacco. I'd just hope his teammates come to play as well.
[/quote]

The playoff point is right... He has to get over that hump.

Since 2008... Matt Ryan and Big Ben are tied for the most 4th quarter come backs.


You are not nearly giving Ryan his credit... The return game for use just showed up this year (weems stepped up big) ...

[berad]

[quote name='atljbo' timestamp='1303493981' post='668697']
Since 2008... Matt Ryan and Big Ben are tied for the most 4th quarter come backs
[/quote]

Roethlisberger has more...

[b][url="http://www.pro-football-reference.com/play-index/comeback.cgi?player=RoetBe00"]Roethlisberger[/url][/b], [b][color="#FF0000"][url="http://www.pro-football-reference.com/play-index/comeback.cgi?player=RyanMa00"]Ryan[/url][/color][/b].

Additionally, [color="#0000FF"][b][url="http://www.pro-football-reference.com/play-index/comeback.cgi?player=MannPe00"]Peyton Manning[/url][/b][/color] has 11 compared to Roethlisberger's 9 and Ryan's 8.

Where are you getting your numbers? They're flat-out wrong.

[atljbo]

[quote name='berad' timestamp='1303494586' post='668703']
Roethlisberger has more...

[b][url="http://www.pro-football-reference.com/play-index/comeback.cgi?player=RoetBe00"]Roethlisberger[/url][/b], [b][color="#FF0000"][url="http://www.pro-football-reference.com/play-index/comeback.cgi?player=RyanMa00"]Ryan[/url][/color][/b].

Additionally, [color="#0000FF"][b][url="http://www.pro-football-reference.com/play-index/comeback.cgi?player=MannPe00"]Peyton Manning[/url][/b][/color] has 11 compared to Roethlisberger's 9 and Ryan's 8.

Where are you getting your numbers? They're flat-out wrong.
[/quote]


Something i heard on the NFL Network during the season...


Just looked it up and found the same stat.... So he is 3rd

[berad]

[quote name='atljbo' timestamp='1303495842' post='668716']
Something i heard on the NFL Network during the season...


[b]Just looked it up and found the same stat.... So he is 3rd
[/b][/quote]

Not quite. [b][url="http://www.pro-football-reference.com/play-index/comeback.cgi?player=BreeDr00"]Drew Brees[/url][/b] and [color="#FF8C00"][b][url="http://www.pro-football-reference.com/play-index/comeback.cgi?player=CutlJa00"]Jay Cutler[/url][/b][/color] have 9, too.

[Suggs Package]

[quote name='Ravensfan23' timestamp='1303486387' post='668646']
yea i understand what you're saying, and like i said before I'm not saying your wrong in your choice. Matty is a really good QB, I just feel like one of the biggest reasons that Flacco doesn't seem to excel as well as Ryan in his respective offense is more because of the people around him.

When you have a oline that isn't playing exceptionally well, it's makes Cam's offense even harder to execute.

What i meant about things being different with the QBs on opposite teams is, If Flacco and Cam were in ATL, and all things were the same in 10', if Flacco compiles the same numbers and wins as Ryan, what would be your opinion of Flacco. On the other hand if, Ryan was in a Ravens uniform, and he had Todd Heap drop a TD, Boldin run a wrong route leading to a Int, and Housh getting a PI call in the endzone, all in the Jets game with prevented him from being one of only 2 QBs to pass for 300+ yards and 3TDs against the Jets defense; would that change you view of the way Ryan performed.

What if Ryan had both Boldin and Mason drop TDs in the overtime lost to NE, what if Ryan had Boldin drop a key TD, and Housh dropping a drive continuing pass on 4th down in the playoff lost to the Steelers? Would your opinion of Ryan change even though most of these things were out of his control?

Now like i've said before you're not wrong, and you are a lot different from most of us who take part in this debate because you actually get to watch a heavy dose of both Ryan and Flacco. I agree 100% that Ryan is more comfortable in his system and came into the NFL better prepared. However i still believe that Flacco is much more clutch then Ryan, it's just unfortunate that he's let down by his teammates in some of the biggest spots.

What if Hauskca doesn't miss a game winning FG against the Vikings, what if Mark Clayton doesn't drop a 4th down pass that hit him right in the hands in a 6 point loss to NE, what if Mason doesn't drop a wide open TD against the Steelers that would have given the Ravens 27-20 led in the 4th quarter of a game they lost 20-23, what if Ryan led his team back against Flacco, but his defense allowed Flacco to go 80 yards to win the game, how would all of these events change the perception of Matt Ryan.

Most times people look past the actual game and look to numbers, stats, and results as their deciding point of who's better(not saying you do), each one of these events that I've mention were plays that came in losses, and players that were out of Flacco's hands. He actually made the play, or got his team in position to win, the surrounding pieces just failed him. If the players around Flacco came through in these situations, Flacco would be viewed as a player who came up big, in road games, against division leading opponents. Instead, people just view Flacco as a decent QB who needs to play better in big game. While Flacco could and will play better in bigger games, his teammates need to start helping him out when it matters the most.

I've seen Flacco bring his bring his team back from a double digit hole against the hated Steelers in Pittsburg, I've seen Flacco lead potential game winning drives against the defensive mastery of Bilichek in Foxbrough, I've seen Flacco, come up big when his team needed him most in the playoff game against the #1 seeded Titans his rookie year, I've seen Flacco pull his offense together and lead them on a drive that should have resulted in a TD, that would have given the Ravens a 28-24 lead against the Steelers in the playoff after the offense had the worse 3rd quarter in history. Unfortunately for Flacco, most of these games resulted in a loss because his team failed him.

On the other hand, I've seen Ryan struggle in both of his playoff games, I've seen him struggle in other big games, where his team bailed him out. I've seen him get praised and given credit for leading a game winning drive when the return team got him out all the way across the 50 yardline and all he had to do was get about 20 yards for a FG. Now admittedly, you've seen much more of Ryan then I have, but for my money, if i need one win on the road or at home, I'll take Flacco. I'd just hope his teammates come to play as well.
[/quote]

Funny thing is that I think both QBs would fit better if they switched places. Both offensive lines are about equal in my opinion. But imagine Matt Ryan with all the depth of sure handed savvy receiving options we have in Bmore. I think he would pick apart a defense Tom Brady style. And Flacco with a beast like Roddy White where he can really take advantage of his arm. Jenkins and Finneran probably aren't even better than Stallworth, but both are 6-4 or taller and that would make Flacco's life so much easier because he has a tendency to throw too high when under pressure.

But the thing that hurts the Falcons is that they are too one dimensional in their passing game, and that doesn't fly in the playoffs. Also, the teams they lost to in the playoffs ended up in the Super Bowl, just like us.

[atljbo]

[quote name='berad' timestamp='1303496662' post='668724']
Not quite. [b][url="http://www.pro-football-reference.com/play-index/comeback.cgi?player=BreeDr00"]Drew Brees[/url][/b] and [color="#FF8C00"][b][url="http://www.pro-football-reference.com/play-index/comeback.cgi?player=CutlJa00"]Jay Cutler[/url][/b][/color] have 9, too.
[/quote]
ok... He is still 3rd dude... and dude this in his 1st 3 YEARS... Still very impressive



I had the 1st stat wrong tho... I heard it on the NFL Network during the season.

I know Josh Freeman is coming up there also... Dude was on fire this year

[berad]

[quote name='atljbo' timestamp='1303497179' post='668730']
ok... He is still 3rd dude... and dude this in his 1st 3 YEARS... Still very impressive



I had the 1st stat wrong tho... I heard it on the NFL Network during the season.

I know Josh Freeman is coming up there also... Dude was on fire this year
[/quote]

No, he's fifth...

1. Manning - 11
T-2. Roethlisberger - 9
T-2. Brees - 9
T-2. Cutler - 9
5. Ryan - 8

That's the way rankings work. It may be impressive but it's not the same as the statistics you originally claimed. I was just pointing out an error, dude.

[Bltravens]

Are we playing the Big Lebowski game or something [b]dude[/b]? Did I miss that memo lol

[atljbo]

[quote name='Suggs Package' timestamp='1303497173' post='668729']
[b]Funny thing is that I think both QBs would fit better if they switched places. Both offensive lines are about equal in my opinion. But imagine Matt Ryan with all the depth of sure handed savvy receiving options we have in Bmore. I think he would pick apart a defense Tom Brady style. And Flacco with a beast like Roddy White where he can really take advantage of his arm.[/b] Jenkins and Finneran probably aren't even better than Stallworth, but both are 6-4 or taller and that would make Flacco's life so much easier because he has a tendency to throw too high when under pressure.

But the thing that hurts the Falcons is that they are too one dimensional in their passing game, and that doesn't fly in the playoffs. Also, the teams they lost to in the playoffs ended up in the Super Bowl, just like us.
[/quote]


Another fan (falcon fan) recently said the samething to me

[atljbo]

[quote name='berad' timestamp='1303497516' post='668732']
No, he's fifth...

1. Manning - 11
T-2. Roethlisberger - 9
T-2. Brees - 9
T-2. Cutler - 9
5. Ryan - 8

That's the way rankings work. It may be impressive but it's not the same as the statistics you originally claimed. I was just pointing out an error, dude.
[/quote]

Oh.. No doubt... I said i was wrong on that one... I heard it on the NFL network during the season.. I should have looked it up (recently) before i post that tho.

I also saw this

[quote]Peyton Manning led 11 game winning drives in his first three years in the league.

Tom Brady led 15 game winning drives in his first three years in the league.

Ben Roethlisberger led 11 game winning drives in his first three years in the league.

Matt Ryan has led 13 game winning drives in his career thus far, [/quote]

[jimmypowder]

I wanna see Matty Ice win a playoff game .He's looked alot worse then Joe in the playoffs.

Isn't that the benchmark?Playoff wins?and Super Bowl win?

Matty aint done nothing!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[darklight1216]

That link took me to a draft discussion.

The question is not who will win the SB, but only who will make an appearance first, correct?

To me, it initially seems obvious. The NFC has won 3 of the last four SBs and the sole loss was by a team with the worst defense to ever make it to the big game. They seem to have the hot hand. In addition, three NFC South teams have been there in (fairly) recent years.

Of course, this is the Not For Long league so who knows. I'm tempted to say that with the Ravens history of failure against the big three teams (NE,Pitt,Indy) it's hard to go with Flacco, but then again with Ryan's playoff record isn't exactly impressive either.

Head/Tails? I'll stick with my team.

[Ravensfan23]

[quote name='atljbo' timestamp='1303493810' post='668694']
I disagree... I cant speak to your scheme but the falcons scheme is not as simple as you are making it... The dump down guy is mostly the 3rd or 4th option... If you are going by "because Roddy White have so many catches" ... Its because dude is a top 5 WR... Heck lets go back to the ravens game "lets not fight..lol" ... In the Roddy White TD play.. He wasnt the 1st option... Tony Gonzalez was the 1st option... Dude was covered... Heck Jenkins was the 2nd option... Roddy was the 3rd option/decoy ... Do we have some 1st reads get the ball out your hand.... yes... ofcourse...Will Roddy be the 1st option on most plays ...ofcourse... dude is a beast plus he is our only big play guy as of now... plus our O-Line is not as great as some think.

But its not as simple as you are trying to make it to take away from what Matt Ryan do.

Heck.. Falcon fans can say the same thing about Flacco tho... It seem like he dump the ball down to Ray Rice ALOT... Regardless... That doesnt matter to me... If it gets the job done do it... It would be stupid not to use that weapon.
[/quote]

If you read my full post(i know it was a lot) i said, i take nothing away from Ryan because he executes your offense really well. Me saying you offense is a one read offense isn't a bad thing or an attack. It's just the same style of offense Ryan had in BC, which makes him more comfortable.

I never said Ryan only throws to one guy or never throws to his 2nd or 3rd option. I simple said one read.

Maybe I didn't explain it well enough, when i say one read, it's Ryan locating the Safety on the play side(which pretty much every QB does) if the Safety sheds to the play side, then Ryan already has his mind made up to go to his second option, and so on and so on.

It's not a knock to him, because it still takes skill and great decision making to execute that offense. However, you're system isn't as complexed as Cam's is. Doesn't make Cam's offense better nor worse just different.

[Ravensfan23]

[quote name='atljbo' timestamp='1303493981' post='668697']
The playoff point is right... He has to get over that hump.

Since 2008... Matt Ryan and Big Ben are tied for the most 4th quarter come backs.


You are not nearly giving Ryan his credit... The return game for use just showed up this year (weems stepped up big) ...
[/quote]

And how many of those comeback wins came in must win games, or against Playoff caliber teams. How many of those comebacks came when you guys were home in perfect field conditions and no wind affecting your kicker? As I've said plenty of times, Ryan is a heck of a QB, however for my money I'd rather have Flacco in a big spot.

It's not that I'm not giving Ryan his just due, I just feel that Flacco has done just as much if not more, and in most cases against much tougher competition.

[atljbo]

[quote name='Ravensfan23' timestamp='1303535681' post='668983']
And how many of those comeback wins came in must win games, or against Playoff caliber teams. How many of those comebacks came when you guys were home in perfect field conditions and no wind affecting your kicker? As I've said plenty of times, Ryan is a heck of a QB, however for my money I'd rather have Flacco in a big spot.

It's not that I'm not giving Ryan his just due, I just feel that Flacco has done just as much if not more, and in most cases against much tougher competition.
[/quote]


I know one of those wins was against the jets in their windy stadium... I remember this specifically because Rex Ryan thought we kicked them out of the playoff race.

If you think Flacco is better... I respect that but come on... Dont use the "where they play" excuse... I have yet to hear a Patriots fan say Tom Brady is better then Manning because Brady plays out doors... The QB cant control where they play... Regardless you have to product.

But just to lay it out there... Matt Ryan played at boston college (a windy boston out door stadium) ... Also our Owner is building an outdoor stadium for the Falcons

[hawkprey]

[quote name='atljbo' timestamp='1303578831' post='669138']
I know one of those wins was against the jets in their windy stadium... I remember this specifically because Rex Ryan thought we kicked them out of the playoff race.

If you think Flacco is better... I respect that but come on... Dont use the "where they play" excuse... I have yet to hear a Patriots fan say Tom Brady is better then Manning because Brady plays out doors... The QB cant control where they play... Regardless you have to product.

But just to lay it out there... Matt Ryan played at boston college (a windy boston out door stadium) ... Also our Owner is building an outdoor stadium for the Falcons
[/quote]

Comeback wins is a pointless way to judge a quarterback. Good QBs don't "come back to save the day", they start winning in the first quarter. Your Jets game is a perfect example. Yes, Ryan threw a game-winning TD, but those 7 points were his only points of the game. Winning in the last two minutes doesn't make up for sucking for the first 58. Ryan was 16 for 34 (47% acc.) with 152 yards.

And yes, people do call Brady better because he plays in the elements. The Pats/Bears game was a perfect example.

[Ravensfan23]

[quote name='atljbo' timestamp='1303578831' post='669138']
I know one of those wins was against the jets in their windy stadium... I remember this specifically because Rex Ryan thought we kicked them out of the playoff race.

If you think Flacco is better... I respect that but come on... Dont use the "where they play" excuse... I have yet to hear a Patriots fan say Tom Brady is better then Manning because Brady plays out doors... The QB cant control where they play... Regardless you have to product.

But just to lay it out there... Matt Ryan played at boston college (a windy boston out door stadium) ... Also our Owner is building an outdoor stadium for the Falcons
[/quote]

I think you have failed to realize exactly what I said, I said, for "my money" I'd take Flacco because I've seen every single snap this guy has taken in his career and I've seen what he's done in big spot even if his team didn't hold up there end.

I never said Ryan was a bad QB, not as good as Flacco, or his comeback wins don't count. I just said from what I've seen of Ryan compared to Flacco, I'd take Flacco over Ryan if i had to win one big game.

A Pats fan probably won't say that Brady is better then Manning just because of where they play, and I'm not saying that either. However I'm willing to bet that if you polled Pats fans or any others, and asked who would u rather have to win one big game in less then perfect weather, Brady would probably be the answer. Does that make him better? well maybe in some eyes, but Brady has done it before and Manning has a habit of not coming up big in big games, especially when the weather is bad.

There's no need to point out one time that Ryan had a comeback win in less then perfect conditions because I'm not saying that he can't do it. I've said countless time that i feel Ryan is just as good as Flacco, so where you get the impression that I'm bad mouthing Ryan i don't know.

My whole point is, I've seen Flacco come up big in hostile places like Pittsburgh, New England, and Tennessee, against what many would call great defenses or great defensive coaches. I just haven't seen that from Ryan, does it mean he can't or will never do it No. Just means i haven't seen it so, do to that fact I'll take Flacco.

I'm sure you could probably tell me of a few times when Ryan's teammates let him down and caused him not to win a big game, because you've seen much more of him. I just don't see it.

[atljbo]

[quote name='Ravensfan23' timestamp='1303581032' post='669167']
I think you have failed to realize exactly what I said, I said, for "my money" I'd take Flacco because I've seen every single snap this guy has taken in his career and I've seen what he's done in big spot even if his team didn't hold up there end.

I never said Ryan was a bad QB, not as good as Flacco, or his comeback wins don't count. I just said from what I've seen of Ryan compared to Flacco, I'd take Flacco over Ryan if i had to win one big game.

A Pats fan probably won't say that Brady is better then Manning just because of where they play, and I'm not saying that either. However I'm willing to bet that if you polled Pats fans or any others, and asked who would u rather have to win one big game in less then perfect weather, Brady would probably be the answer. Does that make him better? well maybe in some eyes, but Brady has done it before and Manning has a habit of not coming up big in big games, especially when the weather is bad.

There's no need to point out one time that Ryan had a comeback win in less then perfect conditions because I'm not saying that he can't do it. I've said countless time that i feel Ryan is just as good as Flacco, so where you get the impression that I'm bad mouthing Ryan i don't know.

My whole point is, I've seen Flacco come up big in hostile places like Pittsburgh, New England, and Tennessee, against what many would call great defenses or great defensive coaches. I just haven't seen that from Ryan, does it mean he can't or will never do it No. Just means i haven't seen it so, do to that fact I'll take Flacco.

I'm sure you could probably tell me of a few times when Ryan's teammates let him down and caused him not to win a big game, because you've seen much more of him. I just don't see it.
[/quote]

I understand what you are saying 100%



[quote name='hawkprey' timestamp='1303580002' post='669149']
Comeback wins is a pointless way to judge a quarterback. Good QBs don't "come back to save the day", they start winning in the first quarter. Your Jets game is a perfect example. Yes, Ryan threw a game-winning TD, but those 7 points were his only points of the game. Winning in the last two minutes doesn't make up for sucking for the first 58. Ryan was 16 for 34 (47% acc.) with 152 yards.

And yes, people do call Brady better because he plays in the elements. The Pats/Bears game was a perfect example.
[/quote]


Ive yet to see a fan say Brady is better because of the elements... I mean.. I talk to Pats fan and they think Brady is better but thats not a excuse they use...

Thats like saying Eli Manning is better then Philip Rivers because of the elements... You play where you play... The only thing counts is if you produce or not..


I like Flacco as a young QB... Thats why i like this argument... Both guys have their arrows pointed up.

[Rugba905]

Truly I believe Joe Flacco is better than Matt Ryan plain and simple

[63bru]

I'm just going to play devil's advocate here, just throwing out arguments for Matt Ryan. First of all, you can discount Flacco's playoff wins. I don't care how many playoff wins you've got unless you've won it all. I'm not saying they're not impressive, but they aren't the measure of a great quarterback, championships are. Second, Flacco seems to be snake bitten against two of the teams in his conference, the Steelers with Roethlisberger and the Bengals. Matt Ryan has no such problems. Matt Ryan occasionally has a bad game, like all QBs, but you can't count on him to fall apart against specific opponents. To be honest, if Joe Flacco had to play the Bengals 16 times a year, his passer rating would be below 50. You cannot be snake bitten against a specific franchise and be considered a great quarterback. Matt Ryan can beat anybody, anywhere. Just because he hasn't done it in a big game yet doesn't mean he can't. Flacco has shown that he just can't beat the Bengals on his own. If the defense can't hold the Bengals to single digits, its game over for the Ravens. Finally, it's a popular argument to say that Ryan has better weapons, but that's simply not true. Roddy White is certainly better than any individual Raven's receiver but let's stack up the roster. Ray Rice vs. Michael Turner? Ray Rice, because he's a more complete and explosive player. Tony Gonzalez vs. Todd Heap? Gonzalez, obviously, but Heap is no slouch. White vs. Boldin? White, clearly. Mason vs. Michael Jenkins? Mason is a more productive and better player. TJ Houshmanzadeh/Mark Clayton vs. Harry Douglas? Definitely the Ravens again. Point being, talent isn't the issue. The two teams have roughly the same weapons, but the difference is that Matt Ryan has proven he can carry the offense while Flacco has yet to show that ability.

Those are my arguments. Personally, I'd actually pick Flacco, but I just wanted to be difficult. Please don't hate me for arguing against the Ravens.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='63bru' timestamp='1303601436' post='669365']
I'm just going to play devil's advocate here, just throwing out arguments for Matt Ryan. First of all, you can discount Flacco's playoff wins. I don't care how many playoff wins you've got unless you've won it all. I'm not saying they're not impressive, but they aren't the measure of a great quarterback, championships are. [b]Second, Flacco seems to be snake bitten against two of the teams in his conference, the Steelers with Roethlisberger and the Bengals. Matt Ryan has no such problems. Matt Ryan occasionally has a bad game, like all QBs, but you can't count on him to fall apart against specific opponents. To be honest, if Joe Flacco had to play the Bengals 16 times a year, his passer rating would be below 50. You cannot be snake bitten against a specific franchise and be considered a great quarterback. [size="3"]Matt Ryan can beat anybody, anywhere. Just because he hasn't done it in a big game yet doesn't mean he can't. Flacco has shown that he just can't beat the Bengals on his own.[/size][/b] If the defense can't hold the Bengals to single digits, its game over for the Ravens. Finally, it's a popular argument to say that Ryan has better weapons, but that's simply not true. Roddy White is certainly better than any individual Raven's receiver but let's stack up the roster. Ray Rice vs. Michael Turner? Ray Rice, because he's a more complete and explosive player. Tony Gonzalez vs. Todd Heap? Gonzalez, obviously, but Heap is no slouch. White vs. Boldin? White, clearly. Mason vs. Michael Jenkins? Mason is a more productive and better player. TJ Houshmanzadeh/Mark Clayton vs. Harry Douglas? Definitely the Ravens again. Point being, talent isn't the issue. The two teams have roughly the same weapons, but [b]the difference is that Matt Ryan has proven he can carry the offense while Flacco has yet to show that ability.[/b]

Those are my arguments. Personally, I'd actually pick Flacco, but I just wanted to be difficult. Please don't hate me for arguing against the Ravens.
[/quote]

Flacco has obviously had his struggles against the Steelers and Bengals. But in the majority of the games against those teams, the o-line and WRs struggled mightility as well. When you look around the league, Manning, Brady, Brees, Rodgers and Roethlisberger are the only QBs we've seen consistently succeed in spite of their offenses at times.

To me, saying Ryan can beat any team anywhere when he has yet to lead his team to a win over every team in the league, nor have any play-off success is a joke.

As is saying Joe can't beat the Bengals on his own. No QB beats a team by himself! Since 2009, Marvin Lewis, Don Zimmer and their defense have found ways to embarrass not only Flacco but the Ravens' o-line and WRs. To chalk up the offense's struggles against the Bengals the past two seasons to Joe simply not being good enough is wrong.

In response to your last point, Joe [i]has[/i] carried the offense before. We've seen him do it for halves and entire games.

[63bru]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' timestamp='1303603870' post='669394']
Flacco has obviously had his struggles against the Steelers and Bengals. But in the majority of the games against those teams, the o-line and WRs struggled mightility as well. When you look around the league, Manning, Brady, Brees, Rodgers and Roethlisberger are the only QBs we've seen consistently succeed in spite of their offenses at times.

[b]To me, saying Ryan can beat any team anywhere when he has yet to lead his team to a win over every team in the league, nor have any play-off success is a joke. [/b]

As is saying Joe can't beat the Bengals on his own. No QB beats a team by himself! Since 2009, Marvin Lewis, Don Zimmer and their defense have found ways to embarrass not only Flacco but the Ravens' o-line and WRs. To chalk up the offense's struggles against the Bengals the past two seasons to Joe simply not being good enough is wrong.

In response to your last point, Joe [i]has[/i] carried the offense before. We've seen him do it for halves and entire games.
[/quote]
That's fair, but I could easily tone down the rhetoric to say that Matt Ryan has never had the in conference struggles that Flacco has had. Yes, Zimmer and Lebeau can fluster our offensive line and wide receivers, but the fact is that Flacco plays his absolute worst against the Cincinnati Bengals. I've seen the o-line struggle before, and Flacco has still found a way to win. The o-line struggled all year and Flacco still found ways to win. Wasn't he sacked 4 times against the Chiefs? And concerning our receivers, pretty much every team makes them struggle. Flacco has still found ways to win with a struggling receiving corps and a struggling o-line. For some reason, he just struggles to do so against the Cincinnati Bengals. Matt Ryan might not have beaten every team yet, but he isn't snake bitten like Joe is. Even though I'd go with Flacco if I wasn't playing devil's advocate, I still think Flacco's snake bitten against the Bengals, and until he proves he can play a good game against them, thats going to be something holding him back.

[Corvus]

Obviously Joe hadn't gotten the "you can't beat the Bengals" memo in '08. Seems as though I remember him running 30+ yards for the winning points in his first real NFL game against them and he and Clayton putting on a clinic on the Bengals vaunted Joseph-Hall duo later in the season. And somehow it all went downhill from there against that one specific team..

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='63bru' timestamp='1303604285' post='669398']
That's fair, but I could easily tone down the rhetoric to say that Matt Ryan has never had the in conference struggles that Flacco has had. Yes, Zimmer and Lebeau can fluster our offensive line and wide receivers, but the fact is that Flacco plays his absolute worst against the Cincinnati Bengals. I've seen the o-line struggle before, and Flacco has still found a way to win. The o-line struggled all year and Flacco still found ways to win. Wasn't he sacked 4 times against the Chiefs? And concerning our receivers, pretty much every team makes them struggle. Flacco has still found ways to win with a struggling receiving corps and a struggling o-line. For some reason, he just struggles to do so against the Cincinnati Bengals. Matt Ryan might not have beaten every team yet, but he isn't snake bitten like Joe is. Even though I'd go with Flacco if I wasn't playing devil's advocate, I still think Flacco's snake bitten against the Bengals, and until he proves he can play a good game against them, thats going to be something holding him back.
[/quote]

True. But Ryan also plays in a conference where the defenses aren't as stout as those in the AFC North.

I can't deny Flacco plays his worst football against the Cincy. I actually think he played worse in the second game against them last season than the first.

Also, you're right that the team prevailed in some games where the o-line noticeably struggled. But not all of those games were won particularly because of the offense.

Against Miami, it was the defense that shut down Henne and the rest of Miami's offense. Against Tampa Bay, it was the running game that closed things out, one of the few times that happened all season. Against Houston, the offense did nothing in the second half and the D ultimately produced the game-winning play. In the final week of the season, the Ravens would have lost to Cincy had Palmer made a better throw on his last attempt.

You're right that the Ravens overcame o-line struggles against KC in the play-offs but that was arguably the only time Joe was the focal point in putting the game away.

I disagree that "pretty much every team" clamped on the Ravens WRs last season. There were only four games where the WRs weren't much of factor collectively and two came against the Bengals. Part of that was on Joe but they struggled to separate more than usual.

I don't believe Flacco is "snake-bitten" against the Bengals. He hasn't played well against them in two seasons but save for Rice picking up yards on the ground in the first game last season, I can't think of any other player on the Ravens' offense not struggling in some way against the Bengals since '08.

[gabefergy]

Matt Ryan didn't exactly put on a clinic when he played the Steelers last year. I'm also pretty sure Joe had nice games against the Panthers, Saints, and Bucs. There defenses just aren't as good as the Steelers.

[63bru]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' timestamp='1303606460' post='669418']
True. But Ryan also plays in a conference where the defenses aren't as stout as those in the AFC North.

I can't deny Flacco plays his worst football against the Cincy. I actually think he played worse in the second game against them last season than the first.

Also, you're right that the team prevailed in some games where the o-line noticeably struggled. But not all of those games were won particularly because of the offense.

Against Miami, it was the defense that shut down Henne and the rest of Miami's offense. Against Tampa Bay, it was the running game that closed things out, one of the few times that happened all season. Against Houston, the offense did nothing in the second half and the D ultimately produced the game-winning play. In the final week of the season, the Ravens would have lost to Cincy had Palmer made a better throw on his last attempt.

You're right that the Ravens overcame o-line struggles against KC in the play-offs but that was arguably the only time Joe was the focal point in putting the game away.

I disagree that "pretty much every team" clamped on the Ravens WRs last season. There were only four games where the WRs weren't much of factor collectively and two came against the Bengals. Part of that was on Joe but they struggled to separate more than usual.

I don't believe Flacco is "snake-bitten" against the Bengals. He hasn't played well against them in two seasons but save for Rice picking up yards on the ground in the first game last season, I can't think of any other player on the Ravens' offense not struggling in some way against the Bengals since '08.
[/quote]
I can't disagree with anything you're saying, but I also feel like you're making my arguments better for me rather than tearing them down. Specifically concerning the defense, of which the Ravens have a much better defense than the Falcons, yet are producing similar results. I don't know if Flacco is snake-bitten, but I'll tell you that I dread our games against the Bengals.

[atljbo]

Let me throw this in you guys discussion .. Matt Ryan Picked a part the bengals (299 passing yards, 3 TFD's, and 1 int) ... If anyone say the Steelers game... He didint have a bad game... He def didnt have a good game tho... Troy P did what he do and made a big play on our last drive to get in FG position... ill def say that Lebeau ef won that one that but Ryan didnt have a bad game. We just played it tooooooooo safe

Our OC got chewed up by our HC for playing it so safe that game..

[Romo Ravens]

[quote name='atljbo' timestamp='1303611947' post='669459']
Let me throw this in you guys discussion .. Matt Ryan Picked a part the bengals (299 passing yards, 3 TFD's, and 1 int) ... If anyone say the Steelers game... He didint have a bad game... He def didnt have a good game tho... Troy P did what he do and made a big play on our last drive to get in FG position... ill def say that Lebeau ef won that one that but Ryan didnt have a bad game. We just played it tooooooooo safe

Our OC got chewed up by our HC for playing it so safe that game..
[/quote]

You're talking to the wrong fan base about your OC playing it too safe.

[atljbo]

[quote name='Romo Ravens' timestamp='1303612380' post='669463']
You're talking to the wrong fan base about your OC playing it too safe.
[/quote]


oh nooo.. i get it... ive seen some ravens game...I know you guys have that same problems... Offensive weapon wise... You guys have the weapons to spread the steelers out and pick them apart...