Flacco Vs Ryan

[YYZ66]

Interesting discussion going on at ESPN.com about Flacco and Ryan. The question is who will get to the Super Bowl first. John Clayton makes a great point that the Falcons have an easier road in the NFC than do the Ravens in the AFC.

[url="http://espn.go.com/nfl/hot"]link[/url]

[RavensAllTheWay]

Not to destroy Clayton, but I love how he says this QB has to win these games and this QB has to win these, while Walker says this TEAM has to win these games and those.

[T3hRaven]

I noticed this earlier, and it's amazing how the only person standing up for Joe was the AFC North blogger. The easier road argument is a valid one, but the numbers don't lie. Flacco has actually won playoffs games, unlike Matt Ryan. But they are also right that when Ray and some of our older defenders leave we will almost certainly have a down year or two, but we still do have some young promising guys on defense. Still, our window with our older players is another two years at best.

I know nobody is more critical of Joe Flacco than our own fans, but he really doesn't get any love from anyone despite the fact he has been almost identical to Matt Ryan in the regular season while actually winning playoff games. As a guy who believes in Flacco a lot, it gets really frustrating for me at times. Do you guys think Flacco would get more love outside of Baltimore?

[berad]

I'm surprised the poll is even that close. I expected Flacco to be losing to Ryan by a larger margin with the way the national media loves him. I'll agree with the NFC being "easier" than the AFC - if the Ravens played in the NFC South, winning the division would be a given.

Btw, Flacco has played better than Ryan the past two seasons... even if no one wants to talk about it. And that Pro Bowl selection is a sham.

[berad]

[quote name='RavensAllTheWay' timestamp='1303186112' post='666947']
Not to destroy Clayton, but I love how he says this QB has to win these games and this QB has to win these, while Walker says this TEAM has to win these games and those.
[/quote]

True. I hate when W-L records are attributed to QBs even though, in this case, it heavily favors Flacco.

This is more significant: Flacco's played well in at least one [i](you could argue two)[/i] playoff games, while Matt Ryan has floundered in both of his.

EDIT: Dang, Walker puts up a GOOD argument. Especially this statement...

[quote]
Ryan gets all the hype from the 2008 quarterback class, but his career stats are virtually identical to Flacco's. What is not identical is Flacco's playoff success and higher probability of getting to the Super Bowl.[/quote]

[Alexir]

Joe will win one before because I think we are a better team because of our defense. I don't think Joe is better or worse than Matt Ryan at this point. Ryan has a better OL, RB, WR and TE. We will see though.

[Ravens Lover]

To be honest it wouldn't surprise me att all if both QBs first Super Bowls was a Ravens Falcons Super Bowl thats how closely related these teams are

[RichieAsh]

I'm a Joe backer all the way, and I mean all the way. However, as of the end of last season Ryan is clearly a little better and we saw it in the game they played last season. Ryan commanded the field, called his plays and audibles at the line and picked the Ravens apart. He's a more experienced QB having played in parts of 4 years at BC. Joe still needs to catch up in the mental area, the processing info quicker on the field. As someone else said, their careers are so interconnected and seem destined to play in the super bowl.

[Militant X 1]

[quote name='RichieAsh' timestamp='1303216919' post='666986']
I'm a Joe backer all the way, and I mean all the way. However, as of the end of last season [b]Ryan is clearly a little better and we saw it in the game they played last season. Ryan commanded the field, called his plays and audibles at the line and picked the Ravens apart. He's a more experienced QB [/b]having played in parts of 4 years at BC. [b]Joe still needs to catch up in the mental area, the processing info quicker on the field.[/b] As someone else said, their careers are so interconnected and seem destined to play in the super bowl.
[/quote]

agreed!

~Mili

[True]

Not this again...

[Ravenslifer]

Give Joe Flacco Roddy White and Ryan Derrick Mason. Then let Ryan play the Steelers twice and Joe the Panthers twice. Let's see who has the better numbers.

[Corvus]

Its unfortunate that all these talking heads have such an unabashed media <[i]love[/i]> for Matt Ryan because it causes me to slightly dislike a very good young QB with tons of upside. I have no problems with Ryan but this is always the case in a Flacco-Ryan debate, everyone jumping on his just downright amazing coat tails. The only point I can agree with is that Flacco will have to go through more "elite" QBs to get to the Super Bowl, so for that reason, yes Ryan may very well do it before Flacco. All that said, Flacco 4-3 postseason record > Ryan 0-2 postseason record.

And I know no one here will argue it, but I often see "Flacco has to step up in the playoffs" from these media types. It is true, he does but he has at least had one great playoff game (KC last year) that he and our defense won together. So even if they wanna discount those other 3 wins where he was sub-par, that's still 1 more win than Ryan. Its also funny how these same people hold those performances against Flacco, but for example, Big Ben almost throwing away his first SB in Detroit is never mentioned, but he is still a 2 time champion. Flawed logic and popularity contests will always reign supreme in Media World.

[T3hRaven]

[quote name='RichieAsh' timestamp='1303216919' post='666986']
I'm a Joe backer all the way, and I mean all the way. However, as of the end of last season Ryan is clearly a little better and we saw it in the game they played last season. Ryan commanded the field, called his plays and audibles at the line and picked the Ravens apart. He's a more experienced QB having played in parts of 4 years at BC. Joe still needs to catch up in the mental area, the processing info quicker on the field. As someone else said, their careers are so interconnected and seem destined to play in the super bowl.
[/quote]

Joe isn't allowed to audible, so that's not necessarily his fault in that respect. When it comes down to it, his only mistake in that game was the pick, and he still drove us down for the score with barely any time left. Barring the unfortunate collapse of our defense in the final minutes of the game, and a clear penalty from Roddy White, we would have won that game.

It is true that Flacco has to elevate his game, especially in the playoffs, but it's pretty well established that he's being handicapped in the offense right now. Maybe Harbs will unleash him next year, maybe we'll be stuck with the same mediocre offense, I don't know. I do believe that when the offensive scheme is fixed Flacco will show more of what he's capable of.

[FerrariFan87]

[quote name='Ravenslifer' timestamp='1303225115' post='667014']
Give Joe Flacco Roddy White and Ryan Derrick Mason. Then let Ryan play the Steelers twice and Joe the Panthers twice. Let's see who has the better numbers.
[/quote]

To be fair, we get the Bungles and Browns twice a year as well while Ryan has to face the Bucs and Saints... so the competition each faces is pretty even if you think about it. For me, this debate begins and ends with playoff wins. Flacco has 4, Ryan has ZERO. Ergo, Flacco has a better chance of getting the the Super Bowl first.

[Ravenslifer]

[quote name='FerrariFan87' timestamp='1303229479' post='667049']
To be fair, we get the Bungles and Browns twice a year as well while Ryan has to face the Bucs and Saints... so the competition each faces is pretty even if you think about it. For me, this debate begins and ends with playoff wins. Flacco has 4, Ryan has ZERO. Ergo, Flacco has a better chance of getting the the Super Bowl first.
[/quote]

I'm just comparing the level of defensive talent each has to face. Joe Flacco last year faced the Steelers twice and the Bengals twice. The Steelers give everyone problems and we know the Bengals have maybe the best cornerback tandem in the NFL. You also have to factor in the Browns' Joe Haden. Quarterbacks play the defense, and I don't think either the Bucs or Saints have a very good defense.

[YYZ66]

[quote name='FerrariFan87' timestamp='1303229479' post='667049']
To be fair, we get the Bungles and Browns twice a year as well while Ryan has to face the Bucs and Saints... so the competition each faces is pretty even if you think about it. For me, this debate begins and ends with playoff wins. Flacco has 4, Ryan has ZERO. Ergo, Flacco has a better chance of getting the the Super Bowl first.
[/quote]

Nice use of ergo!

I don't think any of us should be surprised by the love for Ryan. Not to mention the hate for our Ravens. Hopefully we'll actually have a season this year so we can prove everyone wrong!!

[Jamal]

They both have basically identical regular season records. It would only be poetic justice for both of them making it the same year.

[Clutch Ravens]

[quote name='Ravenslifer' timestamp='1303230179' post='667058']
I'm just comparing the level of defensive talent each has to face. Joe Flacco last year faced the Steelers twice and the Bengals twice. The Steelers give everyone problems and we know the Bengals have maybe the best cornerback tandem in the NFL. You also have to factor in the Browns' Joe Haden. Quarterbacks play the defense, and I don't think either the Bucs or Saints have a very good defense.
[/quote]

Don't forget that the Panthers only had one legitimate talent on the D-line in Charles Johnson. Their defensive tackles were pathetic and a combination of Everette Brown/Greg Hardy etc. accross from Johnson got next to no pressure.

[FerrariFan87]

[quote name='YYZ66' timestamp='1303230493' post='667064']
Nice use of ergo!

I don't think any of us should be surprised by the love for Ryan. Not to mention the hate for our Ravens. Hopefully we'll actually have a season this year so we can prove everyone wrong!!
[/quote]

Why, thank you, sir! IF there is a season, we'll be sure to shut-up all the haters.

[PurpleGreek]

Who cares what anyone outside of Baltimore thinks about Cool Joe? He's proven himself.

A better question is when will Harbaugh and Cameron wake up and implement an offense that's designed around existing personnel? Will they let Joe run the offense and become a Top QB or will they keep holding his hand and calling bonehead plays? Should I even mention Ray Rice being underutilized?

GO BALTIMORE.

[hawkprey]

[quote name='RichieAsh' timestamp='1303216919' post='666986']
I'm a Joe backer all the way, and I mean all the way. However, as of the end of last season Ryan is clearly a little better and we saw it in the game they played last season. Ryan commanded the field, called his plays and audibles at the line and picked the Ravens apart. He's a more experienced QB having played in parts of 4 years at BC. Joe still needs to catch up in the mental area, the processing info quicker on the field. As someone else said, their careers are so interconnected and seem destined to play in the super bowl.
[/quote]

To a Ravens fan watching your D get trashed it might seem like that. But back then we were operating under the same defensive strategy that made Ryan Fitzpatrick look like a HOFer. Look at the stats and you'll see Joe put up nearly identical numbers (QB rating 99.9 vs 101.8) under much more pressure than Ryan faced. And had the refs called the pass interference on Josh Wilson on the last play the numbers would've heavily favored Joe.

[darklight1216]

[quote name='hawkprey' timestamp='1303246050' post='667189']
To a Ravens fan watching your D get trashed it might seem like that. But back then we were operating under the same defensive strategy that made Ryan Fitzpatrick look like a HOFer. Look at the stats and you'll see Joe put up nearly identical numbers (QB rating 99.9 vs 101.8) under much more pressure than Ryan faced. And had the refs called the pass interference on Josh Wilson on the last play the numbers would've heavily favored Joe.
[/quote]
I have to agree with that. It seems as though few people mention that Ryan was under virtually no pressure for most of the game, while the Ravens o-line was ... well let's just say they didn't have quite as good of a performance.

[RL52TheGreatest]

[quote name='T3hRaven' timestamp='1303229297' post='667048']
Joe isn't allowed to audible, so that's not necessarily his fault in that respect. When it comes down to it, his only mistake in that game was the pick, and he still drove us down for the score with barely any time left. [i]Barring the unfortunate collapse of our defense in the final minutes of the game, and a clear penalty from Roddy White, we would have won that game.[/i]

It is true that Flacco has to elevate his game, especially in the playoffs, but it's pretty well established that he's being handicapped in the offense right now. Maybe Harbs will unleash him next year, maybe we'll be stuck with the same mediocre offense, I don't know. I do believe that when the offensive scheme is fixed Flacco will show more of what he's capable of.
[/quote]
Exactly. It's also worth mentioning the atrocious first half of that game where our O-line played terrible and couldn't give Joe any time to throw. All things considered, Ryan was lucky to win that game.

As for the whole "who's going to the Super Bowl first" argument: the Ravens have the much better defense right now so I'll go with Flacco. It's more about the teams than individual players in determining who's gonna get that ring first and as we all know, defense wins championships. Atlanta needs to address some needs on their D if they want to get there any time soon especially considering that they'll probably have to go through Aaron Rodgers in the process.

[Bltravens]

As good as the Falcons are, theyve laid to absolute eggs in their playoff appearances with Ryan. Yes they lost to eventual Super Bowl teams, but the Packers threw up like 50 points on them and Ryan threw like 3 ints.

[berad]

[quote name='Bltravens' timestamp='1303248130' post='667217']
As good as the Falcons are, theyve laid to absolute eggs in their playoff appearances with Ryan. Yes they lost to eventual Super Bowl teams, but the Packers threw up like 50 points on them and Ryan threw like 3 ints.
[/quote]

That pick-six at the end of the first half was horrible. The game was decided on that play, if not before.

[Bltravens]

[quote name='berad' timestamp='1303248219' post='667220']
That pick-six at the end of the first half was horrible. The game was decided on that play, if not before.
[/quote]
So telegraphed lol, he didnt take his eyes off White that entire play.

[Ravenseconbeast]

Ryan is better. He has leadership in him, and his willing to carry the load on his back when chips falls down. Skill-set wise, both are decent QBs. They both have trouble dealing with blitz, maybe Flacco is worse but not by far. If majority of our aging defense starts leaving, Flacco's career will be done for.

[hawkprey]

[quote name='Ravenseconbeast' timestamp='1303248467' post='667225']
Ryan is better. He has leadership in him, and his willing to carry the load on his back when chips falls down. Skill-set wise, both are decent QBs. They both have trouble dealing with blitz, maybe Flacco is worse but not by far. If majority of our aging defense starts leaving, Flacco's career will be done for.
[/quote]

Just decent? Flacco worse against the blitz? Sorry, but this post is completely wrong. Flacco is the leader of our offense just like Ryan is the leader of his. Both are statistically better against the blitz according to [url="http://www.aolnews.com/2010/12/16/which-quarterbacks-handle-the-blitz-best/"]this link[/url], which is certainly a more credible source than you.

And your last statement is pure BS. "Aging defense"? The majority of our defense is NOT leaving. The majority of EVERYONE ON EARTH is aging. What are you trying to say? That when Ray leaves Flacco will stop winning? Because we still have the same talent scouts that drafted Ray, Ed, Sizzle, and Ngata working to bring more superstars to our D. Not to mention they're all be here for at least a few more years.

[mgridda]

[quote name='FerrariFan87' timestamp='1303229479' post='667049']
To be fair, we get the Bungles and Browns twice a year as well while Ryan has to face the Bucs and Saints... so the competition each faces is pretty even if you think about it. For me, this debate begins and ends with playoff wins. Flacco has 4, Ryan has ZERO. Ergo, Flacco has a better chance of getting the the Super Bowl first.
[/quote]

The competition may be fair for teams as the Saints offense is very good, but it's not fair for the Quarterbacks. Ryan faces the Saints defense, Bucs defense and Panthers defense.

Flacco faces the Steelers defense, Bengals defense and Browns defense.

Not exactly even, unfortunately. Furthermore, Roddy White is one of - if not the - best receivers in the game today. He's a complete and true #1.

I can't believe we drafted Mark Clayton over him. What happened there? Did we value character and intelligence too much?

[theFRANCHISE]

[quote name='mgridda' timestamp='1303259947' post='667452']
Furthermore, Roddy White is one of - if not the - best receivers in the game today. He's a complete and true #1.

I can't believe we drafted Mark Clayton over him. What happened there? Did we value character and intelligence too much?
[/quote]
Clayton was a quality receiver in his first two seasons until he got hurt. Nagging injuries and issues in his personal life were a huge detriment to his game. It was only in 2009 that he started to get re-focused, and then he had a promising 2010 until he got hurt.