2008-2010 Baltimore Ravens: What Have They Lacked?

[H8R]

So, let me preface by saying these are only my opionions!
Let's specifically look at The Harbaugh/Flacco Era.

2008: Lack of experience in critical situations especially on the offensive side of the ball. A young QB traveling to what at that time was uncharted territory, supplied a valiant effort but just not enough to get the Ravens past Pittsburgh. Ultimatly, the season was ended at the hands of inexperience.


2009: Lack of composure. The Baltimore Ravens set all-time team records in total penalties and total yards. The Ravens were at the top in the league for penalties of 15 yards or more ( PI, PF etc). A year that ended with the nemisis in Indy. Once again, mental blunders and lack of offensive prowess doomed the Ravens. Many games were blown by penalties and boneheaded blow ups.


2010: Lack of explosive physical attributes. I'll say it like this, we may have been the slowest Ravens team to date (Speed, agility etc). When Derrick Mason is the fastest utilized WR in your line-up, you have a problem. Especially when your young RB keeps falling on his face time after time (Balance) and the O line gets manhandled often (Strength). The Ravens have been built on a physical brand of Football but FAILED to deliver this year. The running game may have been the biggest let down. Towards the bottom of the league in YPC ( yars per Carry) doesn't cut it.
Lets not forget the defense, nothing was more sad watching our slow linebackers getting exploited on the edge or trying to cover an athletic TE. Do we even need to talk about our 4th quarter collapses? Games that were in the bag that the defense handed over the lead? Yet another season ended by the Black and Yellow.

[Alexir]

Lack of consistency sums up the Harbaugh/Flacco years. Flashes of greatness mixed with average play and a sprinkle of what the heck.

[Corvus]

I think those are some excellent generalization H8R and I agree with all of them.

Now, this is off subject, but your avatar of Javier Bardem as Anton Chigur looks crazy. Is that from the actual film? He looks like an action figure or something, heh...

[grape drank]

[quote name='Alexir' timestamp='1299764335' post='651329']
Lack of consistency sums up the Harbaugh/Flacco years. Flashes of greatness mixed with average play and a sprinkle of what the heck.
[/quote]
hahaha sprinkles of what the heck is saying it VERY politely, I was far more belligerent on that gong show 2nd half vs the steelers...I was sitting in a room FULL of steelers fans with the biggest smile on my face, and over the course of 5 minutes and 3 turn overs later I was just about in tears...

[Alexir]

[quote name='grape drank' timestamp='1299769291' post='651354']
hahaha sprinkles of what the heck is saying it VERY politely, I was far more belligerent on that gong show 2nd half vs the steelers...I was sitting in a room FULL of steelers fans with the biggest smile on my face, and over the course of 5 minutes and 3 turn overs later I was just about in tears...
[/quote]

Yeah all my friends were celebrating after the first half. I was worried. I told them it's not over yet and that we will find a way to blow it "Like every single Steeler game" and sure enough....

[Jamal]

Lets see:
- Ever since AT left, we haven't found someone who could take pressure off of Suggs
- Flacco is still very young and was a supposedly project, so I can't help but be pleased with his progress
- Other than 2008, we've never really had a very good OC or DC
- Our WR's do not compliment each other
- Our CB's have been average since the departure of C-Mac
- We line up scrubs next to Ray Lewis

[gabefergy]

I agree with everything Jamal said and most of what the OP observed.

In 2010 the biggest concerns I saw were on the offensive side of the ball. I agree that team speed was poor. That combined with questionable play-calling, poor O-line performance, and bone-headed mistakes/penalties held us back from being a SB team. All that said we still [i]almost[/i] made it.

In my opinion the defense really carried the team this year. You can criticize the pass-rush and the 3rd and 19 play, but the D kept us in every game when the offense was sputtering or turning over the ball.

[Suggs Package]

@Jamal

1.) True, but it was moreso Trevor Pryce creating that pressure. I'd argue the decline of Pryce had much more of an impact than the loss of AT.

2.)I agree

3.) I know how much most of you guys want Cam outta here, I think he's one of the best OCs in the NFL. What he did with our offense in 2008 was probably one of the best jobs I'd ever seen, considering our roster. How many times are you gonna see a 2nd and 3rd yr QB from a D1-AA school put up numbers like that? Steve McNair took seven years to put up Joe Flacco numbers. I think Cam deserves some credit.

4.)I also agree, but good WRs do not grow on trees so you have to get the best ones possible in your price range. If we loaded up on tall fast WRs, we probably be arguing about how much our Defensive Line sucks. Also, we could have Kansas City's WRs haha. I would've liked to see Boldin and TJ on the outside and Mason in the slot on 3WR sets, but Joe depends on Mason too much.

5.)False - Our CBs have played far above avg in the last few years. Josh Wilson and Foxworth have played like top 15 CB for us these past couple of years. Carr is underrated in coverage as well. Look them up on Profootballfocus or advanced nfl stats, etc. Also, Landry is probably one of the top 10 safeties in the league, he's much better than Jimmy Leonhard.

6.) True, we ran outta money to pay everyone haha. I would like to see JJ move inside where he doesn't need the straight line speed and Kindle outside if he gets healthy.

[justifythegame]

All 3 of those years the offense has made huge impovements if you consider where we were pass attack wise during the billick era. What we truly has lack of was a pass rush. I mean go back to 06 we got 60 sacks, last year we had 27. And i don't think its directly related to players either, Ryan knew how to take people off the bench and produce a pass rush and make them into name players. It was greg mattison holding us back with his awful schemes.

[Jamal]

[quote name='Suggs Package' timestamp='1299781792' post='651426']
@Jamal

1.) True, but it was moreso Trevor Pryce creating that pressure. I'd argue the decline of Pryce had much more of an impact than the loss of AT.

2.)I agree

3.) I know how much most of you guys want Cam outta here, I think he's one of the best OCs in the NFL. What he did with our offense in 2008 was probably one of the best jobs I'd ever seen, considering our roster. How many times are you gonna see a 2nd and 3rd yr QB from a D1-AA school put up numbers like that? Steve McNair took seven years to put up Joe Flacco numbers. I think Cam deserves some credit.

4.)I also agree, but good WRs do not grow on trees so you have to get the best ones possible in your price range. If we loaded up on tall fast WRs, we probably be arguing about how much our Defensive Line sucks. Also, we could have Kansas City's WRs haha. I would've liked to see Boldin and TJ on the outside and Mason in the slot on 3WR sets, but Joe depends on Mason too much.

5.)False - Our CBs have played far above avg in the last few years. Josh Wilson and Foxworth have played like top 15 CB for us these past couple of years. Carr is underrated in coverage as well. Look them up on Profootballfocus or advanced nfl stats, etc. Also, Landry is probably one of the top 10 safeties in the league, he's much better than Jimmy Leonhard.

6.) True, we ran outta money to pay everyone haha. I would like to see JJ move inside where he doesn't need the straight line speed and Kindle outside if he gets healthy.
[/quote]

1. Thats definitely a good point. The decline of Pryce really hurt the pass-rush as well.

3. How in the bleep is Cam one of the best OC's in the NFL? Every OC has that 1 year. I mean theres a reason hes in the NFL. Other than 2008 what exactly has he done? Also, I think a big chunk of the credit goes to Hugh Jackson, who I'd much rather have as the OC, since him and Flacco actually get along. I am tired of explaining why Cam is such a bad OC, so really no point in brining it up again unless you really insist.

4. I'm not asking for 3 all-pro WR's. Just a group that actually compliments each other. You know maybe a WR whose more than just a possession type.

5. Foxworth got burnt for most of the season. But really turned it around by the end of the season. Who knows if we see that again after the ACL tear. Wilson started off the same way, but did improve down the stretch. Carr was pretty bad last year, but improved this year. As a whole, they were slightly above average at best. But I will say, I'm pretty happy with a core of Foxworth, Wilson, and Webb/Carr with another pass-rusher. The lack of one, has made them look average a lot of times.

6. I've heard some say this, but I can't see JJ moving to ILB. He'd have to lose around 10 pounds, and hes used to putting his hands on the ground. Thats too hard a change for a 30 year old. A DE transition would be a lot easier for him. If you ask me, I think hes fine where hes at. Hes a solid 2 down LB at this point. As for ILB, how about we just take one early or get an above average one via FA.

[Greatness]

2008

- As you said, we lacked experience.

2009

- Injuries, discipline and it just wasn't in the cards.

2010

- Competent Coaches from Harbaugh all the way down. That team was built for a Superbowl win and I honestly believe if we had someone else at the helm, we would have reached our goal. We went 12-4 in spite of the coaching. Talent alone got us there. Yes, that's an indictment on Harbs and his staff, but hopefully they'll rectify the situation this year as I do like him, Killa Cam and Pag.

[berad]

[quote name='Greatness' timestamp='1299790214' post='651513']
2008

- As you said, we lacked experience.

2009

- Injuries, discipline and it just wasn't in the cards.

2010

- [b]Competent[/b] Coaches from Harbaugh all the way down. That team was built for a Superbowl win and I honestly believe if we had someone else at the helm, we would have reached our goal. We went 12-4 in spite of the coaching. Talent alone got us there. Yes, that's an indictment on Harbs and his staff, but hopefully they'll rectify the situation this year as I do like him, Killa Cam and Pag.
[/quote]

Don't think that word means what you think it does.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='justifythegame' timestamp='1299784284' post='651454']
All 3 of those years the offense has made huge impovements if you consider where we were pass attack wise during the billick era. What we truly has lack of was a pass rush. I mean go back to 06 we got 60 sacks, last year we had 27. [b]And i don't think its directly related to players either, Ryan knew how to take people off the bench and produce a pass rush and make them into name players. It was greg mattison holding us back with his awful schemes.[/b]
[/quote]

How wasn't it directly related to the players? And what players did Rex take off the bench to produce a pass rush? The team's leaders in sacks, Pryce, Thomas, Suggs and Bart, were all starters.

Mattison's conservative schemes were an issue but during his two seasons here, there wasn't a single pass rusher other than Suggs on par with Pryce and Thomas in '06 either.

[codizzle]

[quote name='Greatness' timestamp='1299790214' post='651513']

2010
- Competent Coaches from Harbaugh all the way down. That team was built for a Superbowl win and I honestly believe if we had someone else at the helm, we would have reached our goal. We went 12-4 in spite of the coaching. Talent alone got us there. Yes, that's an indictment on Harbs and his staff, but hopefully they'll rectify the situation this year as I do like him, Killa Cam and Pag.
[/quote]
competent fail ha

[Purple Punishment]

we have lacked playing to our potential. however we have never really had an offense that clicked or produced. these things take time and we have had setbacks in injuries. coaching philosophy by the o and d coords. have been an issue in terms of us finishing off teams in close games.

[Ed_Reed20]

To answer the topic question, consistent quality QB play has been an issue all three seasons. I'm not dumping the team's failure to win a Super Bowl entirely on Flacco, as other issues have been well-documented by other posters. However, in the final game of all three seasons, Joe was unable to elevate his level of play.

It'd unreasonable to expect a rookie QB to do so against a very good defense in a conference title game. With the injuries, he was dealing with in '09, it's no surprise he couldn't lead the team to glory either.

This past season though, the results should have been better. There were extenuating circumstances such as very suspect play-calling, a leaky o-line, an inefficient running game and slow receivers. But still, there were also slow reads, misreads, missed throws, failure to feel the rush and other mistakes by Joe.

Maybe the team would have gone on to win it all had other shortcomings not been as glaring. Regardless, the better Joe gets, the less those problems should hurt the team and prevent them from winning it all in my opinion.

[Suggs Package]

Besides Champ, Ndamdi, Darrell, and Charles Woodson, every CB is being burnt in this day and age. I'm not saying we have superstars, but our DBs have been playing a lot better than they get credit for. You don't have the 5th best passer rating against unless ur CBs are playing outta their minds. Especially when the 4 other teams ahead you average 45 sacks a year and we only had 27. A lot of that probably lead to Chuck Pagano getting the nod for our DC.

There were plans to play JJ at ILB at times last year before Kindle's injury. I'm not saying he's a every down ILB.

Overall I think people are overreacting about how many issues we have. Just because we lost to the Steelers in the playoffs doesn't mean Joe isn't the answer, or our offensive line is bad, or our coordinators don't know what they're doing, etc; it just mean we simply lost a game. I know it's nice to think we will win the SB every year, but in this age, that's not realistic. We've gone to the playoffs 3 years in a row during a time where we're supposed to be rebuilding. We're still growing as a team I think the matchups dictated the Super Bowl participants moreso than the talent, although it didn't look like anyone were gonna beat the packers.

[codizzle]

[quote name='Suggs Package' timestamp='1299793958' post='651553']

Overall I think people are overreacting about how many issues we have.
[/quote]
Amen

[H8R]

Good stuff guys. By no means was my original post supposed to encompass all of the ravens flaws, no matter how big or small. I was trying to summarize out last 3 seasons.

I think we have a long window of opportunity, some don't feel the same but I do. We have plenty of youth sprinkled into our roster. We just need to focus on finding replacements for our FUTURE HOF'ERS and continue to groom the offense.

Honestly, the only thing separating our defense from Pittsburgh is the pass rush. We need to find Sizzles counter part. Their corners have been as bad or worse then ours in recent years.

[Greatness]

Incompetent, typo, hah... but you all know what I meant! And you know it to be true. Our Coaching staff stopped us from gaining a Superbowl this year.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='Greatness' timestamp='1299874165' post='652053']
Incompetent, typo, hah... but you all know what I meant! [b]And you know it to be true. Our Coaching staff stopped us from gaining a Superbowl this year.[/b]
[/quote]

So a lack of execution in key situations had nothing to do with the team failing to achieve it's goal?

[FerrariFan87]

A true number one WR and a competent offensive coordinator.

[Guest ArmyRaven52]

I think that too many people are blaming the pass rush. Is it an area that could be improved upon no question about it. I think a lot of people are using the old school methodology of pass rush. Lets take a loot at the jets or packers. Bothe teams have lockdown corners and great supporting casts in the secondary. This is what helps their pass rush, coverage sacks were a huge part of their defense. When the Jets blitz they have guys on BOTH sides that can cover just about any reciever tandem in the league. This forces their opposing quareterbacks to have to go down their progression which takes that extra second for pressure to arrive. In my opinion the lack of a shutdown corner was our biggest problem this year. If we would have had that then suggs would have had more time to get there along with whoever we sent on the blitz. Would it be great to have both sure but talent on the back end is still talent. If they have to rely on a pass rush where does that leave them.

On Offense again I think we need a young speed demon. If you take the top off of defenses then they can no longer put eight in the box and blitz us all day like most teams have been accustomed to doing. We do have talent at reciever but we dont have the talent that compliments it. So with the addition of a young speedster (leonard hankerson anyone) who stretches defense the o line wont deal with as much pressure allowing joe time to find the open reciever. It would also helop out ray rice because he would not have to fight through an eight man line to get some space. As far as cam goes he is a good OC, but not for our system we are a physical offense anywhere he went he had finesse players and speed demons we are a balanced offense and he does not understand the kind of offense he is in charge of, hopefully this year john harbaugh can reel him in and expalin what direction the offense should go in order to maximize the skills sets we have on OUR offense.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='ArmyRaven52' timestamp='1299952102' post='652634']
[b]I think that too many people are blaming the pass rush. Is it an area that could be improved upon no question about it. I think a lot of people are using the old school methodology of pass rush. Lets take a loot at the jets or packers. Bothe teams have lockdown corners and great supporting casts in the secondary. This is what helps their pass rush, coverage sacks were a huge part of their defense. When the Jets blitz they have guys on BOTH sides that can cover just about any reciever tandem in the league. This forces their opposing quareterbacks to have to go down their progression which takes that extra second for pressure to arrive. In my opinion the lack of a shutdown corner was our biggest problem this year. If we would have had that then suggs would have had more time to get there along with whoever we sent on the blitz. Would it be great to have both sure but talent on the back end is still talent. If they have to rely on a pass rush where does that leave them.[/b]

On Offense again I think we need a young speed demon. If you take the top off of defenses then they can no longer put eight in the box and blitz us all day like most teams have been accustomed to doing. We do have talent at reciever but we dont have the talent that compliments it. [b]So with the addition of a young speedster (leonard hankerson anyone)[/b] who stretches defense the o line wont deal with as much pressure allowing joe time to find the open reciever. It would also helop out ray rice because he would not have to fight through an eight man line to get some space. As far as cam goes he is a good OC, but not for our system we are a physical offense anywhere he went he had finesse players and speed demons we are a balanced offense and he does not understand the kind of offense he is in charge of, hopefully this year john harbaugh can reel him in and expalin what direction the offense should go in order to maximize the skills sets we have on OUR offense.
[/quote]

Both the Packers and Jets are exceptions, not the norm. How many teams in the league can boast talent in the secondary on par with them? Very few.

As good as GB's secondary is, they weren't second in the league wth 47(just 1 behind the Steelers) sacks in 2010 primarily because of good coverage. Mattews, Jenkins and Raji all recorded at least 6.5 sacks and consitently brought pressure, regardless of whether opposing players were covered.

You can apply the same logic to the Jets in that very few teams boast the talent they do in the secondary. While they didn't have a single, dominant pass rusher like Matthews, three of their payers recorded at least 5 sacks. Two others combined for 8.5. Like the Packers, above average coverage helpd but the Jets also had players who could take advantage of it and get to the QB.

On the Ravens, the team' runner-up in sacks after Suggs was Haloti with 5.5. After him, it was Redding with 3.0.

There were more than a few times I saw QBs standing in the pocket agaist the Ravens and even be able to move around as they scanned the field, but Ravens pass rushers simplh didn't beat their men enough.

A shutdown CB and/or more aggressive play-calling may have led to a few more sacks but the best way to improve the pass would be drafting an actual pass rusher to complement Suggs(even with the cautious optimism surrounding Kindle) in my opinion.

I don't have the statstics but I don't believe teams like the Dolphins, Titans, Rams, Lions, Giants, Chargers and even Steelers(teams all in the top 10 in sacks) got sigfiantly better play from their secondary than the Ravens. So what was the difference between them and this team? Better pass rushing personnel.

Another factor to consider is coverage by the LBs. We all love Ray but the team doesn't have him in man coverage often for obvious reasons and the rest of the LBs were all inconsitent in coverage at best. This obviously hurt the D.

As for Hankerson, I wouln't describe him as a "speeedster", but he'd make a good 2nd round pick.

[Guest ArmyRaven52]

@ Ed, I agree with you on those defenses not being the norm, however josh wilson was as good as a number two corner as i have seen last year in the league. So add Jimmy Smith who is a big, fast, and physical corner who can play man bump and run coverage with almost anybody, I feel rather confident that our personnell could at least rival if not out perform those other two defenses. With the titans they had cortland finnegan, chris hope, and michael griffin which is to say the least an above average seconday. Verner on the other side is really nothing to complain about but he is no pro bowler either. They dont have that much for pass rushers but they still had m9ore sacks than we did. they did not have nearly the interior d line we did or the talent at any other position really except their secondary. while they had no stand out pass rusher which you pointed out by stating their low sack totals which leads me to believe that it was due to by in large their secondary, because if there was anybody that good at pass rushing on their team the number would have been a lot better than..

The dolphins you are correct they have a better core of pass rushers than we do although nobody that can match suggs. And while their corners dont get a lot of press they are very good, they had less sacks than the titans and yet allowed less passing yards so again outstanding corner play really led to koa misi, jason taylor, and cameron wake, aside from wake nobody got over five the team average was three. This is a lot like the ravens sack totals but they had more coverage sacks.

The Rams and the lions are the cream of the crop of crappy divisions so none of that really surprises me. The lions however do have one hell of a nose tackle which the rest of the team feeds of of and honestly they have a better D coordinator than we did last year by far(definitely not say to see him go, hopefully ihm and cam catch the same bus.)

As for the giants you are absolutely right they have better pass rushing personell than we do(which is a reason i like kiwanuka).

I am not saying that pass rush could not be improved but a better group of CB's will not be seen for a long time so we should cash that in now and not have to worry about it for ten years, almost every year there are five or six guys who can rush the passer, and if we had a lcokdown corner we would not need someone outstanding. This is a rare draft and we should take advantage this draft has all of our team weaknesses as their strengths so we should definitely draft skill positions this years and then next year go after that pass rusher while jimmy smith has that year under his belt to become one of the top 10 corners in the league.

[justifythegame]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' timestamp='1299790625' post='651516']
How wasn't it directly related to the players? And what players did Rex take off the bench to produce a pass rush? The team's leaders in sacks, Pryce, Thomas, Suggs and Bart, were all starters.

Mattison's conservative schemes were an issue but during his two seasons here, there wasn't a single pass rusher other than Suggs on par with Pryce and Thomas in '06 either.
[/quote]
We went into the drafts those years looking for starters, however a lot of those needs didnt fall in line with BPA, and some of them that did ended up busts like LB cody. Those guy u mentioned were not starters, we took those guys off the bench and made them into starters. Thats why all of those players are garbage when they went and played for other defenses, and of the ones u mentioned specifically AD and Scott.

If you want to talk about Pryce, he lead our team in sacks the year before...and what did the coaching think of that? They cut him because Mattison refused to use him in his boring packages because he was an agist piece of crap and Pryce went on to play for Ryan.

Jameel McClain had a ton of potential as a pass rushing outside LB. He looked like he was going to be a playmaker, and what did mattison do with his talent? turn him into a crappy mlb and bench ellerbe. Paul Kruger has all the instincts of a OLB. He primarly played 43 DE but he has experience dropping back, and what does the coaching do? They stick his undersized body into a DE where he got dominated and overpowered by guards and tackles, he looks lost at times because he doesnt even know how how to play the position. Don't even get me started with us cutting our best pure pass (opposite suggs)in Barnes who now replaced Merriman in SD. The players are there but Mattison has no business coordinating a 34 defense in the nfl. These players have enough talent to produce with any competent DC let alone rex ryan. We'll just have to wait and cross our fingers on the new DC...at least he isn't Harbs dads best friend so perhaps he hired him because he is competent.

[berad]

[quote name='justifythegame' timestamp='1300039385' post='653141']
We went into the drafts those years looking for starters, however a lot of those needs didnt fall in line with BPA, and some of them that did ended up busts like LB cody. Those guy u mentioned were not starters, we took those guys off the bench and made them into starters. Thats why all of those players are garbage when they went and played for other defenses, and of the ones u mentioned specifically AD and Scott.[/quote]

They were starters... Thomas had 39 starts between 2002-2004 including all of 2004, Suggs started all of 2004, and Bart Scott only started and played in 2005 because of the injury to Ray. Pryce was an FA pick-up and was a great player before Ryan was even the DL coach of the Ravens.

[quote name='justifythegame' timestamp='1300039385' post='653141']
If you want to talk about Pryce, he lead our team in sacks the year before...and what did the coaching think of that? They cut him because Mattison refused to use him in his boring packages because he was an agist piece of crap and Pryce went on to play for Ryan.[/quote]

Pryce did less for the Jets than he did here, in 2010. It wasn't a bad move to cut him, he was ineffective.

An "agist piece of crap"? They only thing funnier than the invalidity of that claim is the misspelling of it.

[quote name='justifythegame' timestamp='1300039385' post='653141']
Jameel McClain had a ton of potential as a pass rushing outside LB. He looked like he was going to be a playmaker, and what did mattison do with his talent? turn him into a crappy mlb and bench ellerbe.[/quote]

McClain isn't a crappy MLB, he's pretty decent. While he may have been better at OLB, would he have been more effective than Johnson?

[quote name='justifythegame' timestamp='1300039385' post='653141']
Paul Kruger has all the instincts of a OLB. He primarly played 43 DE but he has experience dropping back, and what does the coaching do? They stick his undersized body into a DE where he got dominated and overpowered by guards and tackles, he looks lost at times because he doesnt even know how how to play the position.[/quote]

Kruger plays in some of our 4-man fronts, too, but still looks lost an ineffective. Less about the scheme, more about the player.

[quote name='justifythegame' timestamp='1300039385' post='653141']
Don't even get me started with us cutting our best pure pass (opposite suggs)in Barnes who now replaced Merriman in SD.[/quote]

We didn't cut Barnes, we traded him.

If the Chargers wanted 4.5 sacks and 10 tackles in 11 games, they would've just kept Merriman. Or is that what you meant? Barnes replaced the awful, steroidless-Meriman, not the good Merriman.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='ArmyRaven52' timestamp='1300030582' post='653093']
@ Ed, I agree with you on those defenses not being the norm, however josh wilson was as good as a number two corner as i have seen last year in the league. So add Jimmy Smith who is a big, fast, and physical corner who can play man bump and run coverage with almost anybody, I feel rather confident that our personnell could at least rival if not out perform those other two defenses. With the titans they had cortland finnegan, chris hope, and michael griffin which is to say the least an above average seconday. Verner on the other side is really nothing to complain about but he is no pro bowler either. They dont have that much for pass rushers but they still had m9ore sacks than we did. they did not have nearly the interior d line we did or the talent at any other position really except their secondary. while they had no stand out pass rusher which you pointed out by stating their low sack totals which leads me to believe that it was due to by in large their secondary, because if there was anybody that good at pass rushing on their team the number would have been a lot better than..

The dolphins you are correct they have a better core of pass rushers than we do although nobody that can match suggs. And while their corners dont get a lot of press they are very good, they had less sacks than the titans and yet allowed less passing yards so again outstanding corner play really led to koa misi, jason taylor, and cameron wake, aside from wake nobody got over five the team average was three. This is a lot like the ravens sack totals but they had more coverage sacks.

The Rams and the lions are the cream of the crop of crappy divisions so none of that really surprises me. The lions however do have one hell of a nose tackle which the rest of the team feeds of of and honestly they have a better D coordinator than we did last year by far(definitely not say to see him go, hopefully ihm and cam catch the same bus.)

As for the giants you are absolutely right they have better pass rushing personell than we do(which is a reason i like kiwanuka).

I am not saying that pass rush could not be improved but a better group of CB's will not be seen for a long time so we should cash that in now and not have to worry about it for ten years, almost every year there are five or six guys who can rush the passer, and if we had a lcokdown corner we would not need someone outstanding. This is a rare draft and we should take advantage this draft has all of our team weaknesses as their strengths so we should definitely draft skill positions this years and then next year go after that pass rusher while jimmy smith has that year under his belt to become one of the top 10 corners in the league.
[/quote]

His character issues aside, I don't see the point in drafting Jimmy Smith in the 1st round when the team has Foxworth and Webb under contract and could easily re-sign Wilson or Carr. Even if neither is re-signed, the CB class is relatively deep and a quality one could be drafted beyond the first two rounds.

The Titans have some recognizable names in the secondary but they actually do have quality pass rushers. The majority of their front four is undersized, better built to get after the QB than stop the run, a big reason why they were 20th in run D last season. Also, they [i]did[/i] have a standout pass rusher in [b]Jason Babin[/b], who went to the Pro Bowl with 12.5 sacks. Behind him, Dave Ball collected 7 and a number of others had at least 3 sacks.

I'm not sure if you know but Cameron Wake racked up [i]more[/i] sacks than Suggs during the regular season. The Dolphins' CBs did perform well and you make a strong argument that a good number of the sacks the D recorded came because of good coverage. Again though, pass rushers still have to actually get to the QB, even if their teammates are playing good coverage behind them. And Miami's players were better doing that than those on the Ravens.

[b]Jason Taylor[/b] didn't play for the Dolphins last season.

The Lions and Rams were [b]NOT[/b] the "cream of the crop in crappy divisions". Neither even won their division.

Suh obviously helped Detroit's pass rush but so did Vanden Bosch, Avril, McBride, and Jackson all of whom recorded at least 4 sacks. Even rotational d-lineman like Corey Williams and Sammie Lee Hill recorded more sacks Jarret Johnson. Their scheme and defensive coordinator were likely factors but again, they had the players to make it work.

Another example of strong pass rushing personnel helping a secondary is the Steelers. Polamalu and Taylor are good players but as we saw in the Super Bowl(and a few times during the season), when Harrison and Woodley had quiet games, the D got worked.

I'm aware this year's CB draft class is very talented. Like I said before, it'd make sense to take one early if the team didn't feel comfortable they'd retrain Wilson [i]and[/i] Carr. However, if just one is signed, there would be no reason to draft a CB early in my opinion.

Whatever happens, the team can't afford not to address the pass within the first three rounds of this year's draft.

[quote name='justifythegame' timestamp='1300039385' post='653141']
We went into the drafts those years looking for starters, however a lot of those needs didnt fall in line with BPA, and some of them that did ended up busts like LB cody. Those guy u mentioned were not starters, we took those guys off the bench and made them into starters. Thats why all of those players are garbage when they went and played for other defenses, and of the ones u mentioned specifically AD and Scott.

If you want to talk about Pryce, he lead our team in sacks the year before...and what did the coaching think of that? They cut him because Mattison refused to use him in his boring packages because he was an agist piece of crap and Pryce went on to play for Ryan.

Jameel McClain had a ton of potential as a pass rushing outside LB. He looked like he was going to be a playmaker, and what did mattison do with his talent? turn him into a crappy mlb and bench ellerbe. Paul Kruger has all the instincts of a OLB. He primarly played 43 DE but he has experience dropping back, and what does the coaching do? They stick his undersized body into a DE where he got dominated and overpowered by guards and tackles, he looks lost at times because he doesnt even know how how to play the position. Don't even get me started with us cutting our best pure pass (opposite suggs)in Barnes who now replaced Merriman in SD. The players are there but Mattison has no business coordinating a 34 defense in the nfl. These players have enough talent to produce with any competent DC let alone rex ryan. We'll just have to wait and cross our fingers on the new DC...at least he isn't Harbs dads best friend so perhaps he hired him because he is competent.
[/quote]

Are you serious?

I really don't know what drafts you're referring to so I won't address that point.

The players I mentioned [b]WERE[/b] starters. That you want to argue otherwise is just ludicrous.

Bart became a starter in '05. Thomas was starting from '03. Pryce had been starter his entire career. Suggs...do I even need to say it?

Bart isn't "garbage" with the Jets. He looked very bad against the Steelers but has been a rock for them since he signed. He's not stellar but gets the job done, like he did here. Adalius wasn't bad his season in NE either but injuries and age caught up to him.

Your point about Pryce is terrible. Him being relatively productive in 2009 doesn't mean he didn't fall off the cliff in 2010. In fact, he had already began to decline physically in '09, as Dwan Edwards was playing more snaps than him late in the season. This past campaign, he was obviously done. What did he do for the Jets other than record a safety after jumping off-sides?

I've never agreed with the decision to transition Jameel to ILB, so we agree there. However, I'm not going to blame Mattison's solely for that with no proof to suggest it was his call. I'm certainly not going to blame him for benching Ellerbe either. Ellerbe was in [b]Harbaugh[/b]'s doghouse, not Mattison's. I didn't like that he was inactive for so long but that's another issue.

Trying to transition Kruger and trading away Barnes were questionable moves. However, Kruger isn't exactly the greatest athlete and you wonder if he could thrive at rush LB. As for Barnes, he was relatively productive in San Diego but he did [b]NOT[/b] replace Merriman's production from a few years ago. Shaun Phillips did that.

[baltravens]

Analytically speaking, for the 2010 season, THE LACK of a ball-controlling or powerful running game mainly due to a weakened offensive line that was shuffled around. Add weak play-calling by Cameron that also adversely affected the offense.

The defense, well, you guys hit it on the head: a weak pass rush, opposite of what we had in the Rex Ryan era.