Harbaugh Signs New Contract Today

[Bltravens]

[quote name='BloodRaven' timestamp='1297782427' post='640113']
Here's hoping he can get the players to fight for him instead of fight for their paychecks. It remains to be seen if his record is a result of his coaching methods or the deep talent we have on the squad.
[/quote]
All coaches have talented players on their team, no coach wins with total plugs simply because he's a great coach.

Having said that I still dont think it was smart for Harbaugh to throw all his eggs in the Cameron basket. Even if Cam was a great OC isn't it just smart business to not have to rely on anyone else but yourself for job security?

[justifythegame]

Harbs is a good coach, but how do we know he won't be just like his mentor Andy Reid who can get the to the playoffs but can't win it all. Billick got it done immediately, and while it was not all directly related to billick, one of the primary things that make you a good coach is getting good coaches around you. Harbaugh on the other hand has hired family friends like Mattison and Rosburg. IMO the new DC might even be worse. While i don't believe Cam should be fired just yet, if he does stink next season do you guys believe HArbaugh would ever fire him... i dont think so. I don't think we needed to give Harbaugh an extension until his contract was up...but thats just my opinion.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='justifythegame' timestamp='1297863719' post='640577']
Harbs is a good coach, but how do we know he won't be just like his mentor Andy Reid who can get the to the playoffs but can't win it all. Billick got it done immediately, and while it was not all directly related to billick, one of the primary things that make you a good coach is getting good coaches around you. Harbaugh on the other hand has hired family friends like Mattison and Rosburg. [b]IMO the new DC might even be worse[/b]. While i don't believe Cam should be fired just yet, if he does stink next season do you guys believe HArbaugh would ever fire him... i dont think so. I don't think we needed to give Harbaugh an extension until his contract was up...but thats just my opinion.
[/quote]

How? The defensive players all seem to be really happy with the Pagano hire. And considering what he did this past season with a secondary many were convinced would be the weak link of the team, I don't see how one could feel he may be a bad coach.

[EnVy_CaLiBeR]

[quote name='justifythegame' timestamp='1297863719' post='640577']
Harbs is a good coach, but how do we know he won't be just like his mentor Andy Reid who can get the to the playoffs but can't win it all. Billick got it done immediately, and while it was not all directly related to billick, one of the primary things that make you a good coach is getting good coaches around you. Harbaugh on the other hand has hired family friends like Mattison and Rosburg. IMO the new DC might even be worse. While i don't believe Cam should be fired just yet, if he does stink next season do you guys believe HArbaugh would ever fire him... i dont think so. I don't think we needed to give Harbaugh an extension until his contract was up...but thats just my opinion.
[/quote]
Pagano seems as though he's going to bring more fire to our defense. Players are already saying he'll be more aggressive.

It's believed the Ravens put fired all scapegoats possible so if Cam does stink it up again, then it'll finally be all on him and he'll be dealt with. Steve Biscotti even put it out there that this was Harbaugh's move. If the offense underachieves again, I seriously doubt our owner will sit by and let it continue for another season if he in fact does stink it up again. In the end, he has the final say. Not Harbaugh.

[Bltravens]

[quote name='justifythegame' timestamp='1297863719' post='640577']
Harbs is a good coach, but how do we know he won't be just like his mentor Andy Reid who can get the to the playoffs but can't win it all. Billick got it done immediately, and while it was not all directly related to billick, one of the primary things that make you a good coach is getting good coaches around you. Harbaugh on the other hand has hired family friends like Mattison and Rosburg. IMO the new DC might even be worse. While i don't believe Cam should be fired just yet, if he does stink next season do you guys believe HArbaugh would ever fire him... i dont think so. I don't think we needed to give Harbaugh an extension until his contract was up...but thats just my opinion.
[/quote]
*cough* Matt Cavanough*cough*

[AsianRice]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' timestamp='1297816169' post='640436']
[b]Didn't realize it was up to him to score alone. [/b]

[/b].
[/quote]

Ok enlighten me that players' success is none to do with the coaches. The offense run well or not based on the coaching skills of Cameron. He's running the show and making all the calls. I know execution is big part of the success on the offense, BUT if you tell a slow guy to beat CB and FS to catch a ball, it's not about execution instead it's a suicide mission. If Cam still doesn't use his players' strength, even with the best players in the world we won't be able to score in the second half.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='AsianRice' timestamp='1297882194' post='640743']
Ok enlighten me that players' success is none to do with the coaches. The offense run well or not based on the coaching skills of Cameron. He's running the show and making all the calls. I know execution is big part of the success on the offense, BUT if you tell a slow guy to beat CB and FS to catch a ball, it's not about execution instead it's a suicide mission. If Cam still doesn't use his players' strength, even with the best players in the world we won't be able to score in the second half.
[/quote]

I never said player success has nothing to do with coaches. And a successful offense is based on a lot more the coaching skills.

Look at the TB game. Cam called a screen to Rice, it was perfectly executed and Ray went about 70 yards for a touchdown. However, a terrible holding call wiped the play off the board and the Ravens didn't score again in the second half. There was the drop in the second Steelers game. Those are only two examples but examples nonetheless of the offense being in position to score touchdowns in the second half but failing because of execution.

The second half TD drought wasn't as simple as players not being utilized correctly.

[AsianRice]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' timestamp='1297883409' post='640754']
I never said player success has nothing to do with coaches. And a successful offense is based on a lot more the coaching skills.

Look at the TB game. Cam called a screen to Rice, it was perfectly executed and Ray went about 70 yards for a touchdown. However, a terrible holding call wiped the play off the board and the Ravens didn't score again in the second half. There was the drop in the second Steelers game. Those are only two examples but examples nonetheless of the offense being in position to score touchdowns in the second half but failing because of execution.

The second half TD drought wasn't as simple as players not being utilized correctly.
[/quote]

It fires back to players' discipline. If you fail, people don't look at you instead they judge whoever was in charge for such a failure. Offensively, we are not playing like a team. It's a coach's job to keep everyone in check or on the same page. Coaches have much bigger responsiblities than players do, especially Cam is in charge of the whole offense.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='AsianRice' timestamp='1297884589' post='640771']
It fires back to players' discipline. If you fail, people don't look at you instead they judge whoever was in charge for such a failure. Offensively, we are not playing like a team. It's a coach's job to keep everyone in check or on the same page. Coaches have much bigger responsiblities than players do, especially Cam is in charge of the whole offense.
[/quote]

How does what I said have to do with discipline?

There were a number of players on offense that simply weren't good enough, especially in key moments. Cam failed spectacularly in a number of areas this season but with all the flaws the offense had in terms of personnel, I'm not convinced they had the potential to be far and way better than they were.

[theblackdog]

[quote name='PuRock' timestamp='1297781329' post='640107']
That's pretty funny. His brother who has never coached and NFL game is getting the bigger contract because he's the 'hot' name. Part of the reason why he's a hot name is because his brother John has had success at the NFL level as well.

John on the other hand. Three straight winning NFL seasons, three straight playoffs and one AFCCG. Talk about a difference in value.
[/quote]

Is it possible that his contract has incentive pay in it that we don't know about?

[justifythegame]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' timestamp='1297872710' post='640647']
How? The defensive players all seem to be really happy with the Pagano hire. And considering what he did this past season with a secondary many were convinced would be the weak link of the team, I don't see how one could feel he may be a bad coach.
[/quote]
I remember reading even more players were happy with the Mattison hire, especially Ray Lewis. It doesn't mean Mattison was the right man for the job. Pagano was doing the playcalling on 3rd down last year, and we were worse on 3rd downs.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='justifythegame' timestamp='1297886553' post='640784']
I remember reading even more players were happy with the Mattison hire, especially Ray Lewis. It doesn't mean Mattison was the right man for the job.
[/quote]

But wasn't he? For all the grief he got, Mattison still fielded good defensive units, even though the talent level on defense was no longer what we've grown accustomed to seeing in Baltimore.

With Pagano, what he did with the secondary this past season alone gives me confidence he'll be a good DC. Another quality pass rusher and a legitimate ILB would make his job easier as well.

[justifythegame]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' timestamp='1297886980' post='640787']
But wasn't he? For all the grief he got, Mattison still fielded good defensive units, even though the talent level on defense was no longer what we've grown accustomed to seeing in Baltimore.

With Pagano, what he did with the secondary this past season alone gives me confidence he'll be a good DC. Another quality pass rusher and a legitimate ILB would make his job easier as well.
[/quote]
We have had the worst defense we have seen in 10 years. This is a franchise that prides themselves on having the #1 defense, sometimes we might fall short by a couple spots but we arguably the best every year, especially run defense. Mattison picked apart that tradition starting with breaking our 100 yard rusher streak that was broken 2 years ago.

[PuRock]

[quote name='justifythegame' timestamp='1297890565' post='640824']
We have had the worst defense we have seen in 10 years. This is a franchise that prides themselves on having the #1 defense, sometimes we might fall short by a couple spots but we arguably the best every year, especially run defense. Mattison picked apart that tradition starting with breaking our 100 yard rusher streak that was broken 2 years ago.
[/quote]

That record was stupid. It should've been broken when Rex was here. There were games where the RBs should have crushed it but ended up injuring themselves before they did. Or there were combination of backs that completed that task. It was impressive when we were shutting down running games, but that started to die off when Rex was still here.

The Giants had 207 total rushing yards against us in 2008.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='justifythegame' timestamp='1297890565' post='640824']
We have had the worst defense we have seen in 10 years. This is a franchise that prides themselves on having the #1 defense, sometimes we might fall short by a couple spots but we arguably the best every year, especially run defense. Mattison picked apart that tradition starting with breaking our 100 yard rusher streak that was broken 2 years ago.
[/quote]

You can't be serious. You're really going to put the defense's decline entirely on Mattison?

So we should ignore the fact the Ravens haven't drafted a defensive player in the 1st round since Haloti, or the fact that Ngata is truly the last consistently good defensive player the team has draft period? Or the fact the team hasn't found capable pass rusher opposite Suggs since Adalius left? I won't do it.

As for "no 100-yard rusher" streak, it became a joke in '08 when the Giants ran all over the defense.

[berad]

[quote name='PuRock' timestamp='1297890810' post='640827']
That record was stupid. It should've been broken when Rex was here. There were games where the RBs should have crushed it but ended up injuring themselves before they did. Or there were combination of backs that completed that task. It was impressive when we were shutting down running games, but that started to die off when Rex was still here.

[b]The Giants had 207 total rushing yards against us in 2008.
[/b][/quote]

Yeah with Bradshaw and Jacobs both having ~90 yards on only a handful of carries. What a terrible game. People tend to forget some of the awful defensive performances when we had Ryan as a coach.

[justifythegame]

[quote name='PuRock' timestamp='1297890810' post='640827']
That record was stupid. It should've been broken when Rex was here. There were games where the RBs should have crushed it but ended up injuring themselves before they did. Or there were combination of backs that completed that task. It was impressive when we were shutting down running games, but that started to die off when Rex was still here.

The Giants had 207 total rushing yards against us in 2008.
[/quote]
this issue is not the record, thats going off on a tangent

[PuRock]

[quote name='berad' timestamp='1297891475' post='640831']
Yeah with Bradshaw and Jacobs both having ~90 yards on only a handful of carries. What a terrible game. People tend to forget some of the awful defensive performances when we had Ryan as a coach.
[/quote]

Yea that game was ugly. I remember all the smack talk going on with the visiting Giants fan. There was a discussion who had the better three headed monster. They shut us up real quick. 30-10 Giants.

Rex's defense was very bi-polar like. Very high highs, very low lows. Mattison brought a more consistent defense.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='justifythegame' timestamp='1297891593' post='640833']
this issue is not the record, thats going off on a tangent
[/quote]

But you brought it up like it had significance. The streak had essentially been made irrelevant the year before.

[PuRock]

[quote name='justifythegame' timestamp='1297891593' post='640833']
this issue is not the record, thats going off on a tangent
[/quote]

Your the one that used it in the basis of your argument. "Mattison picked apart that tradition starting with breaking our 100 yard rusher streak that was broken 2 years ago."

I'm just pointing out that it really should have been broken when Rex was here and our PLAYERS started dying off in the run game.

[berad]

[quote name='PuRock' timestamp='1297891673' post='640835']
Yea that game was ugly. I remember all the smack talk going on with the visiting Giants fan. There was a discussion who had the better three headed monster. They shut us up real quick. 30-10 Giants.

[b]Rex's defense was very bi-polar like. Very high highs, very low lows. Mattison brought a more consistent defense.
[/b][/quote]

I agree with that. Our pass defense got a lot better under Mattison, a lot. Maybe it had something to do with better corners but I think it's more a function of Mattison not gambling every situation away with blitzes when we don't have the pass-rushers to pull it off.

[PuRock]

[quote name='berad' timestamp='1297891860' post='640843']
I agree with that. Our pass defense got a lot better under Mattison, a lot. Maybe it had something to do with better corners but I think it's more a function of Mattison not gambling every situation away with blitzes when we don't have the pass-rushers to pull it off.
[/quote]

That was one of my main concerns with Rex. Its not really a gamble if the other team knows you like to gamble in all situations.

You can only disguise a blitz so much. A good quarterback with a quick release is the death of that defense.

[justifythegame]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' timestamp='1297891724' post='640836']
But you brought it up like it had significance. The streak had essentially been made irrelevant the year before.
[/quote]
No i didn', that was just an example of a general point i was trying to make. We compete with the steelers for the best rush d in football every single year, but mattison has us competing to get into the the top 10. The defense managed to fight for top 10 in spite of mattison because of ozzie's players.

[berad]

[quote name='justifythegame' timestamp='1297892776' post='640855']
No i didn', that was just an example of a general point i was trying to make. We compete with the steelers for the best rush d in football every single year, but mattison has us competing to get into the the top 10. The defense managed to fight for top 10 in spite of mattison because of ozzie's players.
[/quote]

We were the best run defense in the league in 2009.

[PuRock]

[quote name='berad' timestamp='1297893076' post='640857']
We were the best run defense in the league in 2009.
[/quote]

Not to take away from your arguement (I am on your side). But we weren't the best. Statistically speaking we were 5th. You might be looking at the post season stats. We were 1st in rushing defense then. But our overall defense was 3rd.

But that's not Mattison, that's left overs from Rex.

[berad]

[quote name='PuRock' timestamp='1297893665' post='640863']
Not to take away from your arguement (I am on your side). But we weren't the best. Statistically speaking we were 5th. You might be looking at the post season stats. We were 1st in rushing defense then. But our overall defense was 3rd.

But that's not Mattison, that's left overs from Rex.
[/quote]

Well, that's if you look at it based on yards/game. I set it to [color="#0000FF"][url="http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?season=2009&seasonType=REG&defensiveStatisticCategory=RUSHING&d-447263-o=1&conference=ALL&tabSeq=2&role=OPP&d-447263-p=1&d-447263-s=RUSHING_AVERAGE_YARDS&d-447263-n=1"]yards/rush[/url][/color] and, in 2009, we only allowed 3.4 ypc - good for best in the league.

I don't like the volume-based stats (yards/game) because it doesn't factor in how many attempts we faced.

[PuRock]

[quote name='berad' timestamp='1297894017' post='640865']
Well, that's if you look at it based on yards/game. I set it to [color="#0000FF"][url="http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?season=2009&seasonType=REG&defensiveStatisticCategory=RUSHING&d-447263-o=1&conference=ALL&tabSeq=2&role=OPP&d-447263-p=1&d-447263-s=RUSHING_AVERAGE_YARDS&d-447263-n=1"]yards/rush[/url][/color] and, in 2009, we only allowed 3.4 ypc - good for best in the league.

I don't like the volume-based stats (yards/game) because it doesn't factor in how many attempts we faced.
[/quote]

Ahhh. Good stat man you are.

[berad]

[quote name='PuRock' timestamp='1297894436' post='640868']
Ahhh. Good stat man you are.
[/quote]

I'll more often opt for the per-attempt statistics [i](given enough attempts, of course)[/i], even if they're not connotated[i](?)[/i] with terms like "top rusher", "top ___ defense", etc.

[BloodRaven]

[quote name='Bltravens' timestamp='1297826003' post='640492']
All coaches have talented players on their team, no coach wins with total plugs simply because he's a great coach.

Having said that I still dont think it was smart for Harbaugh to throw all his eggs in the Cameron basket. Even if Cam was a great OC isn't it just smart business to not have to rely on anyone else but yourself for job security?
[/quote]

You say that like every team is evenly talented. Some teams will win no matter who is HC, for others the opposite is true. Put Jim Caldwell on the Lions and tell me if they reach the playoffs.

[Bltravens]

[quote name='BloodRaven' timestamp='1297969823' post='641254']
You say that like every team is evenly talented. Some teams will win no matter who is HC, for others the opposite is true. Put Jim Caldwell on the Lions and tell me if they reach the playoffs.
[/quote]
Well Caldwell is the exception not the rule, Caldwell literally does nothing and I don't even know if he even has a specialty. Theres some coaches that calls neither O or D, but will have a heavy background knowledye in defenses or offenses and how they are run.

Really what I meant to say is no great coach wins with sub par talent based on his outstanding coaching alone.