Joe's Not Happy With Zorn Firing

[poedacrow]

@noy...better to head into the [b]offseason[/b] this way...and hope they iron things out before the start of the regular season.

I'll admit the move to oust Zorn is not as perplexing to me as Joe's reaction to it. There's some drama in Ravenland somewhere and it needs to get fixed before the start of the season.

And btw...I became a huge Josh Wilson fan this season and I'm lovin' that sig!

[RavenDude11]

Cam Cameron is the offense, not the players. It's Cam's way. I think that in itself frustrates a lot of the players here. It's becoming more and more evident that the players are starting to lose confidence in the offensive philosophy and possibly (if not already) in the Offensive Coordinator. Joe Flacco's comments in my opinion simply confirm the doubt and frustrations that are being shared in the locker room about how the offense is being orchestrated - mainly Cam Cameron's coaching style and how inept it is. How many times did Mason go off on a coach this year? Was it bcuz he's a "Diva" or because he's the vocal leader on offense voicing the frustrations of others? How many players have been critical of the offense or have been outspoken about not being more involved this season? (Joe Flacco, LeRon, Housh, Mason, Rice, Boldin, McGahee, Stallworth,...) I think another factor that most people are forgetting is the competitive element and the pride that comes along with it.

As a competitor, one thing I know for a fact is losing and pride do not bode well together. And as an offensive unit, im sure there's a growing sense that there pride is being tested. That the blame for the production - or lack there of - is being placed more so on them and not where it should be; the ineptitude of Cam Cameron. If you had to write a book on why the Ravens Offense failed this season it would be entitled "[i]The Ineptitude of Cam Cameron[/i]". It doesnt matter how well, or how poorly you execute a plan...if it's a horrible plan! So it has to be frustrating to these ultra competitive athletes like Joe Flacco and Anquan Boldin to stick with what doesnt work. Now the players have towed the company line each weak by emphasizing the need to "fix" the offensive problems. To "become better". (Which lies on the coaching) But that's only going to go so far b4 the frustrations that are beginning to bubble on the surface, eventually erupt. And if Joe Flacco's public comments are any indicator -- I think it's obvious that the offense is still heading in the wrong direction.

Now, I do have something to say about Zorn. From the outside looking in his firing seems like a good decision. It's obvious Flacco hasnt displayed supreme confidence running this offense. Just from watching the fiasco that went down in Washington with Zorn as their leader, I didnt think he was going to be the guy to help Joe reach that supreme confidence anyway. I dont think Zorn's unorthodox method of coaching helped any, either. If you've followed Joe's statements throughout the year, you've likely sensed that the pressure is starting to get to him. Joe seems to be taking the criticism to heart. I also think he's starting to feel the pressure from within the organization. Now he is young and is still maturing as a NFL quarterback but he needs someone that can help take him to an "elite" level, not just the [i]next[/i] level. Zorn was probably more of a security blanket for Joe than a mentor. When the criticism was being aimed directly at Joe, Zorn probably shielded him away from it by instilling a false sense of confidence, playing buddy buddy, telling him what he wanted to hear. If this organization is fully committed to their quarterback, then they need to fully hand over the franchise to Joe. If he's not apart of game planning because he doesn't know how to game plan...than you need to train him. You need to get him more involved. You need to give him the keys and ride or die with him -- not coddle him.

Zorn and Matsko were scapegoats for the Offensive Coordinator. Cameron is not the answer. Sometimes when it comes to being right about the obvious, the fans are dead on!

[Bullrush]

[quote name='-Truth-' timestamp='1296354185' post='628372']
I would assume now that you were referring to a single Season, which you made no point to clear up when 2 people brought it up against you, and you went along with the argument as if there was no misconception. And there I thought taking the time to bold the numbers in the post I was replying to would've given room for clarification. Silly me.[/quote]
Again, if you make up quotes and web them together, come up with quotes that don't exist don't blame me that there is "misconception". I didn't create that. I never said anything about our OL having performed at a high level or "great" in 2010. You made that up. That's something you came up with because you didn't read what I said. And even if you did read what I said, even if there was something not 100% clear, you were the one coming up with the story that I said the Ravens OL performed great in 2010. I never said that. But hey, please quote me on that. I'd love to see where I stated "The Ravens OL performed great in 2010". I'm waiting.

[quote name='-Truth-' timestamp='1296354185' post='628372']And yes, I will definitely complain.[/quote]
Complain about what? Be a little more specific.

[quote name='-Truth-' timestamp='1296354185' post='628372']It's not as if Reed had ever begun a Season on IR, so if it does happen, this would be my first chance to make such a suggestion.[/quote]
Whether Reed ever landed on IR or not is not the question, I don't think you get the point I'm trying to make. He could've been suspended, could have gone on vacationm, could have asked the Ravens for a short break. It's not about why he's not there. It's about him not being there and coming back to solidify our backfield.

[quote name='-Truth-' timestamp='1296354185' post='628372']That was also a perfect example, considering Reed would be the first person I'd move to replace the moment any future health concerns arise. I made this signature out of spite, and am simply waiting on the day he slips up to call for a new FS.[/quote]
So because you love him it's different now?

[quote name='-Truth-' timestamp='1296354185' post='628372']I didn't praise the talent that we already have at OL in that very comment. Because I also didn't claim that with Gaither back, we would've been, "incredible," since no one would be playing out of position.[/quote]
I did say that, and if you bother to check out the numbers this O-Line produced or was responsible for in 2009-2010 then you'd sort of see that the facts sort of back up what I said.

[Rav'n Maniac]

IMO, I can't concern myself too much about the Zorn firing because I'll never know all the facts that brought them to this decision. What I am concerned about is the fact that Joe obviously is upset about it and it seems that a somewhat existing riff is beginning to widen. This, along with the fact that Joe may be without as many as 3 WR returning "could" create a larger problem next season, if there is one.

Some have said that Zorn & Matsko were scapegoats. While this could be true, there is also the possibility that one, if not both, were being overly outspoken, verging on insubordination about the offense, which also could have led to their release. It's all just speculation in the end.

Although I'm not a fan of Cam, I feel the team made the right decision keeping him with his system in place, considering the looming lockout. This is no time to bring in a new OC with a new system during a brewing storm. Cam's system certainly must be tweaked to the performance of the players. It was obvious that our OL and WRs struggled to maintain the level of play required to make the system successful at times.

I look forward to see what acquisitions are made this off season to ensure this system can be successful and I hope all this dissension is resolved quickly and we can move on.

[Guest RBates]

[quote name='theFRANCHISE' timestamp='1296333363' post='628032']
Social science dictates that, when a person does not have a healthy outlet for their emotion, it manifests itself in other ways. Because Flacco does not express himself as much in the media, that probably leads to occasional outbursts of frustration over criticism, such as his comments regarding people slamming him for his Week 2 performance. It's a common human trait, as repression of such frustration can also lead to internalization, where a person may become a self-fulfilling prophecy.

In other words, while criticism of Flacco is fine and expected, overanalysis by some fans may eventually lead to Flacco becoming everything they say he is. It's a psychological effect that's inexact, but has some basis when you consider Social Control Theory and other such tenets of sociology that tries to explain things like criminality, behavior, etc.
[/quote]
A rose by any other name would smell as sweet" is a quotation by William Shakespeare. With that said ,lets not start making excuses for Joe. If in fact he is immature, and has a problem with the diva syndrome, then i say, you came to the wrong team. We can not regress from our tough football background. Diva's have no place in Baltimore.

[edsopafan]

Today's Sunday Sun

Jamieson Hensley and Aaron Wilson and other have reported the Flaming situation with the firing of Zorn. Bisciotti and Harbaugh did the right thing and talked with Joe Flacco about the offense and the coordinators. Seems Joe was supporting Zorn. Does not say much in favor for Cam. "I played the offense the way Cam wanted it". Joe voiced his pinion and said he wanted to continue working with Zorn.

If you ask for advice from your main offensive player and he is completely supporting someone seems you would continue. Seems maybe if not said the rapor / trust in Cam is not there. How do they move ahead in a concerted effort without TRUST

Don't ask the question if you afraid of the answer. I thought Steve was a listener. I thought he would see through the dust pile being moved around to save Cam

This is the first time I can say I am disappointed in Steve.

Now what level of rapor or trust will there be for Joe with the organization? Especially how will he respond with Cam?? CBO or not this is a wrong move.

[Tatelli]

[quote]Bisciotti and Harbaugh did the right thing and talked with Joe Flacco about the offense and the coordinators. [/quote]

[quote]I thought Steve was a listener. I thought he would see through the dust pile being moved around to save Cam[/quote]


IMO this meeting was held more so from the owner wanting it more than the HC. IMO Steve B. did listen, and he is learning as well, about his QB and HC. IMO Steve B. is one of the Smarter owners in the NFL, even tho his brain is telling him to drop the axe on some necks. He has not gotten where he is by acting out of anger and complaints, until he himself understands the issues at hand. He is standing near the fire, IMO right where he needs to be learning and feeling the heat.

[quote]This is the first time I can say I am disappointed in Steve.[/quote]

Me myself will NOT at this time fire a salvo towards Steve B. As I said above he is close to the fire, he knows BS when he hears and See's it. We put our trust in OZ, lets keep our trust in Steve B. for now

[quote]Now what level of rapor or trust will there be for Joe with the organization? Especially how will he respond with Cam??[/quote]

I can only hope Joe at his 4th year steps up and takes charge of this offense. I don't want to see Mason or any other player on offense take command but Joe! IMO it is time he steps up and gets rid of that "I'll make it work crap". The organization and Joe will be fine. I'm happy to see him speak up, but don't loose faith in Steve and OZ, they do know the game, have trust they here you.

[quote] CBA or not this is a wrong move.[/quote]

IMO this is the kicker to everything, like it or not this is a big deal, and it is what saved Cams backside! These are my opinions and nothing more, no facts to support it but just opinions.

Here is a big question....what happens if the CBA is settled by march 3rd. Steve B. are you willing to sacrifice 2011 with Cam? As a fan, I say heck no...But once again I'm not the owner and I do have trust in our FO.

[noy]

[quote name='poedacrow' timestamp='1296372631' post='628556']
@noy...better to head into the [b]offseason[/b] this way...and hope they iron things out before the start of the regular season.

I'll admit the move to oust Zorn is not as perplexing to me as Joe's reaction to it. There's some drama in Ravenland somewhere and it needs to get fixed before the start of the season.

And btw...I became a huge Josh Wilson fan this season and I'm lovin' that sig!
[/quote]

Yeah, but I'd rather it not be this way at all. All I want is some consistency, but when the team starts its offseasons with new pieces in new places, it sets the trend for the season. I guess you're right, beginning of the offseason is the best way for this to work.

lol, Josh Wilson became Superman to me that day

[Ravenmore74]

I think so much was riding on this season and Flacco might have been disappointed. This may have caused him to want to be traded. Until he makes this claim publicly we will never know.

[JoeCool#5]

[quote name='D_UP' timestamp='1296331913' post='628014']
The organization needs to pump their brakes. If they upset their young qb he may just jump ship when contract is up. If he's feeling attack then there could be trouble-a-brew'n.
[/quote]
First he loses Hue Jackson, and now Zorn, I dont blame Joe. I would be pissed too. If Harbs wants to go down with a sinking ship known as Cam Cameron, I think Joe will look at his options when his contract is up. (I dont blame him) Just look at Rivers and Brees how they developed once they got away from Cam.

I would take it as a personal attack as well. Joe going public, just put team management on notice for its a 2 way street, both parties have an option to walk way from the contract table not just the Ravens. You go Joe!

[RavensAllTheWay]

[quote name='berad' timestamp='1296342560' post='628147']
We'll see if we're talking about any of this crap in October. Stupid offseason.
[/quote]
Maybe not October, but what about November, December and January? That's when the offense has really sputtered out of control the last two seasons.

[flynismo]

,[quote name='Ravenmore74' timestamp='1296412655' post='628775']<br />I think so much was riding on this season and Flacco might have been disappointed.  This may have caused him to want to be traded.  Until he makes this claim publicly we will never know.[/quote]


how did it go from flacco was upset about zorn getting fired to flacco wanting to get traded? ,,,,,,,,

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='RavensAllTheWay' timestamp='1296413719' post='628785']
Maybe not October, but what about November, December and January? That's when the offense has really sputtered out of control the last two seasons.
[/quote]

The offense sputtered in the second half of the '09 season mainly because Joe was [i]really[/i] banged up.

This season, Cam seemed to throttle things down against the Browns and Bengals.

[bscott57]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' timestamp='1296414410' post='628790']
The offense sputtered in the second half of the '09 season mainly because Joe was [i]really[/i] banged up.

This season, Cam [b]seemed[/b] to throttle things down against the Browns and Bengals.
[/quote]


No one actually knows if Cam was slamming on the brakes, we are all just speculating. Who cares who Joe's QB coach is, Joe's job is to win games for our organization. Flacco needs to know his place, in my opinion he has not earned the right to publicly criticize this organization.

Get better and none of this will matter, keep being a bone head and you will put up with this until you are ran out of Baltimore. I am personally tired of people putting all of this on Cam when the truth is no one actually knows if our terrible 2nd halfs were a product of the play calling or the inability of Flacco to read coverages, find open guys and deliver the ball. It seems blatantly obvious that teams made half time adjustments and were able to turn Flacco into a check down superstar relying on Ray Rice and Todd Heap.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='bscott57' timestamp='1296417450' post='628816']
No one actually knows if Cam was slamming on the brakes, we are all just speculating. Who cares who Joe's QB coach is, Joe's job is to win games for our organization. Flacco needs to know his place, in my opinion he has not earned the right to publicly criticize this organization.

Get better and none of this will matter, keep being a bone head and you will put up with this until you are ran out of Baltimore. I am personally tired of people putting all of this on Cam when the truth is no one actually knows if our terrible 2nd halfs were a product of the play calling or the inability of Flacco to read coverages, find open guys and deliver the ball. It seems blatantly obvious that teams made half time adjustments and were able to turn Flacco into a check down superstar relying on Ray Rice and Todd Heap.
[/quote]

The reason I say Cam was less aggressive against the Browns and Bengals the last two weeks was because of how much Rice pounded the rock.

I agree with the majority of your post though.

[flynismo]

,[quote name='bscott57' timestamp='1296417450' post='628816']<br />No one actually knows if Cam was slamming on the brakes, we are all just speculating.  Who cares who Joe's QB coach is, Joe's job is to win games for our organization.  Flacco needs to know his place, in my opinion he has not earned the right to publicly criticize this organization.<br /><br />Get better and none of this will matter, keep being a bone head and you will put up with this until you are ran out of Baltimore.  I am personally tired of people putting all of this on Cam when the truth is no one actually knows if our terrible 2nd halfs were a product of the play calling or the inability of Flacco to read coverages, find open guys and deliver the ball.  It seems blatantly obvious that teams made half time adjustments and were able to turn Flacco into a check down superstar relying on Ray Rice and Todd Heap.<br />[/quote]

flacco has the right to think and say what he wants about the team's decisions. The team wants him to lead us to the super bowl? Then the team obviously values him enough for his opinions and input to matter to them.


And I think you answered your own question as to whether Cameron or Flacco was mainly to blame for the second half meltdowns when you said 'teams obviously made half time adjustments and turned Flacco into a checkdown superstar.'

Unless Flacco mysteriously forget how to play football once the third quarter started, it seems reasonable to surmise that Cameron did not make the proper adjustments to counter what defenses were doing.,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

[cursona pirate]

im happy joe is being honest with the media. He went through how many qb coaches already?

[FerrariFan87]

[quote name='cursona pirate' timestamp='1296426763' post='628893']
im happy joe is being honest with the media. He went through how many qb coaches already?
[/quote]

Flacco can't really complain since he's been in the same system for his first 3 years... just ask Jason Campbell who has had 7 or 8 different offensive systems since he was drafted!

[1/28/01]

[quote name='Ravenmore74' timestamp='1296412655' post='628775']
I think so much was riding on this season and Flacco might have been disappointed. This may have caused him to want to be traded. Until he makes this claim publicly [b]Ravenmore74[/b] will never know.
[/quote]
Fixed....

Trade? You're a little off base here.

[-Truth-]

Are you serious? Did you really miss the sarcasm disclaimer at the bottom of my post? The one that is supposed to let you that my entire response was written... sarcastically?

[quote name='Bullrush' timestamp='1296333869' post='628038']
Besides we never had any O-Line issues or QB issues. Matsko is well respected around the league, and our O-Line looked great in 09/[b]10[/b].
[/quote]

Apparently quoting it twice wasn't enough. Since making the same part bold on more than one occasion was futile, can you please turn your attention to the number 10? You know, the one that had two people, obviously including me, under the impression that the, "/," was placed to separate 2009 and 2010 as two their own entities? Thanks. So did this number magically appear in the reply? Did I purposefully add it myself in an attempt to apparently put words in your mouth? No and no. Which means that I read your comment, the words you had written yourself, and inferred them differently. That's called a, "misconception."

[quote name='Bullrush' timestamp='1296350562' post='628277']
If Reed goes on IR and Nakamura fills in are you gonna complain about how we need to upgrade the safety position because our safeties didn't perform as well with our key guy not in there?
[/quote]

[quote name='Bullrush' timestamp='1296350562' post='628277']
And yes, I will definitely complain.
[/quote]

Let's me get this straight. Your question was inquiring whether or not I would complain, and I answered with a sarcastic yes. Yet it's also supposed to be more specific? Did you even remember that you asked me a direct question? And I understood exactly what your point was. But never in my post did I ever even hint at suggesting that we add talent to our OL.

[quote name='-Truth-' timestamp='1296341980' post='628138']
I'm well aware of the talent that we have up front. Did they perform well given their situation? More-so than not, yes. Could they have been incredible if Gaither wasn't a scratch, allowing them the privilege of avoiding playing out of position? Without a doubt.
[/quote]

[quote name='Bullrush' timestamp='1296350562' post='628277']Or do you understand that once Reed returns it'll all be back to normal and there's no issue at safety?
[/quote]

So tell me...how does stating that our OL would be amazing with Gaither back mean that I was advocating to bring in more players to our Offensive front? I honestly didn't think I could've been more specific in claiming that they would've been unstoppable had they the privilege of playing in their regular positions, but apparently I was also somehow implying that the exact opposite.

[Guest RBates]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' timestamp='1296356632' post='628432']
It also helps to have an o-line capable in pass protection as well as run-blocking, in addition to arguably the best QB in the game.
[/quote]
Best system Qb in the game.

[Guest RBates]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' timestamp='1296343277' post='628160']
How was he holding either of them down?

Brees handed the ball off to LT a lot more than he does to any RB in New Orleans. [b]Of course his numbers have increased[/b].

The same applies Rivers, who has put up bigger numbers since LT's decline and departure.



Well, KC's zone scheme allowed the crossing routes to be more effective. I saw Joe flat out miss two crossing routes against the Steelers.



So wait, did you expect him to adjust his play-book with a still-developing QB and inconsistent OL mid-season [i]and[/i] see a crisp offense?

Like I said before, I saw crossing routes against the Steelers but they weren't completed.

Cam has major issues, that can't be denied. Despite all of his problems though, the offense was doing just enough during the season and could have still been playing football had they taken care of business in the biggest game of the season. Of course, they may have done more period had Cam taken advantage of his personnel more but he didn't. Many an OC have been accused of the same thing around the league and are still employed.



Okay. The drop in scoring this season compared to last coincides directly with the running game's decline.

I've asked before and will continue to do so: how many third-year QBs in today's NFL are at the center of high-flying, high-scoring offenses?



With no more "buffers", they will be forced to improve their chemistry. I for one, believe they can make it work, especially if player personnel is improved.

Harbaugh's comments still don't mean he won't tell Cam to change if he disagrees. Simply being more involved in the offense will probably open his eyes to some of Cam's negative tendencies and lead to changes.

Then what does make sense? You can't fire him with the labor uncertainty and expect a new OC to be brought in and implement his offense, so what should have been done?
[/quote]
To be fair they both played in a horrible division,

[ghost1986]

I don't think our o-line was great this season, but that's because Gaither was whining about back spasms. Meanwhile Oher had an ankle injury and came back two games later. Find a new Left Tackle. As for all of this, Zorn and Matsko were scapegoats. I don't think Zorn was the best QB coach. Flacco sacked himself more this season than any other one. But when we're using Stallworth(who I've heard over and over is the fastest WR we have) for endarounds and Boldin for negative yardage screen passes, you have to start questioning the play-calling. Look at what we did with Boldin against the Browns and Bills. He went deep.

[Ravenmore74]

No matter what anyone says demanding more money unhappy with the organization or what have you.
You won't find a better team to play for. I mean this team is top 10 in NFL top 5 in AFC...
That says enough to me as a fan, and it should say enough for the players as-well...

[ghost1986]

That's true, Ravenmore. Besides, even though we rip on Big Jen all the time and trash talk their team, I honestly think we are amongst the classiest fans and definitely the classiest team. One team I was really disappointed with this season was KC. I couldn't believe how dirty their players were playing in the second half. But I don't want to get off topic. I don't see Joe being traded. I do think he has the right to speak out. He may not be the leader of the team, but his teammates trust him. I'd like to know who applauded him, but they might get the same treatment as Zorn and Matsko.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='ghost1986' timestamp='1296575271' post='630170']
That's true, Ravenmore. Besides, even though we rip on Big Jen all the time and trash talk their team, I honestly think we are amongst the classiest fans and definitely the classiest team. One team I was really disappointed with this season was KC. I couldn't believe how dirty their players were playing in the second half. But I don't want to get off topic. I don't see Joe being traded. I do think he has the right to speak out. He may not be the leader of the team, but his teammates trust him. [b]I'd like to know who applauded him[/b], but they might get the same treatment as Zorn and Matsko.
[/quote]

I'd put up money that one of those players was a WR.

[flynismo]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' timestamp='1296575917' post='630179']<br />I'd put up money that one of those players was a WR.<br />[/quote]

does his name rhyme with 'Merrick Dason'?

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1296576316' post='630186']
does his name rhyme with 'Merrick Dason'?
[/quote]

Maybe...

But seriously, I hope Mason isn't the split end next season. His role needs to be going the way Ward's is with the Steelers.

[ghost1986]

That's what it looked like his role was this year. The carolina game he and Joe supposedly had that argument and then the next week, all Joe did was throw to Mason. But Mason's not a sure thing for next season. He might decide to retire. I wouldn't blame him. He's had a heck of a career. But I think people are blowing this as out of proportion as they did the Flacco/Mason ordeal.

[bpytnjr58]

I am sure his displeasure will not last long especially when the off season workouts start.He knows that this team is one of the top five AFC teams on a regular basis and they give him a good chance to get a ring.