Joe's Not Happy With Zorn Firing

[RoflDogs]

[quote]I'm not happy about it and they know I'm not happy about I don't think it was a good decision[/quote]
[quote]I feel a little bit like I'm being attacked. Usually when you fire a position coach its because you're not happy with how that position did. I had a pretty good year and you fire the qb coach its kind of an attack on me I feel like it is what it is[/quote]

Per Aaron Wilson's twitter

[theFRANCHISE]

Sounds like an indictment of Cam Cameron's coaching style, while also speaking to the good relationship that Jim Zorn must've had with Joe Flacco.

So, this almost affirms our suspicions that Cam is abrasive and a bit standoffish, which also supports the theory that there were far too many conflicting philosophies on that offensive coaching staff with conflicting egos.

[Ed_Reed20]

[s]I checked Wilson's Twitter and didn't see these comments[/s], I did see this though:

[quote]
Joe Linta cont. on the Jim Zorn firing: "Joe [Flacco] knows that whatever decision the organization makes is in the team’s best interest.”
[/quote]

[url="http://twitter.com/ravensinsider"]Link[/url]

EDIT: Found them.

[ravensdfan]

[quote name='theFRANCHISE' timestamp='1296331130' post='628007']
Sounds like an indictment of Cam Cameron's coaching style, while also speaking to the good relationship that Jim Zorn must've had with Joe Flacco.

So, this almost affirms our suspicions that Cam is abrasive and a bit standoffish, which also supports the theory that there were far too many conflicting philosophies on that offensive coaching staff with conflicting egos.
[/quote]

I think it confirms that now we have not only an unhappy young franchise QB but one who's confidence will now be shaken. Not to mention, I do not see this working out with Cam as the QB coach. This is the first truly poor decision I've seen Harbaugh make but it is a really bad one. Sorry. Dress it up any way you like it. This is Harbaugh putting a personal connection before the organization.

Edit: Before anyone says "Harbaugh doesn't have final say" Bisciotti is not a meddlesome owner. As such, the rest of the FO follows suit. They went to Harbaugh about Cam and he said this or that to defend Cam. This IS a Harbaugh decision.

[D_UP]

The organization needs to pump their brakes. If they upset their young qb he may just jump ship when contract is up. If he's feeling attack then there could be trouble-a-brew'n.

[True]

Honestly this is a pretty telling statement coming from Flacco who usually has a very calm demeanor and soft spoken.

From watching him this year he always worked with Zorn on the sidelines and rarely was by with Cam Cameron. I hope this doesn't hurt the teams chemistry when a few other people indirectly spoke against Cameron earlier in the season, and now your QB is upset about this incident. This should be Flacco's opportunity to step up and be a leader. HE has to take control of the offense now. You're the franchise QB Joe, take up that role and if you don't like something Cam says, then say screw it and do what you believe is best for the team.

[die_hard_raven]

[quote name='ravensdfan' timestamp='1296331533' post='628012']
I think it confirms that now we have not only an unhappy young franchise QB but one who's confidence will now be shaken. Not to mention, I do not see this working out with Cam as the QB coach. This is the first truly poor decision I've seen Harbaugh make but it is a really bad one. Sorry. Dress it up any way you like it. This is Harbaugh putting a personal connection before the organization.

Edit: Before anyone says "Harbaugh doesn't have final say" Bisciotti is not a meddlesome owner. As such, the rest of the FO follows suit. They went to Harbaugh about Cam and he said this or that to defend Cam. This IS a Harbaugh decision.
[/quote]

Well I've questioned personnel decisions the HC has made also, at the end of the day any decision other than a decision to do what's best for the team is not a good one. Let's sit back and see how this goes, I do know this much, if the teams struggles miserably and the HC chooses to have blind faith in Cam that will not be a positive situation.

I don't like that fact Joe isn't happy and I'm not happy with Cam sticking around but I will support the team all I can and remain optimistic. Since the owner placed the decision in the HC's hands I wonder how closely he is being evaluated as well?

[JohnJohnson]

He'll have to spend more time with Cam, who has shown a resistance to player input.

[Bullrush]

I don't want Cam anywhere near Joe. It's a joke that the guy who was responsible for this horrific offense last season is getting promoted/rewarded and at the same time every other coach on offense is getting fired. The guys that actually do have skills, like Zorn & Matsko. Cam did a tremendous job sucking up to Harbs the last few years. Hard to fire a guy that's inside your butt.

[flynismo]

Well, I understand Joe's reasoning, but I think he is drastically overreacting to the situation when he says he kinda feels like its a rub on him...especially when Zorn officially was fired for insubordination (not performance) and Joe himself says he had a good year.A few things Joe has said leads me to believe he has underlying maturity and/or confidence issues. His reaction after people slammed him for the Cincy game in week 2, this, and reportedly he wasn't benched in ATL because the coaches didnt think he'd react well to it.

[Ed_Reed20]

At this point, I [i]really[/i] hope a new CBA is hammered out so Joe, Cam, Ver Steeg and whoever else can work through their issues in the spring and early summer.

[shawn ny]

Im gunna call it here....zorn firing was scapegoat for cam not living up to expectations and if the cba agreement is reached in the next few months then cam will be next on the chopping block.....Goooooo cba!!!!!!!!

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='Bullrush' timestamp='1296332869' post='628025']
I don't want Cam anywhere near Joe. It's a joke that the guy who was responsible for this horrific offense last season is getting promoted/rewarded and at the same time every other coach on offense is getting fired. The guys that actually do have skills, like Zorn & Matsko. Cam did a tremendous job sucking up to Harbs the last few years. Hard to fire a guy that's inside your butt.
[/quote]

What's really a joke is that one person is considered solely responsible for the performance of an entire unit.

And what skills do Zorn and Matsko have?

[theFRANCHISE]

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1296333087' post='628028']
Well, I understand Joe's reasoning, but I think he is drastically overreacting to the situation when he says he kinda feels like its a rub on him...especially when Zorn officially was fired for insubordination (not performance) and Joe himself says he had a good year.A few things Joe has said leads me to believe he has underlying maturity and/or confidence issues. His reaction after people slammed him for the Cincy game in week 2, this, and reportedly he wasn't benched in ATL because the coaches didnt think he'd react well to it.
[/quote]
Social science dictates that, when a person does not have a healthy outlet for their emotion, it manifests itself in other ways. Because Flacco does not express himself as much in the media, that probably leads to occasional outbursts of frustration over criticism, such as his comments regarding people slamming him for his Week 2 performance. It's a common human trait, as repression of such frustration can also lead to internalization, where a person may become a self-fulfilling prophecy.

In other words, while criticism of Flacco is fine and expected, overanalysis by some fans may eventually lead to Flacco becoming everything they say he is. It's a psychological effect that's inexact, but has some basis when you consider Social Control Theory and other such tenets of sociology that tries to explain things like criminality, behavior, etc.

[True]

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1296333087' post='628028']
Well, I understand Joe's reasoning, but I think he is drastically overreacting to the situation when he says he kinda feels like its a rub on him...[b]especially when Zorn officially was fired for insubordination [/b](not performance) and Joe himself says he had a good year.A few things Joe has said leads me to believe he has underlying maturity and/or confidence issues. His reaction after people slammed him for the Cincy game in week 2, this, and reportedly he wasn't benched in ATL because the coaches didnt think he'd react well to it.
[/quote]
That's not accurate though. [url="http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/sports/ravens/blog/2011/01/source_ravens_unhappy_with_zorns_teaching_methods.html"](LINK)[/url]
[quote]Ravens coach John Harbaugh and offensive coordinator Cam Cameron spent all day Tuesday questioning Zorn about how he was coaching quarterback Joe Flacco and were concerned about Zorn being insubordinate, the source added.

Harbaugh disputed this report, saying it is "inaccurate and unfair to Jim Zorn" and "in no way does it describe Jim’s relationship with the Ravens, and that includes with his fellow coaches while here and our players."[/quote]

I think it's really that Zorn was a West Coast disciple and Cameron is of Air Coryell. Conflicting philosophies and thus Zorn was let go.

[Bltravens]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' timestamp='1296333351' post='628031']
What's really a joke is that one person is considered solely responsible for the performance of an entire unit.

And what skills do Zorn and Matsko have?
[/quote]
Zorn is a proven quality QB coach, that is indisputable. Wasn't Matsko the Oline coach for the Chiefs when they were running wild with LJ and Trent Green running the show in the early-mid 2000s? Matsko clearly has some type skill because Carolina jumped all over him less than 24 hours after he was fired.

I'm really really not impressed with this whole debacle on offense right now.

[Bullrush]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' timestamp='1296333351' post='628031']
What's really a joke is that one person is considered solely responsible for the performance of an entire unit.
[/quote]
I think "offensive coordinator" pretty much explains what his job is. And as head of this offense it's his job to make it work. If he can't do that he's fired, just like in any other business. If you open up a store and put one guy in charge to run the place and he doesn't make enough money then you don't fire every employee except for him and actually promote the guy, it's the other way around. You fire him and get somebody new to replace him.

Besides we never had any O-Line issues or QB issues. Matsko is well respected around the league, and our O-Line looked great in 09/10. Zorn is well respected around the league and Flacco has gotten better and better every year and if you listen to what he said it sounds like Flacco loved working with him. You try to spin it the other way again to make sure Cam doesn't get any blame, you've been doing that the past few months.

[flynismo]

[quote name='theFRANCHISE' timestamp='1296333363' post='628032']<br />Social science dictates that, when a person does not have a healthy outlet for their emotion, it manifests itself in other ways. Because Flacco does not express himself as much in the media, that probably leads to occasional outbursts of frustration over criticism, such as his comments regarding people slamming him for his Week 2 performance. It's a common human trait, as repression of such frustration can also lead to internalization, where a person may become a self-fulfilling prophecy.<br /><br />In other words, while criticism of Flacco is fine and expected, overanalysis by some fans may eventually lead to Flacco becoming everything they say he is. It's a psychological effect that's inexact, but has some basis when you consider Social Control Theory and other such tenets of sociology that tries to explain things like criminality, behavior, etc.<br />[/quote]


i think it's simpler than that. Part of maturing is learning how to control your emotions. I'm not disputing the cause and effect of the environment surrounding him (thanks all you sensless Flacco haters), but if he learned how to take things in stride and put a better perspective on things, the other people around him would have much less affect.

[flynismo]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' timestamp='1296333351' post='628031']<br />What's really a joke is that one person is considered solely responsible for the performance of an entire unit.[/quote]


perhaps, but the point still remains that most of us feel that Cam did not earn the right to keep his job, much less be given an even larger role in the underachieving offense that he orchestrated.

[-Truth-]

[quote name='Bullrush' timestamp='1296333869' post='628038']
I think "offensive coordinator" pretty much explains what his job is. And as head of this offense it's his job to make it work. If he can't do that he's fired, just like in any other business. If you open up a store and put one guy in charge to run the place and he doesn't make enough money then you don't fire every employee except for him and actually promote the guy, it's the other way around. You fire him and get somebody new to replace him.

Besides we [b]never had any O-Line issues[/b] or QB [b]issues[/b]. Matsko is well respected around the league, and our O-Line looked great in 09/[b]10[/b]. Zorn is well respected around the league and Flacco has gotten better and better every year and if you listen to what he said it sounds like Flacco loved working with him. You try to spin it the other way again to make sure Cam doesn't get any blame, you've been doing that the past few months.
[/quote]
Our OL was definitely not great this Season.

[Alexir]

You get rid of Cam. That's all you had to do. Now you have ticked off the Franchise QB who has had a history of arguing with Cam and now he feels like he is being attacked. Is this what they meant by building the offense from the ground up? Just giving Cam more power and not having a buffer between him and Joe.

[url="http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/player_main.aspx?sport=NFL&hl=199569&id=4677"]http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/player_main.aspx?sport=NFL&hl=199569&id=4677[/url]

Here is more info on the matter. I'm not happy about it. Honestly, they shouldn't of hoodwinked Joe like that and Joe should of had his say in this. I know he is just a player but he is the QB, he should have say in rebuilding the offense since he will be the one running it.

[Bullrush]

[quote name='-Truth-' timestamp='1296334226' post='628040']
Our OL was definitely not great this Season.
[/quote]
Did you expect them to actually play well? Oher is not a LT. Yanda is not a RT. Chester is not a RG. You move Gaither back to LT, Oher back to RT, Yanda back to RG and Chester back to the bench and then you'll see how great this O-Line can be. And moving Gaither to RT even after he lost all that weight was another boneheaded decision by Cam.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='Bltravens' timestamp='1296333834' post='628037']
Zorn is a proven quality QB coach, that is indisputable. Wasn't Matsko the Oline coach for the Chiefs when they were running wild with LJ and Trent Green running the show in the early-mid 2000s? Matsko clearly has some type skill because Carolina jumped all over him less than 24 hours after he was fired.

I'm really really not impressed with this whole debacle on offense right now.
[/quote]

You're right about Zorn; I didn't phrase the question the way I wanted to.

Matsko was KC's o-line coach in '06 and '07.

[quote name='Bullrush' timestamp='1296333869' post='628038']
I think "offensive coordinator" pretty much explains what his job is. And as head of this offense it's his job to make it work. If he can't do that he's fired, just like in any other business. If you open up a store and put one guy in charge to run the place and he doesn't make enough money then you don't fire every employee except for him and actually promote the guy, it's the other way around. You fire him and get somebody new to replace him.

Besides we never had any O-Line issues or QB issues. Matsko is well respected around the league, and our O-Line looked great in 09/10. Zorn is well respected around the league and Flacco has gotten better and better every year and if you listen to what he said it sounds like Flacco loved working with him. You try to spin it the other way again to make sure Cam doesn't get any blame, you've been doing that the past few months.
[/quote]

That's a terrible analogy because in the business world, your competitors aren't directly involved in countering whatever attempts you have to excel and flat out trying to make you look bad.

Did you see the o-line block this season? Did you see the mistakes Joe made at times? You're lying to yourself if you don't believe neither the o-line or QB had issues.

I have [b]never[/b] said Cam doesn't deserve any blame. Don't misconstrue what I say because you don't fully agree with me that the offense's stagnation was a combination of factors.

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1296334222' post='628041']
perhaps, but the point still remains that most of us feel that Cam did not earn the right to keep his job, much less be given an even larger role in the underachieving offense that he orchestrated.
[/quote]

And people can certainly feel that way. However, looking at all the factors, I don't think it's hard to see the logic in giving Cam more responsibility.

[Bltravens]

[quote name='Alexir' timestamp='1296334476' post='628043']
You get rid of Cam. That's all you had to do. Now you have ticked off the Franchise QB who has had a history of arguing with Cam and now he feels like he is being attacked. Is this what they meant by building the offense from the ground up? Just giving Cam more power and not having a buffer between him and Joe.

[url="http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/player_main.aspx?sport=NFL&hl=199569&id=4677"]http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/player_main.aspx?sport=NFL&hl=199569&id=4677[/url]

Here is more info on the matter. I'm not happy about it. Honestly, they shouldn't of hoodwinked Joe like that and Joe should of had his say in this. I know he is just a player but he is the QB, he should have say in rebuilding the offense since he will be the one running it.
[/quote]
I'm not a fan of this move either, I was excited when we hired Zorn with his pedigree of coaching up QBs. Honestly they spent 7 hours interrogating Zorn, Cameron and Harbaugh the other day, what'd they spend on Cameron before telling us Cameron was the OC going forward?

Flacco clearly isn't happy and I find it very amusing that the closest thing we've ever had to a franchise QB is Joe, and we're forcing him to work with a guy that he butts heads with, even more closely than before.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='Bullrush' timestamp='1296334536' post='628045']
Did you expect them to actually play well? Oher is not a LT. Yanda is not a RT. Chester is not a RG. You move Gaither back to LT, Oher back to RT, Yanda back to RG and Chester back to the bench and then you'll see how great this O-Line can be. [b]And moving Gaither to RT even after he lost all that weight was another boneheaded decision by Cam.[/b]
[/quote]

Last time I checked, it was [i]never[/i] said Cam decided to switch Gaither to RT.

[True]

[quote name='Bltravens' timestamp='1296333834' post='628037']
Zorn is a proven quality QB coach, that is indisputable. Wasn't Matsko the Oline coach for the Chiefs when they were running wild with LJ and Trent Green running the show in the early-mid 2000s? Matsko clearly has some type skill because Carolina jumped all over him less than 24 hours after he was fired.

I'm really really not impressed with this whole debacle on offense right now.
[/quote]
I share similar sentiments. Zorn was a starting QB in the NFL for quite a few years. He wasn't a pro bowler or elite by any means, but he has played and understands the position. He helped Matt Hasselback become a pretty good QB as well. He has good credentials and people shouldn't look at his tenure with the Redskins as any indication of him being a poor football mind since everyone know the Redskins organization is one of the worst this past decade.

He helped Joe become a better QB this season. Yeah some of Joe's mechanics weren't top notch, but Zorn was working with a completely different philosophy then he has been used to. He's a west coast guy, all about those quick passes and using the middle of the field. Joe holding onto the ball for so long is because of Cam's Air Coryell which requires the WRs to run long routes that take time to develop and require the OL to pass protect for more than 3 seconds (which it didn't this year).

That's probably why he was let go because they think he isn't the right fit for the system. They didn't believe Zorn's teaching style fit in with what Cam is going to run next year. Harbaugh is sticking with Cam so that makes Zorn the odd man out.

[Jamal]

Wow. The off-season just keeps on getting worse and worse.

I don't want to overreact to this, but its saying something when the FO gets rid of the guy who the franchise QB likes, and keeps the guy he reportedly does't like.

[Hjulmann]

[quote name='ravensdfan' timestamp='1296331533' post='628012']
I think it confirms that now we have not only an unhappy young franchise QB but one who's confidence will now be shaken. Not to mention, I do not see this working out with Cam as the QB coach. This is the first truly poor decision I've seen Harbaugh make but it is a really bad one. Sorry. Dress it up any way you like it. This is Harbaugh putting a personal connection before the organization.

Edit: Before anyone says "Harbaugh doesn't have final say" Bisciotti is not a meddlesome owner. As such, the rest of the FO follows suit. They went to Harbaugh about Cam and he said this or that to defend Cam. This IS a Harbaugh decision.
[/quote]
My words exactly

[JO_75]

I can understand that Joe isn't happy but did Joe need Zorn in 2008/2009? No. Joe is still going to be a great QB for us but I think what he is trying to say under neath is he is getting tired of the constant change on the offensive coaching staff. Sure Cam has been 1 constant but look below Cam. We lose Hue Jackson, Al Saunders is gone, they fired the OL coach despite the fact it wasn't his fault Gaither had a injury and missed the whole season and we had to move people out of their natural position on the line. I can understand if there was too many voices on the offensive side then instead of firing Zorn don't give Zorn a head set and only allow John and Cam to communicate to Joe and let Zorn do his thing during the off-season and during practice before each game. Joe is just getting tired of all the changes and seeing how the team isn't doing anything to keep guys and just let them go to another team.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='JO_75' timestamp='1296336418' post='628067']
I can understand that Joe isn't happy but did Joe need Zorn in 2008/2009? No. Joe is still going to be a great QB for us but I think what he is trying to say under neath is he is getting tired of the constant change on the offensive coaching staff. Sure Cam has been 1 constant but look below Cam. We lose Hue Jackson, Al Saunders is gone, they fired the OL coach despite the fact it wasn't his fault Gaither had a injury and missed the whole season and we had to move people out of their natural position on the line. I can understand if there was too many voices on the offensive side then [b]instead of firing Zorn don't give Zorn a head set and only allow John and Cam to communicate to Joe and let Zorn do his thing during the off-season and during practice before each game[/b]. Joe is just getting tired of all the changes and seeing how the team isn't doing anything to keep guys and just let them go to another team.
[/quote]

I agree Joe is probably not happy he'll have a different QB coach for the third straight season but what you proposed there would have been the definition of micromanagement and been pretty difficult to police. For all we know, what Zorn was teaching Joe in practice ran counter to what Cam wanted Flacco to learn.