The Ravens Offensive Scheme

[PeRK82]

[quote name='Ruairidh' timestamp='1295642924' post='620507']
For a johhny foreigner like me to the game this post has help me understand the game a lot better not just like it, the most indepth non proffetional look at the game I have seen. You should make a career of it m8

Cheers
[/quote]

If you have never played football or watched it for a long time, just go play Madden, it will help you in seeing schemes on Defense and Offense. You will know whats going to happen before they even snap the ball most of the time, but with Cam its just Obvious.lololol

[EnVy_CaLiBeR]

Did a little research about the offense myself.

It [b]indeed[/b] does start with a power running game and that's most likely one of the main factors it failed for us. Not being able to run the ball at will killed us.

Reasons why we saw a lot of streaks is because that is apart of the offense. If the defense covers downfield then that tight end or running back is there for the checkdown or the quick route. We will have someone going deep just about every play. We clearly don't have the personnel to do it so I believe the team will take the faster approach to the system and get personnel to make it more similar to Norv Turner's. San Diego has Vincent Jackson and Malcom Floyd who both are 6'5 and are good deep threats. A part of the system is to have receivers be able to go deep and go up and get jump balls in the endzone.(which is why we saw a few fades to Boldin but he's clearly not the receiver for that)The signing of James Hardy, who has a similar build to Jackson and Floyd is a hint at them taking that Norv Turner approach to the offense. Maybe that's why Ozzie showed faith in Hardy.

Just a thought.

[BloodRaven]

It's not just lack of size, it's a lack of speed that hurts us. Our WR corps might be the best possession receivers in the league and have the best hands but they're unable to attack every corner of the field.

[AsianRice]

[quote name='EnVy_CaLiBeR' timestamp='1295643937' post='620535']
Did a little research about the offense myself.

It [b]indeed[/b] does start with a power running game and that's most likely one of the main factors it failed for us. Not being able to run the ball at will killed us.

Reasons why we saw a lot of streaks is because that is apart of the offense. If the defense covers downfield then that tight end or running back is there for the checkdown or the quick route. We will have someone going deep just about every play. We clearly don't have the personnel to do it so I believe the team will take the faster approach to the system and get personnel to make it more similar to Norv Turner's. San Diego has Vincent Jackson and Malcom Floyd who both are 6'5 and are good deep threats. A part of the system is to have receivers be able to go deep and go up and get jump balls in the endzone.(which is why we saw a few fades to Boldin but he's clearly not the receiver for that)The signing of James Hardy, who has a similar build to Jackson and Floyd is a hint at them taking that Norv Turner approach to the offense. Maybe that's why Ozzie showed faith in Hardy.

Just a thought.
[/quote]
Although Hardy has the prototype of a deep threat reciever, I don't buy it yet until he hits the field and shows his skills. I think that is our focus on the draft this year.

[True]

One more thing I want to add.

This scheme works GREAT against blitzing defenses. Is it any coincidence that the Patriots man handled the Steelers and completely dismantled the Jets on MNF? They destroyed both teams. Also Joe Flacco plays really well against the blitz too, IIRC his numbers are very good and he's thrown 15+ TDs this season against it (saw it on the TV screen, so sorry don't have a link).

But it is a lot harder to use against conservative defenses who have the right personnel. The Jets and Browns proved this. They rarely if ever blitzed and once Tom Brady could no longer dink and dunk they struggled. Their downfall in the end was that they had no legitimate deep threat. No player who could occupy double coverage and take out a safety.

This is why I also think the Ravens struggle against the Colts/Bengals who utilize a Cover 2. None of the Ravens WR are fast enough to beat the safety and the OL can't hold out long enough till the WR get separation. They'll have to rely on the run game which isn't exactly explosive and the OL struggled in run blocking. The answer is having a deep threat to gain an advantage in this.

[PeRK82]

[quote name='True' timestamp='1295644448' post='620544']
One more thing I want to add.

This scheme works GREAT against blitzing defenses. Is it any coincidence that the Patriots man handled the Steelers and completely dismantled the Jets on MNF? They destroyed both teams. Also Joe Flacco plays really well against the blitz too, IIRC his numbers are very good and he's thrown 15+ TDs this season against it (saw it on the TV screen, so sorry don't have a link).

But it is a lot harder to use against conservative defenses who have the right personnel. The Jets and Browns proved this. They rarely if ever blitzed and once [b]Tom Brady could no longer dink and dunk they struggled. Their downfall in the end was that they had no legitimate deep threat[/b]. No player who could occupy double coverage and take out a safety.

This is why I also think the Ravens struggle against the Colts/Bengals who utilize a Cover 2. None of the Ravens WR are fast enough to beat the safety and the OL can't hold out long enough till the WR get separation. They'll have to rely on the run game which isn't exactly explosive and the OL struggled in run blocking. The answer is having a deep threat to gain an advantage in this.
[/quote]

Yeah i watched the game and Brady was playing scared , they were getting to him with only rushing 4, Also his recievers didnt help either with dropping passes. They werent dropping the whole time but there were key moments. If there was more time on the clock, The Patriots would have beaten the Jetts, Brady starting getting on a role but there wasnt any time left on the clock, so the On side kicks insued

[AsianRice]

[quote name='True' timestamp='1295644448' post='620544']
One more thing I want to add.

This scheme works GREAT against blitzing defenses. Is it any coincidence that the Patriots man handled the Steelers and completely dismantled the Jets on MNF? They destroyed both teams. Also Joe Flacco plays really well against the blitz too, IIRC his numbers are very good and he's thrown 15+ TDs this season against it (saw it on the TV screen, so sorry don't have a link).

But it is a lot harder to use against conservative defenses who have the right personnel. The Jets and Browns proved this. They rarely if ever blitzed and once Tom Brady could no longer dink and dunk they struggled. Their downfall in the end was that they had no legitimate deep threat. No player who could occupy double coverage and take out a safety.

This is why I also think the Ravens struggle against the Colts/Bengals who utilize a Cover 2. Nonetheless of the Ravens WR are fast enough to beat the safety and the OL can't hold out long enough till the WR get separation. They'll have to rely on the run game which isn't exactly explosive and the OL struggled in run blocking. The answer is having a deep threat to gain an advantage in this.
[/quote]
The Pats's loss is due to solely the Jets didn't blitz much and only rush 4. The Jets have a shutdown corner so they can play double coverage and leave Revis on one on one coverage.

[EnVy_CaLiBeR]

[quote name='AsianRice' timestamp='1295644407' post='620543']
Although Hardy has the prototype of a deep threat reciever, I don't buy it yet until he hits the field and shows his skills. I think that is our focus on the draft this year.
[/quote]
Yeah I'm not sold on him yet but it's a good hint at them trying to implement the speed system of the offense. Having deep threats that are ACTUAL threats deep may stretch out Cam's offense to make it successful. Also looking at fades go to Boldin makes me believe it much more. Honestly, I believe we just need vertical threats to see the true potential of the offense. Possession receivers doing streaks won't cut it anymore.

Goes back to what I originally thought. Fix the O-Line and add deep threats.

[sflegend89]

I can't believe we kept cam. Harbs gotta stick by his decision, if the offense is disgraceful again next year then they should both be shown the door. This is coming from a guy who LOVES Harbaugh as coach, but he put himself on the chopping block by campaigning to keep cameron. If the offense performs next year I will never doubt another Harbs decision ever again

[PeRK82]

[quote name='sflegend89' timestamp='1295646479' post='620565']
I can't believe we kept cam. Harbs gotta stick by his decision, if the offense is disgraceful again next year then they should both be shown the door. This is coming from a guy who LOVES Harbaugh as coach, but he put himself on the chopping block by campaigning to keep cameron. If the offense performs next year I will never doubt another Harbs decision ever again
[/quote]

Yeah i just said that and agree but i dont think that will happen and in all honesty who would we replace him with. Atleast we know what we get with Harb., I think were all just saying that because we are scared that we will have the same Offense with Cam , with good reason i might add.

I dont want to wait 16 more months for Cam to get the Can, we all know it will happen sooner or later. Cam doesnt have a good track record. I have really low expectations for the next season now that we know this Tool is staying without a doubt.

[theFRANCHISE]

[quote name='PeRK82' timestamp='1295641562' post='620489']
Man i hope your right, its just that Cams history really scares me and i dont think anything is going to change. Hope im wrong, i really do.

I ll be happy when i see a wristband on Flacco, then maybe i will start to believe that he can audible. Who else doesnt wear a wristband, i think Flacco is the only one. Maybe im wrong, does anyone know???
[/quote]
The wristband is not necessarily used for audibles; rather, most teams use it as a means of making it easier to call plays when an offense has overly-complex or verbose terminology. Peyton Manning doesn't use a wristband, and Drew Brees usually doesn't use one. Other QBs who don't normally use wristbands (though they have occasionally done so) are Philip Rivers, Eli Manning, Aaron Rodgers, Matt Schaub, and Donovan McNabb.

[OLD SCHOOL SMASH BALL]

[quote name='True' timestamp='1295628431' post='620296']
After doing some research, here are my reasons for why the Ravens offense did so poorly this year.

Cam Cameron is part of the Air Coryell discipline of offense. He worked under Norv Turner in San Diego who has his own version of the system that he used in San Diego to create an explosive offense. However, Cam’s system is more of based off of what Joe Gibbs used in his tenure with the Redskins during the 80’s when they were one of the best teams in the NFL. [b]The Ace formation.[/b] Al Saunders actually used this system himself so it makes even more sense why the Ravens used it since he was the consultant for us.

Here is what it is:
[img]http://i54.tinypic.com/ofbm1f.jpg[/img]



Here is why it failed to work for the Ravens:

[img]http://i53.tinypic.com/2ryhevp.jpg[/img]

You know what team did actually make it work this season? The New England Patriots. They had Wes Welker and Deion Branch who were quick fast receivers that had perfect timing routes. They had two phenomenal rookie TEs in Gronkowski and Hernandez that were great in receiving and blocking. They had Danny Woodhead who was a versatile back, one of the best offensive lines in the NFL, and a HOF QB. Is it any wonder why they had the best scoring offense in the NFL? When you have all the correct pieces, this offense is highly dangerous because it is so well balanced. (It can be beat however as the Jets showed last Sunday, but I won't get into that right now)

After hearing the State of the Ravens conference yesterday and John Harbaugh saying they were going to rebuild the offense, I think I know what they are talking about. They are trying to get the best pieces for this scheme to work.

Here is what I think they envision the future of the offense to be:

[img]http://i51.tinypic.com/ilelq0.jpg[/img]

I understand finally why the Ravens drafted two TEs back to back in last year’s draft. They were the pieces of the future to what Cam Cameron envisioned this offense to be. The loss of Gaither totally screwed up the offensive line as three players played out of position, and Matt Birk isn’t as a good as a center as he used to be. The Ravens scouting [url="http://boards.baltimoreravens.com/topic/33178-ravens-scouting-illinois-guard-randall-hunt/"][u]Randall Hunt[/u][/url] helps add to this theory even more as fixing the offensive line is crucial to this scheme working. Now its just about the growth of the two young TEs, Flacco improving as a QB as he learns this system more, and finding another WR besides Boldin since Mason/Stallworth/Houshmanzdah are all question marks for next year.
[/quote]

I like this! I may point out something that is different about NE, Belichik designs new plays every week, while our problems seem to be that the same old plays are run, not much creativity thus making us easy to defend.

[Militant X 1]

i like this!

[Marc2k6]

[img]http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii38/Marc2k6_bucket/Ravens11.png[/img]

I think this may be better.

[mdrsharon]

Wow, lots of great insight and thought on how things are done.
Can we get some of our coaches to think about this stuff - it makes a lot of sense.
Our coaches are very conservative, that is the real plan. An example -when Belichek went for the 2 points in the Jet game , I thought THAT is coaching. Faked the Jets right out, the 2 was done!
Can we get some of that???

[AlaskanRavensFan]

I really appreciate the post and the work it took to put it together. The offense definitely requires deep threats, which we are lacking at the WR position. Boldin can go deep, but he was double covered a lot this year.

I'm not sure Dickson will be playing as the second receiver, but I think that the FO will try to find some wideouts that better fit the system.

As Caliber mentioned the Chargers have two very tall receivers which allow them to run the "air Coryell" system successfully. Don't forget that it was Cam Cameron who was there to help bring those players in, not Norv. Don't be surprised if the Ravens go after one of the two FA receivers out of SD.

Housh and Mason are good receivers, but they are not designed to run this offense. Hopefully, Ozzy will do what he said and get Cam and Joe better players on offense. (I think he meant better in talent, but also better for the scheme)

[flynismo]

Love the effort and thoughtfulness. Well done.A few niggles regarding what you presented --1. Boldin was most often lined up on the right side and Mason on the left. A subtle, but very significant difference.2. I'm willing to bet anything that the only player who benefitted when we ran this set was Heap. Will get more into that later.3. I dont believe we are/should go out and try to find players who will fit this scheme. We should build our scheme around what we have, and I think that is probably more along the lines of what our FO means when they say they are rebuilding the offense.4. This scheme was doomed from the start. Some of it only becomes apparent as the year progresses (we didnt forsee the OL being so bad), but I can only think of one play that we run out of this set that I like and recall getting much production from (Heap runs a post over the middle, Boldin runs a cross). 5. As I kind of alluded to above, the plays drawn up were a big problem, and another problem is that Flacco isn't the ideal QB for this type of system. This is something for a guy like Bulger. Do we blame Flacco for not fitting himself into this or the team for trying to make Flacco something he isn't? Well ... If you ask me, this is another example of players not being used how they should be.

[ravensdfan]

[quote name='Marc2k6' timestamp='1295658446' post='620698']
[img]http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii38/Marc2k6_bucket/Ravens11.png[/img]

I think this may be better.
[/quote]

I think you are correct!

[ravensdfan]

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1295663791' post='620758']
Love the effort and thoughtfulness. Well done.A few niggles regarding what you presented --1. Boldin was most often lined up on the right side and Mason on the left. A subtle, but very significant difference.2. I'm willing to bet anything that the only player who benefitted when we ran this set was Heap. Will get more into that later.3. I dont believe we are/should go out and try to find players who will fit this scheme. We should build our scheme around what we have, and I think that is probably more along the lines of what our FO means when they say they are rebuilding the offense.4. This scheme was doomed from the start. Some of it only becomes apparent as the year progresses (we didnt forsee the OL being so bad), but I can only think of one play that we run out of this set that I like and recall getting much production from (Heap runs a post over the middle, Boldin runs a cross). 5. As I kind of alluded to above, the plays drawn up were a big problem, and another problem is that Flacco isn't the ideal QB for this type of system. This is something for a guy like Bulger. Do we blame Flacco for not fitting himself into this or the team for trying to make Flacco something he isn't? Well ... If you ask me, this is another example of players not being used how they should be.
[/quote]

I have to agree here and alluded to the same briefly as well. It is well and good to have a scheme but you have to work with the skill set of the players you have. Cam trying to force those square pegs into round holes again. Personally, I think we have the talent in place we just need an offensive scheme that showcases their particular skill sets.

[True]

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1295663791' post='620758']
5. As I kind of alluded to above, the plays drawn up were a big problem, and another problem is that Flacco isn't the ideal QB for this type of system. This is something for a guy like Bulger. Do we blame Flacco for not fitting himself into this or the team for trying to make Flacco something he isn't? Well ... If you ask me, this is another example of players not being used how they should be.
[/quote]

I think Joe Flacco would be perfect for Norv Turners system. He could fit right into Philip Rivers shoes (of course not close to his level since Rivers is a great QB) and excel really well. Flacco's arm strength is one of his best abilities and him throwing deep balls to 6'5 receivers like Vincent Jackson and Malcolm Floyd would be a dream scenario.

Maybe that's why the Ravens signed James Hardy, who fits that physique of a big receiver. I found it very telling when Ozzie referred to him by name during the State of the Ravens press conference. Maybe they envision him as a part of being the offense. If they either sign or draft another WR with a similar physique, I think that Norv Turners scheme could be a distinct possibility. Of course they have to fix up the OL first otherwise no scheme will work to the best of it's ability.

[AlaskanRavensFan]

[quote name='True' timestamp='1295714448' post='620999']
I think Joe Flacco would be perfect for Norv Turners system. He could fit right into Philip Rivers shoes (of course not close to his level since Rivers is a great QB) and excel really well. Flacco's arm strength is one of his best abilities and him throwing deep balls to 6'5 receivers like Vincent Jackson and Malcolm Floyd would be a dream scenario.

Maybe that's why the Ravens signed James Hardy, who fits that physique of a big receiver. I found it very telling when Ozzie referred to him by name during the State of the Ravens press conference. Maybe they envision him as a part of being the offense. If they either sign or draft another WR with a similar physique, I think that Norv Turners scheme could be a distinct possibility. Of course they have to fix up the OL first otherwise no scheme will work to the best of it's ability.
[/quote]

I kind of assumed that Cam was running a similar scheme to Norv. They both run the "Air Coryell" type of offense which is predicated on a strong running game and a vertical passing game.

The difference is that we have Mason, Housh and Boldin and the Chargers have VJax, and Floyd. Neither of those guys are great route runners, but they're both 6"5'.

Just like you need specific personnel to run a 3-4, you need specific personnel to run the system Cam, Norv, Hue Jackson and others run.

I think it was interesting to see that Harbs said the running game was what they must get solved. He and the rest of the coaching/FO staff know that the run is what will open up the passing game. Joe does great off of play action and getting the safeties/LB's to bite on the run fake allows for longer and more wide open passes.

Ozzy mentioned Hardy specifically because of his height. Ozzy essentially admitted that he had not done a good job of getting players for the system that Cam runs. I believe that Hardy will be the first step in remedying that mistake.

[OLD SCHOOL SMASH BALL]

[quote name='AlaskanRavensFan' timestamp='1295716840' post='621029']
I kind of assumed that Cam was running a similar scheme to Norv. They both run the "Air Coryell" type of offense which is predicated on a strong running game and a vertical passing game.

The difference is that we have Mason, Housh and Boldin and the Chargers have VJax, and Floyd. Neither of those guys are great route runners, but they're both 6"5'.

Just like you need specific personnel to run a 3-4, you need specific personnel to run the system Cam, Norv, Hue Jackson and others run.

I think it was interesting to see that Harbs said the running game was what they must get solved. He and the rest of the coaching/FO staff know that the run is what will open up the passing game. Joe does great off of play action and getting the safeties/LB's to bite on the run fake allows for longer and more wide open passes.

Ozzy mentioned Hardy specifically because of his height. Ozzy essentially admitted that he had not done a good job of getting players for the system that Cam runs. I believe that Hardy will be the first step in remedying that mistake.



[/quote]

My biggest problem with Cam was not recognizing and adjusting to what Joe does best, and creating enough new plays that compensate for our terrible O line. When I watched the KC game, I saw Heap across the middle a lot, it worked, and thought he would build on that using Boldin and Housh across the middle as a wrinkle, since we hadn't seen much of that all yea, and they have been doing that for years.
Also with Joe's ability throwing deep balls, why not send a speedy guy who can get deep in a hurry before the O line collapses, maybe we'll actually see that this year. The last time vs Squeelers we send Heap deep, he pulls a hammy, this time its a pick, very frustrating. I mean, who are we fooling?
Aside from Cam, why not speedy Stallworth on returns? Why Parmalee when Reed went down?

[PWNEDbyDEANO]

[quote name='OLD SCHOOL SMASH BALL' timestamp='1295718283' post='621042']
My biggest problem with Cam was not recognizing and adjusting to [b]what Joe does best, and creating enough new plays that compensate for our terrible O line.[/b] When I watched the KC game, I saw Heap across the middle a lot, it worked, and thought he would build on that using Boldin and Housh across the middle as a wrinkle, since we hadn't seen much of that all yea, and they have been doing that for years.
Also with Joe's ability throwing deep balls, why not send a speedy guy who can get deep in a hurry before the O line collapses, maybe we'll actually see that this year. The last time vs Squeelers we send Heap deep, he pulls a hammy, this time its a pick, very frustrating. I mean, who are we fooling?
Aside from Cam, why not speedy Stallworth on returns? Why Parmalee when Reed went down?
[/quote]

This is his only problem. The trouble is that it's a massive problem due to the horrific OL.

[purple.n.black]

Excellent post. With a fixed o-line your idea could be very successful. Hopefully we will have 3 capable WRs next year and do a lot of that instead of too many 2 TE sets. But Dickson in the slot could definitely make some nice mismatches, as it has before.