John Harbaugh Is Our Very Own Andy Reid

[TheSim]

He can build a good team, he can beat bad teams, he can get us into the playoffs with consistency, but he can't get us a Super Bowl. I was a huge Harbaugh supporter for the first two years, but when it comes to Cam Cameron, I'm not going to let Harbaugh continue to you-know-what down my leg and tell me it's raining. In my line of work, if your company hires you one of the best support staffs in the country, but your productivity drops by 50% compared to last year, you get fired. Especially when week in and week out, your failures are obvious to everyone but yourself, and you continue to fail in precisely the same ways.

Lets put it this way: if the offense sputters and fails again next year, Harbaugh needs to go down along with Cam, because he will have proven without a doubt what seems obvious right now: he's just another Andy Reid.

[PuRock]

Players still have to make plays. Not turn the ball over 3 times in the second half. Drop passes, mishandle snaps. Not much Harbs can do about that.

[FerrariFan87]

Harbs isn't anywhere near Andy Reid's level as a Head Coach yet.

[Rinbee]

[quote name='FerrariFan87' timestamp='1295323982' post='614423']
Harbs isn't anywhere near Andy Reid's level as a Head Coach yet.
[/quote]


Is that up to or down to Reid's level?

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='TheSim' timestamp='1295323771' post='614419']
He can build a good team, he can beat bad teams, he can get us into the playoffs with consistency, but he can't get us a Super Bowl. I was a huge Harbaugh supporter for the first two years, but when it comes to Cam Cameron, I'm not going to let Harbaugh continue to you-know-what down my leg and tell me it's raining. [b]In my line of work, if your company hires you one of the best support staffs in the country, but your productivity drops by 50% compared to last year, you get fired. Especially when week in and week out, your failures are obvious to everyone but yourself, and you continue to fail in precisely the same ways.[/b]

[b]Lets put it this way: if the offense sputters and fails again next year, Harbaugh needs to go down along with Cam, because he will have proven without a doubt what seems obvious right now: he's just another Andy Reid.[/b]
[/quote]

No offense but comparing your line of work to Harbaugh's doesn't make sense. I'm pretty sure you're not an NFL head coach so it isn't comparable.

Football is a team game. I'm not going to pretend there weren't a number of things Harbaugh and the two coordinators did this season that drove me batty but the players deserve a certain level of blame, especially when you look at Saturday night's game.

Your point about Andy Reid makes zero sense either. When Andy Reid was guiding his team to NFC Championship games and losing all of them but one, he had a QB who was in his third, fourth, five, sixth and tenth seasons. How many NFL teams in the modern era, where QBs are so important, do you know that advance to a Super Bowl with a QB in his first, second or even third season? Please, enlighten me.

If the offense sputters next season, I will surely look at Harbaugh and probably Joe differently but even then, he will [b]NOT[/b] have proven "without a doubt" he's the equivalent of Andy Reid.

[TheSim]

[quote name='PuRock' timestamp='1295323900' post='614421']
Players still have to make plays. Not turn the ball over 3 times in the second half. Drop passes, mishandle snaps. Not much Harbs can do about that.
[/quote]

Actually, there is a LOT Harbaugh can do about that. Teaching your players to play with poise and intelligence is kind of one of the most important parts of being a coach. And besides that, do you really think the third quarter of Saturday's game was the first time our offense played like garbage?

[berad]

Three years isn't the end-all-be-all for a quarterback or a coach. Unless you're a terrible franchise like the Browns.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='Rinbee' timestamp='1295324522' post='614434']
Is that up to or down to Reid's level?
[/quote]

Reid is a better coach than Harbaugh. Reid has his issues(situational play-calling being one of them) but his pedigree alone makes him a better HC right now.

[FerrariFan87]

[quote name='Rinbee' timestamp='1295324522' post='614434']
Is that up to or down to Reid's level?
[/quote]

Clearly up to.... sure, Reid hasn't won a championship in Philly (no coach has), but he's gotten them to a S.B., multiple division titles, and numerous shots at the conference title. We've had one shot at the conference title and didn't get it done (with a rookie QB, but still) and zero division titles thus far. He's got a lot of work to do.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='TheSim' timestamp='1295324642' post='614439']
Actually, there is a LOT Harbaugh can do about that. Teaching your players to play with poise and intelligence is kind of one of the most important parts of being a coach. And besides that, do you really think the third quarter of Saturday's game was the first time our offense played like garbage?
[/quote]

Oh, please. You can teach your players to do all kinds of things during the week, it's up to them to execute. It's up to them not to hold the ball out for someone to punch it out. It's up to them not to throw terrible interceptions. And it's definitely up to them not to snap the ball into their thigh.

The offense has crumbled at various times all season and I'm sure the coaches have gone over the reason why with the players. But at some point, when an o-line can't open holes or pass protect, a QB makes the same mistakes and the WR struggle to get separation, how much blame can you put on the coaches, specifically just the head coach?

I'm not saying coaching hasn't been an issue many times this season but NFL teams and lose [b]TOGETHER[/b].

[FerrariFan87]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' timestamp='1295325021' post='614458']
Oh, please. You can teach your players to do all kinds of things during the week, it's up to them to execute. It's up to them not to hold the ball out for someone to punch it out. It's up to them not to throw terrible interceptions. And it's definitely up to them not to snap the ball into their thigh.

The offense has crumbled at various times all season and I'm sure the coaches have gone over the reason why with the players. But at some point, when an o-line can't open holes or pass protect, a QB makes the same mistakes and the WR struggle to get separation, how much blame can you put on the coaches, specifically just the head coach?

I'm not saying coaching hasn't been an issue many times this season but NFL teams and lose [b]TOGETHER[/b].
[/quote]

Sadly, this "team" still has 2 separate teams instead of one cohesive unit because the defense has gotten screwed so many times by an inept offense that has cost us rings, thus they're no longer trusted and the D resents them.

[TheSim]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' timestamp='1295324612' post='614437']
No offense but comparing your line of work to Harbaugh's doesn't make sense. I'm pretty sure you're not an NFL head coach so it isn't comparable.
[/quote]

No, you're right, in fact my line of work, though important, doesn't involve the success of an organization worth hundreds of millions of dollars. But if anything, you'd think the fact that he's in a higher-profile, higher-stakes job means the expectations for success are HIGHER, not lower.

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' timestamp='1295324612' post='614437']
I'm not going to pretend there weren't a number of things Harbaugh and the two coordinators did this season that drove me batty but the players deserve a certain level of blame, especially when you look at Saturday night's game.
[/quote]

That's like saying, "the employees as a group failed, but the manager isn't to blame for it". These players had a lot of success elsewhere, and even on less talented teams. The very core of management is getting the best out of your staff, and can you honestly look someone straight in the eye and say that that's what happened this year?

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' timestamp='1295324612' post='614437']
How many NFL teams in the modern era, where QBs are so important, do you know that advance to a Super Bowl with a QB in his first, second or even third season? Please, enlighten me.
[/quote]

The Steelers and the Patriots, and they did it just this decade, and as far as personnel is concerned, our Front Office has done an amazing job building a team that is as talented as either of those teams at their peak. Other teams don't have two future first ballot Hall-of-Famers on their defense, and an offense with seven starting pro-bowlers on it. This team has underachieved, and that failure lays directly at the feet of the people in charge of managing those players.

[EyeSeeTDsInBmore]

LOL that's too funny. I can see how you identify with the similarities, but I believe in Harbaugh and I don't think you can just pin that on to him going into our 3rd year.

[TheSim]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' timestamp='1295325021' post='614458']
Oh, please. You can teach your players to do all kinds of things during the week, it's up to them to execute. It's up to them not to hold the ball out for someone to punch it out. It's up to them not to throw terrible interceptions. And it's definitely up to them not to snap the ball into their thigh.
[/quote]

You keep obsessing over that one game, and ignoring what has been an entire year of consistent failure in addition to that game. Am I the only person who saw Polamalu strip-sack our #2 seed away and couldn't help but remember when Cam announced, to everyone in the NFL's surprise, that "Audibling is overrated"? Or any of our other losses, when the offense forced the defense to play 70-80% of the minutes of the second half because they couldn't do anything? Can you look at all of that evidence honestly and still say that failure doesn't lay directly at the feet of the people in charge of preparing those players to succeed?

[berad]

[quote name='TheSim' timestamp='1295325354' post='614469']
No, you're right, in fact my line of work, though important, doesn't involve the success of an organization worth hundreds of millions of dollars. But if anything, you'd think the fact that he's in a higher-profile, higher-stakes job means the expectations for success are HIGHER, not lower.

That's like saying, "the employees as a group failed, but the manager isn't to blame for it". These players had a lot of success elsewhere, and even on less talented teams. The very core of management is getting the best out of your staff, and can you honestly look someone straight in the eye and say that that's what happened this year?[/quote]

I'd say Hatrbaugh's lived up to expectations. He may not have achieved the ultimate goal but how many coaches do within their first three years?

And no one is excusing Harbaugh from blame. It's his team, he's in charges, he obviously receives most of the fallout. But he was not the one who committed three straight turnovers on the field. The Ravens were in place to win that game but choked it away with stupid mistakes.

[quote name='TheSim' timestamp='1295325354' post='614469']
The Steelers and the Patriots, and they did it just this decade, and as far as personnel is concerned, our Front Office has done an amazing job building a team that is as talented as either of those teams at their peak. Other teams don't have two future first ballot Hall-of-Famers on their defense, [b]and an offense with seven starting pro-bowlers on it.[/b] This team has underachieved, and that failure lays directly at the feet of the people in charge of managing those players.
[/quote]

Who are the seven starting Pro Bowlers? If you want to include Birk, McGahee, Mason, Housh, and/or Heap in that tally, don't, they made the Pro Bowl 3+ years ago, it's not relevant. Although those are all good players, let's not pretend their among the best in the conference any longer.

Birk and Houshmandzadeh, personally, were responsible for two of the biggest gaffs in the game.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='TheSim' timestamp='1295325354' post='614469']
No, you're right, in fact my line of work, though important, doesn't involve the success of an organization worth hundreds of millions of dollars. But if anything, you'd think the fact that he's in a higher-profile, higher-stakes job means the expectations for success are HIGHER, not lower.

[b]The expectations ARE higher. Do you really not believe that when Bisciotti, Ozzie and other team officials meet with Harbaugh this week, some harsh assessments won't be made? On so many levels, this team failed this season. I don't even need to list them. I think Harbaugh only won one of his challenges all season. All of the issues will discussed.[/b]

That's like saying, "the employees as a group failed, but the manager isn't to blame for it". These players had a lot of success elsewhere, and even on less talented teams. The very core of management is getting the best out of your staff, and can you honestly look someone straight in the eye and say that that's what happened this year?

[b]No, it isn't like saying that because I CLEARLY SAID IN THE POST THAT THE COACHES DID NUMEROUS PUZZLING THINGS THIS SEASON. I know a number of the acquisitions had success elsewhere. As you should be able to infer from my posts, I know the coaches didn't get the best out of the players for the most part this season. Chuck Pagano did with his secondary. Cam Cameron didn't with the WRs.[/b]

The Steelers and the Patriots, and they did it just this decade, and as far as personnel is concerned, our Front Office has done an amazing job building a team that is as talented as either of those teams at their peak. Other teams don't have two future first ballot Hall-of-Famers on their defense, and an offense with seven starting pro-bowlers on it. This team has underachieved, and that failure lays directly at the feet of the people in charge of managing those players.

[b]First of all, those are just two teams out of hundreds(in terms of every team in the NFL being different from year to year). You proved my point that it doesn't happen often and to crucify Harbaugh or the team in general for it not happening is not looking at the big picture.

I'm fully aware this team choked away an opportunity Saturday night and it guts me. But the Ravens could just as easily have taken an L in the AFC title game or Super Bowl had they got past Pittsburgh.

I completely disagree that this current Ravens team is as good as any of the Pats teams that won Super Bowls or either the Steelers teams that won championships in the past six seasons.

Two HOF players alone isn't going to win you a Super Bowl, especially when both of them have seen their best days come and go. Simply stating there are seven starting Pro Bowlers on the offense is being in denial somewhat too. Rice aside, how many of those Pro Bowlers is in his prime? For all the accolades the WRs have, did it help them gain more separation this season? Most people consider the QB the most important position and against the best teams in the league, how often has Joe played like a Pro Bowler? Birk being a former Pro Bowler means squat when you consider what he did this season.

The Ravens [i]DID[/i] underachieve this season in some respects but the lack of personnel(which fans have overrated in their minds) also deserves to be acknowledged.
[/b]
[/quote]

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='TheSim' timestamp='1295325692' post='614482']
You keep obsessing over that one game, and ignoring what has been an entire year of consistent failure in addition to that game. Am I the only person who saw Polamalu strip-sack our #2 seed away and couldn't help but remember when Cam announced, to everyone in the NFL's surprise, that "Audibling is overrated"? Or any of our other losses, when the offense forced the defense to play 70-80% of the minutes of the second half because they couldn't do anything? Can you look at all of that evidence honestly and still say that failure doesn't lay directly at the feet of the people in charge of preparing those players to succeed?
[/quote]

I keep obsessing over the most recent game because [b]IT WAS THE BIGGEST ONE OF THE SEASON[/b]. These are professional we're talking about. If they can't correct the mistakes they make on the field even the coaches are more than likely talking to them about them in meetings and on the practice field, don't you put some blame on the players at some point?

I remember Polamalu stripping Joe. I also remember Michael Oher blocking down even James Harrison crashed inside and letting Troy run towards untouched.

Yes, I remember Cam's ridiculous quote.

It doesn't lay [b]DIRECTLY[/b] at the feet of the coaches when basic things like running the ball, gaining separation, making reads can't be done. The coaches were a part of the problem but not completely at fault for the team's problems this season.

[die hard]

Hi John: We had a good season and it shouldn't have ended. We goofed up! When a team plays(what is sometimes called "the prevent defense") that prevents you from winning. A 3 man rush is a form of a prevent defense.
The theory behind it is OK, but it has never worked as desired. Go back and look it up. Not just this year against Cincy(2 times),Atlanta,Buffalo,New England,and of course Pittsburgh(3 times]but also over the past years. Our defense is good enough to win Championships(just like in 2000).
Please get over the desire to play that losing strategy, keep the pressure on the opponents quarterback and we will win many more games.

[TheSim]

If this team went 12-4, lost those four games due to flukes or a few random bad plays, then lost just like they did on Saturday, I would be the first to say, "Okay, stuff happens, players should be held accountable for their mistakes, next year we'll go back and fix what we screwed up before and do our best, but overall it was a good year."

But that's just not what happened. What happened was our offense played every second half of 90% of our games like zombies, and our offensive coordinator continued to call plays that didn't work, that fooled no one, that went away from our strengths (rushing into the teeth of the Steelers D-line on 2nd and long twice? Really?), and our talented quarterback continued to play like a scared animal against our most important opponent of all, despite three years of preparation from Cam Cameron. That's not a fluke, that's a consistent failure to correct obvious problems, even after given ample time and resources. And at a certain point, it stops being the failure of the offensive coordinator and it starts being a failure of the head coach. As much as I really don't want to see that become the case next year, if Cameron doesn't magically come up with a winning strategy, doesn't develop Joe into the franchise quarterback he could be, we're going to continue to be that 9-7 or 12-4 team that gets into the playoffs and then chokes.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='die hard' timestamp='1295327287' post='614502']
Hi John: We had a good season and it shouldn't have ended. We goofed up! When a team plays(what is sometimes called "the prevent defense") that prevents you from winning. A 3 man rush is a form of a prevent defense.
The theory behind it is OK, but it has never worked as desired. Go back and look it up. Not just this year against Cincy(2 times),Atlanta,Buffalo,New England,and of course Pittsburgh(3 times]but also over the past years. Our defense is good enough to win Championships(just like in 2000).
Please get over the desire to play that losing strategy, keep the pressure on the opponents quarterback and we will win many more games.
[/quote]

For the trillionth time, the prevent defense is meant to prevent the deep ball. Three man rush or not, the Webb and Landry were the ones that goofed.

[TheSim]

My PB "starters": Ray Rice, Le'Ron McClain, Anquan Boldin, Todd Heap, Matt Birk, Derrick Mason, Housh, Stallworth. Obviously it's a stretch to call Stallworth a "starter", so I'll drop him off the list, along with Housh, since Housh last made the PB awhile ago. But Todd played the best football of the last 5-6 years in his great career this year, and would have made the PB if he hadn't been injured. Derrick played at a Pro Bowl level last year, but was overlooked because he's an old WR and there are a TON of great young WRs in the AFC right now. Anquan is still in his prime, pro bowl or not. Birk played at a pro bowl level last year. And Le'Ron made the PB last year and this year, and Ray is... well, he's Ray.

My point is that the talent is obviously there, and we were far and away more talented than we were last year, and yet we dropped from 13th to 22nd on offense. And that's actually with fewer turnovers, fewer injuries, and a whole lot less penalties than last year. How else do you explain that except that it's a coaching problem?

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='TheSim' timestamp='1295327476' post='614504']
If this team went 12-4, lost those four games due to flukes or a few random bad plays, then lost just like they did on Saturday, I would be the first to say, "Okay, stuff happens, players should be held accountable for their mistakes, next year we'll go back and fix what we screwed up before and do our best, but overall it was a good year."

But that's just not what happened. What happened was our offense played every second half of 90% of our games like zombies, and our offensive coordinator continued to call plays that didn't work, that fooled no one, that went away from our strengths (rushing into the teeth of the Steelers D-line on 2nd and long twice? Really?), and our talented quarterback continued to play like a scared animal against our most important opponent of all, despite three years of preparation from Cam Cameron. That's not a fluke, that's a consistent failure to correct obvious problems, even after given ample time and resources. And at a certain point, it stops being the failure of the offensive coordinator and it starts being a failure of the head coach. As much as I really don't want to see that become the case next year, if Cameron doesn't magically come up with a winning strategy, doesn't develop Joe into the franchise quarterback he could be, we're going to continue to be that 9-7 or 12-4 team that gets into the playoffs and then chokes.
[/quote]

Again, I'm not going to defend Cam's poor play-calling during the season. I've called out and criticized it more than most on this this forum. It has been absolutely woeful.

However, to say Joe playing like "scared animal" and then dump it all the coach's feet isn't fair in my opinion. Do you honestly believe the coaches haven't encourage Joe to get rid of the football when there are obviously no receiving options and he's running towards the sidelines? I'm positive they have but on multiple occasions this season, we've watched Joe take sacks near the sidelines or senselessly run out of bounds on his own.

I'm sure they've encouraged him to go through his reads quicker, operate faster in the pocket, feel the rush better but those aren't skills a QB masters in three seasons.

Another issue has been pass protection. The only major issue I saw with the line this year that could have been corrected were Oher's false starts. You're not going to teach him to be significantly better at LT in his first season at the position in the pros. You're not going to get Birk to be a stronger run blocker in his late 30s. You're not going to teach Chester to be stronger as a run blocker or pass protector and you're definitely not going to get Yanda's arms to grow longer or make him more athletic.

You say there are so many obvious problems that weren't corrected? Do you realize that some problems, while obvious, can't be corrected within a season?

So wait, what QB magically develops into a franchise QB from one season to the next?

[berad]

[quote name='TheSim' timestamp='1295328117' post='614511']
My PB "starters": Ray Rice, Le'Ron McClain, Anquan Boldin, Todd Heap, Matt Birk, Derrick Mason, Housh, Stallworth. Obviously it's a stretch to call Stallworth a "starter", so I'll drop him off the list, along with Housh, since Housh last made the PB awhile ago. But Todd played the best football of the last 5-6 years in his great career this year, and would have made the PB if he hadn't been injured. Derrick played at a Pro Bowl level last year, but was overlooked because he's an old WR and there are a TON of great young WRs in the AFC right now. Anquan is still in his prime, pro bowl or not. Birk played at a pro bowl level last year. And Le'Ron made the PB last year and this year, and Ray is... well, he's Ray.

My point is that the talent is obviously there, and we were far and away more talented than we were last year, and yet we dropped from 13th to 22nd on offense. And that's actually with fewer turnovers, fewer injuries, and a whole lot less penalties than last year. How else do you explain that except that it's a coaching problem?
[/quote]

I love Todd Heap but let's not kid ourselves. He didn't finish in the top five in the AFC in catches, yardage, and tied for fifth in touchdowns. He only missed three games, too, Gates and Lewis deserved it well over him. Not discounting the fact that he had a good season, he did, but he wasn't one of the best.

Derrick Mason wasn't deserving of a Pro Bowl, either, he has one of his worst seasons in about five years. And for all the love I have for Heap, it's about doubled for D-Mase.

Matt Birk had an awful year. Jared Gaither wasn't the only reason our running game suffered and our pass protection looked confused at times.

Not arguing about Rice, McClain, or Boldin... I just think the players we have aren't as talented as you think.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='TheSim' timestamp='1295328117' post='614511']
My PB "starters": Ray Rice, Le'Ron McClain, Anquan Boldin, Todd Heap, Matt Birk, Derrick Mason, Housh, Stallworth. Obviously it's a stretch to call Stallworth a "starter", so I'll drop him off the list, along with Housh, since Housh last made the PB awhile ago. But Todd played the best football of the last 5-6 years in his great career this year, and would have made the PB if he hadn't been injured. Derrick played at a Pro Bowl level last year, but was overlooked because he's an old WR and there are a TON of great young WRs in the AFC right now. Anquan is still in his prime, pro bowl or not. Birk played at a pro bowl level last year. And Le'Ron made the PB last year and this year, and Ray is... well, he's Ray.

My point is that the talent is obviously there, and we were far and away more talented than we were last year, and yet we dropped from 13th to 22nd on offense. And that's actually with fewer turnovers, fewer injuries, and a whole lot less penalties than last year. How else do you explain that except that it's a coaching problem?
[/quote]

Again I ask you, just because Birk and Boldin have made Pro Bowls in the past, did either of them play at a Pro Bowl level this season? Boldin wasn't utilized properly all season in my opinion but I also saw him running lazy routes at times, not working back to the ball and in the biggest game of the season, made a huge drop when the ball came to him.

Birk did not play like a Pro Bowl player. Maybe he did in pass protection but he barely opened holes in the running game.

Todd would not have made the Pro Bowl had he not got hurt. He was outplayed by Gates in San Diego and Lewis in Jacksonville this season.

Mason didn't play like a Pro Bowl WR in my opinion. He made big-time plays but failed to get separation in some bigg games this season. Part of that was being forced to run streaks often but Mason is no longer a Pro Bowl performer.

What was a big reason the offense put up points last season? Because they could run the ball. You know who didn't play this season? [size="3"][b]Jared Gaither[/b][/size]. You know what his absence led to? Oher playing LT, a position he's clearly not great at. Chester starting -- he's not starting material. And Yanda playing RT -- a position he's not great either. On top of that, Birk got another year older and weaker.

I firmly believe, the o-line's decline play alone severely hurt this team's chances of having a good offense. We saw it in the rushing productivity alone. [size="2"][b]Rice and the team overall averaged a full yard less per rush than they did last[/b][/size]. That's not coaching. That's a decline in talent.

[TheSim]

No I'm positively sure they've tried to fix Joe's issues in those situations. And that's exactly why I think a change has to be made at the OC position. From year one to year two, Joe improved tremendously. But from year two to year three, he looked virtually indistinguishable from himself a year ago. He became marginally better at stepping up in the pocket and extending plays, but nothing worth writing home about. He threw fewer INTs, but it seemed like the only reason that was the case was that he refused to even try making any tough throws over the middle at all. Again, in five games against them, he played as badly against the Steelers and Bengals as he's ever played.

So the explanation is one of three things: his talent around him is no good (definitely not the case), he's just not cut out to be a franchise quarterback, or the people in charge of his development lack the ability to teach him to become a franchise quarterback.

[TheSim]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' timestamp='1295328860' post='614523']
What was a big reason the offense put up points last season? Because they could run the ball. You know who didn't play this season? [size="3"][b]Jared Gaither[/b][/size]. You know what his absence led to? Oher playing LT, a position he's clearly not great at. Chester starting -- he's not starting material. And Yanda playing RT -- a position he's not great either. On top of that, Birk got another year older and weaker.

I firmly believe, the o-line's decline play alone severely hurt this team's chances of having a good offense. We saw it in the rushing productivity alone. [size="2"][b]Rice and the team overall averaged a full yard less per rush than they did last[/b][/size]. That's not coaching. That's a decline in talent.
[/quote]

So we lose one starter, and our center drops off in one aspect of his play, and that's the core reason why our offense dropped into the bottom 25% of the NFL? That stuff is mundane - find one team in the NFL that didn't lose at least one starter on their OL. Birk may have dropped off, but Grubbs and Chester should be a year better over last year to offset that. Despite the false starts (which will be corrected next year), Oher played fine. He was good in pass blocking (when Joe didn't stand still in the pocket for 5 seconds), very good in run blocking, and some of our most successful designed plays (screens) involved him getting downfield in a hurry, in ways I never saw Gaither do last year.

Another point: Can you imagine how much MORE inept our offense would have been had it not been for Ray Rice catching check downs and turning them into first downs?

[berad]

[quote name='TheSim' timestamp='1295329754' post='614538']
So we lose one starter, and our center drops off in one aspect of his play, and that's the core reason why our offense dropped into the bottom 25% of the NFL? That stuff is mundane - find one team in the NFL that didn't lose at least one starter on their OL. Birk may have dropped off, but Grubbs and Chester should be a year better over last year to offset that. Despite the false starts (which will be corrected next year), Oher played fine. He was good in pass blocking (when Joe didn't stand still in the pocket for 5 seconds), very good in run blocking, and some of our most successful designed plays (screens) involved him getting downfield in a hurry, in ways I never saw Gaither do last year.

Another point: Can you imagine how much MORE inept our offense would have been had it not been for Ray Rice catching check downs and turning them into first downs?
[/quote]

We also had to shift our starting RG to RT in lieu of a far inferior back-up. Also, Michael Oher proved that he's a far better RT than LT. So, in fact, 60% of our OL was shuffled from 2009.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='TheSim' timestamp='1295329065' post='614529']
No I'm positively sure they've tried to fix Joe's issues in those situations. And that's exactly why I think a change has to be made at the OC position. From year one to year two, Joe improved tremendously. But from year two to year three, he looked virtually indistinguishable from himself a year ago. He became marginally better at stepping up in the pocket and extending plays, but nothing worth writing home about. He threw fewer INTs, but it seemed like the only reason that was the case was that he refused to even try making any tough throws over the middle at all. Again, in five games against them, he played as badly against the Steelers and Bengals as he's ever played.

So the explanation is one of three things: his talent around him is no good (definitely not the case), he's just not cut out to be a franchise quarterback, or the people in charge of his development lack the ability to teach him to become a franchise quarterback.
[/quote]

I disagree Joe was "virtually indistinguishable" comparing this season to last. Really, how often were routes designed to go over the middle? There certainly were times when Joe chose to attack the boundary as opposed to the middle even when people were open but I can confidently say comebacks and curls are more common in Cam's play-book than crossing routes, slants and ins.

Well, he put the team on his back to get the win in the first Steelers game so let's give him credit for that. He was very poor in both Bengals games, to a lesser extent in the second Steelers and Saturday night as well but how much help was he given? We trump up the great QBs but often forget when they play well, it was usually because they were afforded time in the pocket and their WRs caught catchable balls. No one can tell me Joe was given tons of help in either of the four games against the Bengals or Steelers games we're talking about.

To your final point, has it occurred to you that maybe it's a combination of all three? The talent around him isn't as great as some people believe. He's obviously an unfinished product and may never be the consistent big-time QB some thought he could be. And I, and others think Cam has done things to **** his development.

[quote name='TheSim' timestamp='1295329754' post='614538']
So we lose one starter, and our center drops off in one aspect of his play, and that's the core reason why our offense dropped into the bottom 25% of the NFL? Birk may have dropped off, but Grubbs and Chester should be a year better over last year to offset that. Despite the false starts (which will be corrected next year), Oher played fine. He was good in pass blocking (when Joe didn't stand still in the pocket for 5 seconds), very good in run blocking, and some of our most successful designed plays (screens) involved him getting downfield in a hurry, in ways I never saw Gaither do last year.

Another point: Can you imagine how much MORE inept our offense would have been had it not been for Ray Rice catching check downs and turning them into first downs?
[/quote]

Hell yes!

Chester was not a starter in 2009 so how can he be a year better? The guy wasn't a starter for a reason. He's not strong at the point of attack and countless times this season, I saw him either on his butt or turned around facing Joe because he'd been beat. I noticed you chose not to address the tackles playing out position as another issue the o-line play dropped. [b]That's huge[/b]!

Oher did [b]NOT[/b] play "fine". Against the best pass rushers, he got absolutely worked. Harrison schooled him every game. Cunningham beat him a number of times. Wake abused him AND Yanda. Abraham absolutely worked him. Cincinatti's ends gave him fits too. You're in denial if you feel differently.

Yes, Oher is a very athletic guy for his size and I frequently saw him making great blocks in the run game and on screens but when a team knows you can only run to one side of the field, they shut it down. How many times did you see the Ravens run a toss or screen to right side of the field this season? Be honest with yourself. It wasn't often [b]AT ALL[/b].

Last season, the Ravens could run tosses, pitches and stretches to either side because their tackles and guards were strong on both sides. That was obviously not the case this season.

Of course it would have been more inept. Rice is one of the best RBs in the league. His knee injury aside, he didn't decline as a player so why did he average a full yard less per rush? I'm pretty sure the o-line play had something to do with it.

[littleray27]

[quote name='TheSim' timestamp='1295323771' post='614419']
He can build a good team, he can beat bad teams, he can get us into the playoffs with consistency, but he can't get us a Super Bowl. I was a huge Harbaugh supporter for the first two years, but when it comes to Cam Cameron, I'm not going to let Harbaugh continue to you-know-what down my leg and tell me it's raining. In my line of work, if your company hires you one of the best support staffs in the country, but your productivity drops by 50% compared to last year, you get fired. Especially when week in and week out, your failures are obvious to everyone but yourself, and you continue to fail in precisely the same ways.

Lets put it this way: if the offense sputters and fails again next year, Harbaugh needs to go down along with Cam, because he will have proven without a doubt what seems obvious right now: he's just another Andy Reid.
[/quote]

You are preaching to the wrong crowd. The majority of the fans that frequent this site are perfectlyt happy with falling short for the past three seasons, and will go to the bitter end to defend failure in the playoffs for three consecutive seasons. Of course they will always say "what do you expect, to go to the super bowl and win it every year" you damn right I do. What else are they playing for? Oh that's right to be consistent in getting to the playoffs and falling short each season. Hell yeah, maybe next season we can get to the AFC championship game again and lose it once again. Well one things for certain and two things for sure, they are staying consistent with that formula. Way to go Ravens, enjoy watching the Steelers win yet another super bowl (more than likely). Yet another thing they are staying consistent with, handing the ticket to the Steelers and sending them on their way. Bravo gentlemen lmao!

[FerrariFan87]

Obviously we can't see it on TV, but I think part of the problem of "no one being open" is Joe failing to make his reads fast enough, if at all...