Conspiracy Theorists

[thewarden86]

[quote name='ravensdfan' timestamp='1295320694' post='614352']
I will agree that the early penalty on Ward should have been offsetting. I could argue that the phantom holding call down at our goal line should have been offsetting as well since everyone clearly saw the Steelers linemen with his arm around JJ's throat, taking him to the ground.

Yardage does not tell the whole story though. With penalties, it is more about the timing of the penalty and what is negated by it (such as a TD or 1st down) or given by it (such as the one that gave the Steelers 4 more pops at the end zone).

There were some bogus penalties called in this game. IMO it was more the non calls that played a factor. [b]Ward shoving Reed in the back after the play was dead. [/b]The head butt to Housh. Keno's FIRST dive into the pile head first after the play was dead. When the other team is allowed to take such shots at your players and there is no flag, it plays on the psyche of the team.
[/quote]

NOW I remember that. Yep, should have been flagged, but like you said, so should have Reed earlier.

I'm not concerned about the head butt. From what I understand the Ravens players are always doing that to our guys (per Ryan Clark I think).

Holds don't always bother me....well they do, but as long as they're called at least some of the time. Harrison is constantly being mugged and tackled. That happened at the hand of Oher more than once and wasn't called.

I agree about the psyche of the team. But it works both ways.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='ravensdfan' timestamp='1295320694' post='614352']
I will agree that the early penalty on Ward should have been offsetting. I could argue that the phantom holding call down at our goal line should have been offsetting as well since everyone clearly saw the Steelers linemen with his arm around JJ's throat, taking him to the ground.

Yardage does not tell the whole story though. With penalties, it is more about the timing of the penalty and what is negated by it (such as a TD or 1st down) or given by it (such as the one that gave the Steelers 4 more pops at the end zone).

There were some bogus penalties called in this game. IMO it was more the non calls that played a factor. Ward shoving Reed in the back after the play was dead. The head butt to Housh. [b]Keno's FIRST dive into the pile head first after the play was dead.[/b] When the other team is allowed to take such shots at your players and there is no flag, it plays on the psyche of the team.
[/quote]

If there was a non-call that pissed me off the most, it was that one. The refs threw a flag AFTER Mendenhall scored late in the game but chose not to do it the first time Kemo crashed into the pile, even both instances were equally egregious. Listening to the radio, a fan said he saw Kemo do it three times.

I'm in no way blaming the loss on the referees because that's just weak but holding aside(because that can be called on every play in the NFL), I saw far more non-calls that went the Steelers way.

[thewarden86]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' timestamp='1295321026' post='614364']
If there was a non-call that pissed me off the most, it was that one. The refs threw a flag AFTER Mendenhall scored late in the game but chose not to do it the first time Kemo crashed into the pile, even both instances were equally egregious. Listening to the radio, a fan said he saw Kemo do it three times.

I'm in no way blaming the loss on the referees because that's just weak but holding aside(because that can be called on every play in the NFL), [b]I saw far more non-calls that went the Steelers way.[/b]
[/quote]

We as fans always do. I'd say it's 3-1 in penalties that should have been called against your opponent vs. penalties you can admit you got away with.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='thewarden86' timestamp='1295321327' post='614376']
We as fans always do. I'd say it's 3-1 in penalties that should have been called against your opponent vs. penalties you can admit you got away with.
[/quote]

I disagree. When it comes to penalties, I think I'm fairly objective. The Steelers player [i]was[/i] held by Marcus Smith. Ed [i]did[/i] grab Ward's facemask.

To be honest, I discount whatever holding I see in football because I honestly believe refs pick and choose when to throw flags on them. If it's blatantly obvious, they usually throw the flag. If not, they'll pocket it.

The PI on Wallace was bogus in my opinion but that it happened early in the game, I can let it go.

I think the refs could have called Ike Taylor on his head-butt but it was difficult to notice with the naked eye.

Kemo plowing into a pile at least twice and only being flagged once was pathetic.

[DMH_in_WA]

I don't think there's any kind of conspiracy, but I did think it was humorous that the NFL's own show, "The NFL's Top 10 Most Controversial Calls", had the Steelers involved in 3 of the 10 plays and in all cases went the Steelers' way. It's that type of thing that fuels the talk, but I think it's just talk.

The calls, btw were:

#8 - Superbowl XL against Seahawks (offensive pass interference call in the endzone - although everyone here in Seattle thinks the whole game was controversial and a setup)

#5 - '79 AFC Championship Game against Oilers (Mike Renfro's TD catch that they called incomplete)

#1 - '72 AFC Divisional game against Raiders (Immaculate Reception)

DMH

[thewarden86]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' timestamp='1295321611' post='614384']
I disagree. When it comes to penalties, I think I'm fairly objective. The Steelers player [i]was[/i] held by Marcus Smith. Ed [i]did[/i] grab Ward's facemask.

To be honest, I discount whatever holding I see in football because I honestly believe refs pick and choose when to throw flags on them. If it's blatantly obvious, they usually throw the flag. If not, they'll pocket it.

The PI on Wallace was bogus in my opinion but that it happened early in the game, I can let it go.

I think the refs could have called Ike Taylor on his head-butt but it was difficult to notice with the naked eye.

Kemo plowing into a pile at least twice and only being flagged once was pathetic.
[/quote]

From my experience, fans (aside from you) will always tell you what flags should have been thrown on their opponents. Not so much on their team. I don't always see the holds by our o-line, but I see them by yours, etc. For instance, no one here has said a word about the mugging/tackling of James Harrison that happens between 3 and 5 times every time we meet. That's my point.

The P.I. on Wallace could have been a non-call and I wouldn't have had a problem with it, but I wouldn't call it bogus. The defender (the rookie?) gave him an arm bar. After that it was jostling and it almost appeared like Wallace was pulling the dude with him. That's probably because at the point where it seemed odd, the ball was in the air and Mike was trying to get a bead on it.

Blatantly obvious to me is the DE/OLB beating the tackle around the edge and being held, tackled to the ground and landed on (from behind) a few feet from the QB. The only reason I can think of where those aren't called is because they aren't seen.

[ravensdfan]

[quote name='DMH_in_WA' timestamp='1295321671' post='614385']
I don't think there's any kind of conspiracy, but I did think it was humorous that the NFL's own show, "The NFL's Top 10 Most Controversial Calls", had the Steelers involved in 3 of the 10 plays and in all cases went the Steelers' way. It's that type of thing that fuels the talk, but I think it's just talk.

The calls, btw were:

#8 - Superbowl XL against Seahawks (offensive pass interference call in the endzone - although everyone here in Seattle thinks the whole game was controversial and a setup)

#5 - '79 AFC Championship Game against Oilers (Mike Renfro's TD catch that they called incomplete)

#1 - '72 AFC Divisional game against Raiders (Immaculate Reception)

DMH
[/quote]

Not to fuel the flame but don't you find it interesting that not only are they all calls that went the Steelers' way but they are all playoff games?

[thewarden86]

[quote name='DMH_in_WA' timestamp='1295321671' post='614385']
I don't think there's any kind of conspiracy, but I did think it was humorous that the NFL's own show, "The NFL's Top 10 Most Controversial Calls", had the Steelers involved in 3 of the 10 plays and in all cases went the Steelers' way. It's that type of thing that fuels the talk, but I think it's just talk.

The calls, btw were:

#8 - Superbowl XL against Seahawks (offensive pass interference call in the endzone - although everyone here in Seattle thinks the whole game was controversial and a setup)[/quote]

That was a push off. Ticky tack? Maybe, but clear as day.

[quote name='DMH_in_WA' timestamp='1295321671' post='614385']#5 - '79 AFC Championship Game against Oilers (Mike Renfro's TD catch that they called incomplete)[/quote]
That was a tough call. I think everyone has since acknowledged it should have been a TD. Ask any Steelers players though and it wouldn't have made a bit of difference.

[quote name='DMH_in_WA' timestamp='1295321671' post='614385']#1 - '72 AFC Divisional game against Raiders (Immaculate Reception)

DMH
[/quote]

Nothing to say here really. This is also known as one of the greatest plays in NFL history.

[thewarden86]

[quote name='ravensdfan' timestamp='1295322117' post='614393']
Not to fuel the flame but don't you find it interesting that not only are they all calls that went the Steelers' way but they are all playoff games?
[/quote]

We've gotten screwed in playoff games too.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='thewarden86' timestamp='1295322047' post='614392']
From my experience, fans (aside from you) will always tell you what flags should have been thrown on their opponents. Not so much on their team. I don't always see the holds by our o-line, but I see them by yours, etc. For instance, no one here has said a word about the mugging/tackling of James Harrison that happens between 3 and 5 times every time we meet. That's my point.

The P.I. on Wallace could have been a non-call and I wouldn't have had a problem with it, but I wouldn't call it bogus. The defender (the rookie?) gave him an arm bar. After that it was jostling and it almost appeared like Wallace was pulling the dude with him. That's probably because at the point where it seemed odd, the ball was in the air and Mike was trying to get a bead on it.

Blatantly obvious to me is the DE/OLB beating the tackle around the edge and being held, tackled to the ground and landed on (from behind) a few feet from the QB. The only reason I can think of where those aren't called is because they aren't seen.
[/quote]

Harrison definitely gets mugged every time Harrison times plays the Ravens. That's been the case every year since '07. In the same vein, when Suggs isn't driving Steekers o-lineman into the backfield, he gets held at times too. Hell, on the play Cody was called for defensive holding, I could have sworn I saw Jarret Johnson get tackled by a Steeler. But again, the refs see some holds but don't others.

Wilson isn't a rookie. I could somewhat understand why the refs threw the flag. I didn't like it upon seeing the replay but it is what it is.

Yep.

[OLD SCHOOL SMASH BALL]

That one ref near the endzone was clearly wearing yellow under his zebra. Everything he called was for the squeelers.

[DMH_in_WA]

[quote name='thewarden86' timestamp='1295322240' post='614395']
That was a push off. Ticky tack? Maybe, but clear as day.
[/quote]

Agreed. I don't think you call that in the Superbowl, but it is what it is. What I think sticks in the craw of the Seahawks' fans isn't that it was called. It was that through that entire game, every major call went against them in crucial situations and comparable violations by the Steelers didn't draw flags.

Honestly, I've watched a replay of that game a couple times with friends over the years and I can't say they're wrong. Didn't make anyone out here feel any better when Leavey admitted to blowing at least 2 calls.

But, like I said, it is what it is and nothing is going to change it.

DMH

[ravenwildman]

I think there is something to the "influence" against the Ravens. Schedule and Refs. Maybe has something to do with powerful $$ people that have a "disdain" for the Ravens. I mean why isn't Art Modell in the HOF? But....what can you do?

[FerrariFan87]

The Steelers, Duke Blue Devils, and Yankees all get favorable treatment more often than not if refereeing/umpiring is supposed to be impartial. What do they all have in common? They win championships, and that garners respect, and the officials are more likely to turn the other way... also see: Kobe Bryant, LeBron James, and other superstars in every major sport. Winning and/or a high profile gets you more favorable treatment, that's just how it works.

[ravensdfan]

[quote name='FerrariFan87' timestamp='1295324627' post='614438']
The Steelers, Duke Blue Devils, and Yankees all get favorable treatment more often than not if refereeing/umpiring is supposed to be impartial. What do they all have in common? They win championships, and that garners respect, and the officials are more likely to turn the other way... also see: Kobe Bryant, LeBron James, and other superstars in every major sport. Winning and/or a high profile gets you more favorable treatment, that's just how it works.
[/quote]

Personally, in regards strictly to the NFL, I think market share has a lot to do with it. Hence why the Steelers get favorable treatment. In the end, since the NFL doesn't like that little First Amendment thing about free speech, and the players and coaches cannot even criticize the refs without garnering a fine and other than perhaps the crew not getting a playoff game or the SB (and more money for that) there is absolutely no recourse for a clearly biased crew. So why shouldn't they do what they do? What are the consequences? None.

[DMH_in_WA]

[quote name='FerrariFan87' timestamp='1295324627' post='614438']
also see: Kobe Bryant, LeBron James, and other superstars in every major sport. Winning and/or a high profile gets you more favorable treatment, that's just how it works.
[/quote]

Now this I could see. I don't think their is a conscious effort by anyone, but it's a proven fact that crowds influence officials (they're only human) and officials sometimes rely on what they have seen to determine what they are seeing.

Anyone remember Nolan Ryan in his prime? He was so accurate that even when his pitch was 8" outside, if the umpire didn't get a clear view of it the call usually went his way.

Of course, there's still the phantom roughing the passer call on Suggs against Brady. I still don't know how you justify that one.

DMH

[Moderator 2]

The scheduling the Ravens get is some of the worst known to sports. Superbowl teams usually open the season on the Thursday/Monday--did we? Oh no we got the Bears 1pm on a Sunday afternoon. Night games in December, lost Bye week due to hurricanes -anyone else they would have tried harder--impacted the entire season. seems like every Steeler game is prime time away. Our best weather is in October and rarely is there a home game, no home MNF game in 3 years yet all the other playoff teams get them, and the only ref the Ravens get a fair deal from is Ed Hochuli-- it is what is, Welcome to the life of a Ravens fan lol

[Malkavian Raven]

[font="Century Gothic"]I've spent the past couple of days resting & letting the loss sink in. Sucks to say the least. Anyway, here goes...

1.) The entire season was a huge step forward. Having a fourth-quarter lead in every game this year goes to show you the the team is moving in the right direction. We very well could have been 16-0 this season. As has been stated time & time again, they just need to finish opponents and quit letting them 'hang around'.

2.) Another positive was watching our offense shift gears in the playoffs. The entire regular season you just kept waiting for that breakout game that never happened. Then in KC, we just never let up on the accelerator & that momentum really carried over into Pittsburgh. 21-7 at the half, I like most, felt we had them up against the ropes. I understand the idea of wanting to run the ball, run down the clock but the fumble, the botched snap and penalties killed our lead. As it has been said by BR.com, if the Ravens are going to be "the" organization to contend with in the AFC North, they've got to find a way to beat Pittsburgh w/ Ben under center.

3.) Harbaugh's extension was well deserved in my eyes. Hopefully, most of our roster will be back next year & we can make it to the post-season 4-years in a row!

4.) "Moving forward w/ Cameron", I'd have to say I'm 50/50 on this one. I'd be more inclined to give the thumbs-up as long as we play at the same level we did in the playoffs but do so all year round.

5.) Lastly, back on topic, I stated in another thread that Triplett & his crew were flag happy -- so, I'm not surprised by the amount of yellow I saw on the field. Regardless, I think it was about as fair a ball game as one could expect any Ravens-Steelers game to be officiated. Obviously, there are some plays the team wishes they could have back (fumble, botched snap, Boldin's drop, Housh's drop, Webb's TD return, etc.). I don't think any one in particular killed us, but those combined with the costly turnovers & penalties just spelled doom.

I haven't bothered checking any highlight reels cause I'd just prefer not to relive it -- but having been at the game, sitting in the nosebleeds above the tunnel -- someone want to elaborate why Housh was going after the official after his reception?

Anyway, Heinz Field -- enemy territory -- is a great place to see a game. Even the nosebleeds aren't bad seats. We got there early enough to mingle with some of the Steelers' fans in line & during warm-ups, so they weren't too hard on us with the Ravens being up at the half. Of course, the mild-mannered teasing did start in once the Steelers tied things up. All-in-all, a much better experience than being at a Ravens-Bengals game. Just glad there were no pictures of the shock-&-awe expressions of the family's faces posted on the internet.

[i]~ Malkavian Raven[/i][/font]

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='Malkavian Raven' timestamp='1295333038' post='614570']
I haven't bothered checking any highlight reels cause I'd just prefer not to relive it -- but having been at the game, sitting in the nosebleeds above the tunnel -- someone want to elaborate why Housh was going after the official after his reception?
[/quote]

Skip to 1:26 of the video for your answer.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwnJLdb7M8s[/media]

[Malkavian Raven]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' timestamp='1295333224' post='614571']
Skip to 1:26 of the video for your answer.
[/quote]

[font="Century Gothic"]Gotcha. Thanks.

[i]~ Malkavian Raven

PS: That's called a 'love tap'.[/i][/font]

[Ed_Reed_Pick_Six]

It's hardly 'conspiracy theory' material.

Major sports leagues such as the NFL will always favour storied franchises winning again and again. Pittsburgh is one of the (if not the) most popular franchise in professional football.

Exposure to these huge, nationwide, and to an extent, international markets, is most important to the NFL. So of course the Steelers will always get the rub of the green against the Ravens, per se.

[Guest RBates]

Easy answer the owner is ambassador to Ireland. Pittsburgh has the biggest fan base in football. Football is a business and they have the biggest market. Nfl is in the business of making money.

[admartian]

The calls were terrible. I don't care if the other team got called for a hundred penalties, but if they're mostly inconsequential and/or at non-crucial points, then they're essentially hiccups.

P.I call, non-hold on Webb TD, and non calls throughout REALLY hurt.

However, I believe Cam Cameron is the main reason we lost, and the coverage on that 3rd down conversion.

[RedFire]

[quote name='Moderator 2' timestamp='1295332726' post='614565']
The scheduling the Ravens get is some of the worst known to sports. Superbowl teams usually open the season on the Thursday/Monday--did we? Oh no we got the Bears 1pm on a Sunday afternoon. Night games in December, lost Bye week due to hurricanes -anyone else they would have tried harder--impacted the entire season. seems like every Steeler game is prime time away. Our best weather is in October and rarely is there a home game, no home MNF game in 3 years yet all the other playoff teams get them, and the only ref the Ravens get a fair deal from is Ed Hochuli-- it is what is, Welcome to the life of a Ravens fan lol
[/quote]



2006 when we went 13-3...by the mid-point of the season we got flexed to 4pm and knocked the steelers off that CBS high coverage time slot. I was in south carolina at the time and saw all the 2nd half season games. and in 2007 we had 4 primetime games along with the denver broncos to lead the NFL.

we blew the spotlight...hence ravens fans hated primetimes games when in fact it was due to our injury plagued 07 season. O7' 1st primetime game was against the colts with the debut of organized chaos in the all black uni's and colts whipped our buts.

Ravens are too unpredictable to get a lot of big primetime games at m&t bank...and ravens fans hate prime time games as well....

[RedFire]

[quote name='Ed_Reed_Pick_Six' timestamp='1295335293' post='614588']
It's hardly 'conspiracy theory' material.

Major sports leagues such as the NFL will always favour storied franchises winning again and again. Pittsburgh is one of the (if not the) most popular franchise in professional football.

Exposure to these huge, nationwide, and to an extent, international markets, is most important to the NFL. So of course the Steelers will always get the rub of the green against the Ravens, per se.
[/quote]


and if we still had the colts....i don't think we'd have the same issues with the refs. they took away our storied franchise.

[flynismo]

So...the general consensus is that it's not a conspiracy, just preferential treatment in order to help the money making teams?Sounds like more or less the same thing.

[Rinbee]

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1295283654' post='612594']
I usually ignore rants about 'the refs are out to get us'. Let's face it, they are human and mistakes will happen. Heck, back in week one we actually benefitted from a very questionable flag (thrown on Braylon for roughing the kicker).

But this game really got my mind thinking about things.

Just over the past three years alone, three of our games versus PIT resulted in a Steeler victory in which a flag played a huge factor in the end result.

Then I think about our games against other teams. For example, our other divisional rivals. In the same time span, not a single one of those games against CLE or CIN were significantly affected by officiating. All in all, our games against those two teams are about as evenly officiated as can be expected, controversial flags are rare and when they do occur they seem to balance out and are never a game changing event.

Then I look over the years ... How many times have the Steelers won games (not just against us) that were influenced by a very questionable flag?

I have to wonder why it is that we have so many games decided by controversial flags when we play PIT, yet our games against other division rivals are uneventful, despite the same ref crews.

Is it a conspiracy?

I'm not so quick to brush that theory off anymore.
[/quote]



Refs are human like the rest of us and subject to bias. It is possible that questionable flags are thrown at critical times out of an error in judgment, incompetence, or even a desire to change the outcome of the game. It happened in the NBA. But I will point out that flags on critical plays get magnified and we give them more attention than they may deserve. If a game were played dead even, it’s a lot easier and maybe justifiable to question a questionable call. (This is why I believe if replay is going to be used some of the time it should be used all of the time.) But, when you have a game where the Ravens can muster only 28 yards in an entire half and the Steelers TOP is 9 minutes longer than the Raven’s, the Ravens allowed that call to be more significant than it should have been. In other words, shame on the refs for a bad call, if it was, but shame on the Ravens even more for putting themselves in a position where a penalty and two incomplete passes became the focal points of the game. Were the fumbles and 3 and outs the result of bad officiating? Again, there may be some bias, some preference for Pitt over Balt, but the Ravens allowed it to reach a point were a few mistakes became the reason for losing a game.

[thewarden86]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' timestamp='1295322859' post='614402']
Harrison definitely gets mugged every time Harrison times plays the Ravens. That's been the case every year since '07. In the same vein, when Suggs isn't driving Steekers o-lineman into the backfield, he gets held at times too. Hell, on the play Cody was called for defensive holding, I could have sworn I saw Jarret Johnson get tackled by a Steeler. But again, the refs see some holds but don't others.

Wilson isn't a rookie. I could somewhat understand why the refs threw the flag. I didn't like it upon seeing the replay but it is what it is.

Yep.
[/quote]

For the record (and for the other readers), I'm not complaining about non-calls. Just continuing our conversation about fans and their personal observations. You're more observant and rational about it than most.

[thewarden86]

[quote name='DMH_in_WA' timestamp='1295323587' post='614414']
Agreed. I don't think you call that in the Superbowl, but it is what it is. What I think sticks in the craw of the Seahawks' fans isn't that it was called. It was that through that entire game, every major call went against them in crucial situations and comparable violations by the Steelers didn't draw flags.

Honestly, I've watched a replay of that game a couple times with friends over the years and I can't say they're wrong. Didn't make anyone out here feel any better when Leavey admitted to blowing at least 2 calls.

But, like I said, it is what it is and nothing is going to change it.

DMH
[/quote]


I think they were getting aggravated as it was, then the refs missed an off sides on Haggans, but the cherry on top was that low block on Hasselbeck who tried to tackle Ike Taylor.

Conspiracy? Definitely not and they had multiple chances to win that game.

[Moderator 2]

[quote name='RedFire' timestamp='1295347075' post='614680']
2006 when we went 13-3...by the mid-point of the season we got flexed to 4pm and knocked the steelers off that CBS high coverage time slot. I was in south carolina at the time and saw all the 2nd half season games. and in 2007 we had 4 primetime games along with the denver broncos to lead the NFL.

we blew the spotlight...hence ravens fans hated primetimes games when in fact it was due to our injury plagued 07 season. O7' 1st primetime game was against the colts with the debut of organized chaos in the all black uni's and colts whipped our buts.
[b]
Ravens are too unpredictable to get a lot of big primetime games at m&t bank...and ravens fans hate prime time games as well.[/b]...
[/quote]

I really hate Primetime games but I was just stoking the 'Theory' . The MNF after Superbowl really stung because it would have been the first I could have gone to because of being a mom with young kids I never made it, I think it was a Jewish Holiday so there would have been no school on Tuesday--I NEVER FORGET lol I ended giving my ticket to a friend who froze her *** off in Jan. because the game had been rescheduled because of 911.