"i Am An Elite Quarterback" --- Joe Flacco ---

[3-4ravdef509]

[quote name='wayne' timestamp='1302939852' post='665970']
Just read through this thread and the reasons people always come up with saying Flacco is elite is playoff wins. They mentioned other reasons but this be their last resort of defense for saying Flacco is elite.
[/quote]

I think the issue isn't that he's elite. Most here agree he's not there yet, except the big homers. The issues rather, is whether or not he has what it takes, and to what degree do we criticize his supposed flaws, such as holding the ball too long, fumbles at LOS, etc. A few of them are on him, while others are inherent problems of the system he plays in. And playoff wins in his first 3 years, his clutch and near clutch moments, and overall performance as a young player without the best coaching and weapons all seem to be signs that he will make that next step.

[Militant X 1]

[quote name='3-4ravdef509' timestamp='1302957175' post='665984']
I think the issue isn't that he's elite. Most here agree he's not there yet, except the big homers. The issues rather, is whether or not he has what it takes, and [b]to what degree do we criticize his supposed flaws, such as holding the ball too long, fumbles at LOS, etc. A few of them are on him, while others are inherent problems of the system he plays in.[/b] And playoff wins in his first 3 years, his clutch and near clutch moments, and overall performance as a young player without the best coaching and weapons all seem to be signs that he will make that next step.
[/quote]

you make a good point!

however, in my observation, Flacco touches the ball EVERY snap! he is at the helm of this Ravens offensive ship and therefore, criticism and extreme scrutiny comes with that QB position...period! sure, there are other contributing factors that may add to his poor gameplay at times (i.e. failed protections schemes resulting in fumbles, dropped passes by the receivers and poor-play call etc.) but even in that, the young man still has to execute when given the opportunities present before him!

sooner or later cats in here are gonna have to own up to the fact that Flacco is a good QB and a decent one at best! and pretending or "attempting" to make him an elite QB by mentioning his playoff wins or bringing up the few games where he may have looked impressive are actually futile!

~Mili

[Guest ArmyRaven52]

I think the people who mention playoff wins we should take a look into those. His first year miserable playoff performance. He was a rookie though so it is understasndable. Second year ray rice won the game, flacco attempted what 9 passes in the patriots game, played terrible in the indy game, third year our d gave him 5 turnovers in the kansas city game so I mean come on dare I say rex grossman could have done that. The Pittgame he hit some open receivers and they dropped so yeah Ill give him that but still the interception was a terrible ball. I am going to say it is unfair to judge him off of that though because like many have pointed out we have a terrible OC, we dont have receivers that compliment joe well (he has a huge arm get someone to stretch the field.) So to evaluate him correctly get him what he needs to succeed then we can finally end this debate.

[3-4ravdef509]

[quote name='PITCH52BLACK' timestamp='1302965483' post='666000']
you make a good point!

however, in my observation, Flacco touches the ball EVERY snap! he is at the helm of this Ravens offensive ship and therefore, criticism and extreme scrutiny comes with that QB position...period! sure, there are other contributing factors that may add to his poor gameplay at times (i.e. failed protections schemes resulting in fumbles, dropped passes by the receivers and poor-play call etc.) but even in that, the young man still has to execute when given the opportunities present before him!

sooner or later cats in here are gonna have to own up to the fact that Flacco is a good QB and a decent one at best! and pretending or "attempting" to make him an elite QB by mentioning his playoff wins or bringing up the few games where he may have looked impressive are actually futile!

~Mili
[/quote]

I think no one, not you or me, can decide what Flacco is. His career has just begun, and he could improve or worsen. So I won't own up to the fact that he's just good or decent, because I first of all don't entirely agree with that statement, and second of all because there isn't any way of evaluating a quarterback's potential.

I will go further and say I believe our fan base is very critical of all players. We all remember or have seen Unitas play, and then we've all seen the horrible assembly line of quarterbacks we've had over the past decade and a half. For those reasons, we seem to put more pressure on Flacco than other teams put on their respective quarterbacks. Most fans of other teams that you talk to think we're pretty lucky to have Flacco. So I'm gonna say this. I'm done playing the name game. Elite, good, great, decent, i don't care. Flacco is what he is, and what he is, is someone who I've come to admire. He isn't perfect, but his demeanor and work ethic are. This guy has what it takes to lead us to a title. We just have to make sure we're helping his chances, not hurting them.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='PITCH52BLACK' timestamp='1302965483' post='666000']
you make a good point!

however, in my observation, Flacco touches the ball EVERY snap! he is at the helm of this Ravens offensive ship and therefore, criticism and extreme scrutiny comes with that QB position...period! sure, there are other contributing factors that may add to his poor gameplay at times (i.e. failed protections schemes resulting in fumbles, dropped passes by the receivers and poor-play call etc.) but even in that, [b]the young man still has to execute when given the opportunities present before him![/b]

[b]sooner or later cats in here are gonna have to own up to the fact that Flacco is a good QB and a decent one at best![/b] and pretending or "attempting" to make him an elite QB by mentioning his playoff wins or bringing up the few games where he may have looked impressive are actually futile!

~Mili
[/quote]

But in a number of key games in recent years, he has executed only to let down by his teammates around him -- the play-off game against the Steelers last season offering multiple examples of that. I'm no Flacco apologist and one could easily produce even more examples where [i]he[/i] failed to execute. However, it's stupid when he seemingly takes all the blame from some people for the offense's futility at times or people expect him to carry the offense against the best teams in spite of all it's issues.

To your other point, that's not a fact, it's an opinion. The same way John Clayton is entitled to his opinion that Flacco is elite(as ridiculous as that viewpoint may seem).

People really don't need to get worked up over the "elite" label. As much as we as Ravens fan despise him, Big Ben is often left out of "elite QBs" discussions but has more rings than all but one of the QBs usually ranked head of him.

[Militant X 1]

[quote name='3-4ravdef509' timestamp='1302975427' post='666028']
[b]I think no one, not you or me, can decide what Flacco is[/b]. His career has just begun, and he could improve or worsen. So I won't own up to the fact that he's just good or decent, because I first of all don't entirely agree with that statement, and second of all because there isn't any way of evaluating a quarterback's potential.

I will go further and say I believe our fan base is very critical of all players. We all remember or have seen Unitas play, and then we've all seen the horrible assembly line of quarterbacks we've had over the past decade and a half. For those reasons, we seem to put more pressure on Flacco than other teams put on their respective quarterbacks. Most fans of other teams that you talk to think we're pretty lucky to have Flacco. So I'm gonna say this. I'm done playing the name game. Elite, good, great, decent, i don't care. [b]Flacco is what he is[/b], and what he is, is someone who I've come to admire. He isn't perfect, but his demeanor and work ethic are. This guy has what it takes to lead us to a title. We just have to make sure we're helping his chances, not hurting them.
[/quote]

see..that's just it! i haven't defined Flacco. to me....his gameplay for the past 3 years have done that for him! and....if it came down to my choice of a QB (not team...a QB) to lead us back from a 21 point deficit and i had a choice between Manning, Brady, Brees and Flacco. well...my choice wouldn't be Flacco. but that's just me!

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' timestamp='1302976433' post='666032']
But in a number of key games in recent years, he has executed only to let down by his teammates around him -- the play-off game against the Steelers last season offering multiple examples of that. [b]I'm no Flacco apologist and one could easily produce even more examples where [i]he[/i] failed to execute.[/b] However, it's stupid when he seemingly takes all the blame from some people for the offense's futility at times or people expect him to carry the offense against the best teams in spite of all it's issues.

[b]To your other point, that's not a fact, it's an opinion.[/b] The same way John Clayton is entitled to his opinion that Flacco is elite(as ridiculous as that viewpoint may seem).

People really don't need to get worked up over the "elite" label. As much as we as Ravens fan despise him, Big Ben is often left out of "elite QBs" discussions but has more rings than all but one of the QBs usually ranked head of him.
[/quote]

i am not a Flacco basher either but if i was....that would be okay cause that would be my viewpoint about his gameplay. and nowhere in my post Ed did i mention the word "fact." my opinion (as yours and others here) is just that...it's my opinion! therefore it needs no validation from others here! we all see things differently and our viewpoints are different. with that being said...to me....Flacco is a decent QB but has a lot to clean up in his gameplay before he ascends to the next level at the QB spot.

~Mili

[ravensdfan]

[quote name='PITCH52BLACK' timestamp='1303072873' post='666436']
see..that's just it! i haven't defined Flacco. to me....his gameplay for the past 3 years have done that for him! and....if it came down to my choice of a QB (not team...a QB) to lead us back from a 21 point deficit and i had a choice between Manning, Brady, Brees and Flacco. well...my choice wouldn't be Flacco. but that's just me!

-Mili
[/quote]
I cannot believe that this post was awakened from the dead yet again but...I did get a laugh out of your comment above.

Brady - his team lost when he failed to put together that comeback drive. They only needed 7 to tie, not 21.

Manning - lost in the WC round in which Manning couldn't garner his team more than 16 pts, let alone try to mount a come from behind 21 pt turnaround.

Brees - lost in the WC round. To Seattle. 'Nuff said.

[Ravenslifer]

[quote name='PITCH52BLACK' timestamp='1303072873' post='666436']
see..that's just it! i haven't defined Flacco. to me....his gameplay for the past 3 years have done that for him! and....if it came down to my choice of a QB (not team...a QB) to lead us back from a 21 point deficit and i had a choice between Manning, Brady, Brees and Flacco. well...my choice wouldn't be Flacco. but that's just me!



i am not a Flacco basher either but if i was....that would be okay cause that would be my viewpoint about his gameplay. and nowhere in my post Ed did i mention the word "fact." my opinion (as yours and others here) is just that...it's my opinion! therefore it needs no validation from others here! we all see things differently and our viewpoints are different. with that being said...to me....Flacco is a decent QB but has a lot to clean up in his gameplay before he ascends to the next level at the QB spot.

~Mili
[/quote]



So, let me get this straight. You pick maybe the three top quarterbacks in the league, three guys who have each been in the league at least 10 years, guys with 5 rings in 7 appearances between them, and say you'd rather have them than your current starting qb. Well, I'm pretty sure fans of 27 (GB and San Diego) other teams in the NFL would agree with you.

[wayne]

[quote name='Ravenslifer' timestamp='1303076402' post='666462']
So, let me get this straight. You pick maybe the three top quarterbacks in the league, three guys who have each been in the league at least 10 years, guys with 5 rings in 7 appearances between them, and say you'd rather have them than your current starting qb. Well, I'm pretty sure fans of 27 (GB and San Diego) other teams in the NFL would agree with you.
[/quote]
Yea, very unfair comparisons, the best QBs in the league.

[ravensdfan]

[quote name='wayne' timestamp='1303077941' post='666475']
Yea, very unfair comparisons, the best QBs in the league.
[/quote]

That is the point though. All the Flacco bashers always say "...he's not *insert name of Top 5 QB here* ". Then...use that as saying he is not elite. If you need to compare him to the league's top QBs with years of experience to make him look bad, well, he might not be elite yet but I'd say he's sure on his way.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='PITCH52BLACK' timestamp='1303072873' post='666436']
i am not a Flacco basher either but if i was....that would be okay cause that would be my viewpoint about his gameplay. [b]and nowhere in my post Ed did i mention the word "fact."[/b] my opinion (as yours and others here) is just that...it's my opinion! therefore it needs no validation from others here! we all see things differently and our viewpoints are different. with that being said...to me....Flacco is a decent QB but has a lot to clean up in his gameplay before he ascends to the next level at the QB spot.

~Mili
[/quote]

[quote name='PITCH52BLACK' timestamp='1302965483' post='666000']
[b]sooner or later cats in here are gonna have to own up to the [size="3"]fact[/size] that Flacco is a good QB and a decent one at best![/b] and pretending or "attempting" to make him an elite QB by mentioning his playoff wins or bringing up the few games where he may have looked impressive are actually futile!

~Mili
[/quote]

[Militant X 1]

i stand to be corrected Ed. i have no problem with that though cause i am a big boy! lol!

however, let's not play semantics here. the context of my usage of the word [b]"fact"[/b] was inreference to Flacco being a [b]"good"[/b] QB. i don't think that many here would disagree with that statement. however to me, Flacco is not an [b]"elite" [/b]QB.

~Mili

[Militant X 1]

[quote name='ravensdfan' timestamp='1303075776' post='666456']
I cannot believe that this post was awakened from the dead yet again but...I did get a laugh out of your comment above.

Brady - his team lost when he failed to put together that comeback drive. They only needed 7 to tie, not 21.

Manning - lost in the WC round in which Manning couldn't garner his team more than 16 pts, let alone try to mount a come from behind 21 pt turnaround.

Brees - lost in the WC round. To Seattle. 'Nuff said.
[/quote]

i'll keep my response simple. Flacco isn't a elite QB to me!


[quote name='Ravenslifer' timestamp='1303076402' post='666462']
[b]So, let me get this straight. You pick maybe the three top quarterbacks in the league[/b], three guys who have each been in the league at least 10 years, guys with 5 rings in 7 appearances between them, [b]and say you'd rather have them than your current starting qb.[/b] Well, I'm pretty sure fans of 27 (GB and San Diego) other teams in the NFL would agree with you.
[/quote]

what i said can't get any straighter!

~Mili

[pittman2052]

Flacco in my book is elite. Look at his win to loss ratio, his playoff appearances and wins, how he has gotten more yardage and more touchdowns each year while cutting down on his int's. He has led this team to the playoffs three years in a row. How many other qb's have been able to do that? Joe is elite.

[3-4ravdef509]

[quote name='pittman2052' timestamp='1303170931' post='666860']
Flacco in my book is elite. Look at his win to loss ratio, his playoff appearances and wins, how he has gotten more yardage and more touchdowns each year while cutting down on his int's. He has led this team to the playoffs three years in a row. How many other qb's have been able to do that? Joe is elite.
[/quote]

That's not proof he's elite, but rather that's he's steadily improving and growing into his role as a franchise qb. And definitely I would say he's on his way to being elite. Week 1 vs. Steelers will be a defining moment in his career though.

[hawkprey]

Joe had a great year with a garbage O-line, no playmaking wideouts, no running game, and a poor offensive coordinator. Name one other QB who had the same disadvantages and came even close.

End of Flacco hater's argument.

[3-4ravdef509]

[quote name='hawkprey' timestamp='1303356648' post='668059']
Joe had a great year with a garbage O-line, no playmaking wideouts, no running game, and a poor offensive coordinator. Name one other QB who had the same disadvantages and came even close.

End of Flacco hater's argument.
[/quote]

Bradford played with piss poor everything and still played good. But I understand your arguement. Flacco did very well in the area of ball possession, with everything around him working not to his favor. It's hard not to force passes in when you're under a lot of pressure and there aren't many short routes for him to check down to.

[vjecmenic]

[quote name='3-4ravdef509' timestamp='1303355960' post='668052']
That's not proof he's elite, but rather that's he's steadily improving and growing into his role as a franchise qb. And definitely I would say he's on his way to being elite.[/quote]

I think that this is also a Ravens coaching staff opinion. That is a main reason why they postponed contract negotiation. Flacco is moving in a direction to BECOME one but right now he is not an elite qb.
There is abundance of guys who had talent and showed promises...

[Ravenslifer]

[quote name='3-4ravdef509' timestamp='1303386849' post='668157']
Bradford played with piss poor everything and still played good. But I understand your arguement. Flacco did very well in the area of ball possession, with everything around him working not to his favor. It's hard not to force passes in when you're under a lot of pressure and there aren't many short routes for him to check down to.
[/quote]

The Rams had the second easiest schedule in the NFL last season. Their opponents' 2009 combined W/L record was .449 . That's why they made the playoffs. And Bradford had 18 TDs and 15 INTs for a qb rating of 76.5, hardly setting the world on fire. You also have to remember that Flacco will have to play the Steelers twice a year for the rest of his career. The Ram's first five games last year were against Arizona, Oakland, Washington, Seattle, and Detroit. They also had the opportunity to play San Francisco and Kansas City. In fact, had the Ravens' played the Rams' schedule, with Atlanta on the road in Baltimore, I think we had a legitimate shot to go 16-0. The only two good teams the Rams played at all last year were Atlanta and New Orleans. They lost to Atlanta 34-17, lost to New Orleans 31-13, and lost to Kansas City 27-13. We lost to Atlanta 26-21 in the final 2 minutes, beat New Orleans 30-24, and smashed Kansas City 30-7 in the WC round.

[Militant X 1]

[quote name='vjecmenic' timestamp='1303388348' post='668160']
I think that this is also a Ravens coaching staff opinion. That is a main reason why they postponed contract negotiation. [b]Flacco is moving in a direction to BECOME one but right now he is not an elite qb. [/b]There is abundance of guys who had talent and showed promises...
[/quote]

agreed! however, this is a hard pill for most cats here to swallow.

~Mili

[3-4ravdef509]

[quote name='Ravenslifer' timestamp='1303389407' post='668163']
The Rams had the second easiest schedule in the NFL last season. Their opponents' 2009 combined W/L record was .449 . That's why they made the playoffs. And Bradford had 18 TDs and 15 INTs for a qb rating of 76.5, hardly setting the world on fire. You also have to remember that Flacco will have to play the Steelers twice a year for the rest of his career. The Ram's first five games last year were against Arizona, Oakland, Washington, Seattle, and Detroit. They also had the opportunity to play San Francisco and Kansas City. In fact, had the Ravens' played the Rams' schedule, with Atlanta on the road in Baltimore, I think we had a legitimate shot to go 16-0. The only two good teams the Rams played at all last year were Atlanta and New Orleans. They lost to Atlanta 34-17, lost to New Orleans 31-13, and lost to Kansas City 27-13. We lost to Atlanta 26-21 in the final 2 minutes, beat New Orleans 30-24, and smashed Kansas City 30-7 in the WC round.
[/quote]

Jeez man. It wasn't even the point of my post and you went off on a huge tangent lol. I was just trying to think of another qb who played with a lot of handicaps. Rivers also fits in there a little bit. But it was pointless chatter. I agreed with his statement, I was just trying to think of a qb who did close to what Joe did. Bradford played bad teams, but was also on a bad team. So it kinda equals out. He wasn't spectacular, but he's a rookie. Rivers is probably a better example, with injuries plaging his team all season. But he didn't make post-season.

[3-4ravdef509]

[quote name='Militant X 1' timestamp='1303390464' post='668167']
agreed! however, this is a hard pill for most cats here to swallow.

~Mili
[/quote]

I have yet to see a "Cat" on this forum. Just saying.

[hawkprey]

[quote name='3-4ravdef509' timestamp='1303392708' post='668179']
Jeez man. It wasn't even the point of my post and you went off on a huge tangent lol. I was just trying to think of another qb who played with a lot of handicaps. Rivers also fits in there a little bit. But it was pointless chatter. I agreed with his statement, I was just trying to think of a qb who did close to what Joe did. Bradford played bad teams, but was also on a bad team. So it kinda equals out. He wasn't spectacular, but he's a rookie. Rivers is probably a better example, with injuries plaging his team all season. But he didn't make post-season.
[/quote]

No, Ravenslifer had it right. Because my post said "No other QB had the same disadvantages [b]and came even close[/b]. Sam Bradford did not come close. Rivers was on another team with an easy schedule, and he also had the number one defense.

[3-4ravdef509]

[quote name='hawkprey' timestamp='1303404803' post='668231']
No, Ravenslifer had it right. Because my post said "No other QB had the same disadvantages [b]and came even close[/b]. Sam Bradford did not come close. Rivers was on another team with an easy schedule, and he also had the number one defense.
[/quote]

And once again, I agreed with your post. I was simply trying to list the quarterbacks who came closest, but admitted they didn't do as well. I don't recall saying I had any problems with your post, or trying to use Bradford and Rivers as arguements. They were the closest to what you were describing. It was just a little bit of musing to go with my post. I didn't even say Rivers was valid because he didn't get his team into the post-season. and I said Bradford played good mainly because he's a rookie on a bad team. So sorry for the confusion. Wasn't trying to start a debate.

[hawkprey]

[quote name='3-4ravdef509' timestamp='1303408897' post='668267']
And once again, I agreed with your post. I was simply trying to list the quarterbacks who came closest, but admitted they didn't do as well. I don't recall saying I had any problems with your post, or trying to use Bradford and Rivers as arguements. They were the closest to what you were describing. It was just a little bit of musing to go with my post. I didn't even say Rivers was valid because he didn't get his team into the post-season. and I said Bradford played good mainly because he's a rookie on a bad team. So sorry for the confusion. Wasn't trying to start a debate.
[/quote]

I guess it's because I said "name one quarterback" and you did just that with Bradford. I get it now though. It's cool.

[3-4ravdef509]

[quote name='hawkprey' timestamp='1303409210' post='668270']
I guess it's because I said "name one quarterback" and you did just that with Bradford. I get it now though. It's cool.
[/quote]

Ahh. I guess I can see where the confusion came from. That makes sense.
But no, no one did close to what Flacco did with his level of success. You brought up an important point. People don't think what he did was spectacular because of all our big name receivers. Their big names didn't get them open that often though.