Merged: Flacco Is Not An Elite Qb

[Florida Ravens Fan]

[quote name='noy' timestamp='1291615788' post='562657']
I'm confused. Why are we comparing him to Peyton when Peyton is a proven elite QB in the league because of his history. Joe hasn't done anything to wow the fans or make defenses truly fear him. He also doesn't carry the offense on his shoulders either. No matter how Peyton performs, he is [i]still [/i]a much better QB than Flacco.
[/quote]

No one is comparing them, just stating that even "elite" qb's have bad games...

No one will deny Manning is an elite and on a totally different lvl then flacco..

[versace2127]

Ravens need to go back to the fundamentals. Like lining up. And tackling. Catching passes. I mean those little mess ups hurt the ravens everytime.
They go one step forward and two backwards every damn play. Come on ravens. Overall it was a sad game to lose and I had to go outside to get my composure after that last play. But the two teams played great and the best won.

[Ravenseconbeast]

Cam Cameron : lay like a lame duck guys, we blow it away every time! Ah..let's make a time out, just when we get something going!, let's give steelers a breather and have them get back their feet, so my crappy play calling can be of some use!

[berad]

[quote name='noy' timestamp='1291615788' post='562657']
I'm confused. Why are we comparing him to Peyton when Peyton is a proven elite QB in the league because of his history. Joe hasn't done anything to wow the fans or make defenses truly fear him. He also doesn't carry the offense on his shoulders either. No matter how Peyton performs, he is [i]still [/i]a much better QB than Flacco.
[/quote]

The running game has been non-existent / flaky this year. Joe Flacco has been the offense.

[Guest RBates]

look Flacco did not throw a pick tonight but that fumble cost us the game. So why you sit there making excuses just note that any Qb in this league would have seen Polamalu at the line of scrimmage and of at least called a timeout to get another play. That was horrible. Again harbs not knowing any aspect of the game is hurting our chances of winning. Say what you want i saw that ish from my couch. Im not saying that i could coach the team what i am saying and apparently T-suggs is saying is that was obvious. You lose the game on that one play. Good luck the rest of the season because if you don't fix this i need to see some changes point blank period.

[canfan]

[quote name='noy' timestamp='1291615788' post='562657']
I'm confused. Why are we comparing him to Peyton when Peyton is a proven elite QB in the league because of his history. Joe hasn't done anything to wow the fans or make defenses truly fear him. He also doesn't carry the offense on his shoulders either. No matter how Peyton performs, he is [i]still [/i]a much better QB than Flacco.
[/quote]

I will admit that Manning is a better QB but I feel that Joe will grow and develope. My point merely is to say not to throw Joe under the bus so quickly. Manning is one of the greats and had a worse day today but I dont think you'll see fans bus chucking Manning, I dont think Flacco deserve the weight of the negativity thats all.

[Ravenite]

“I took three steps and raised my arm and just got it,” said Flacco, who was 17-for-33 for 266 yards passing. “I was pretty shocked to see it myself.”

Apparently Flacco must've thought the protection was set and that Oher would've picked up Troy but Oher went inside to help Grubbs who was getting help from Birk.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='RBates' timestamp='1291616104' post='562672']
look Flacco did not throw a pick tonight but that fumble cost us the game. So why you sit there making excuses just note that any Qb in this league would have seen Polamalu at the line of scrimmage and of at least called a timeout to get another play. That was horrible. [b]Again harbs not knowing any aspect of the game is hurting our chances of winning[/b]. Say what you want i saw that ish from my couch. Im not saying that i could coach the team what i am saying and apparently T-suggs is saying is that was obvious. You lose the game on that one play. Good luck the rest of the season because if you don't fix this i need to see some changes point blank period.
[/quote]

Enlighten me. How is Harbaugh a head coach if he doesn't know "any aspect of the game"?

[noy]

[quote name='berad' timestamp='1291616068' post='562669']
The running game has been non-existent / flaky this year. Joe Flacco has been the offense.
[/quote]

Er, I'm sorry. Does he not have a star studded cast as his #1, #2, #3 and even #4 receiving options?

And Rice has only gone under 50 yards [i]three [/i]times this season. Surprise surprise, against the Steelers both times, and the Jets. Considering he shares the opportunities with McGahee, that is far from "flaky". Maybe the running game has kept defenses honest enough for Flacco to have this perception you knight him with? He hasn't been doing what Manning has been doing, having to deal with injuries all around him in [i]skill [/i]positions. So I reiterate, he has not been carrying this team.

EDIT: NYJ was another under 50 game, but that's also not surprising.

[D-Rey]

[quote name='RBates' timestamp='1291616104' post='562672']
look Flacco did not throw a pick tonight but that fumble cost us the game. So why you sit there making excuses just note that any Qb in this league would have seen Polamalu at the line of scrimmage and of at least called a timeout to get another play. That was horrible. Again harbs not knowing any aspect of the game is hurting our chances of winning. Say what you want i saw that ish from my couch. Im not saying that i could coach the team what i am saying and apparently T-suggs is saying is that was obvious. You lose the game on that one play. Good luck the rest of the season because if you don't fix this i need to see some changes point blank period.
[/quote]
Lol Harbs doesn't know any aspect of the game, good joke.

[D-Rey]

[quote name='noy' timestamp='1291616440' post='562693']
Er, I'm sorry. Does he not have a star studded cast as his #1, #2, #3 and even #4 receiving options?

And Rice has only gone under 50 yards [i]three [/i]times this season. Surprise surprise, against the Steelers both times, and the Jets. Considering he shares the opportunities with McGahee, that is far from "flaky". Maybe the running game has kept defenses honest enough for Flacco to have this perception you knight him with? He hasn't been doing what Manning has been doing, having to deal with injuries all around him in [i]skill [/i]positions. So I reiterate, he has not been carrying this team.

EDIT: NYJ was another under 50 game, but that's also not surprising.
[/quote]
Um I wouldn't say star studded. Boldin is great and Mason is really good. Housh is decent and Stalls hasn't been that big of a factor. That's just my opinion though.

Most QBs are going to struggle without a consistant running game.

[berad]

[quote name='noy' timestamp='1291616440' post='562693']
Er, I'm sorry. Does he not have a star studded cast as his #1, #2, #3 and even #4 receiving options?

And Rice has only gone under 50 yards [i]three [/i]times this season. Surprise surprise, against the Steelers both times, and the Jets. Considering he shares the opportunities with McGahee, that is far from "flaky". Maybe the running game has kept defenses honest enough for Flacco to have this perception you knight him with? He hasn't been doing what Manning has been doing, having to deal with injuries all around him in [i]skill [/i]positions. So I reiterate, he has not been carrying this team.

EDIT: NYJ was another under 50 game, but that's also not surprising.
[/quote]

Joe's been outstanding this year. His receiving core may be top-notch but how is that a knock on him? He's producing with them. He's on pace to finish with ~4000 yards and 25 TDs with a 90+ rating. I'm not "knighting" Joe Flacco with anything but he has been, for all intents and purposes the offense this year. You fail to mention that we've won two out of three of those games, too..

And <50 yards is terrible for a running back. Ray Rice and, by extension, our running game have not been nearly as productive or dominant this season. Expand that to <4.0 ypc performances for Rice and he's had six such games. Again, they've been inconsistent. Chalk that up a shuffled OL and poor play by the interior linemen, namely Chris Chester.

[Jamal]

I like Flacco, and disagree with the title, but it makes me laugh when people bring up Manning. Hes one of the best QB's of all time. They shouldn't be mentioned in the same sentence...

[noy]

[quote name='berad' timestamp='1291617148' post='562733']
Joe's been outstanding this year. His receiving core may be top-notch but how is that a knock on him? He's producing with them. He's on pace to finish with ~4000 yards and 25 TDs with a 90+ rating. I'm not "knighting" Joe Flacco with anything but he has been, for all intents and purposes the offense this year. You fail to mention that we've won two out of three of those games, too..

And <50 yards is terrible for a running back. Ray Rice and, by extension, our running game have not been nearly as productive or dominant this season. Expand that to <4.0 ypc performances for Rice and he's had six such games. Again, they've been inconsistent. Chalk that up a shuffled OL and poor play by the interior linemen, namely Chris Chester.
[/quote]

I'm not saying he hasn't played well, especially in those games, but you cannot say he has been the offense, you just cant. He delivers the ball to an extremely talented receiving core who know the ins and outs of the game. If he did it with a lesser receiving core, I'd agree, but the receivers have been bailing him out with their experience and fantastic route running.

It's one thing to have excellent placement of the ball to an average receiver, but it's another to have an experienced core of receivers go up for sailing balls or have to make diving catches when they are wide open, which I have seen plenty of times this season. Not to mention completely missing open receivers, whether it's in the flat (as this game thoroughly proved) or if it's a 10-15 yard throw. What Flacco does seem to be king of is the deep ball, but that's only one aspect of the QBs game. I'm not basing my decision ons stats, only on what kind of throws I see him make in game.

Again, not saying he doesn't make some really sweet throws, but I see the receiver having to adjust to his throws more often than not, which shows me they are doing a lot of the work to get the statistics.

[True]

[quote name='Jamal' timestamp='1291617208' post='562736']
I like Flacco, and disagree with the title, but it makes me laugh when people bring up Manning. Hes one of the best QB's of all time. They shouldn't be mentioned in the same sentence...
[/quote]
Yeah the Manning comparisons are odd. They're in completely different leagues and as much as I like Flacco, he's not 1/10 the level of Manning (yet).

I'd compare him more to Micheal Vick. Not in their playing style but rather how they're flourishing in their respective offenses. When Vick was in ATL the coaches instilled in him to look at his first option and then run if it wasn't open since he didn't have a ton of talent to work with. Now that he is in Andy Reid's system, he completely revamped his game and using the talent around him to make big plays. The offense is so explosive because they have a ton of playmakers at WR, RB, and TE and he's working every week to get better. Now he is playing at top 5 QB level and is in the discussion of being league MVP this season after missing the last two years.

Flacco is exactly the same. He had a couple of weapons in his first couple years alongside a good run game + defense and had good success in the regular season and playoffs. Now he has more than enough talent at the WR position that he needed to take the next level, but due to the scheme he is in he can only excel as far as the coaches allow him. He isn't taking that next step of being in charge of the offense and making all the plays from an elite QB you'd expect. How many elite QBs in the league can you say are discouraged from audibling? That's ridiculous. With all the talent surrounding this offense, Flacco should help them put up more points than they have been last year without any of the new improvements. He can't be elite until the cuffs are taken off.

[berad]

[quote name='noy' timestamp='1291618193' post='562772']
I'm not saying he hasn't played well, especially in those games, but you cannot say he has been the offense, you just cant. He delivers the ball to an extremely talented receiving core who know the ins and outs of the game. If he did it with a lesser receiving core, I'd agree, but the receivers have been bailing him out with their experience and fantastic route running.

It's one thing to have excellent placement of the ball to an average receiver, but it's another to have an experienced core of receivers go up for sailing balls or have to make diving catches when they are wide open, which I have seen plenty of times this season. Not to mention completely missing open receivers, whether it's in the flat (as this game thoroughly proved) or if it's a 10-15 yard throw. What Flacco does seem to be king of is the deep ball, but that's only one aspect of the QBs game. I'm not basing my decision ons stats, only on what kind of throws I see him make in game.

Again, not saying he doesn't make some really sweet throws, but I see the receiver having to adjust to his throws more often than not, which shows me they are doing a lot of the work to get the statistics.
[/quote]

I'll agree with most of that. For some of the throws that receivers have to adjust to, he makes more that hit the players in stride or where only they can catch it. He's also been playing mostly-mistake-free football, something you can't really attribute to his receivers. Can I say Flacco has been the vast majority of the offense?

[Guest RBates]

[quote name='True' timestamp='1291618289' post='562775']
Yeah the Manning comparisons are odd. They're in completely different leagues and as much as I like Flacco, he's not 1/10 the level of Manning (yet).

I'd compare him more to Micheal Vick. Not in their playing style but rather how they're flourishing in their respective offenses. When Vick was in ATL the coaches instilled in him to look at his first option and then run if it wasn't open since he didn't have a ton of talent to work with. Now that he is in Andy Reid's system, he completely revamped his game and using the talent around him to make big plays. The offense is so explosive because they have a ton of playmakers at WR, RB, and TE and he's working every week to get better. Now he is playing at top 5 QB level and is in the discussion of being league MVP this season after missing the last two years.

Flacco is exactly the same. He had a couple of weapons in his first couple years alongside a good run game + defense and had good success in the regular season and playoffs. Now he has more than enough talent at the WR position that he needed to take the next level, but due to the scheme he is in he can only excel as far as the coaches allow him. He isn't taking that next step of being in charge of the offense and making all the plays from an elite QB you'd expect. How many elite QBs in the league can you say are discouraged from audibling? That's ridiculous. With all the talent surrounding this offense, Flacco should help them put up more points than they have been last year without any of the new improvements. He can't be elite until the cuffs are taken off.
[/quote]
BOOOO horrible comparison. Mike vick is way better than Flacco and Manning this year are you kidding me. You are trying to compare Flacco to a guy that has revolutionized the Qb position. Wow. You must not watch sports at all. Now i wonder what would happen if Vick got all the calls Manning got would he have won a super bowl already. You do know that Suggs blew the long over due whistle on he and Tom Brady already this year. I just been saying it for years now. Its hard to see how good those two are when they get cheated for in almost every game.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='RBates' timestamp='1291618776' post='562797']
BOOOO horrible comparison. Mike vick is way better than Flacco and Manning this year are you kidding me. [b]You are trying to compare Flacco to a guy that has revolutionized the Qb position[/b]. Wow. You must not watch sports at all. Now i wonder what would happen if Vick got all the calls Manning got would he have won a super bowl already. You do know that Suggs blew the long over due whistle on he and Tom Brady already this year. I just been saying it for years now. Its hard to see how good those two are when they get cheated for in almost every game.
[/quote]

Vick hasn't revolutionized anything. He had a phenomenal performance against a soft Redskins D and has had a good season but he's no pioneer.

[True]

[quote name='RBates' timestamp='1291618776' post='562797']
BOOOO horrible comparison. Mike vick is way better than Flacco and Manning this year are you kidding me. You are trying to compare Flacco to a guy that has revolutionized the Qb position. Wow. You must not watch sports at all. Now i wonder what would happen if Vick got all the calls Manning got would he have won a super bowl already. You do know that Suggs blew the long over due whistle on he and Tom Brady already this year. I just been saying it for years now. Its hard to see how good those two are when they get cheated for in almost every game.
[/quote]

Did you not read my second sentence? I said "Not in their [b]playing style[/b] but rather how they're flourishing in their [b]respective offenses[/b]."

[Alexir]

I've never though Joe was elite. Was his offensive line struggling? Absolutely! Was cam Cameron calling a bad game? YES! However, Joe Flacco didn't shine at all. He proved why Matt Ryan was a higher pick. He proved his doubters why they have doubts. He played a bad game of football.

Refs were neutral. We lost the game because of Cam and Joe. Period.

[berad]

[quote name='RBates' timestamp='1291618776' post='562797']
BOOOO horrible comparison. Mike vick is way better than Flacco and Manning this year are you kidding me. You are trying to compare Flacco to a guy that has revolutionized the Qb position. Wow. You must not watch sports at all. Now i wonder what would happen if Vick got all the calls Manning got would he have won a super bowl already. You do know that Suggs blew the long over due whistle on he and Tom Brady already this year. I just been saying it for years now. Its hard to see how good those two are when they get cheated for in almost every game.
[/quote]

Michael Vick has "revolutionized the QB position"? C'mon, now. A string of eight, or so, impressive games is nice and all but "revolutionized"? That's a stretch.

And I'm not even a Vick-hater, he's won me more fantasy games than I can count.

BTW, how many "calls" does Manning have, anyways?

[noy]

[quote name='berad' timestamp='1291618511' post='562788']
I'll agree with most of that. For some of the throws that receivers have to adjust to, he makes more that hit the players in stride or where only they can catch it. He's also been playing mostly-mistake-free football, something you can't really attribute to his receivers. Can I say Flacco has been the vast majority of the offense?
[/quote]

[b]NO![/b] I WIN THE ARGUMENT! Where's my cookie?

But honestly, I'll give you half

Ah...it feels good to have a laugh after such a disappointing night...such...a...disappointing...I'm all sad again

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='Alexir' timestamp='1291618907' post='562805']
I've never though Joe was elite. Was his offensive line struggling? Absolutely! Was cam Cameron calling a bad game? YES! [b]However, Joe Flacco didn't shine at all. He proved why Matt Ryan was a higher pick. He proved his doubters why they have doubts. He played a bad game of football.

Refs were neutral. We lost the game because of Cam and Joe. Period.[/b]
[/quote]

He didn't shine at all? Really?

Ryan was a higher pick for numerous reason, one of which was playing against tougher competition and being more polished.

He made mistakes but I wouldn't say he played "a bad game of football".

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='MickeyD' timestamp='1291619166' post='562820']
As a Ravens fanatic I'm tired of making excuses for Flacco. He holds the ball to long and can't handle pressure. I'm just holding my breath hoping he doesn't get crunch badly standing in the pocket. It's only a matter of time before someone nails him. He is clearly better than Boller but we will never win a Superbowl with Joe Flacco.
[/quote]

Again, why are you quoting me?

I saw Joe handle pressure quite a bit tonight. And he's taken big hits numerous times since he's been the QB for this team and continues to play so I have no idea what you're talking about.

Also, you have no idea whether this team will win a SB with Joe as the QB so just stop.

[berad]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' timestamp='1291619339' post='562831']
Again, why are you quoting me?

I saw Joe handle pressure quite a bit tonight. And he's taken big hits numerous times since he's been the QB for this team and continues to play so I have no idea what you're talking about.

Also, you have no idea whether this team will win a SB with Joe as the QB so just stop.
[/quote]

It's steeldude, man, he's gone (again). Trolling must be his specialty.

[berad]

[quote name='noy' timestamp='1291619183' post='562822']
[b]NO![/b] I WIN THE ARGUMENT! Where's my cookie?

But honestly, I'll give you half

Ah...it feels good to have a laugh after such a disappointing night...such...a...disappointing...I'm all sad again
[/quote]

Haha yeah, I know what you mean. Life moves on, I guess, just don't let the media catch you smiling on the way to work tomorrow. #Derek Anderson

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='berad' timestamp='1291619463' post='562837']
It's steeldude, man, he's gone (again). Trolling must be his specialty.
[/quote]

You're probably right.

[Alexir]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' timestamp='1291619192' post='562823']
He didn't shine at all? Really?

Ryan was a higher pick for numerous reason, one of which was playing against tougher competition and being more polished.

He made mistakes but I wouldn't say he played "a bad game of football".
[/quote]

Well, that is your opinion but I would have to disagree. He looked like a frightened puppy. He coughed up the ball at a crucial time and Marched back later to just throw a ball into the ground on 4th and 2.....

[berad]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' timestamp='1291619525' post='562840']
You're probably right.
[/quote]

Same IP address confirmed it. Aren't there Steelers' boards?

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='Alexir' timestamp='1291619555' post='562841']
Well, that is your opinion but I would have to disagree. He looked like a frightened puppy. He coughed up the ball at a crucial time and Marched back later to just throw a ball into the ground on 4th and 2.....
[/quote]

He didn't look like a "frightened puppy" to me when he threw long bombs to Q and Stallworth on the TD to Q or even when he avoided a sack and attempted a dump-off to Rice in the red-zone at one point in the game.