Andre Johnson And Cortland Finnegan Get Ejected

[berad]

Frank Walker was chippy and feisty, too. Doesn't make him a good cornerback if he's getting thrown out of games and attracting yellow flags.

[Jabara]

It seems like punching players and fighting is ok in the NFL.
Seymour gets fined $25k for punching Big Ben, and these two get fined $25k for fighting, yet if you hit someone with your helmet, you get fined more...

What is the reasoning behind that???

If someone were to punch Flacco, I'd be offended by just a $25k fine.

[theFRANCHISE]

[quote name='Jabara' timestamp='1291076019' post='554486']
It seems like punching players and fighting is ok in the NFL.
Seymour gets fined $25k for punching Big Ben, and these two get fined $25k for fighting, yet if you hit someone with your helmet, you get fined more...

What is the reasoning behind that???

If someone were to punch Flacco, I'd be offended by just a $25k fine.
[/quote]
Hitting someone with your helmet constitutes using a non-lethal weapon in the league. The fines for fighting make sense in that they are usually heat-of-the-moment reactions and not the result of any true malice. Although, in the case of Andre Johnson, he might actually have had some legitimate beef with Cortland Finnegan, and I can't blame Johnson at all.

Also, the context of the situation would probably come into play. If someone, say, sucker-punched Flacco and pounded on him excessively until it got to the point where he's knocked out of the game for whatever reason, I can see where a fine would be larger. Or, if blows were to strike some officials trying to break up the fight, I can also see where the fine would be larger.

[Jabara]

[quote name='theFRANCHISE' timestamp='1291076228' post='554491']
Hitting someone with your helmet constitutes using a non-lethal weapon in the league. The fines for fighting make sense in that they are usually heat-of-the-moment reactions and not the result of any true malice. Although, in the case of Andre Johnson, he might actually have had some legitimate beef with Cortland Finnegan, and I can't blame Johnson at all.

Also, the context of the situation would probably come into play. If someone, say, sucker-punched Flacco and pounded on him excessively until it got to the point where he's knocked out of the game for whatever reason, I can see where a fine would be larger. Or, if blows were to strike some officials trying to break up the fight, I can also see where the fine would be larger.
[/quote]
I understand that, but a helmet to helmet hit is during a game, and typically involved in the speed of the game.
However, taking the time to punch someone, even when the play is over is not something that belongs in the NFL.
Some helmet to helmet hits are controversial, yet fighting is always one sided.
A fist or an elbow can be just as devastating as a helmet.

We can go on and on about the intent of a fight on the field, and whether it's justified or not, even though one could argue that it is never justified, but it still doesn't mean it should be brushed aside with a small fine.

And to suggest during a play, a hit, sometimes controversial in technique, can bring about a bigger fine is beyond reasoning, versus actual fighting.
If a helmet to helmet hit is viewed with intent to injure, how can fighting, and literally punching someone, be viewed as any less?

[Purple Punishment]

He definitely looks like this guy

[img]http://hollywoodhatesme.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/sideshow-bob.jpg[/img]

[AwakenTheDemon]

Good thing Bart Scott plays defense as well, or else we may have seen the Titan's Sideshow Bob go after ol' Bart.

[noy]

[quote name='Jabara' timestamp='1291076820' post='554507']
A fist or an elbow can be just as devastating as a helmet.
[/quote]

If we think about the physics of the impact of a helmet vs a fist, I don't believe they are close (and I don't claim to be an expert at physics). A helmet to helmet collision involves momentum traveling through the whole body, not just the head, and has more body mechanisms involved than a punch.

From my perspective, it starts with a player running at another player (creating speed), lowering his head into a much more stable position (the impact is absorbed by the spine and helmet). Now we have to account for the extension of the legs during a tackle, which would allow for the momentum contributed by the players speed to pass through the body towards the point of impact (the players helmet). If the point of impact of the player being tackled is [i]also [/i]the helmet, that is a ton of force to be absorbed by a piece of equipment, and you also have to add to the fact that the players head is [i]not [/i]in a stable position, like the tacklers.

A punch depends more on the strength of the person as opposed to the speed of the punch. And the strength of a punch is driven by the power of the biceps, triceps, shoulder and chest. Now compare that with a tackle, which can be compared to the squat exercise. Do you think a player can bicep curl, tricep curl, shoulder press or bench press a higher weight than they can squat? I don't think so. You know why? Because during a squat you're using the largest muscle in the body, the gluteus maximus, in combination with the muscles in the legs.

With all that, I think helmet to helmet surpasses the power of a punch substantially. If a punch were really that dangerous, then why would MMA not have a KO every fight? A punch has to be placed in a couple of areas [i]exactly [/i]in order to even daze the opponent, while an illegal helmet to helmet collision would KO/daze the player every time (why don't we get some players to demonstrate?.... *crickets*).

That's my opinion anyway, and probably why helmet to helmet is a much more violent action.

[K-Dog]

[quote name='XxSizzleXx' timestamp='1291074712' post='554442']
I know if we had him he would most likely be a fan favourite. if he was a Raven he would be praised.
[/quote]


Not me. Not even a little bit.

He becomes a Raven I become a fan of another team.

[flynismo]

[quote name='XxSizzleXx' timestamp='1291074712' post='554442']<br />I'm not denying he's dirty but for how much hate this guy is getting I don't think it is deserved. I know if we had him he would most likely be a fan favourite. He plays far nastier than anyone in our secondary and frankly I love when a DB plays like that, Webb isn't even close to how chippy this guy is. Dirty, trash whatever you want to call it he is still far better than anyone in our CB group IMO and if he was a Raven he would be praised.<br />[/quote]


he's trash, and in no way would I ever praise or support him.
And I'll take a healthy Foxworth over him any day of the week.

And honestly, I dont think he gets enough hate

[flynismo]

[quote name='K-Dog' timestamp='1291082540' post='554628']<br />Not me. Not even a little bit.<br /><br />He becomes a Raven I become a fan of another team.<br />[/quote]


i wouldn't blame you.

[XxSizzleXx]

You guys are like a church choir

[XxSizzleXx]

He plays dirty, when does it give the player the right to start dropping bombs?

Labeling him dirty also doesn't change the fact that he is one of the better CB's in the league and is a pro bowl caliber guy.

If you guys saw some of the things that happen in hockey some of you's would probably be calling for their heads.

[AwakenTheDemon]

[quote name='XxSizzleXx' timestamp='1291085394' post='554715']
He plays dirty, when does it give the player the right to start dropping bombs?

Labeling him dirty also doesn't change the fact that he is one of the better CB's in the league and is a pro bowl caliber guy.

[b]If you guys saw some of the things that happen in hockey some of you's would probably be calling for their heads.[/b]
[/quote]

Two completely different sports, two completely different rule sets (unwritten and written). I do not care how good he is, jamming your hands into a opponents facemask and neck area is [i]disgusting[/i] and no amount of interceptions can change that. Nor can they change the fact that he's thrown Steve Smith (Giants) to the ground by his helmet and hit a Denver Bronco after he had taken his helmet off. Maybe you can overlook his atrocious behavior and attitude, but I will not and cannot.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='XxSizzleXx' timestamp='1291085394' post='554715']
He plays dirty, when does it give the player the right to start dropping bombs?

Labeling him dirty also doesn't change the fact that he is one of the better CB's in the league and is a pro bowl caliber guy.

If you guys saw some of the things that happen in hockey some of you's would probably be calling for their heads.
[/quote]

Finnegan's dirty play doesn't give any player the right to start throwing haymakers but why do you think the universal reaction to Sunday's fight/beatdown has been quite(some not so quite) appreciation for what Andre did? To most people, Finnegan got what he deserved.

No one has put down his abilities as a player. Keyshawn Johnson brought up a good point on Monday Night Countdown that Finnegan's dirty play is unfortunate because he's worked very hard to become a good player.

Hockey is a different sport. There is no place for some of Finnegan post-play actions.

[Jabara]

[quote name='noy' timestamp='1291078905' post='554553']
If we think about the physics of the impact of a helmet vs a fist, I don't believe they are close (and I don't claim to be an expert at physics). A helmet to helmet collision involves momentum traveling through the whole body, not just the head, and has more body mechanisms involved than a punch.

From my perspective, it starts with a player running at another player (creating speed), lowering his head into a much more stable position (the impact is absorbed by the spine and helmet). Now we have to account for the extension of the legs during a tackle, which would allow for the momentum contributed by the players speed to pass through the body towards the point of impact (the players helmet). If the point of impact of the player being tackled is [i]also [/i]the helmet, that is a ton of force to be absorbed by a piece of equipment, and you also have to add to the fact that the players head is [i]not [/i]in a stable position, like the tacklers.

A punch depends more on the strength of the person as opposed to the speed of the punch. And the strength of a punch is driven by the power of the biceps, triceps, shoulder and chest. Now compare that with a tackle, which can be compared to the squat exercise. Do you think a player can bicep curl, tricep curl, shoulder press or bench press a higher weight than they can squat? I don't think so. You know why? Because during a squat you're using the largest muscle in the body, the gluteus maximus, in combination with the muscles in the legs.

With all that, I think helmet to helmet surpasses the power of a punch substantially. If a punch were really that dangerous, then why would MMA not have a KO every fight? A punch has to be placed in a couple of areas [i]exactly [/i]in order to even daze the opponent, while an illegal helmet to helmet collision would KO/daze the player every time (why don't we get some players to demonstrate?.... *crickets*).

That's my opinion anyway, and probably why helmet to helmet is a much more violent action.
[/quote]

I know, but a helmet to helmet hit is not always intentional.
A punch to someones head is, there is no question about it.
Imagine next week, Harrison punches Flacco, are you ok with him only being fined $25k?
A Punch is a punch. Helmet to helmet, or even hitting with the crown of the helmet, like Ngata did and was fined, isn't always intentional, and not always in order to injure.
But, there is only one reason you throw a punch.

[XxSizzleXx]

Meh, it just shows how people can overblow things. It's a big deal now because someone has reacted. If this was 10 years ago it would not even be topic worthy.

Other than the neck shots I like the way he plays

[flynismo]

[quote name='XxSizzleXx' timestamp='1291085325' post='554712']<br />You guys are like a church choir<br />[/quote]


perhaps. And some of us don't want trash on our team.

[XxSizzleXx]

[quote name='theFRANCHISE' timestamp='1291076228' post='554491']
Hitting someone with your helmet constitutes using a non-lethal weapon in the league. The fines for fighting make sense in that they are usually heat-of-the-moment reactions and not the result of any true malice. [b]Although, in the case of Andre Johnson, he might actually have had some legitimate beef with Cortland Finnegan, and I can't blame Johnson at all.[/b]

Also, the context of the situation would probably come into play. If someone, say, sucker-punched Flacco and pounded on him excessively until it got to the point where he's knocked out of the game for whatever reason, I can see where a fine would be larger. Or, if blows were to strike some officials trying to break up the fight, I can also see where the fine would be larger.
[/quote]


You obviously have not heard of Todd Bertuzzi and what he is known for. Why should it be ok just becasue the player has 'beef' with a person, it doesn't give them the right to act outside of the rules. You are basically giving him an excuse pass.

[XxSizzleXx]

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1291087481' post='554777']
perhaps. And some of us don't want trash on our team.
[/quote]

Coming from the guy who rambled on about Randy Moss for 2 weeks, gimme a break lol

[CaliFalconsfan]

Great fight; Johnson owned Finnegan.

And with a name like Cortland Finnegan, you deserve to be beaten up.

Good job Andre!

[XxSizzleXx]

[quote name='CaliFalconsfan' timestamp='1291087683' post='554792']
Great fight; Johnson owned Finnegan.

And with a name like Cortland Finnegan, you deserve to be beaten up.

Good job Andre!
[/quote]

I admit he has one of 'those' faces, Doesn't help he looks like a clown.

[AwakenTheDemon]

[quote name='XxSizzleXx' timestamp='1291087583' post='554785']
You obviously have not heard of Todd Bertuzzi and what he is known for. Why should it be ok just becasue the player has 'beef' with a person, it doesn't give them the right to act outside of the rules. You are basically giving him an excuse pass.
[/quote]

Franny isn't excusing Johnson. However, AJ and Innegan have quite the history, at least once before Innegan jumped on AJ's back after he got burned.

And no one is "overblowing" anything. This isn't the first time Cortland has instigate fights and gone for opposing players necks and facemasks. So it's not like this is a one time offense. Truth be told, Innegan probably does a lot more on the field that doesn't get reported.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='XxSizzleXx' timestamp='1291087409' post='554773']
Meh, it just shows how people can overblow things. It's a big deal now because someone has reacted. If this was 10 years ago it would not even be topic worthy.

Other than the neck shots I like the way he plays
[/quote]

I disagree. This was somewhat of unprecedented event with two NFL players pulling off each other's facemasks and one throwing blows. If it had happened 10 years ago, it definitely would have still been "topic-worthy" but not as widley discussed with internet use being lower and social media sites non-existent.

So, you like him drawing dumb penalties like jumping on a receiver's back after the ball has already landed?

[flynismo]

[quote name='XxSizzleXx' timestamp='1291087647' post='554790']<br />Coming from the guy who rambled on about Randy Moss for 2 weeks, gimme a break lol<br />[/quote]


because Randy Moss is trash? Riiiiight.

[Nobi]

Bottom line I think both players should have been suspended for 1 game. You have to take your rare opportunity to make an example if you are the commissioner... and considering his punishments in the past for lesser infractions I expected a lot more than a $25,000 fine.

[berad]

[quote name='Nobi' timestamp='1291144167' post='555257']
Bottom line I think both players should have been suspended for 1 game. You have to take your rare opportunity to make an example if you are the commissioner... and considering his punishments in the past for lesser infractions I expected a lot more than a $25,000 fine.
[/quote]

$25K is the maximum for an on-field fight, I believe. The same fine Richard Seymour got.

[purple.n.black]

That is the max? But when you do something you are supposed to do such as tackle, but not the right way you can get fined 75000 or maybe more?
If Texans weren't playing this Thursday on NFLN Johnson and Finnegan WOULD be suspended. But without Johnson it wouldn't be a game so NFLN wants the ratings.

[theFRANCHISE]

[quote name='purple.n.black' timestamp='1291175414' post='555860']
That is the max? But when you do something you are supposed to do such as tackle, but not the right way you can get fined 75000 or maybe more?
If Texans weren't playing this Thursday on NFLN Johnson and Finnegan WOULD be suspended. But without Johnson it wouldn't be a game so NFLN wants the ratings.
[/quote]
You also have to figure that Andre Johnson's reputation possibly plays into it. Johnson has never been fined (to my knowledge) for anything related to an on-field infraction or an off-field legal transgression. Johnson is the model to which the league wants NFL players to aspire because he does frequent community work, he has a great relationship with the local media, and he seems to be an upstanding person, and all of this is in addition to his amazing accomplishments on the field. And through it all, he has yet to be on a playoff squad but he still has not blown up on the media and his teammates like other players have. The example that he sets is why he is entitled to a slap on the wrist in the eyes of the league, and I'm sure many fans would be ok with letting Johnson get off easy because he doesn't seem like your usual troublemaker.

Cortland Finnegan, on the other hand, is a repeat offender and has a reputation, and he lived up to that reputation in his actions prior to the fight and then his piss-poor attitude about it immediately afterwards. I'm surprised he didn't get suspended, but I suppose they chalked it up to the humiliation of having been beaten up on television for the nation to see in highlight reels.

Sure, ratings probably had [i]some[/i] factor in the discipline, but I don't believe it was an overriding factor, especially since the Texans don't have many stars to begin with. To be honest, many casual fans don't know who Andre Johnson is, largely because the Texans have never played well enough to really be in the national spotlight on a frequent basis.

[purple.n.black]

[quote name='theFRANCHISE' timestamp='1291175866' post='555867']
You also have to figure that Andre Johnson's reputation possibly plays into it. Johnson has never been fined (to my knowledge) for anything related to an on-field infraction or an off-field legal transgression. Johnson is the model to which the league wants NFL players to aspire because he does frequent community work, he has a great relationship with the local media, and he seems to be an upstanding person, and all of this is in addition to his amazing accomplishments on the field. And through it all, he has yet to be on a playoff squad but he still has not blown up on the media and his teammates like other players have. The example that he sets is why he is entitled to a slap on the wrist in the eyes of the league, and I'm sure many fans would be ok with letting Johnson get off easy because he doesn't seem like your usual troublemaker.

Cortland Finnegan, on the other hand, is a repeat offender and has a reputation, and he lived up to that reputation in his actions prior to the fight and then his piss-poor attitude about it immediately afterwards. I'm surprised he didn't get suspended, but I suppose they chalked it up to the humiliation of having been beaten up on television for the nation to see in highlight reels.

Sure, ratings probably had [i]some[/i] factor in the discipline, but I don't believe it was an overriding factor, especially since the Texans don't have many stars to begin with. To be honest, many casual fans don't know who Andre Johnson is, largely because the Texans have never played well enough to really be in the national spotlight on a frequent basis.
[/quote]
THe thing is if Finnegan was suspended, they would definitely have to suspend Johnson. Johnson did not start off in the situation as bad as Finnegan but he certainly finished much worse and unprofessionally. THerefore, if they suspended Finnegan like I am sure they wanted to, they would have to suspend Johnson. And if anything the Texans not having many stars to begin with only adds to their decision to not suspend them. Schaub throwing to Walter and Daniels on primetime TV is usually nowhere near as exciting as watching watching Schaub throw to them AND Johnson.

[theFRANCHISE]

[quote name='purple.n.black' timestamp='1291176394' post='555874']
THe thing is if Finnegan was suspended, they would definitely have to suspend Johnson. Johnson did not start off in the situation as bad as Finnegan but he certainly finished much worse and unprofessionally. THerefore, if they suspended Finnegan like I am sure they wanted to, they would have to suspend Johnson. And if anything the Texans not having many stars to begin with only adds to their decision to not suspend them. Schaub throwing to Walter and Daniels on primetime TV is usually nowhere near as exciting as watching watching Schaub throw to them AND Johnson.
[/quote]
My argument, though, is that the NFL draws a ridiculous amount of viewers even when there's no featured stars. In a game with the star power of a Michael Vick during his magical run alone, the game will win the ratings battle tomorrow night. Even without the stars, however, the NFL consistently brings in enough viewers; case-in-point, this past Monday night's game with the 49ers and Cardinals, where Larry Fitzgerald was the only real draw and he's only really been a household name since their Super Bowl season. The game was a clunker of epic proportions and lots of prognosticators figured as such, and the game still drew ratings and held them rather consistently by the quarter-hour (save for the fourth quarter) despite the game being out of reach. Why? Because the NFL has turned into must-see TV, regardless of the teams playing and the quality of play.

Again, while I agree that ratings might have had [i]some[/i] influence, I think it was a miniscule part of the decision compared to Johnson's clean reputation.