Honest Debate Positions

[flynismo]

[quote name='RoflDogs' timestamp='1290875120' post='551589']<br />Players might be &gt; Scheme, but the scheme can be used to disguise weaknesses and make your defense better<br /><br />Ex. Rex Ryan.<br />[/quote]

what weaknesses did our defense have in the Ryan era? We had pass rushers, run stuffers, cover corners who could press and play the run, even a LB who could play DB/SS. Honestly, the only weaknesses we may have had during that time were probably due to the scheme.

[RoflDogs]

2007 we had an awful year. We were riddled with injuries. Corey Ivy started 13 games! Pryce missed 11 games. Samari missed 11 games. Cmac missed 8 games. Im pretty sure most of you remember the worst CB duo ever between the likes of Oglesby, Prude, Pittman, and Ivy.

Do you know what we finished in total defense that year?


6th. That's doing pretty a pretty good job with all those crazy injuries we had, not to mention all the offensive ineptness with turnovers

[Bltravens]

[quote name='RoflDogs' timestamp='1290892805' post='551724']
2007 we had an awful year. We were riddled with injuries. Corey Ivy started 13 games! Pryce missed 11 games. Samari missed 11 games. Cmac missed 8 games. Im pretty sure most of you remember the worst CB duo ever between the likes of Oglesby, Prude, Pittman, and Ivy.

Do you know what we finished in total defense that year?


6th. That's doing pretty a pretty good job with all those crazy injuries we had, not to mention all the offensive ineptness with turnovers
[/quote]
We also had the #25th(around there) ranked scoring defense however.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='RoflDogs' timestamp='1290875120' post='551589']
Players might be > Scheme, but the scheme can be used to disguise weaknesses and make your defense better

Ex. Rex Ryan.
[/quote]

Rex's schemes work best when he has great players. Was he able to disguise the weaknesses in '07?

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='wayne' timestamp='1290848165' post='551552']
He said to also prove it which the statement you typed in fail to do so. You also used a key word which was " Great ". Of course great players > scheme but what about your average player which is the majority on all teams in the league ? Look at the players that played great here and when they left, they were below average to average players at best ( Adalious Thomas comes first in mind ). Will wait for you to respond b4 I go any further with this.
[/quote]

You call me out for not elaborating on my point but what proof do you have that Thomas or any other player that has left the Ravens in the past struggled because of a change in scheme?

Thomas had a fine first season in NE but fell off the map the next two seasons. Was it the scheme or did age and injuries(he suffered a broken forearm in 2008) hit him hard? Belichick likely didn't change much to his defense between '07 and '09, which makes believe Thomas simply got old quick and injuries took their toll.

Another famous ex-Ravens is Jamie Sharper. He was a really good player here and then recorded over 100 tackles in three seasons as a Texan before getting hurt in '05 and tumbling out of football. Was it the scheme that made him a tackling here as well Houston? I doubt it.

Edgerton Hartwell also comes to mind. He had three really good seasons in baltimore after his rookie year before becoming a Falcon. Did he become an average player overnight or did injuries cause him to 19 games in Atlanta? I'd say it was the latter.

Bart Scott was rarely celebrated here but did the dirty work and is doing the same in New York. Is it Rex's scheme that gives him the strength to take on FBs and guards or tackle well? No. It's because he's a good player.

So which defensive players exactly played well in Baltimore, left, and became "below average to average players at best"?

[flynismo]

[quote name='Bltravens' timestamp='1290892978' post='551726']<br />We also had the #25th(around there) ranked scoring defense however.<br />[/quote]

yeah, and the only thing that saved our defense from ranking any lower in passing yardage is all the short fields we gave our opponents.
The game that stands out more than any other was our second game against PIT, and Ivy and Pittman were our starting CBs.
ROethlisberger just destroyed us....come to think of it, it seems like teams just scored on us at will half the year. God, we were the ones who gave Miami the gift of not being the first 0-16 team in history, via a long TD pass to Greg "All Day" Camirillo. Memories...

[JohnJohnson]

[quote name='RoflDogs' timestamp='1290892805' post='551724']
2007 we had an awful year. We were riddled with injuries. Corey Ivy started 13 games! Pryce missed 11 games. Samari missed 11 games. Cmac missed 8 games. Im pretty sure most of you remember the worst CB duo ever between the likes of Oglesby, Prude, Pittman, and Ivy.

Do you know what we finished in total defense that year?


6th. That's doing pretty a pretty good job with all those crazy injuries we had, not to mention all the offensive ineptness with turnovers
[/quote]

Hmmm...injuries at the corner position? Sounds familiar. Was our secondary not riddled with injuries when Fabian and Webb went down last season, or when Foxworth went down during training camp? I think that the old Cmac, Samari and/or Foxworth would help, people have been talking about our secondary concerns for a long time.

Maybe Rex was a little stubborn in 2007 with the blitzing, when we simply didn't have the personnel.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1290896173' post='551747']
yeah, and the only thing that saved our defense from ranking any lower in passing yardage is all the short fields we gave our opponents.
[b]The game that stands out more than any other was our second game against PIT, and Ivy and Pittman were our starting CBs.
ROethlisberger just destroyed us[/b]....come to think of it, it seems like teams just scored on us at will half the year. God, we were the ones who gave Miami the gift of not being the first 0-16 team in history, via a long TD pass to Greg "All Day" Camirillo. Memories...
[/quote]

That was actually the first game on MNF. Derrick Martin was the one who got the start next to Ivy but both of them were worked all night.

Pittman took his beating against the Colts a number of weeks later.

[Bltravens]

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1290896173' post='551747']
yeah, and the only thing that saved our defense from ranking any lower in passing yardage is all the short fields we gave our opponents.
The game that stands out more than any other was our second game against PIT, and Ivy and Pittman were our starting CBs.
ROethlisberger just destroyed us....come to think of it, it seems like teams just scored on us at will half the year. God, we were the ones who gave Miami the gift of not being the first 0-16 team in history, via a long TD pass to Greg "All Day" Camirillo. Memories...
[/quote]
Its what happens when a DC refuses to adjust his style, much like his father Buddy when the Dolphins beat the Bears in 85, refused to adjust. Like seriously how are gonna be blitz happy when Pittman, Ivy, Martin are your corners...

[flynismo]

Okay, here's what I would like to debate.When Flacco had that game in week 2 that everyone complained about, I distinctly recall saying, that for better or worse, the game in Pit in week 4 was going to be the turning point in his career.And now we have the benefit of hindsight; we can look back and see how Flacco has played since that game in Cincy.I would like to present the argument that Flacco can now be considered an elite quarterback.First, we need to define precisely what elite means in this instance, because elite is a fairly subjective term.I propose that in order for a player to be elite, he must possess the following qualities:1. It must be reasonable to believe that he is a player that can succeed and play at a high level in ANY system.2. He must rank highly in relevant statistical categories, or otherwise be able to confirm through statistics that he plays on a Pro Bowl level.3. He must be a player that other teams focus their game plans around. Every week, each team focuses on two or three key players of their opponents'. If you're not one of them, you are not elite.4. To mitigate extremist viewpoints, there must be a general consensus that a player is among the elite, not just a good player.Now that I have framed my definition of what it means to be an elite NFL player, I will move on to presenting my argument for Joe Flacco being an elite NFL quarterback.I anticipate that requirement #4 is going to be my biggest hurdle in this argument. Among fans, there seems to be a healthy portion divided between Flacco being "pretty good", "young and unconfident with a long way to go" and "Flacco is one of the best QBs out there." Clearly, among fans, there is no consensus, which seems to indicate that Joe is not elite since he does not meet one of the requirements. My response to that, however, is that Joe is currently in the top 10 candidates out of every player in the league (not just QBs) in the MVP balloting. So, among the 'experts', there is a very strong consensus that Joe is not just elite, but potential MVP material. While the experts are also dirtbags in their blatant hypocrisy and apparent favortism against our team and in favor of others such as PIT/NYJ/NE according to some fans, that actually works in favor of my argument. See, despite their favoritism and hypocrisy, they still have no choice but to look at Flacco and declare him one of the forerunners of the MVP race. Now, THATS commanding respect.I've addressed what I feel is the main argument against my claim, and will address others as they come about. Comments?

[RavensAllTheWay]

But here's the problem. How can we just reasonably believe that he can succeed under any system? He probably can, but there's no proof of it. Also, point #3 is really vague, since this is a QB were talking about. Of course defenses will scheme against QBs, since they manage the game and throw the ball.

I honestly don't think it matters whether some one or some team is considered elite. Whether or not Joe's considered elite today doesn't change what he's done up to this point in his career, and it has no effect on what he does going forward.

[flynismo]

,[quote name='RavensAllTheWay' timestamp='1290908363' post='551834']<br />But here's the problem.  How can we just reasonably believe that he can succeed under any system?  He probably can, but there's no proof of it.  Also, point #3 is really vague, since this is a QB were talking about.  Of course defenses will scheme against QBs, since they manage the game and throw the ball.  <br /><br />I honestly don't think it matters whether some one or some team is considered elite.  Whether or not Joe's considered elite today doesn't change what he's done up to this point in his career, and it has no effect on what he does going forward.<br />[/quote]


I know it doesn't mean much whether people label flacco as elite or not, just wanted to throw something out for discussion to help get the thread going back on course.

As for playing in different systems, I think it is reasonable to believe Joe can play on any team in the league and do well for a couple reasons.

One reason is that Joe has been successful in our system with less than adequate talent around him (until now). That is a big indicator in itself, as well as the fact that he did so as a rookie and sophomore.

Second reason is that a team will build/adjust it's offense around their QB. Even if they did not, really, there's not much difference between playing here or in San Fran for example ... Every team wants a QB who does not turn the ball over excessively and can either make a wide range of throws or make the throws that suit the routes the recievers are capable of running. ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

[theFRANCHISE]

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1290906760' post='551812']
Okay, here's what I would like to debate.When Flacco had that game in week 2 that everyone complained about, I distinctly recall saying, that for better or worse, the game in Pit in week 4 was going to be the turning point in his career.And now we have the benefit of hindsight; we can look back and see how Flacco has played since that game in Cincy.I would like to present the argument that Flacco can now be considered an elite quarterback.First, we need to define precisely what elite means in this instance, because elite is a fairly subjective term.I propose that in order for a player to be elite, he must possess the following qualities:1. It must be reasonable to believe that he is a player that can succeed and play at a high level in ANY system.2. He must rank highly in relevant statistical categories, or otherwise be able to confirm through statistics that he plays on a Pro Bowl level.3. He must be a player that other teams focus their game plans around. Every week, each team focuses on two or three key players of their opponents'. If you're not one of them, you are not elite.4. To mitigate extremist viewpoints, there must be a general consensus that a player is among the elite, not just a good player.Now that I have framed my definition of what it means to be an elite NFL player, I will move on to presenting my argument for Joe Flacco being an elite NFL quarterback.I anticipate that requirement #4 is going to be my biggest hurdle in this argument. Among fans, there seems to be a healthy portion divided between Flacco being "pretty good", "young and unconfident with a long way to go" and "Flacco is one of the best QBs out there." Clearly, among fans, there is no consensus, which seems to indicate that Joe is not elite since he does not meet one of the requirements. My response to that, however, is that Joe is currently in the top 10 candidates out of every player in the league (not just QBs) in the MVP balloting. So, among the 'experts', there is a very strong consensus that Joe is not just elite, but potential MVP material. While the experts are also dirtbags in their blatant hypocrisy and apparent favortism against our team and in favor of others such as PIT/NYJ/NE according to some fans, that actually works in favor of my argument. See, despite their favoritism and hypocrisy, they still have no choice but to look at Flacco and declare him one of the forerunners of the MVP race. Now, THATS commanding respect.I've addressed what I feel is the main argument against my claim, and will address others as they come about. Comments?
[/quote]
I think that's a solid enough argument, although I might be able to poke some holes.

You readily admit that the term "elite" is subjective, which is the first problem with that argument or any qualitative argument, for that matter. However, I would agree with your definition, as that fits my personal view of the elite. Although the consensus may not indicate that Flacco is elite, the first three qualifications are strong enough to make the claim without looking silly. Theoretically, a baseline definition of an elite player is one that plays at a high level. Flacco may not have top-5 QB numbers, but his progression and the Pro Bowl-qualifying statistics are certainly proof enough that he can break into that top-5 qualification. Furthermore, there's more than 5 elite QBs in the league, so top-5 isn't even an accurate assessment, while top-10 is too broad of a focus, as that comprises over 31% of the league's starting QBs, and it's not true that 31% of teams have elite QBs.

Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Drew Brees, Aaron Rodgers, and Philip Rivers are considered the league's undisputed elite, but Matt Schaub, Matt Ryan and Joe Flacco are knocking on the door. Ben Roethlisberger consistently jumps in and out of the conversation because of his inconsistent play, while Matt Hasselbeck has fallen from grace and the verdict is still out on Mark Sanchez.

If the final argument is made that few other QBs mean more to their team than Flacco, there's enough guys that bump him from the list given their respective settings. Manning, Brady, Brees, Rodgers, and Rivers define their team's offense and are the catalyst for their team's success. Flacco is not necessarily the end-all, be-all of the Ravens, although he is the person that could push the team over the championship hump. The Ravens have won in multiple ways aside from Flacco's quarterbacking, although his arm has contributed to much of the offense's success.

[RavensAllTheWay]

Alright here's one. Kelly Gregg needs to be replaced very soon.

He's not collapsing the pocket, he's not opening things up for other rushers, he's not even winning a lot of one on one matchups against the opposing teams center.

Some people say that our pass rush is better when Suggs is playing better. Not true at all, just go back to the Bills and Falcons games (along with others). He was in the backfield multiple times, while no one else generated any pressure at all. Not a good combo for QBs like Fitz and Ryan, who had plenty of time for most those games.

Yes, our personnel up front is weak when compared to past Raven teams, but basic football knowledge reminds us that pressure starts up front. NT is a really important position, and although Gregg is faster and more athletic than just about any NT in this league, he doesn't do the things Casey Hampton, Vince Wilfork and others have done their entire careers, which is open things up for the LBs.

Not to mention, he's 34 and in his 12th year in the league. We have Terrence Cody and Art Jones (who's on IR this year) who we just drafted. Hopefully they can give us more of a burst. Cody, who was great in preseason, hasn't done much this regular season when given the chance, but he COULD be the long term answer to generating pressure as he gains experience in this league going forward.

Also, in 2008, when Gregg was injured, we racked up 33 regular season sacks. In 2009, we racked up 32 with Gregg back, which was tied for 18th in the league. Now 10 games into 2010 with Gregg being our NT, we've got 19 sacks which is currently tied for 23th most in the league. This is getting progessively worse each season.

[flynismo]

[quote name='theFRANCHISE' timestamp='1290909904' post='551856']If the final argument is made that few other QBs mean more to their team than Flacco, there's enough guys that bump him from the list given their respective settings. Manning, Brady, Brees, Rodgers, and Rivers define their team's offense and are the catalyst for their team's success. Flacco is not necessarily the end-all, be-all of the Ravens, although he is the person that could push the team over the championship hump. The Ravens have won in multiple ways aside from Flacco's quarterbacking, although his arm has contributed to much of the offense's success.<br />[/quote]



i just want to focus on this part of the response for now, since I am strapped for time and I think that this is the most compelling argument that anyone can make (was waiting to see who would bring it up; leave it to Franny to be the one!).

My response to that is that 1. It is unfairly punishing Flacco for being on a more well rounded team and 2. Manning (for example) being more important to the Colts' system than Flacco to the Ravens' one does not make Flacco any less of a player. You can also say that Fitzpatrick is more important to BUF than Flacco is to us, but what is that really saying? Does it mean Fitz is better than Flacco, or that Flacco is any less of a player?

[Rinbee]

[quote name='hammer' timestamp='1290846453' post='551547']
1. Do we need to fire the Offensive Coordinator? Prove it with evidence, not emotion.
2. Do we need to fire the Defensive coordinator? Prove it with evidence, not emotion.
3. Is Joe Flacco an elite QB? Prove it with evidence, not emotion.
4. Is Harbaugh a bad coach? Prove it with evidence, not emotion.
5. Is Suggs a great pass rusher? Prove it with evidence, not emotion.
6. Do we need to play Krueger more? Prove it with evidence, not emotion.
7. Is Cody a bust? Prove it with evidence, not emotion.
8. Is Ozzie a good GM? Prove it with evidence, not emotion.

What I am intereseted in is not the fan emotions. We have a lot of informed fans and they are really capable of presenting proof of their positions. This is what I, presonally enjoy about the board, but sometimes I just hear emotional responses only.

How about some proof? Thats all.
[/quote]


These are not things you can prove. They are subjective and not subject to an experiment (which is what you need for proof). What if Cam called for a run on 3rd and 1 instead of a screen to Rice (which was overthwown). IS it proof that we should average more than 18 points with our offensive weapons or just an opinion.

Maybe we lack the intensity and drive the Jets seem to have. Is that too emotional? Still can't prove it.

I get what you are trying to do, but it's an impossible task. Online forums attract the emotional not the logical. You're talking to the wrong crowd.

[hammer]

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1290906760' post='551812']
Okay, here's what I would like to debate.When Flacco had that game in week 2 that everyone complained about, I distinctly recall saying, that for better or worse, the game in Pit in week 4 was going to be the turning point in his career.And now we have the benefit of hindsight; we can look back and see how Flacco has played since that game in Cincy.I would like to present the argument that Flacco can now be considered an elite quarterback.First, we need to define precisely what elite means in this instance, because elite is a fairly subjective term.I propose that in order for a player to be elite, he must possess the following qualities:1. It must be reasonable to believe that he is a player that can succeed and play at a high level in ANY system.2. He must rank highly in relevant statistical categories, or otherwise be able to confirm through statistics that he plays on a Pro Bowl level.3. He must be a player that other teams focus their game plans around. Every week, each team focuses on two or three key players of their opponents'. If you're not one of them, you are not elite.4. To mitigate extremist viewpoints, there must be a general consensus that a player is among the elite, not just a good player.Now that I have framed my definition of what it means to be an elite NFL player, I will move on to presenting my argument for Joe Flacco being an elite NFL quarterback.I anticipate that requirement #4 is going to be my biggest hurdle in this argument. Among fans, there seems to be a healthy portion divided between Flacco being "pretty good", "young and unconfident with a long way to go" and "Flacco is one of the best QBs out there." Clearly, among fans, there is no consensus, which seems to indicate that Joe is not elite since he does not meet one of the requirements. My response to that, however, is that Joe is currently in the top 10 candidates out of every player in the league (not just QBs) in the MVP balloting. So, among the 'experts', there is a very strong consensus that Joe is not just elite, but potential MVP material. While the experts are also dirtbags in their blatant hypocrisy and apparent favortism against our team and in favor of others such as PIT/NYJ/NE according to some fans, that actually works in favor of my argument. See, despite their favoritism and hypocrisy, they still have no choice but to look at Flacco and declare him one of the forerunners of the MVP race. Now, THATS commanding respect.I've addressed what I feel is the main argument against my claim, and will address others as they come about. Comments?
[/quote]

Great position post! First, I agree that the Pittsbrgh game represented a turning point for Flacco. One, because he acheived a personal milestone that he (and many others too) have never done in beating Pitt at home. Secondly, I think that was his first game winning TD pass. In hind sight, think that game also set a lot of other intangibles into motion (increased confidence, respect by pro bowl vets, etc). I also agree that Joes stats rank up with the NFL leaders. I believe he could succeed in other NFL systems, and the other team has to scheme against him.

Conclusion - Before the Pittsburgh game, I thought he was better than Boller, but I saw nothing that suggested "special/elite." Since that time he has improved "dramatically" to a point where I can see his potential to be special. I can call myself a FOF right now - but I still wouldn't call him "elite" just yet.

[b]Heres why.[/b]I believe that "elite" is a word reserved for a precious few people irregardless of good stats. While the stats are an important component, I believe "elite" has more do with [b]"imposition of will"[/b] on opponents, while "inspiring confidence" in his own team. I think "elite" players are feared by opponents, and command respect by their peers. I believe "elite" players are expected to succeed - you leave dissapointed and surprised when they don't. Manning, Brady, Roethlesberger, Rogers, Brees and Rivers come to mind when I think of elite QB's. When they show up, you already know you are going to get "bloody-gored" but you have to face them anyway, because they are on the schedule. Joes stats are still a bit uneven (better versus some teams than others).

I understand that these kind of [b]intangibles[/b] dont show up in stats, but they show up in games. Yes, I really do believe that Joe is now a bonafide warrior now. But I think the word elite is more than a warrior, but yet, [b]"a killer." [/b]Joes not there yet (IMO).

[hammer]

[quote name='Rinbee' timestamp='1290912169' post='551878']
These are not things you can prove. They are subjective and not subject to an experiment (which is what you need for proof). What if Cam called for a run on 3rd and 1 instead of a screen to Rice (which was overthwown). IS it proof that we should average more than 18 points with our offensive weapons or just an opinion.

Maybe we lack the intensity and drive the Jets seem to have. Is that too emotional? Still can't prove it.

I get what you are trying to do, but it's an impossible task. Online forums attract the emotional not the logical. You're talking to the wrong crowd.
[/quote]

I actually didnt dream up these things. They come off the board (and not my positions, BTW). When the come up, the dialogue seems to always lead to name calling, exaggeration, and emotional outrage.

I am aware that absolute proof is not acheivable at all. But some of these positions are so radical, I wonder if people really believe it themselves. So this is an opportunity to make your positions know with a mandate for evidence. Only then can were have a mature dialogue and not emotional rants.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='RavensAllTheWay' timestamp='1290910248' post='551860'] Art Jones (who's on IR this year)...
[/quote]

When was Arthur Jones put on IR?
I thought he's been a healthy scratch for every game which speaks to his need for polishing. Even though I and others still think the team needs to stud 3-4 DE in the off-season adept at pass rushing, I'm hoping Jones can at least develop into a role player next season.

[theFRANCHISE]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' timestamp='1290915354' post='551919']
When was Arthur Jones put on IR?
I thought he's been a healthy scratch for every game which speaks to his need for polishing. Even though I and others still think the team needs to stud 3-4 DE in the off-season adept at pass rushing, I'm hoping Jones can at least develop into a role player next season.
[/quote]
Jones is reportedly seeing more playing time tomorrow, per [url="http://twitter.com/RavensInsider/status/8719514095063040"]Aaron Wilson[/url] of NFP and the Carroll-County Times. Jones even tweeted on his account ([url="http://twitter.com/Artj97/status/8710213246914560"]@Artj97[/url]) that he'll be making his NFL debut.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='theFRANCHISE' timestamp='1290919882' post='551938']
Jones is reportedly seeing more playing time tomorrow, per [url="http://twitter.com/RavensInsider/status/8719514095063040"]Aaron Wilson[/url] of NFP and the Carroll-County Times. Jones even tweeted on his account ([url="http://twitter.com/Artj97/status/8710213246914560"]@Artj97[/url]) that he'll be making his NFL debut.
[/quote]

Thanks for the heads up Franny. I just read the National Football Post reporting the same thing and it looks like Redding may not play due to an arm injury. I'll definitely be looking for Jones; hopefully he can show the coaches something and generate some pressue.

[Romo Ravens]

[quote name='gabefergy' timestamp='1290880221' post='551617']
first I would just like to say that Scarlet Johannson is the hottest woman in the world. I feel passionately about that fact, and no matter what anyone says my opinion will not be swayed.
[/quote]

Hell Yea. Quoted for truth brotha.

[RavensAllTheWay]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' timestamp='1290920117' post='551939']
Thanks for the heads up Franny. I just read the National Football Post reporting the same thing and it looks like Redding may not play due to an arm injury. I'll definitely be looking for Jones; [b]hopefully he can show the coaches something and generate some pressue[/b].
[/quote]
Yeah, seriously.

But yeah, I was mistaken by saying he was on IR. I confused him with Ramon Harewood.

[flynismo]

[quote name='hammer' timestamp='1290913495' post='551895']
I can call myself a FOF right now - but I still wouldn't call him "elite" just yet.

[b]Heres why.[/b]I believe that "elite" is a word reserved for a precious few people irregardless of good stats. While the stats are an important component, I believe "elite" has more do with [b]"imposition of will"[/b] on opponents, while "inspiring confidence" in his own team. I think "elite" players are feared by opponents, and command respect by their peers. I believe "elite" players are expected to succeed - you leave dissapointed and surprised when they don't. Manning, Brady, Roethlesberger, Rogers, Brees and Rivers come to mind when I think of elite QB's. When they show up, you already know you are going to get "bloody-gored" but you have to face them anyway, because they are on the schedule. Joes stats are still a bit uneven (better versus some teams than others).

I understand that these kind of [b]intangibles[/b] dont show up in stats, but they show up in games. Yes, I really do believe that Joe is now a bonafide warrior now. But I think the word elite is more than a warrior, but yet, [b]"a killer." [/b]Joes not there yet (IMO).
[/quote]

One thing we definitely can agree on is that words like "great" and "elite" are tossed around too lightly. In fact, I'm a bit hesitant to make that proclamation about Flacco myself, simply because I want to see how he does in his rematch against Pittsburgh, and against the Saints before I go all in.
But I wanted to present the argument for two reasons:
1. To keep the spirit of the thread alive. I like the concept of what you want to do, and declaring Joe as elite is the perfect topic, because we can make very strong arguments for both sides of that debate.
2. Because well, I think he is in the early stages of "eliteness", if that makes any sense.

I agree fully with your comment:
"[i]While the stats are an important component, I believe "elite" has more do with [b]"imposition of will"[/b] on opponents, while "inspiring confidence" in his own team. "[/i]

We just disagree on whether Flacco has been doing that or not. And perhaps I'm wrong, but I think you probably agree that he has been imposing his will this season, he just hasn't been doing it long enough for you to feel comfortable giving him that honor.

Regarding this comment:
[i] I believe "elite" players are expected to succeed - you leave dissapointed and surprised when they don't. [/i]

Again I agree with that. And if you recall, the expectations from Flacco were through the roof heading into the season. There were people like myself who were predicting our offense would be one of the top 3 - 5 in the league (and I was far from alone in those expectations .... hence the outburst after week 2. No one would have been surprised by Boller stinking it up like that, but Flacco...as we saw, is a different story.) There were people like me predicting a 4000 yard, 30 TD seasonf or Flacco (which, btw, he has a strong shot of achieving). And after his performances against NYJ, Steelers and Patriots, I am confident in Joe regardless of the team/defense we are facing.

[UMDan]

^
Well said... I generally agree

[hammer]

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1290924193' post='551970']
One thing we definitely can agree on is that words like "great" and "elite" are tossed around too lightly. In fact, I'm a bit hesitant to make that proclamation about Flacco myself, simply because I want to see how he does in his rematch against Pittsburgh, and against the Saints before I go all in.
But I wanted to present the argument for two reasons:
1. To keep the spirit of the thread alive. I like the concept of what you want to do, and declaring Joe as elite is the perfect topic, because we can make very strong arguments for both sides of that debate.
2. Because well, I think he is in the early stages of "eliteness", if that makes any sense.

I agree fully with your comment:
"[i]While the stats are an important component, I believe "elite" has more do with [b]"imposition of will"[/b] on opponents, while "inspiring confidence" in his own team. "[/i]

We just disagree on whether Flacco has been doing that or not. And perhaps I'm wrong, but I think you probably agree that he has been imposing his will this season, he just hasn't been doing it long enough for you to feel comfortable giving him that honor.

Regarding this comment:
[i] I believe "elite" players are expected to succeed - you leave dissapointed and surprised when they don't. [/i]

Again I agree with that. And if you recall, the expectations from Flacco were through the roof heading into the season. There were people like myself who were predicting our offense would be one of the top 3 - 5 in the league (and I was far from alone in those expectations .... hence the outburst after week 2. No one would have been surprised by Boller stinking it up like that, but Flacco...as we saw, is a different story.) There were people like me predicting a 4000 yard, 30 TD seasonf or Flacco (which, btw, he has a strong shot of achieving). And after his performances against NYJ, Steelers and Patriots, I am confident in Joe regardless of the team/defense we are facing.
[/quote]

Not to split hairs here, but for the sake of debate, here are some key stats for Joe:

1. [b]QB Rating[/b], 92.1, [b]14th[/b] in NFL

2. [b]YDs Passing[/b], 2433, [b]13th[/b] in NFL

3. [b]YDs P/Game[/b], 243, [b]17th[/b] in NFL

4. [b]Comp Pct[/b], 62.4, [b]16th[/b] in NFL

5. [b]TD Passes[/b], 16, [b]13th[/b] in NFL

6. [b]Red Zone Scoring[/b], 45.7, [b]24th[/b] in NFL

Now those are some pretty nice numbers, and I would agree that he is getting stronger later than he was earlier (good sign). But I really couldnt characterize his overall stats as [b]"imposition of will."[/b]

But the door is not closed for me. And I do understand what you mean by "the edge of eliteness." The next six games might just prove your position. Projections (4000 yds and 30 TDs)really havent ACTUALLY happened yet, so I cant credit Joe for the accomplishment. However, if he DOES get anywhere near those projections, it just might prove your point. Remember, his totals to date came over 10 games and you projecting him to almost double his stats over the next 6. To do that he is going to have to be on fire. Lets hope that you are right!

[Jabara]

This whole thread is a trap.
Let it die.

[hammer]

[quote name='Jabara' timestamp='1290933722' post='551993']
This whole thread is a trap.
Let it die.
[/quote]

A trap for what? Except for an honest debate site. Provide evidence.

[snevar5220]

r ravens will play with dominance, and dominate only, and perfection

[snevar5220]

keep it simple people