Merged: Flacco Progression Continues To Improve

[hammer]

[quote name='Clutch Ravens' timestamp='1290730200' post='550754']
There is, and here's a [url="http://stats.washingtonpost.com/fb/tmleaders.asp?range=NFL&type=Receiving&rank=231"]link[/url].
We (Flacco) are ranked 20th with 1036 YAC. The Chargers have 1611, Colts have 1295 and the Patriots have 1186.

Flacco has 2433 Yards.
Manning has 3059.
Rivers has 3177.
Brady has 2703.

2433 - 1036 = 1397 (Flacco, 330 attempts)
3059 - 1295 = 1662 (Manning, 438 attempts)
3177 - 1611 = 1566 (Rivers, 353 attempts)
2703 - 1186 = 1517 (Brady, 356 attempts)

So "pure" passing yards per attempt:

Flacco - 4.23
Manning - 3.79
Rivers - 4.43
Brady - 4.26

Also, projecting Flacco's numbers over Manning's attempts:
7.4x108 = 799
16/330 = 0.048x108 = 5
7/330 = 0.021 = 2

Which would, theoretically give Flacco:

3232 yards
21 TDs
9 Picks
[/quote]

So where is this link? Id like to see what variables are being used to determine the YAC figures you are quoting.

[Clutch Ravens]

[quote name='hammer' timestamp='1290732553' post='550760']
So where is this link? Id like to see what variables are being used to determine the YAC figures you are quoting.
[/quote]

The link is the word link.

[hammer]

[quote name='Clutch Ravens' timestamp='1290732602' post='550761']
The link is the word link.
[/quote]

Thanks for the link. I really appreciate your assistance here. However, I cant validate relaiability of the actual stats w/o the "variables or methodology" used (not that it is your job to prove it).

They are also attributing these stats to recievers and not the QB, so I am not certain if this would be an apples to apples comparison anyway.

But thanks again.

[scrock]

[quote name='1/28/01' timestamp='1290665439' post='550467']
Not sure if this had been mentioned or not, but Flacco is now the Ravens all time TD leader for QB's (crazy that it only took 2 and 1/2 years).
[/quote]

I think it just shows how lousy the quarterback play has been in Baltimore for such a long time, actually the entire existence of the franchise. Until now....thank you Flacco!!!!

[JohnJohnson]

[quote name='scrock' timestamp='1290890971' post='551708']
I think it just shows how lousy the quarterback play has been in Baltimore for such a long time, actually the entire existence of the franchise. Until now....thank you Flacco!!!!
[/quote]

I think Testaverde threw his TDs in 2 seasons, he was the one with the record. Flacco doing it in less than 3 seasons is still good though.

[Ravensfan23]

[quote name='scrock' timestamp='1290890971' post='551708']
I think it just shows how lousy the quarterback play has been in Baltimore for such a long time, actually the entire existence of the franchise. Until now....thank you Flacco!!!!
[/quote]

Yea and just think about how much easier it'll be to draft offensive talent now that we have Joe. The Ravens no longer have the stress of looking for a franchise QB.

Now I think next draft will be defense heavy for the Ravens. But now that we have our franchise QB, it'll make it easier for the Ravens to find some late round gems offensively. David Reed might be the start of those late round gems.

[flynismo]

Yeah, Reed looks like he has some serious potential. Even Harbs was gushing over him, talking about how he will be a household name in the next couple years.Honestly, with Flacco, Boldin and Rice here, all this offense needs is for it's line to play well and it will put up the points. If either Reed, Dickson or Pitta emerges, so much the better.I look at our old Ravens teams .... All they were truly lacking was a Joe Flacco. How many SB would we have won had Flacco been our QB all those years instead of guys like Boller/Grbac/Wright ?Thats my ultimate dream for this team -- to retain Flacco/Boldin/Rice for the remainder of their careers, and give them the equivalent of our old defense.

[darklight1216]

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1290904034' post='551788']
Yeah, Reed looks like he has some serious potential. Even Harbs was gushing over him, talking about how he will be a household name in the next couple years.Honestly, with Flacco, Boldin and Rice here, all this offense needs is for it's line to play well and it will put up the points. If either Reed, Dickson or Pitta emerges, so much the better.I look at our old Ravens teams .... All they were truly lacking was a Joe Flacco. How many SB would we have won had Flacco been our QB all those years instead of guys like Boller/Grbac/Wright ?Thats my ultimate dream for this team -- to retain Flacco/Boldin/Rice for the remainder of their careers, [b]and give them the equivalent of our old defense.[/b]
[/quote]
How old are you talking? Year 2000 is probably asking for a bit much...

That said, I really want to get excited about David Reed, but Baltimore's history of drafting WR's makes me hesitate.

[Ravensfan23]

[quote name='darklight1216' timestamp='1290905356' post='551796']
How old are you talking? Year 2000 is probably asking for a bit much...

That said, I really want to get excited about David Reed, but Baltimore's history of drafting WR's makes me hesitate.
[/quote]

Its hard for a franchise that has the amount of success during the season to draft and delevop WRs when you don't have a QB.

For years the Ravens offense has revolved around protecting the QB. I don't mean protecting him with the oline, but protecting him from matching game changing mistakes.

Now that we have a QB and some great weapons around him, thd pressure of drafting a stud at the WR position is removed IMO.

Because the Ravens were always a playoff or 500 team, drafting the WRs in the 1st round was almost impossible with ozzie no liking to trade 1st round picks.

In the past the Ravens were forced to draft WRs to try and make below average QBs look good and that was too much for guys like Mark Clayton. However now, the Ravens have a QB who is capable of making his WRs look good.

That's why there's a lot of hope about Reed for me. Because we now have guys like Q, Housh, Stallworth and Mason, there's no pressure on Reed. So he can just be a standout special teamer, pitch in as needed on offense and not have to worry about being considered a bust after only 2-3 years in the NFL.

IMO David Reed is the first WR the Ravens will truly be able to delevop.

[flynismo]

[quote name='Ravensfan23' timestamp='1290906599' post='551808']<br />Its hard for a franchise that has the amount of success during the season to draft and delevop WRs when you don't have a QB. <br /><br />For years the Ravens offense has revolved around protecting the QB. I don't mean protecting him with the oline, but protecting him from matching game changing mistakes. <br /><br />Now that we have a QB and some great weapons around him, thd pressure of drafting a stud at the WR position is removed IMO. <br /><br />Because the Ravens were always a playoff or 500 team, drafting the WRs in the 1st round was almost impossible with ozzie no liking to trade 1st round picks. <br /><br />In the past the Ravens were forced to draft WRs to try and make below average QBs look good and that was too much for guys like Mark Clayton. However now, the Ravens have a QB who is capable of making his WRs look good. <br /><br />That's why there's a lot of hope about Reed for me. Because we now have guys like Q, Housh, Stallworth and Mason, there's no pressure on Reed. So he can just be a standout special teamer, pitch in as needed on offense and not have to worry about being considered a bust after only 2-3 years in the NFL. <br /><br />IMO David Reed is the first WR the Ravens will truly be able to delevop.<br />[/quote]

great post.

[flynismo]

[quote name='darklight1216' timestamp='1290905356' post='551796']<br />How old are you talking? Year 2000 is probably asking for a bit much...<br /><br />That said, I really want to get excited about David Reed, but Baltimore's history of drafting WR's makes me hesitate.<br />[/quote]

any defense from 2001 to 2006 would be perfect to me.

And, we HAVE to get the WR right sooner or later lol, its unlikely that we will never ever draft a good one. With flacco and boldin here, Reed has everything in place for him to fill his potential...so what happens from here on out is all on him. I'm seriously developing a man crush on him the more I see him play! Which is more than I could ever say about Clayton or Taylor.

[flaccopoe]

[quote name='Clutch Ravens' timestamp='1290732602' post='550761']
The link is the word link.
[/quote]

Interesting stats: thanks! Flacco has more passing yd per attemp than Peyton: awesome!

[hammer]

[b]I made this post yesterday, prior to todays game against Tampa Bay: [/b]

What Joe has done to this point is nothing short of remarkable. He came in as a rookie, with a rookie head coach and an exotic OC. Remember;

1. he wasnt even slated to start for a couple of years, but Troy Smith got sick and Flacco was forced onto the field.

2. he came onto a extremely talented, aging and disgruntled locker room, dominated by all pro defensive vets. Seasoned defensive vets often see rookie QBs as responsible for shortening their careers B/C offensive ineptitude keeps them on the field too long. This is what divided the locker room about Boller and Billick.

3. the offense had no sense of identity and no record of success to build upon prior to his arrival.

4. the team record was 5-11 the previous year and he was a key part of improving to 11-5 his first year and 9-7 his second.

5. the team jumped from #24 in total offense to #11 in his first year and #9 in his second.

6. the team scoring improved by over 100 points the first year he started (275-385).

7. the team has made the playoffs in each year Joe has been the starting QB.

8. he has become accepted as one of the respected team leaders (ie Pittburgh game, standing up to Mason).

9. he has improved his personal stats each year and now is one of the top QBs in the league.

I could rally go on and on (opp! did I already do that?) Lol. But Joe has a really strong record of accomplishment.

As for Cam. He has handled Joe with the skill and precision that his track record suggests. There are a whole lot of reasons that you just can't give a young QB the keys to the Ferrari too soon. If the QB doesn't succeed when driving alone, the vets are gonna kill the coach for it. Remember, this is a players league, not the coaches. Cam is extending the roap at the right pace and by the end of the season (if Joe continues his consistency) I believe Cam just throws him they keys rather than riding shotgun.

Joe is right on track to becoming an elite QB and his success early in his career stands up to any QB who has ever played the game.

No. Joe has not quite reached the elite level just yet, but he has shown a progression which suggests he eventually will.

[b]Now, after todays game I can say this:[/b]

Last week I saw Joe add [b]"accuracy"[/b] to his growing list of accolades. Today, I am adding [b]"consistency." [/b]Joe is fast developing and he is getting really close to being universally recognized as an elite QB.

The last hurdle for Joe is [b]"big game dominance." [/b] If he is able to post the same kind of consistent numbers against Pittsburgh next week (on National TV), I will readily accept that Joe has reached elite status. At some point he is going to have to shine on a big stage before he acn achieve the [b]rarified air of elitism. IMO.[/b]

[FerrariFan87]

For whatever reason, Joe continues to have lackluster pocket awareness and doesn't seem to understand how to move around in the pocket or take it outside the pocket to avoid a sack and just throw it away... Once that improves, watch out.

[RoflDogs]

[quote name='Clutch Ravens' timestamp='1290730200' post='550754']
There is, and here's a [url="http://stats.washingtonpost.com/fb/tmleaders.asp?range=NFL&type=Receiving&rank=231"]link[/url].
We (Flacco) are ranked 20th with 1036 YAC. The Chargers have 1611, Colts have 1295 and the Patriots have 1186.

Flacco has 2433 Yards.
Manning has 3059.
Rivers has 3177.
Brady has 2703.

2433 - 1036 = 1397 (Flacco, 330 attempts)
3059 - 1295 = 1662 (Manning, 438 attempts)
3177 - 1611 = 1566 (Rivers, 353 attempts)
2703 - 1186 = 1517 (Brady, 356 attempts)

So "pure" passing yards per attempt:

Flacco - 4.23
Manning - 3.79
Rivers - 4.43
Brady - 4.26

Also, projecting Flacco's numbers over Manning's attempts:
7.4x108 = 799
16/330 = 0.048x108 = 5
7/330 = 0.021 = 2

Which would, theoretically give Flacco:

3232 yards
21 TDs
9 Picks
[/quote]

I think its pretty obvious that the stats would look like that with Cam Cameron's uber aggressive offense!!!

[hammer]

[quote name='FerrariFan87' timestamp='1290993262' post='553434']
For whatever reason, Joe continues to have lackluster pocket awareness and doesn't seem to understand how to move around in the pocket or take it outside the pocket to avoid a sack and just throw it away... Once that improves, watch out.
[/quote]

When you consider his [b]"entire body of work"[/b] can you at least [b]"consider"[/b] that you might be nit-picing?"

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='FerrariFan87' timestamp='1290993262' post='553434']
For whatever reason, Joe continues to have lackluster pocket awareness and doesn't seem to understand how to move around in the pocket or take it outside the pocket to avoid a sack and just throw it away... Once that improves, watch out.
[/quote]

Not that he'll never get better at it but it might just be a part of his game that never progresses to the levels of players like Brady or Roethlisberger.

[hammer]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' timestamp='1290993964' post='553454']
Not that he'll never get better at it but it might just be a part of his game that never progresses to the levels of players like Brady or Roethlisberger.
[/quote]

Nah, I think the o-line got off to a shaky start. I cant really lay that at Joes feet. I also think that NOBODY is even close to avoiding sacks like Big Ben. Secondly, I think Brady would have probably been sacked mostly in a game like this. Flacco did a really nice job against the pass rush. And once the o-line settled down a bit, Joe began to pick them apart with accurate passes. IMO.

[True]

I would like to see Joe more in shotgun formation if the OLine has trouble with pass protection. Not only does it give him an extra second or two to get a pass out, but he played in it mostly during college and excelled quite well.

[cursona pirate]

I love this post!!!! Ah!
[quote name='hammer' timestamp='1290993149' post='553430']
[b]I made this post yesterday, prior to todays game against Tampa Bay: [/b]

What Joe has done to this point is nothing short of remarkable. He came in as a rookie, with a rookie head coach and an exotic OC. Remember;

1. he wasnt even slated to start for a couple of years, but Troy Smith got sick and Flacco was forced onto the field.

2. he came onto a extremely talented, aging and disgruntled locker room, dominated by all pro defensive vets. Seasoned defensive vets often see rookie QBs as responsible for shortening their careers B/C offensive ineptitude keeps them on the field too long. This is what divided the locker room about Boller and Billick.

3. the offense had no sense of identity and no record of success to build upon prior to his arrival.

4. the team record was 5-11 the previous year and he was a key part of improving to 11-5 his first year and 9-7 his second.

5. the team jumped from #24 in total offense to #11 in his first year and #9 in his second.

6. the team scoring improved by over 100 points the first year he started (275-385).

7. the team has made the playoffs in each year Joe has been the starting QB.

8. he has become accepted as one of the respected team leaders (ie Pittburgh game, standing up to Mason).

9. he has improved his personal stats each year and now is one of the top QBs in the league.

I could rally go on and on (opp! did I already do that?) Lol. But Joe has a really strong record of accomplishment.

As for Cam. He has handled Joe with the skill and precision that his track record suggests. There are a whole lot of reasons that you just can't give a young QB the keys to the Ferrari too soon. If the QB doesn't succeed when driving alone, the vets are gonna kill the coach for it. Remember, this is a players league, not the coaches. Cam is extending the roap at the right pace and by the end of the season (if Joe continues his consistency) I believe Cam just throws him they keys rather than riding shotgun.

Joe is right on track to becoming an elite QB and his success early in his career stands up to any QB who has ever played the game.

No. Joe has not quite reached the elite level just yet, but he has shown a progression which suggests he eventually will.

[b]Now, after todays game I can say this:[/b]

Last week I saw Joe add [b]"accuracy"[/b] to his growing list of accolades. Today, I am adding [b]"consistency." [/b]Joe is fast developing and he is getting really close to being universally recognized as an elite QB.

The last hurdle for Joe is [b]"big game dominance." [/b] If he is able to post the same kind of consistent numbers against Pittsburgh next week (on National TV), I will readily accept that Joe has reached elite status. At some point he is going to have to shine on a big stage before he acn achieve the [b]rarified air of elitism. IMO.[/b]
[/quote]

[RivenHale]

Yeah, that interception kind of worried me, because even I could tell that Housh was covered. But after that, Joe really settled down and reminded us all that he's pretty freaking awesome.

[hammer]

[quote name='True' timestamp='1290994926' post='553481']
I would like to see Joe more in shotgun formation if the OLine has trouble with pass protection. Not only does it give him an extra second or two to get a pass out, but he played in it mostly during college and excelled quite well.
[/quote]

I really dont have the stats to prove it, but that is exactly what I think I saw happen. Joe got a split second more time and he began to execute. Honestly, I think Joe was very impressive today. He has become the leader of that team. It isclear that the guys are looking to Joe to win the game. Thats no small feat on a team of accomplished veterans.

[Mick0311]

[quote name='hammer' timestamp='1290993817' post='553450']
When you consider his [b]"entire body of work"[/b] can you at least [b]"consider"[/b] that you might be nit-picing?"
[/quote]


I'm not sure about that. This has been my biggest gripe with him so far, and I noticed it a while back. I expected it in the beginning, but he should be improving in this area. Trust me, I love me some Flacco, but it is frustrating. Its not just his pocket awareness, but things like not just throwing it deep when a defender jumps. Its not a career ender, but I hope he gets better in that regard.

[hammer]

[quote name='Mick0311' timestamp='1290995594' post='553503']
I'm not sure about that. This has been my biggest gripe with him so far, and I noticed it a while back. I expected it in the beginning, but he should be improving in this area. Trust me, I love me some Flacco, but it is frustrating. Its not just his pocket awareness, but things like not just throwing it deep when a defender jumps. Its not a career ender, but I hope he gets better in that regard.
[/quote]

Ok. Now I see what you are talking about. However, you have do decide what are you comparing him to? Compared to all NFL qb play, Joe is stacking up very well. No, over the last 8 games or so, he has even been above average.

I agree, it is not just a matter of stats. It's actually not just wins and losses either. But what you are measuring him to (I think) is other NFL good qb's. And I still say, if you really watch todays standard. Joe is now one of the best.

I understand that you are making an isolated argument, unrelated to his whole body of work, but you should, in the end, recognize the progress he has made. Otherwise, people might think you just hate Flacco. That would be an unfortunate development.

[flynismo]

,[quote name='Mick0311' timestamp='1290995594' post='553503']<br />I'm not sure about that.  This has been my biggest gripe with him so far, and I noticed it a while back.  I expected it in the beginning, but he should be improving in this area.  Trust me, I love me some Flacco, but it is frustrating.  Its not just his pocket awareness, but things like not just throwing it deep when a defender jumps.  Its not a career ender, but I hope he gets better in that regard.<br />[/quote]


i agree to an extent that his pocket awareness needs to improve. It will come, I have no doubt at all about that.

But I have to disagree with the people who think Flacco doesn't do a good job avoiding sacks. I think that he generally does a pretty good job, sometimes excellent, at avoiding the rush.
In the game thread, people were saying that he gets sacked because he holds the ball too long, and because he doesn't know when to throw the ball away.
As I said there, thats on Cam. You cant ask Joe to throw into coverage just to avoid a sack, and you cant ask him to constantly throw the ball away before the play has developed -- and thats why it is on Cam. He should be calling quick passes so that Joe has someone to get rid of the ball quickly to when he sees our OL getting tossed around.,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

[hammer]

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1290997809' post='553545']
,


i agree to an extent that his pocket awareness needs to improve. It will come, I have no doubt at all about that.

But I have to disagree with the people who think Flacco doesn't do a good job avoiding sacks. I think that he generally does a pretty good job, sometimes excellent, at avoiding the rush.
In the game thread, people were saying that he gets sacked because he holds the ball too long, and because he doesn't know when to throw the ball away.
As I said there, thats on Cam. You cant ask Joe to throw into coverage just to avoid a sack, and you cant ask him to constantly throw the ball away before the play has developed -- and thats why it is on Cam. He should be calling quick passes so that Joe has someone to get rid of the ball quickly to when he sees our OL getting tossed around.,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
[/quote]

Fly, holding the ball really has nothing to do with the OC. Why would Cam ask Joe to throw the ball into coverage just to avoid a sack? That makes no sense. And yes, you really do have to throw the ball away consistently to avoid a sack (if that is your only option).

What I so agree with is that when the OL is getting tossed around, thats when talent surfaces. Joe did a great Job today of showing the talent to improvise until the line gave him enough tome to execute his reads.

Now, I believe the real issue used to be Joe had trouble going from the first read to the 4th read (checkoff to Rice). That means the 2nd, 3rd and 4th were ignored through panic. But he is improving in that area too.

There is a pre-determined cost for progression through all of the reads..... sacks. I think this is the best game I have seen of the offensive continuity. Joe did a good job with a shakey oline.

[flynismo]

,[quote name='hammer' timestamp='1290998885' post='553558']<br />Fly, holding the ball really has nothing to do with the OC.  Why would Cam ask Joe to throw the ball into coverage just to avoid a sack?  That makes no sense.  And yes, you really do have to throw the ball away consistently to avoid a sack (if that is your only option).<br /><br />What I so agree with is that when the OL is getting tossed around, thats when talent surfaces.  Joe did a great Job today of showing the talent to improvise until the line gave him enough tome to execute his reads.<br /><br />Now, I believe the real issue used to be Joe had trouble going from the first read to the 4th read (checkoff to Rice).  That means the 2nd, 3rd and 4th were ignored through panic.  But he is improving in that area too.<br /><br />There is a pre-determined cost for progression through all of the reads..... sacks.  I think this is the best game I have seen of the offensive continuity.  Joe did a good job with a shakey oline.<br />[/quote]

my point was, if its getting to the point where Flacco is constantly getting pressured, the playcalling needs to change. Why keep putting our offense in the situation where they have to decide between throwing it away or trying to extend the play as long as possible when all you have to do is use the blitz against the defense? Is it asking too much of Cam to run a screen to Boldin or a slant or something along those lines when our OL shows they cant be relied on? Throwing the ball away when you're not in the redzone should not be your only option with any amount of frequency.,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

[hammer]

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1291000278' post='553583']
,

my point was, if its getting to the point where Flacco is constantly getting pressured, the playcalling needs to change. Why keep putting our offense in the situation where they have to decide between throwing it away or trying to extend the play as long as possible when all you have to do is use the blitz against the defense? Is it asking too much of Cam to run a screen to Boldin or a slant or something along those lines when our OL shows they cant be relied on? Throwing the ball away when you're not in the redzone should not be your only option with any amount of frequency.,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
[/quote]

My sense is that the playcalling DID change. The oline started off shaky and the Ravens immediately went to the "hurry up." They then subtely went to the "shot-gun" and Flacco started to get a split second more time to pick the defense apart. I thought the Ravens did a great job today of making adjustments on offense.

The injuries were a factor too. Oher got hurt and the adjustments Cam made were imppresive. I actually think that Cousins actually did a great job in run blocking during crunchtime. Why are we not talking about this kind of stuff?

[RoflDogs]

Oh also, did u guys notice that we started sucking when we went away from the no huddle?

[Ravensfan23]

26-36 365 3TDs 1INT 72% that's what Flacco's numbers without the blown call on the screen. I think Joe played really well today, be had control over himself and the offense, he did a great job of spreading the ball around and took advantage of what the defense gave him. Losing Oher and McClain forced this offense to deviate away from the game plan a bit, but I think both he and Cam did a real good job of adjusting.

What I really enjoyed about Joe's performance and what I though spoke the loudest was how he handled the Mason situation. Now I don't believe for one minute that Flacco force feed Mason, but I do believe that Flacco took advantage of an opportunity to throw water on a potentially flammable situation. Joe just took what the defense gave him and got the ball to Mason early and often. If Mason doesn't record a catch in this game the incident is alive in the media for at least one more week. However by Flacco getting Mason involved early and often, a potential distraction for a division leading playoff team is averted. That shows great leadership from Flacco IMO. That's something that you probably won't hear in the media, but Flacco took another step closer to making the Baltimore Ravens his team. With or without Ray Lewis and that is pretty impressive.