What Has Happened To Our Run Defense?

[Hjulmann]

we wouldn't have one of, if not the best defense in the NFL if we didn't have consistency.

[baltravens]

[quote name='Hjulmann' timestamp='1290370112' post='546592']
we wouldn't have one of, if not the best defense in the NFL if we didn't have consistency.
[/quote]
...full of double negatives, could you clean it up a bit? ...hard to follow.

[hammer]

The real problem with the run defense has to do with a largely ineffective front seven, not the safety. Obviously Ozzie has to forget this stategy of signing undrafted free agent LBs and ppretending they are NFL quality.

If you are going to play a 3-4, then the D-linemen have to be im-movable and the LBs have to be fast and physical. The Ravens front seven don't have either of those qualities.

This d-line rarely gets any penetration (outside of Ngata). Kelly Greg is consistently driven onto the ground or mauled 5 yards down the field. The young lbs, run into the wash instead of filling the holes.

When our secondary is making (or missing) a lot of tackles, then the indictment of the front seven becomes self evident. Thats why they are called secondary defensemen, not front seven. Their first priority is to defend the pass.

Yes, the secondary DOES miss a lot of tackles, they have horrible tackling technique (diving at ankles), and they are generally too small and soft.

Honestly, this is just not a talented defense. Ozzie really got away with a single minded investment in the offense over the last few years, but this year we are getting exposed. Its not Mattison. Changing the schemes won't help. We need to restock the players.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='hammer' timestamp='1290370820' post='546649']
The real problem with the run defense has to do with a largely ineffective front seven, not the safety. Obviously Ozzie has to forget this stategy of signing undrafted free agent LBs and ppretending they are NFL quality.

If you are going to play a 3-4, then the D-linemen have to be im-movable and the LBs have to be fast and physical. The Ravens front seven don't have either of those qualities.

This d-line rarely gets any penetration (outside of Ngata). Kelly Greg is consistently driven onto the ground or mauled 5 yards down the field. The young lbs, run into the wash instead of filling the holes.

When our secondary is making (or missing) a lot of tackles, then the indictment of the front seven becomes self evident. Thats why they are called secondary defensemen, not front seven. Their first priority is to defend the pass.

Yes, the secondary DOES miss a lot of tackles, they have horrible tackling technique (diving at ankles), and they are generally too small and soft.

Honestly, this is just not a talented defense. Ozzie really got away with a single minded investment in the offense over the last few years, but this year we are getting exposed. Its not Mattison. Changing the schemes won't help. We need to restock the players.
[/quote]

The good new is, with most of the o-line set, Joe, Rice, Q and the young tight ends in place, Ozzie can focus mostly on the D in the coming years.

[XxSizzleXx]

Have to admit Landry played exceptional today when he was playing in the box.

[JohnnyBoy8102]

McClain is not very good at the Jack spot next to Ray. Today was another example of that.

[Shammy]

[quote name='hammer' timestamp='1290370820' post='546649']
The real problem with the run defense has to do with a largely ineffective front seven, not the safety. Obviously Ozzie has to forget this stategy of signing undrafted free agent LBs and ppretending they are NFL quality.

If you are going to play a 3-4, then the D-linemen have to be im-movable and the LBs have to be fast and physical. The Ravens front seven don't have either of those qualities.

This d-line rarely gets any penetration (outside of Ngata). Kelly Greg is consistently driven onto the ground or mauled 5 yards down the field. The young lbs, run into the wash instead of filling the holes.

When our secondary is making (or missing) a lot of tackles, then the indictment of the front seven becomes self evident. Thats why they are called secondary defensemen, not front seven. Their first priority is to defend the pass.

Yes, the secondary DOES miss a lot of tackles, they have horrible tackling technique (diving at ankles), and they are generally too small and soft.

Honestly, this is just not a talented defense. Ozzie really got away with a single minded investment in the offense over the last few years, but this year we are getting exposed. Its not Mattison. Changing the schemes won't help. We need to restock the players.
[/quote]

im not sure if we even play a true 3-4 and i think that wouldnt help because as you said nobody is immovable even ngata as good as he is he cant do it all .. simply just comes down to execution

[hammer]

[quote name='Shammy' timestamp='1290396759' post='547577']
im not sure if we even play a true 3-4 and i think that wouldnt help because as you said nobody is immovable even ngata as good as he is he cant do it all .. simply just comes down to execution
[/quote]

True, Suggs and JJ are "hybrid" down linemen/LBs. So you end up with either an undersized - or not-athletic enough front seven.

[AlaskanRavensFan]

Part of the problem is that we play much less with 8 in the box. This is might be to protect our secondary, or just a choice by Mattison.

Cody was getting cut on the two big runs plays I noticed today. I'm not sure why he wasn't engaged with anyone, because if he was it would have been a chop block. So, probably the guard that was in front of him pulled and then he got cut by the center. In any case it was not a terribly impressive showing as far as run defense goes.

It seems at times as if our strategy this year is to invite the run since our secondary is still finding it's legs. We'd rather give up a run play here or there than get torched deep. Of course we did both today, so that philosophy may need to be reevaluated.

[XxSizzleXx]

That big 50 yard run actually made me laugh at the time because like you said Cody was cut big time. He sure showed this game that he does play too high at times. Gregg also got dominated a few times again this week, I have a feeling this is his last year.

[Shammy]

[quote name='hammer' timestamp='1290397731' post='547610']
True, Suggs and JJ are "hybrid" down linemen/LBs. So you end up with either an undersized - or not-athletic enough front seven.
[/quote]

yea seems like those guys play more of a lineman postion than anything .. hopefully they get things together tho i have faith .. its crazy how a 3rd stringer ran so great .. could only imagine what a healthy J.Stew and williams combo could have done

[Ed_Reed20]

Like Mike Preston just said on the radio, he may not be the answer, but I doubt Ellerbe could perform worse than Jameel is right now.

[ghost1986]

I'd really like to see Ellerbe in. McClain did have on nice stop in the backfield yesterday, but Ellerbe's more explosive and also got the pick against the Rams in pre-season. I do think this will be Kelly Gregg's last year. I wish we could get another duo like Adams and Siragusa. If we had two twin towers like that along with Redding, JJ and Sizzle, we'd dominate. I don't know though. I think the front seven did fairly well yesterday with the exception of a few big runs.

[TSizzle00]

I think its time to draft an ILB high in the draft.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='TSizzle00' timestamp='1290460180' post='548165']
I think its time to draft an ILB high in the draft.
[/quote]

I don't think they need to draft one early but they definitely need to scout well and draft a player with size and physicality.

[size="1"]Like Mario Harvey....[/size]

[Jamal]

[quote name='TSizzle00' timestamp='1290460180' post='548165']
I think its time to draft an ILB high in the draft.
[/quote]
I would agree based on how bad we are in the position, but there really is no one worthy of an early pick this year unfortunately...

[Bltravens]

We need to clone Ray, and thats all there is to it.

[ravensfan160]

[quote name='JohnnyBoy8102' timestamp='1290388487' post='547375']
McClain is not very good at the Jack spot next to Ray. Today was another example of that.
[/quote]
You are right. He's missing assignments. On the 45 yard run McClain overpursued and left a huge gap on our line. Ellerbe isn't perfect either but at least he's shown flashes of playmaking ability. McClain might as well be invisible out there.

I also noticed that on a lot of the long runs the Panthers o-line was successfully blocking low on Cody and taking him out of the play entirely with only one lineman. It happend twice for sure. Too easy.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='Bltravens' timestamp='1290462797' post='548226']
We need to clone Ray, and thats all there is to it.
[/quote]

An ILB duo something like this would be pretty sweet:

[img]http://static.nfl.com/static/content/catch_all/nfl_image/ray-lewis-250x250.jpg[/img][img]http://www.ravensgab.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/ray-lewis-keller-crush-rich-kanejpg-48be46f470ff1456_large.jpg[/img]

[1/28/01]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' timestamp='1290463545' post='548236']
An ILB duo something like this would be pretty sweet:

[img]http://static.nfl.com/static/content/catch_all/nfl_image/ray-lewis-250x250.jpg[/img][img]http://www.ravensgab.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/ray-lewis-keller-crush-rich-kanejpg-48be46f470ff1456_large.jpg[/img]
[/quote]
ha, the pads they wore back in the day are hilarious!

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='1/28/01' timestamp='1290464433' post='548249']
ha, the pads they wore back in the day are hilarious!
[/quote]

I really like them. The white uniforms were sweet too:

[img]http://sportsx.com/images/raylewisrookiecard.jpg[/img]

Staying on topic...it's the players.

[omar586]

people we're 7-3 not 3-7, yes the run d is a problem, mattison can correct it, we need to play more 3-4 w/ cody, nghata, redding upfront, jj, lewis, ellerbe, suggs, let suggs chose where to blitz or pressure the qb from, basically moving him around seems affective

[Ravens Lover]

[quote name='ravensdfan' timestamp='1290032739' post='543779']
We put Cody in and held Turner to what? 39 yds? What more do you want?
[/quote]

Although he didn't play well yesterday Cody has got to start over Gregg he just doesn't have it anymore

[Thepurplehaze]

Anyone watch Suggs and landry on the run d yesterday? Beast. Minus ngata our lineman are getting blocked too easily.

[omar586]

------------------divens-nhata-cody---------------
---------jj-----lewis------ellerbe------suggs-----
webb---------------------------------------------wilson
---------haruki--------------------reed-----------

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='omar586' timestamp='1290479487' post='548559']
------------------[b]divens[/b]-nhata-cody---------------
---------jj-----lewis------ellerbe------suggs-----
webb---------------------------------------------wilson
---------[b]haruki[/b]--------------------reed-----------
[/quote]

You want a guy whose been active for two games all season and recorded no stats to start?

Landry's inconsistent tackling and average play in pass coverage are frustrating at times but he hasn't done anything to lose his job yet in my opinion.

EDIT: I just noticed you have Ngata at NT even though he's more athletic and weighs less than Cody.

[Bltravens]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' timestamp='1290480128' post='548574']
You want a guy whose been active for two games all season and recorded no stats to start?

Landry's inconsistent tackling and average play in pass coverage are frustrating at times but he hasn't done anything to lose his job yet in my opinion.

EDIT: I just noticed you have Ngata at NT even though he's more athletic and weighs less than Cody.
[/quote]
As bad as Redding has been, that Dline would get zero pocket push and would actually somehow be worse than what we have now. Cody is a through and through NT, he is useless anywhere else because of his limitations in athletic ability. Landry had his best game of the year because Mattison let him attack the LOS like he does best.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='Bltravens' timestamp='1290485862' post='548730']
As bad as Redding has been, that Dline would get zero pocket push and would actually somehow be worse than what we have now. Cody is a through and through NT, he is useless anywhere else because of his limitations in athletic ability. Landry had his best game of the year because Mattison let him attack the LOS like he does best.
[/quote]

Agreed on all counts.

[AlaskanRavensFan]

I think that Harbs addressed the issues pretty well in his press conference today. He mentioned that Cody cannot allow himself to be cut and that players cannot get sit behind blocks (both McClain and Gooden). That's what happened on the big runs. (I saw it for myself watching the game again today). Those are mistakes that young players make sometimes. It's clear though that Harb's tolerance for those types of mistakes is low. It's basic gap integrity stuff and it definitely does need to be cleaned up, but it's not a justification for a change in who starts or in the scheme we run.

[XxSizzleXx]

Mattison must have heard me complaining about dropping Landry into the box, he played well on Sunday. Suggs was one of our best defenders as well