MERGED: Mattison Complaint Threads

[PSG_Mud]

Guys this debate is worthless, its pointless to try an argue against the facts. Mattison is vanilla as they come, nothing special everyone knows this. So when someone can exploit that we call foul.

Nothing new here, its expected... I hope... carry on.

[wayne]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' timestamp='1289551237' post='538199']
Bart was playing better football than McClain, Ellerbe and Gooden in '08. Pryce was still getting pressure, unlike Redding and the other d-lineman on the team right now. Samari played in 10 games that year but played better football than any CB has this season. In addition, less heralded players like Edwards and Bannan have also left and most importantly guys like Ray, J.J. and Ed have aged/dealt with injuries.

Like I said before, since Rex left, what position has seen the starter either improve as a player or been upgraded? Ngata has developed into a top defensive player in this league and Suggs, while he's played well this year, was overweight and not explosive at all last year. Those two aside, no position has gotten better whether it be because of injury or simply age.

And as great as Rex's schemes were in '08, they got throttled by the Colts(hasn't happened to Mattison) and the Giants ran for like 300 yards against them(we've seen that happen to the Ravens more and more due to the reasons I stated before).
[/quote]
Who doesn't Peyton throttle and the Giants game was one game, only time a team has ran like that on us with Rex as Coordinator.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='wayne' timestamp='1289551613' post='538201']
Who doesn't Peyton throttle and the Giants game was one game, only time a team has ran like that on us with Rex as Coordinator.
[/quote]

I noticed you chose not to address the points I made about key players leaving or your terrible math. Fair enough...

Peyton didn't light up the Ravens in either of the games they played last year.

But why did the Giants destroy the Ravens that day? I thought Rex's schemes were legit?

[flynismo]

[quote name='noy' timestamp='1289550248' post='538187']<br />But when we do blitz, it doesn't look <i>anything </i>like the Ravens of old. Everybody is standing in the same spot, showing one fake step or maybe two. It has nowhere near the feel of not knowing who's  blitzing, and if we can see that from up top then I think the QB is going to have an easier time deciphering our defense. I started watching the Ravens in 2006, which was a fantastic year to start. Everyone was moving, people were standing up, moving left to right, back and forward. It was crazy, seeing how many QBs had to call a timeout because they had no idea what the hell was going on. <br /><br />What do I see now? A vanilla defense, &quot;four man rush&quot; defense, and when they do blitz, there is no inconsistency, no surprise factor. You cannot tell me that these types of characteristics require a special &quot;skill&quot; that our old players had. That's crap. Some of our players may be average, but not giving them help by teaching them the art of &quot;chaos&quot; is plain wrong. It's what the defense has been known for, and Mattison has let that pride and distinguished attitude follow Rex to New York. As of right now, this very moment, the &quot;Ravens&quot; style of defense is in New York and nowhere else. Yeah they have better players, but I'm mad that Mattison isn't even trying it. He's brought this college disciplinary defense to Baltimore, and I ****** hate it.<br />[/quote]


See, this is one of the few reasonable criticisms of Mattison. Take notes, Mattison haters!

I agree that Mattison could better disguise the rush, but it has absolutely nothing to do with shuffling people around. And by the way, people shifting all over the place is one of the reasons we used to get burnt for big plays so often under Ryan, but I digress.
Let's break it down to simple football strategy.. Football 101, if you will.

What is the one of the main purposes behind a 3-4 front? If you said, 'To better disguise where the rush is coming from', you are correct! We all (should) already know that. But why is that? Why does it disguise the blitz better? This is a little less obvious, but still fairly basic. The DL are there for one reason only - to eat up blockers. That's it. That means it is up to the LB to apply the pressure. So you have four linebackers. Who's blitzing? The two guys just standing there on the edges? The ILB who is crouching over the DT's shoulder? Simple...you dont know. Movement is not needed to create confusion. The very formation itself is what creates the confusion, because the blitz could literally be coming from anywhere, or nowhere at all, unlike a 4-3 defense where you already know that more often than not, the DE's and either a LB or safety is coming in.
Ryan's movement of players was most effective when run out of a 46, not when we had three linemen. But as I alluded to earlier, that had it's drawbacks. It worked out of a 46 because that meant coverage was getting bumped right before the snap, and after the QB already made his pre-snap reads, so that meant the QB had little time to adjust. However, it also meant that defensive players were assigned poor matchups, sometimes players had to give their assignments more space because they were dropping into a zone from god knows where, and sometimes miscommunication and missed assignments resulted as a by-product of 'organized chaos'. One thing you can say about Matty's defense is that we rarely see guys blowing their assignments or miscommunicating, and this is why.
So be careful what you wish for...

[wayne]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' timestamp='1289551893' post='538203']
I noticed you chose not to address the points I made about key players leaving or your terrible math. Fair enough...

Peyton didn't light up the Ravens in either of the games they played last year.

But why did the Giants destroy the Ravens that day? I thought Rex's schemes were legit?
[/quote]
I addressed that, 3 key guys leave and now we can't run that scheme anymore , makes alot of sense ( Yea, mymath is very terrible and please dont try to add players like Leonhard and Bannan to the equation, they are very replacable and they have been replaced ) . You are holding on to one game,LOL. Several games and you would have a point but one game,LOL. Peyton and Co. won at the end of the day so the same results , matters not rather Peyton threw for 100 yds or 400, loss is a loss.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='wayne' timestamp='1289553854' post='538213']
I addressed that, 3 key guys leave and now we can't run that scheme anymore , makes alot of sense ( Yea, mymath is very terrible and please dont try to add players like Leonhard and Bannan to the equation, they are very replacable and they have been replaced ) . You are holding on to one game,LOL. Several games and you would have a point but one game,LOL. Peyton and Co. won at the end of the day so the same results , matters not rather Peyton threw for 100 yds or 400, loss is a loss.
[/quote]

Where did I mention Leonhard? How about actually reading my post?

I brought up Edwards and Bannan, both of whom were better run stuffers in '08 and '09 than Redding and Gregg are right now and could occasioanly get some penetration rushing the QB. And again, you continue to ignore that not only did three very good players leave in addition to two solid ones, four players in Ray, Ed, Gregg and J.J. have GOTTEN OLDER.

I'm not harping onto one game. I'm simply pointing out Rex's schemes weren't invincible as you seem to believe they are.

The outcome of those Indy wasn't the point. You rhetorically asked who hasn't Peyton carved up and I brought up two instances where Manning didn't have a big game and look who was the DC--Mattison.

The one game I remember Rex's D containing Peyton was in the '07 play-off game where, surprise, the D was arguably the second-most talented unit after the SB team.

[flynismo]

[color="#192B40"][font="Helvetica, sans-serif"][size="2"]Okay, so let me see if I got this straight.[/size][/font][/color]
[color="#192B40"][font="Helvetica, sans-serif"] [/font][/color]
[color="#192B40"][font="Helvetica, sans-serif"][size="2"]The problem with our defense is it's scheme.[/size][/font][/color]
[color="#192B40"][font="Helvetica, sans-serif"] [/font][/color]
[color="#192B40"][font="Helvetica, sans-serif"][size="2"]To fix it, we need to:[/size][/font][/color]
[font="Helvetica, sans-serif"][size="3"][color="#192B40"][size=2]
[/size][/color][/size][/font][color="#192B40"][font="Helvetica, sans-serif"][size="2"]1. Play press coverage with Carr, Webb, Fabian and Wilson[/size][/font][/color]
[color="#192B40"][font="Helvetica, sans-serif"][size="2"]2. stop playing man to man so much, because our DBs suck (I guess we can invent the zone press scheme)[/size][/font][/color]
[color="#192B40"][font="Helvetica, sans-serif"][size="2"]3. play more man coverage, because the zone gives too much cushion[/size][/font][/color]
[color="#192B40"][font="Helvetica, sans-serif"][size="2"]4. rush 7 men and double all their recievers[/size][/font][/color]
[color="#192B40"][font="Helvetica, sans-serif"][size="2"]5. move people around, 3-4 defenses are so predictable and vanilla if they aren't running around like chickens with their heads cut off[/size][/font][/color]
[color="#192B40"][font="Helvetica, sans-serif"][size="2"]6. Stop only sending 4 man blitzes, send 6 or seven instead[/size][/font][/color]
[color="#192B40"][font="Helvetica, sans-serif"][size="2"]7. stop sending so many 6-7 man rushes, throw in some 4 man rushes[/size][/font][/color]
[color="#192B40"][font="Helvetica, sans-serif"] [/font][/color]
[color="#192B40"][font="Helvetica, sans-serif"][size="2"]did I miss anything?[/size][/font][/color]

[wayne]

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1289556551' post='538219']
[color="#192B40"][font="Helvetica, sans-serif"][size="2"]Okay, so let me see if I got this straight.[/size][/font][/color]
[color="#192B40"][font="Helvetica, sans-serif"] [/font][/color]
[color="#192B40"][font="Helvetica, sans-serif"][size="2"]The problem with our defense is it's scheme.[/size][/font][/color]
[color="#192B40"][font="Helvetica, sans-serif"] [/font][/color]
[color="#192B40"][font="Helvetica, sans-serif"][size="2"]To fix it, we need to:[/size][/font][/color]
[font="Helvetica, sans-serif"][size="3"][color="#192B40"][size=2]
[/size][/color][/size][/font][color="#192B40"][font="Helvetica, sans-serif"][size="2"]1. Play press coverage with Carr, Webb, Fabian and Wilson[/size][/font][/color]
[color="#192B40"][font="Helvetica, sans-serif"][size="2"]2. stop playing man to man so much, because our DBs suck (I guess we can invent the zone press scheme)[/size][/font][/color]
[color="#192B40"][font="Helvetica, sans-serif"][size="2"]3. play more man coverage, because the zone gives too much cushion[/size][/font][/color]
[color="#192B40"][font="Helvetica, sans-serif"][size="2"]4. rush 7 men and double all their recievers[/size][/font][/color]
[color="#192B40"][font="Helvetica, sans-serif"][size="2"]5. move people around, 3-4 defenses are so predictable and vanilla if they aren't running around like chickens with their heads cut off[/size][/font][/color]
[color="#192B40"][font="Helvetica, sans-serif"][size="2"]6. Stop only sending 4 man blitzes, send 6 or seven instead[/size][/font][/color]
[color="#192B40"][font="Helvetica, sans-serif"][size="2"]7. stop sending so many 6-7 man rushes, throw in some 4 man rushes[/size][/font][/color]
[color="#192B40"][font="Helvetica, sans-serif"] [/font][/color]
[color="#192B40"][font="Helvetica, sans-serif"][size="2"]did I miss anything?[/size][/font][/color]
[/quote]
If you and EdReeed stop trying to be smart ******'s and actually took the time to interpret peoples post right and stop twisting things up to how you want them to be, maybe you would get the point of what most in this thread is trying to make. Damn, y'all take offense to people criticising Mattison, he sign a couple of autographs for y'all or what unless y'all related to the man but whats the odds of that,LOL.!

[wayne]

[quote name='PSG_Mud' timestamp='1289551477' post='538200']
Guys this debate is worthless, its pointless to try an argue against the facts. Mattison is vanilla as they come, nothing special everyone knows this. So when someone can exploit that we call foul.

Nothing new here, its expected... I hope... carry on.
[/quote]
Bump........Bump, the truck is about to leave the building , still got a few people missing in action, we will wait a little longer for them b/c the building is about to explode ........Bump...........Bump,LOL

[jj2020]

[quote name='ravensfan160' timestamp='1289539445' post='537771']
I keep thinking back to the Saints/Steelers game last week where the Saints had one health CB the entire game. They were playing with a bunch of safeties in the secondary and not only did they keep bringing the heat but they held up in coverage as well. It just makes me sick that they can do what they did to Ben and we lay an egg like we did tonight.

That game proves the point that scheme by a defensive coordinator can make up for a lack of talent. Therefore, I am finally on the fire Mattison bandwagon.
[/quote]

Put me down for the fire Mattison band wagon too!! Today was just painfull to watch Flacco and the offense did it they won the game I mean they did what they have for so many times failed to do come back and win!!! Now our deffense lost it ! For years all we had was D This team was built on D I know there may never be another Rex Ryan but some body light a fire under these guys a s s do something!!

[darklight1216]

Three man rushes must die!

That is all.

[ChrisC]

If this is the fire mattison group sign me up. It was just sick watching that game last night. I've seen people saying that our personnel aren't as good as they were when Rex was here, and I'll concede that. But if mattison can't find a way to win with what we have, then we should bring in someone who can. Play to the strengths of your players, don't say I run this and this is what we are going to run. Look at the Redskins, shannihan said we are going to play 3-4 because i want to. And it doesn't work because they dont have the personnel for it. That having been said here are the things i just hate watching.

I know they are called deep safties, but 20+ yards deep is just rediculous. We aren't giving up the deep pass very often because of it, I concede that. But its because teams dont need to throw deep that often, if you can get 10 yards consistently from a quick slant or reciever screen why risk the deep throw. And they are picking up those yards because of our corners. Perhaps our corners aren't good enough to play man coverage affectively, but when you see Chris Carr playing 8 yards off the line and he starts back pedaling before the snap, he's effectivesly 10 yards deep before the reciever takes his first step. If its a slant or screen thenhe has to reverse his momentum and haul *** back to the reciever. Carr is running full tilt to close and the reciever just waits and moves out of the way, then has room to run from the line to the 20+ deep safety. I'd say it was just the way carr is playing but you seen all the corners playing that way. They are being coached to play that way.

It doesn't matter how many people you blitz if you can throw that quick out to your recievers. Then they just three and drop into coverage. The two deep safties are pretty much just standing around waiting for routes to develop so its effectively 11 on 9. Three rushers against 6 o-linemen so the QB has all day to throw. Even if they dont take the quick throw they have time to wait for someone to get open. Very few of the third downs the falcons didn't convert on where because of stellar defense, it was usually the reciever dropping a ball that they could easily have caught. Someone earlier said it feels like we're playing prevent D all game, and that's the way I feel also. Like watching the prevent D over and over while watching the steelers march down the field in 5 yard passes over and over again in their two minute drill.

So maybe our personnel aren't as good, and I know you can't turn chicken **** into chicken salad. But if it's not working, you have to fix it. I don't know how, know how isn't my full time job, im not being paid what they are to know how. But I'll bet if you ask Chris Carr if he needs a 10 yard headstart to keep up with his man he'd say no.

[thrash5]

gregg mattison has no clue on how to run a nfl defence he should be unemployed now

[1/28/01]

Awesome new thread.....can't believe no one has started a thread like this yet

[ZRayvenZ]

[quote name='thrash5' timestamp='1289569767' post='538371']
gregg mattison has no clue on how to run a nfl defence he should be caned now
[/quote]

Ok, i know you misspelled that but what the heck, maybe not. I'm not crazy about Mattison either, Man i bet that hurts.

[Guest RBates]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' timestamp='1289541476' post='537935']
Wait, what? Gooden has barely been on the field and not done much, when he has seen the field.

I'll credit the D when they play well because players executed.

You're entitled to your opinions about Mattison not being able to coach a 3-4 but let's look at a successful 3-4 like the Steelers or Packers. To man, how many Ravens players are better than their counterparts on those teams. You can obviously make a case for Suggs, Ray and Ngata. Those three aside, the Ravens have a bunch of average players at the other positions.

I disagree that Rex, Nolan or Lewis would be faring much better with this group but again, you're entitled to your opinions.
[/quote]wow im a little confused are you saying that some of the greatest defensive minds minus Rex of course couldn't do a better job of coaching our defense. Look i like Mattison he seems to be a nice guy. But nice guys don't last in this league especially on defense. His schemes are way to predictable and you wonder why you are losing. Get rid of him or the season is over.

[thrash5]

who is this gregg mattison anyway someone please tell me,and don't say a friend of the family.

[CNC]

WE need to fire Both, How te hell you dont kno what to do with this team, We have serious talent.

[Guest RBates]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' timestamp='1289551237' post='538199']
Bart was playing better football than McClain, Ellerbe and Gooden in '08. Pryce was still getting pressure, unlike Redding and the other d-lineman on the team right now. Samari played in 10 games that year but played better football than any CB has this season. In addition, less heralded players like Edwards and Bannan have also left and most importantly guys like Ray, J.J. and Ed have aged/dealt with injuries.

Like I said before, since Rex left, what position has seen the starter either improve as a player or been upgraded? Ngata has developed into a top defensive player in this league and Suggs, while he's played well this year, was overweight and not explosive at all last year. Those two aside, no position has gotten better whether it be because of injury or simply age.

And as great as Rex's schemes were in '08, they got throttled by the Colts(hasn't happened to Mattison) and the Giants ran for like 300 yards against them(we've seen that happen to the Ravens more and more due to the reasons I stated before).
[/quote]
Can i jump in? I have one side note yes Rex's defense got torched by the Colts .But Mattison D has been torched by lets see. Off hand not looking at stats. Denver, Bills,Falcons, Cleveland and sorry about adding Cleveland without a starting Qb but who can forget what Peyton Hillis did to this D.

[Ravenslifer]

I just want to point out that makes two times, New England and Atlanta, that Mattison's "prevent defense" coughed up a lead at the end of the game this season. That's the difference between 6-3 and 8-1, home-field advantage.

[PuRock]

Break out the pitchfork guys!!!! We going eat some Mattison tonight!

[rlh445]

[quote name='Ravenslifer' timestamp='1289572518' post='538454']
I just want to point out that makes two times, New England and Atlanta, that Mattison's "prevent defense" coughed up a lead at the end of the game this season. That's the difference between 6-3 and 8-1, home-field advantage.
[/quote]


See, if you're going to hate on Mattison, at least watch the games. We didn't play a 'prevent' defense that coughed up the lead..do you even know what that is? The complaints lobbied at Mattison for this game are ironically that we blitzed too heavily but we didn't reach Ryan before he got his throws off. If you're going to go with the trend and bellyache about Mattison, at least know what you're talking about.

[upanddown85]

i have to tell you Mattison,, i used to love to watch our defense, but now i have to let you know our defense under you suck. people used to talk about how good was our defense go 3 and out, but now people talk about how good is other team's QBs. You make a lot QBs look like P.Manning,.if we can go 3and out, then our defense can get so rest and our offense is on the feild and get so points. Do you understand that. Also, YOu make our good defense in to an average defense. we usually seen our defence carry our offense. but now they can't stop any teams. Other thing, i don't know is you or the players. they can't tackle. i usually seen Dawan Landry hit very hard,but now most the player just get on the ground. Last one, i know you name is Mattison, sound like you are very good at math but you are not. you need to kill the QBs, not let the QBs have all day to throw. i hope you know this is NFL not NCAA. i think you need to do some Xs and Os, to find open holes for your player.Cause everytime you try to get to the QB other team stop your player.you better find better holes for you playe. i hope all the Ravens Fans know where is our defense at now, is our defense still in the top 5????/
no disrespect for you Mattison
just my 2cents

[D-Rey]

How many of these threads are going to get started. There are already multiple discussions about Mattison and our defense.

[berad]

[quote name='D-Rey' timestamp='1289574607' post='538526']
How many of these threads are going to get started. There are already multiple discussions about Mattison and our defense.
[/quote]

That's what I'm sayin'!

From what I could see, Mattison called a decent game. Some bad plays, some good plays. Not more offended by him than I usually am

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='wayne' timestamp='1289558414' post='538226']
If you and EdReeed stop trying to be smart ******'s and actually took the time to interpret peoples post right and stop twisting things up to how you want them to be, maybe you would get the point of what most in this thread is trying to make. Damn, y'all take offense to people criticising Mattison, he sign a couple of autographs for y'all or what unless y'all related to the man but whats the odds of that,LOL.!
[/quote]

I'm not being a smart ***, you simply have no way to respond to the points I'm making and and certainly no way of backing up the points you made so you have resorted to name-calling. I defend Mattison because for the criticism he takes from fans like you, I haven't seen single rational alternative to what he's doing. I've noticed a common unsaid belief that "if the scheme is the "right one"(which you cant' even explain to me), it'll beat whatever the opposing team is trying to do". You're in denial that the talent on this D has fallen off but want to criticize me and others for trying to defend a coach.


[quote name='RBates' timestamp='1289570663' post='538393']
wow im a little confused are you saying that some of the greatest defensive minds minus Rex of course couldn't do a better job of coaching our defense. Look i like Mattison he seems to be a nice guy. But nice guys don't last in this league especially on defense. His schemes are way to predictable and you wonder why you are losing. Get rid of him or the season is over.
[/quote]

That's my opinion! Am I not entitled to it? So you want to get rid of Mattison; who do you bring in?

It's posts like this that amuse me. You sound like you have all the answers during your criticism but never provide legitimate solutions or alternatives.

[quote name='RBates' timestamp='1289571358' post='538409']
Can i jump in? I have one side note yes Rex's defense got torched by the Colts .But Mattison D has been torched by lets see. Off hand not looking at stats. Denver, Bills,Falcons, Cleveland and sorry about adding Cleveland without a starting Qb but who can forget what Peyton Hillis did to this D.
[/quote]

We can go back to '05, '07 and the two times in '08 to see game where Rex's defenses were destroyed so what's your point?

But let me ask you, can you name one player that the team has signed or drafted since Mattison took over that has truly made a big impact?

[Ed_Reed20]

Just to reinforce the points I've tried to make, read the first point in The Sun's "Five Things We Learned..." column:http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/sports/ravens/blog/2010/11/five_things_we_learned_in_the_ravens_2621_loss.html

Again, not that Mattison is perfect but read the column and tell me this D has the talent to be dominant.

[rlh445]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' timestamp='1289577905' post='538635']
Just to reinforce the points I've tried to make, read the first point in The Sun's "Five Things We Learned..." column:http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/sports/ravens/blog/2010/11/five_things_we_learned_in_the_ravens_2621_loss.html

Again, not that Mattison is perfect but read the column and tell me this D has the talent to be dominant.
[/quote]

Ha, thank God you're here man. Mattison is certainly not perfect, and it took him almost a year before he and the rest of the defense got comfortable with each other. That said, continually pointing to his schemes (and half the people saying this don't even know what his schemes are, nor do they have any intention of actually finding out) but not providing alternate ones they think would be a better fit for the defense isn't very convincing. A lot of fans just don't want to admit that Rex's schemes were only half the battle, and that the talent he had to work with was the other half. If you took the Ravens defense from 2000 and stuck 'em with Matty, we'd be looking a million times better, period. Saying, 'blitz more!' and then saying, 'stop blitzing!' and 'cover this guy with five guys and rush 12' is just an idiotic way of looking at it and isn't even realistic in the slightest. Overall I think he's been calling some good games this year, and all this bashing is just a result of hindsight being 20/20 and players just not being as talented than in years past. Let it go people..we just aren't as talented on the defensive side of the ball as we used to be, and yet we're still more than competitive.

[CorvusCorax]

1. Mattison got out coached, especially the last drive.

2. Some of the adjustments didn't work

3. Blitzing seems non-effective at times. Teams (QBs) are picking it up.

4. Our defense is just not good against great quarterbacks. This needs to change.

5. I'll say the short week had something to do with it.

6. I want my old defense back.

[JoeCool#5]

Got to give the Falcons coaching staff credit. They came out with a game plan. They were going to have Matt Ryan throw short check downs and throw them often. Matt made a great throw in the corner for his 2nd TD. Not taking anything away from Matt Ryan, but the 1st and 3rd TD, Ryan Leaf could have made those throws facing that blown coverage.
Matt had to throw the ball 10 yards to a wide open RB (think the nearest player was 15 yards from the ball) who make a great individual play to get in the endzone and then to win the game, to a WR who stiffed arm Wilson to get wide open. What we found out yesterday was Matt is goood at hitting the wide open man when he has time in the pocket. Joes touchdown passes were well defended and Flacco drill it in for the score. Unforunately Joe, Mase, Housh and Q cant play corner.