Tsizzle, Me Thinks Not

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='XxSizzleXx' timestamp='1288036914' post='520673']
It's actually getting QUITE annoying. I don't even bother with these threads really anymore.
[/quote]

So am I.

That people can talk about football being the ultimate team game and then single out one player as the reason for a team's lack of production in one area is absurd.

Even the greatest rush LBs in league history like Derrick Thomas and Kevin Greene had good to great supporting casts. Suggs isn't on those players' level in terms of talent or skill and yet people expect All-Pro production despite the obvious lack of talent on this D. I don't get it...

[thewarden86]

Suggs is always a factor when our two teams play. I've never considered him "average."

[purple.n.black]

[quote name='hawkprey' timestamp='1288030389' post='520581']
You know Ozzie sucks when he drafts the same guy twice.
[/quote]
I know you would think he would learn the first time since he was such a bust haha. Maybe I subconsciously put that in there because how god awful of a pick it was.

And @Ed_Reed20 I'm glad we can somewhat agree now lol. I will admit my original wording was not congruent with the point I was actually trying to make. Didn't want to make anyone think I don't love the great Oz.

[Bltravens]

[quote name='thewarden86' timestamp='1288039158' post='520703']
Suggs is always a factor when our two teams play. I've never considered him "average."
[/quote]
Exactly, and he's sacked Brady 3 times in the last 3 games. And Brady hardly ever gets sacked.

[RavensAllTheWay]

My main concern with yesterday's defense was the fact that even when we blitzed, we still generated no pressure. I guess now I know why we sit back most of the time.

What does that mean? It probably means our D line isn't getting it done. Credit to the Bills O line for picking up all of our blitzes including the all outs, but I still think from our perspective it goes back to the guys up front getting outmatched.

Criticize Suggs all you want, but the pass rush always has and always will start with the guys up front. I can't stress it enough.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='Bltravens' timestamp='1288040956' post='520722']
Exactly, and he's sacked Brady 3 times in the last 3 games. And Brady hardly ever gets sacked.
[/quote]

And all three sacks were individual efforts by him.

On another teams, you see an interior push push force QBs out of the pocket where either rush LBs or DEs collect the sack. How often does that happen with the Ravens?

[Alexir]

Do you think that our defense will eventually change to a 4-3 defense. Not this season but in the future. I would actually think that would be better for Suggs as he plays the SAM position. But then we have to draft more personnell. Ugh, I dunno what it is. Rex seemed to get the pass rush going, I just think maybe the 3-4 isn't suitable for Mattison.

[purple.n.black]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' timestamp='1288042701' post='520743']
And all three sacks were individual efforts by him.

On another teams, you see an interior push push force QBs out of the pocket where either rush LBs or DEs collect the sack. How often does that happen with the Ravens?
[/quote]
Yeah I was just thinking earlier about how I always see that with other teams. NEVER with us. Not anymore at least. IDK what it is but it is not working. Maybe if we had Gregg next to Cody one of them could feast off the other one's ability to eat blockers. Gregg has been able to get pressure on the less elusive QBs. He certainly does not stop chasing down someone no matter how fast they are. I love seeing him chasing RBs although he hardly gets there first lol

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='Alexir' timestamp='1288042879' post='520749']
Do you think that our defense will eventually change to a 4-3 defense. Not this season but in the future. I would actually think that would be better for Suggs as he plays the SAM position. But then we have to draft more personnell. Ugh, I dunno what it is. [b]Rex seemed to get the pass rush going, I just think maybe the 3-4 isn't suitable for Mattison.[/b]
[/quote]

Rex brought a lot of blitzes and at times, was able to get pressure with just four(mainly in 2006) when McAlister and Samari were in the defensive back-field. When the talent at CB dropped, the D got worked.

Mattison is in tough position because not only are there no above average pass rushers on this team not named Suggs, the LBs and DBs aren't very good in coverage either.


[quote name='purple.n.black' timestamp='1288043012' post='520750']
Yeah I was just thinking earlier about how I always see that with other teams. NEVER with us. Not anymore at least. IDK what it is but it is not working. Maybe if we had Gregg next to Cody one of them could feast off the other one's ability to eat blockers. Gregg has been able to get pressure on the less elusive QBs. He certainly does not stop chasing down someone no matter how fast they are. I love seeing him chasing RBs although he hardly gets there first lol
[/quote]

I think it's simply a lack of talent. It's tough to admit but that's the case right now. Mattison conservatism doesn't help either.

Yeah, I burst out laughing whenever Gregg's arms start flailing when he's in pursuit.

[Bltravens]

[quote name='Alexir' timestamp='1288042879' post='520749']
Do you think that our defense will eventually change to a 4-3 defense. Not this season but in the future. I would actually think that would be better for Suggs as he plays the SAM position. But then we have to draft more personnell. Ugh, I dunno what it is. Rex seemed to get the pass rush going, I just think maybe the 3-4 isn't suitable for Mattison.
[/quote]
Yes I do when Ray retires. Ellerbe is gonna slide to the Mike, Gooden the Will, and McClain the Sam. This will keep blocks off Gooden and he wont have to wade through the mess that is rush defense in a 3-4, and thus will keep him healthy. Ellerbe is the true blue MLB and the only one of the 3 with a nose for the ball,McClain is the biggest and strongest of the 3.

[Clutch Ravens]

Stats tell a fraction of the story and even less on defense.

You actually have to WATCH what defensive players are doing during the game and have a decent idea of what they're meant to be doing before you can effectively evaluate ANY player.

Saying "so and so" is average because they don't have stats is utter nonsense.

In Suggs' case I'd say that his WEAKNESS is rushing the passer, and that's a massive compliment. As Flynismo said, Suggs is great against the run and very effective when asked to drop back into coverage. Honestly, Suggs is so good at everything, he'd be a brilliant 4-3 OLB aswell as 4-3 DE and 3-4 OLB.

I don't want to see any more misinformed/uninformed threads like this one.

[purple.n.black]

We definitely are built to stop the run if you look around. If we just had that one guy that can shut down whoever the whole game, it would make it so much easier on our receivers. Carr does a pretty darn good job shutting down #2 and 3 receivers. We may have someone step up though Carr, Wilson, Webb by the end of the season who can shut down people. It will make it easier on all of the defense.

[purple.n.black]

And I like how you admit it is a lack of talent. We do have a very talented defense obviously. But many of them lack the talent in shedding blockers to get sacks. It is tough for many people to admit this team lacks talent anywhere lol.

[Jamal]

[quote name='Clutch Ravens' timestamp='1288045584' post='520797']
Stats tell a fraction of the story and even less on defense.

You actually have to WATCH what defensive players are doing during the game and have a decent idea of what they're meant to be doing before you can effectively evaluate ANY player.

Saying "so and so" is average because they don't have stats is utter nonsense.

In Suggs' case I'd say that his WEAKNESS is rushing the passer, and that's a massive compliment. As Flynismo said, Suggs is great against the run and very effective when asked to drop back into coverage. Honestly, Suggs is so good at everything, he'd be a brilliant 4-3 OLB aswell as 4-3 DE and 3-4 OLB.

I don't want to see any more misinformed/uninformed threads like this one.
[/quote]
[IMG]http://i54.tinypic.com/qnti5l.gif[/IMG]

[flynismo]

Yeah, I agree, I think it is pretty clear that Ngata aside, the defensive line is the reason for our lack of a rush.And Mattison has said again and again that he will focus on getting pressure from our DL, so that it frees guys like suggs and ray to handle other assignments.It's why I'm not a fan of guys like Redding (and now Gregg) starting for us, and really disappointed about Kruger... Redding and Gregg are decent players and all, but are far from capable of doing what we need them to do.Hopefully a blue chip DE falls to us in the draft next year.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1288050538' post='520897']
Yeah, I agree, I think it is pretty clear that Ngata aside, the defensive line is the reason for our lack of a rush.And Mattison has said again and again that he will focus on getting pressure from our DL, so that it frees guys like suggs and ray to handle other assignments.It's why I'm not a fan of guys like Redding (and now Gregg) starting for us, and really disappointed about Kruger... Redding and Gregg are decent players and all, but are far from capable of doing what we need them to do.[b]Hopefully a blue chip DE falls to us in the draft next year.[/b]
[/quote]

This is the man I want- highlights are from '09:

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-A6SlfWKPo[/media]

[Bltravens]

[quote name='Clutch Ravens' timestamp='1288045584' post='520797']
Stats tell a fraction of the story and even less on defense.

You actually have to WATCH what defensive players are doing during the game and have a decent idea of what they're meant to be doing before you can effectively evaluate ANY player.

Saying "so and so" is average because they don't have stats is utter nonsense.

In Suggs' case I'd say that his WEAKNESS is rushing the passer, and that's a massive compliment. As Flynismo said, Suggs is great against the run and very effective when asked to drop back into coverage. Honestly, Suggs is so good at everything, he'd be a brilliant 4-3 OLB aswell as 4-3 DE and 3-4 OLB.

I don't want to see any more misinformed/uninformed threads like this one.
[/quote]
The guy who set the NCAA single season sack record, weakness is pass rushing?

[Jamal]

[quote name='Bltravens' timestamp='1288055161' post='520985']
The guy who set the NCAA single season sack record, weakness is pass rushing?
[/quote]
The scary part is that is it very true....

[XxSizzleXx]

[quote name='Jamal' timestamp='1288062155' post='521073']
The scary part is that is it very true....
[/quote]

You sir are so very wrong.

[Bltravens]

[quote name='Jamal' timestamp='1288062155' post='521073']
The scary part is that is it very true....
[/quote]
Come on man, thats not his weakness at all.

Am I part of a select few that actually watch Suggs pass rush?

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='Bltravens' timestamp='1288068798' post='521129']
Come on man, thats not his weakness at all.

[b]Am I part of a select few that actually watch Suggs pass rush?[/b]
[/quote]

It seems that way.

[BloodRaven]

He's our only pass rusher and has responsibilities in coverage as well, give him a break... and someone on the other side. JJ has fallen right off.

[flynismo]

[quote name='Bltravens' timestamp='1288068798' post='521129']<br />Come on man, thats not his weakness at all.<br /><br />Am I part of a select few that actually watch Suggs pass rush?<br />[/quote]

You must be.

I remember his first couple years with us, people used to knock him and label him a "one trick pony" because all he could do was rush the QB, but played horrible in coverage and only so-so in ground support. Now, over the last few years, he has evolved into an excellent coverage man (probably one of the three best coverage LB in the game, arguably even the best) and a beast in stopping the run, in addition to still being able to bring the biznaz like only a handful of other LBs can.. So it's funny to hear all these people who try to knock Sizzle's pass rushing prowess. If some people had their way, they'd turn him into a glorified version of Antwaan Barnes. Why do that? He is so much more than a pass rushing specialist (unlike in his early days), it would be silly to use him in any other fashion than what we are now.

[reediddy]

[quote name='BloodRaven' timestamp='1288071908' post='521168']
He's our only pass rusher and has responsibilities in coverage as well, give him a break... and someone on the other side. JJ has fallen right off.
[/quote]

Ngata is technically our best pass rusher. Why? Ability to collapse the pocket, not go around it

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='reediddy' timestamp='1288073283' post='521179']
Ngata is technically our best pass rusher. Why? Ability to collapse the pocket, not go around it
[/quote]

Ngata isn't he team's best pass rusher and when does he collapse the pocket? On everyone of his sacks this year, he made a great individual play to beat his man(the one against the Jets was partly because of Suggs*) but he rarely collapses the pocket.

[flynismo]

[quote name='reediddy' timestamp='1288073283' post='521179']<br />Ngata is technically our best pass rusher. Why? Ability to collapse the pocket, not go around it<br />[/quote]

The stats say otherwise.

[Bltravens]

[quote name='reediddy' timestamp='1288073283' post='521179']
Ngata is technically our best pass rusher. Why? Ability to collapse the pocket, not go around it
[/quote]
I wish, WISH Ngata had the ability to collapse the pocket with consistency. Suggs would have at least 6 sacks by now possibly more.

[reediddy]

[quote name='Bltravens' timestamp='1288074529' post='521195']
I wish, WISH Ngata had the ability to collapse the pocket with consistency. Suggs would have at least 6 sacks by now possibly more.
[/quote]

I've seen him do it on a couple occasions, but you're right the consistency isn't there. Which is surprising given his strength

[wayne]

[quote name='rlh445' timestamp='1287983608' post='520138']
We don't need his pass rushing the most. We need that versatility you say you appreciate the most. Do you realize how many busted plays we would give up without Suggs there? Obviously you don't. If we just say, 'Suggs, don't worry about anything else, just rush the QB,' without any help from anyone else, we are going to be burned much, much worse then what you saw today with Buffalo. He's the only guy getting consistent pressure, *even when he's not actively rushing the QB*. He's just really being undersold in this thread.
[/quote]
This my take on it: every position in football has a primary responsibility and responsibilities that comes after the primary responsibility obviously . The primary responsibility needs to be taken care of first and foremost and that should be the point of emphasis with that particular player. Would you want a CB thats good at tackling and mediocre at coverage ? Would you want a RB thats good at blocking but mediocre when it comes to running the ball ? I can go on and on with this for every position damn near. Of those examples I stated, I would rather it be the other way around. Now, I love versatility but if making an individual player less versatile which would result in a greater impact in the game, I would take that any day of the week. " Jack of all trades but master of none ", I would rather Suggs be a master of one which is pass rushing and I'm more of a " Master of one " type of guy in some situations but " Jack of all trades " is definitely a vital part sports but you need your well balance between the two, too many of either could be a bad thing ( Jack of all trades , you might can get away with a team full of guys that fit that description )

[Jamal]

[quote name='Bltravens' timestamp='1288068798' post='521129']
Come on man, thats not his weakness at all.

Am I part of a select few that actually watch Suggs pass rush?
[/quote]
You guys don't get what I'm trying to say. Hes a complete player. All of his attributes are balanced.

If you were to rank his skills, pass-rushing is his least best, although it is still better than most defensive players in the NFL.

I'm one of the guys who always defends Suggs, so you should know where I was going.

Geez....