Merged: James Harrison Threads

[thewarden86]

[quote name='Vademor' timestamp='1287511132' post='513902']
It was pretty obvious that he did want to hurt people last sunday. [b]He was headhunting[/b] and it was pretty easy to tell that he was when he took two Browns out of the game with head to head hits.
[/quote]

That's your opinion and I don't agree with it at all.

[Vademor]

[quote name='thewarden86' timestamp='1287513776' post='513937']
That's your opinion and I don't agree with it at all.
[/quote]


That's your opinion and I don't agree with it at all.

[thewarden86]

[quote name='Vademor' timestamp='1287515670' post='513966']
That's your opinion and I don't agree with it at all.
[/quote]

Difference is, your opinion is dead wrong. James Harrison was not head hunting and James Harrison is not a head hunter.

[Vademor]

Yeah, he obviously didn't lead with his head on either of those hits Sunday.....LOL!

[hawkprey]

I think by "hurt" (if he really did use that word), Harrison probably meant "hitting a guy hard" rather than injuring him. There's a difference between getting hurt and getting injured. I don't care much about Harrison anyway, it's Ryan Clark that pisses me off. Particularly when his idea of tackling involves throwing his entire body into McGahee's head.

[BloodRaven]

A little off topic but this is what I thought of when I read the topic title..


[img]http://censorship101.wikispaces.com/file/view/kanyewest.gif/31787681/kanyewest.gif[/img]

[size="4"]"James Harrison doesn't care if he hurts players"[/size]

[Vademor]

[quote name='hawkprey' timestamp='1287516681' post='513994']
Particularly when his idea of tackling involves throwing his entire body into McGahee's head.
[/quote]


Agreed

[thewarden86]

[quote name='hawkprey' timestamp='1287516681' post='513994']
I think by "hurt" (if he really did use that word), Harrison probably meant "hitting a guy hard" rather than injuring him. There's a difference between getting hurt and getting injured. I don't care much about Harrison anyway, it's Ryan Clark that pisses me off. [b]Particularly when his idea of tackling involves throwing his entire body into McGahee's head.[/b]
[/quote]
McGahee lowered his head.

[AwakenTheDemon]

Personally, I don't care if he wants to hit hard or be aggressive. Saying he wants to hurt people is tasteless, I do not care if he doesn't want to injure people, just "hurt" them. If he wants to go out, play fast and play hard then fine, that's his job. His job is not to hurt people, regardless of the severity. I have no problem with aggressive defensive play, but I do not condone saying he wants to "hurt" people.

I won't comment on Harrison's hits as I wasn't watching the game, and I'm not passing judgment based on one picture.

[hawkprey]

[quote name='thewarden86' timestamp='1287517924' post='514033']
McGahee lowered his head.
[/quote]

Yet Clark still felt the need to jump into McGahee's upper body rather than wrap him up by the waist like a respectful player would. I think Clark knows he's not capable of making a tackle, so he goes for players' shoulders in an attempt to clothesline them with his entire body. Helmet-to-helmet? Maybe only incidental. But there's no reason to risk it by playing cheap like that.

[thewarden86]

[quote name='hawkprey' timestamp='1287527743' post='514236']
Yet Clark still felt the need to jump into McGahee's upper body rather than wrap him up by the waist like a respectful player would. I think Clark knows he's not capable of making a tackle, so he goes for players' shoulders in an attempt to clothesline them with his entire body. Helmet-to-helmet? Maybe only incidental. But there's no reason to risk it by playing cheap like that.
[/quote]

Cheap my butt! I, and many fans like me, pay to see hits like that. In the old days it was meant to send a message. Not to mention it was a crucial part of a crucial game and Ryan Clark did his job: He separated the ball carrier from the ball. Now-a-days, we seemingly have sissy's and old ladies who think it's too violent. My message to them is: STOP WATCHING THEN!

[hawkprey]

[quote name='thewarden86' timestamp='1287527889' post='514240']
Cheap my butt! I, and many fans like me, pay to see hits like that. In the old days it was meant to send a message. Not to mention it was a crucial part of a crucial game and Ryan Clark did his job: He separated the ball carrier from the ball. Now-a-days, we seemingly have sissy's and old ladies who think it's too violent. My message to them is: STOP WATCHING THEN!
[/quote]

This isn't violence. This is stupidity. A violent hit is different from a cheap hit. Maybe you don't see the difference because your team plays that way all the time.

Look at Ray Ray's hit on Dustin Keller. THAT is what I want to see. He hits him in the chest with power and does essentially what Clark was trying to do. The difference is Keller didn't have to be taken off the field on a stretcher simply because Ray was too chicken to hit him cleanly. Clark goes for the most vulnerable part of a guy in order to compensate for his lack of ability. Absolutely disgusting to watch your player on the ground motionless because his opposition has to take the easy way out.

You complain about sissies not wanting to see hard hits? What about the players to sissy to hit like a man? I do NOT pay to see that.

[thewarden86]

[quote name='hawkprey' timestamp='1287529317' post='514282']
This isn't violence. This is stupidity. A violent hit is different from a cheap hit. Maybe you don't see the difference because your team plays that way all the time.

Look at Ray Ray's hit on Dustin Keller. THAT is what I want to see. He hits him in the chest with power and does essentially what Clark was trying to do. The difference is Keller didn't have to be taken off the field on a stretcher simply because Ray was too chicken to hit him cleanly. Clark goes for the most vulnerable part of a guy in order to compensate for his lack of ability. Absolutely disgusting to watch your player on the ground motionless because his opposition has to take the easy way out.

You complain about sissies not wanting to see hard hits? What about the players to sissy to hit like a man? I do NOT pay to see that.
[/quote]

This was hardly worth reading. Ray Lewis is KING of the pile on. Is that manly too? Please.

[Clutch Ravens]

I'm fine with big hits, as long as the player tackling is LOOKING at what he's tackling and isn't INTENTIONALLY leading with the crown of the helmet.

Harrison's hits weren't dirty and he gives his definition of hurt as roughing a player up and making him feel pain, not causing real injury.

Stupid hits like Dunta Robinson's I have a problem with. The idiot lowered his head, didn't look at what he was tackling and hit with the crown of his helmet injuring Desean Jackson AND himself. Both injuries are avoidable if Dunta doesn't make a stupid tackle.

[Moderator 2]

No personal attacks please/

[Bltravens]

[quote name='thewarden86' timestamp='1287529668' post='514284']
Ray Lewis is KING of the pile on. Is that manly too? Please.
[/quote]
Im not sure what that has to do with anything, seems out of left field. I think Harrison's fine was too extreme, the hit on Cribbs is fine, Cribbs is an acting HB who lowers his body, helmet to helmet is perfectly legal because Cribbs leads with his. The only issue I have with Harrisons second hit is that he leaves his feet to hit Massaquoi. Harrison could have easily laid him out staying on his feet and going shoulder to his chest.

Harrisons fine was too steep especially when considering Merriweather's fine when Merriweather is a KNOWN head hunter.

[hawkprey]

[quote name='thewarden86' timestamp='1287529668' post='514284']
This was hardly worth reading. Ray Lewis is KING of the pile on. Is that manly too? Please.
[/quote]

Lets put it this way, who is the better tackler, Polamalu or Clark? And who would you pay more to watch tackle? I ask this because even though I'm pretty sure Clark has laid out more guys, I think the answers to those questions would be universally Troy.

[thewarden86]

[quote name='hawkprey' timestamp='1287531319' post='514313']
Lets put it this way, who is the better tackler, Polamalu or Clark? And who would you pay more to watch tackle? I ask this because even though I'm pretty sure Clark has laid out more guys, I think the answers to those questions would be universally Troy.
[/quote]

They're different players, but clearly Troy is the better everything. Ryan Clark is a good player and a smart player. But he is the hitter because Troy is all over the place. John Lynch was also known as a hitter. Do you think he was less a man? How about Ronnie Lott? It's part of the game. Or at least is always has been until recently. It's not something I want to see go away.

[thewarden86]

[quote name='Bltravens' timestamp='1287531204' post='514311']
I[b]m not sure what that has to do with anything, seems out of left field. [/b] I think Harrison's fine was too extreme, the hit on Cribbs is fine, Cribbs is an acting HB who lowers his body, helmet to helmet is perfectly legal because Cribbs leads with his. The only issue I have with Harrisons second hit is that he leaves his feet to hit Massaquoi. Harrison could have easily laid him out staying on his feet and going shoulder to his chest.

Harrisons fine was too steep especially when considering Merriweather's fine when Merriweather is a KNOWN head hunter.
[/quote]

I was being lectured on manly tackling:

[quote name='hawkprey' timestamp='1287529317' post='514282']
This isn't violence. This is stupidity. A violent hit is different from a cheap hit. Maybe you don't see the difference because your team plays that way all the time.

[b]Look at Ray Ray's hit on Dustin Keller. THAT is what I want to see. He hits him in the chest with power and does essentially what Clark was trying to do. The difference is Keller didn't have to be taken off the field on a stretcher simply because Ray was too chicken to hit him cleanly. [/b]Clark goes for the most vulnerable part of a guy in order to compensate for his lack of ability. Absolutely disgusting to watch your player on the ground motionless because his opposition has to take the easy way out.

You complain about sissies not wanting to see hard hits? What about the players to sissy to hit like a man? I do NOT pay to see that.
[/quote]

[hawkprey]

[quote name='thewarden86' timestamp='1287531509' post='514316']
They're different players, but clearly Troy is the better everything. Ryan Clark is a good player and a smart player. But he is the hitter because Troy is all over the place. John Lynch was also known as a hitter. Do you think he was less a man? How about Ronnie Lott? It's part of the game. Or at least is always has been until recently. It's not something I want to see go away.
[/quote]

I never said anything about "manliness", I was talking about cheap versus clean. Cheap hits have never been part of the game. Even by todays standards, they weren't cheap because they were body shots. Wrestling down guys used to be part of the game too, but you never attacked his head.

I know you think ruling against these kind of hits dampens the integrity of the game, but how much do these head shots change the integrity? It looks cowardly to me. Especially when both players go down together a la Clark/McGahee and Robinson/Jackson. That doesn't scream "manliness" to me.

[thewarden86]

[quote name='hawkprey' timestamp='1287532508' post='514330']
I never said anything about "manliness", I was talking about cheap versus clean. Cheap hits have never been part of the game. Even by todays standards, they weren't cheap because they were body shots. Wrestling down guys used to be part of the game too, but you never attacked his head.

I know you think ruling against these kind of hits dampens the integrity of the game, but how much do these head shots change the integrity? It looks cowardly to me. Especially when both players go down together a la Clark/McGahee and Robinson/Jackson. That doesn't scream "manliness" to me.
[/quote]

For the record, I don't think players should shoot for another players head. That said, Clark was NOT trying to go head-to-head with McGahee. McGahee braced himself for the hit and yes, Clark was going to lay him out. As it happens, they hit helmet-to-helmet and both got knocked out. It happens and I have no issues with it. Nor would I if it were the other way around. There is nothing cowardly about it. I think what you are describing as what you feel all tackling should be is lame, and it's certainly not what I grew up watching.

Watch it in slo-mo:

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6d3R5aVR4K0[/media]

Clark clearly attempts to hit McGahee in the chest with his shoulder.

[hawkprey]

[quote name='thewarden86' timestamp='1287532838' post='514335']
For the record, I don't think players should shoot for another players head. That said, Clark was NOT trying to go head-to-head with McGahee. McGahee braced himself for the hit and yes, Clark was going to lay him out. As it happens, they hit helmet-to-helmet and both got knocked out. It happens and I have no issues with it. Nor would I if it were the other way around. There is nothing cowardly about it. I think what you are describing as what you feel all tackling should be is lame, and it's certainly not what I grew up watching.

Clark clearly attempts to hit McGahee in the chest with his shoulder.
[/quote]

It doesn't look to me like there's any effort not to hit McGahee's head, as that is the first point of contact. Clark has all the time in the world to prepare for the hit and McGahee has a fraction of a second to prepare for it. Regardless, I'm not against bit hits. It's only head-to-head. I don't buy the idea that head-to-head is an "accident", because everyone knows it's impossible to hit your shoulder against someone else's shoulder without your helmets colliding. That is unless you attack from the side like a body-check, which is what the "old school" football players used to do.

For the sake of this thread, I watched a video of Jack Tatum hits and found only one (the Superbowl one on Sammy White) that resulted in head-to-head contact.

[thewarden86]

[quote name='hawkprey' timestamp='1287533658' post='514344']
[b]It doesn't look to me like there's any effort not to hit McGahee's head, as that is the first point of contact. Clark has all the time in the world to prepare for the hit and McGahee has a fraction of a second to prepare for it.[/b] Regardless, I'm not against bit hits. It's only head-to-head. I don't buy the idea that head-to-head is an "accident", because everyone knows it's impossible to hit your shoulder against someone else's shoulder without your helmets colliding. That is unless you attack from the side like a body-check, which is what the "old school" football players used to do.

For the sake of this thread, I watched a video of Jack Tatum hits and found only one (the Superbowl one on Sammy White) that resulted in head-to-head contact.
[/quote]

Dude, c'mon! Clark is already set up and he CLEARLY is targeting his shoulder for McGahee's chest. McGahee's fraction of a second reaction [u]left Clark no time[/u] to change his approach. This happened in about 1.5 seconds. You've seriously got to be kidding me if you can't tell that Ryan Clark was leading with his shoulder. Because there is no debate there as far as I'm concerned.

But I suppose you'll say Ray Lewis' block was clean by your definition:

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLZN0CabW6s[/media]

[hawkprey]

[quote name='thewarden86' timestamp='1287533878' post='514346']
Dude, c'mon! Clark is already set up and he CLEARLY is targeting his shoulder for McGahee's chest. McGahee's fraction of a second reaction [u]left Clark no time[/u] to change his approach. This happened in about 1.5 seconds. You've seriously got to be kidding me if you can't tell that Ryan Clark was leading with his shoulder. Because there is no debate there as far as I'm concerned.

But I suppose you'll say Ray Lewis' block was clean by your definition:
[/quote]

I already answered this in my last post. Clark was targeting McGahee's shoulder, but he was targeting it with his shoulder. There no way that two guys running head-on can collide at the shoulder without also colliding at the head. I'm trying to say that head-on shoulder-to-shoulder hits shouldn't be legal because they will always result in helmets cracking together.

Ray's hit was a body-check, which was not head-on. That's the difference. And you'll notice, they didn't have to carry out Burns on a stretcher.

[thewarden86]

[quote name='hawkprey' timestamp='1287534823' post='514361']
I already answered this in my last post. Clark was targeting McGahee's shoulder, but he was targeting it with his shoulder. There no way that two guys running head-on can collide at the shoulder without also colliding at the head. [b]I'm trying to say that head-on shoulder-to-shoulder hits shouldn't be legal because they will always result in helmets cracking together.[/b]

[b]Ray's hit was a body-check, which was not head-on. [/b]That's the difference. And you'll notice, they didn't have to carry out Burns on a stretcher.
[/quote]

That's completely unacceptable and I don't want people with your mindset changing my long time favorite sport all of a sudden. As I said, use technology to make better safety equipment but leave the game alone!

As far as Ray, there are those that would call it a "cheap shot." I figured you wouldn't see it that way. I don't think it's cheap myself, but your description of what cheap means clearly encompasses this block so I'm think you're being a hypocrite here.

To me a cheap shot is a blow to the back of a player after the play is over.

BTW - The new guidelines state: "The NFL reserves the right to suspend players whose hits -- regardless of intent -- display a flagrant disregard for other players' safety."

Contradiction in terms if you ask me: "Regardless of intent" but "flagrant."

It's the beginning of a new "soft" era.

Man I hate Roger Goodell.

[hawkprey]

[quote name='thewarden86' timestamp='1287535456' post='514370']
That's completely unacceptable and I don't want people with your mindset changing my long time favorite sport all of a sudden. As I said, use technology to make better safety equipment but leave the game alone!

As far as Ray, there are those that would call it a "cheap shot." I figured you wouldn't see it that way. I don't think it's cheap myself, but your description of what cheap means clearly encompasses this block so I'm think you're being a hypocrite here.

To me a cheap shot is a blow to the back of a player after the play is over.

BTW - The new guidelines state: "The NFL reserves the right to suspend players whose hits -- regardless of intent -- display a flagrant disregard for other players' safety."

Contradiction in terms if you ask me: "Regardless of intent" but "flagrant."

It's the beginning of a new "soft" era.

Man I hate Roger Goodell.
[/quote]

I tried to demonstrate to you that the kinds of helmet-to-helmet hits you see now that are injuring all these players were not part of the game years ago. These are a new brand cheap, easy tackles made only to make the player appear tougher than he really is.

I'm not a Goodell fan, but if you ask me, the players are getting soft. They're risking giving a guy a concussion and possibly ending his career because they're too soft to deliver a body shot. How much does a guy weigh from his shoulders up? Not much.


I feel like you're using me as the prototype for everything you hate about certain fans. But you understand what I'm talking about now?

[thewarden86]

[quote name='hawkprey' timestamp='1287536048' post='514380']
I tried to demonstrate to you that the kinds of helmet-to-helmet hits you see now that are injuring all these players were not part of the game years ago. [color="#ff0000"]These are a new brand cheap, easy tackles made only to make the player appear tougher than he really is.[/color]

I'm not a Goodell fan, but if you ask me, the players are getting soft. [color="#ff0000"]They're risking giving a guy a concussion and possibly ending his career because they're too soft to deliver a body shot.[/color] How much does a guy weigh from his shoulders up? Not much.


[b]I feel like you're using me as the prototype for everything you hate about certain fans. But you understand what I'm talking about now?[/b]
[/quote]

Actually, I'm not. And I apologize if I come off that way. But I DO disagree with what's in red.

I think very few players try to hit helmet-to-helmet and I disagree that it's easily avoidable. There will be helmet-to-helmet contact that was incidental and results in a concussion. And now, there will likely be a fine and a suspension associated with it and that makes me angry.

[hawkprey]

[quote name='thewarden86' timestamp='1287536404' post='514389']
Actually, I'm not. And I apologize if I come off that way. But I DO disagree with what's in red.

I think very few players try to hit helmet-to-helmet and I disagree that it's easily avoidable. There will be helmet-to-helmet contact that was incidental and results in a concussion. And now, there will likely be a fine and a suspension associated with it and that makes me angry.
[/quote]

Well if you look at Robinson's hit, that doesn't really merit a fine or suspension. It's gotta be a case-by-case rule.

Because I don't know if you watched the Ravens/Pats game, but Merriweather was going for cheap shots all game. For guys like that, I don't care if they get suspended, fined, or put on a catapult and launched out of the stadium. The replayed hit on Heap was only one example of his continually embarrassing style of play.

[thewarden86]

[quote name='hawkprey' timestamp='1287536754' post='514397']
Well if you look at Robinson's hit, that doesn't really merit a fine or suspension. It's gotta be a case-by-case rule.

Because I don't know if you watched the Ravens/Pats game, but Merriweather was going for cheap shots all game. For guys like that, I don't care if they get suspended, fined, or put on a catapult and launched out of the stadium. The replayed hit on Heap was only one example of his continually embarrassing style of play.
[/quote]

I agree about Robinson. I'm afraid of the "case-by-case" thing being consistent.

I hadn't seen the Merriweather hit, but I heard all about it. I finally saw it on youtube. He clearly went high each time on heap. I still think those players and those plays are rare (the intentional ones). He looks like he needs to be coached a little because it didn't appear that he thought he did anything wrong.

[Alexir]

Non story.

Suggs would say the same thing. Defenders job is to rock the offensive players world and make him not wanna come at him again.

I hate Harrison but I agree with him here. Goodell is making this sport into a sissy sport and I hate him for that. He wants to protect offensive players and he is taking away from the game.

If you are going to fine a player, it better be on a play when a flag is thrown. Jarmon got fined for hitting Aaron Rodgers and didnt even draw a flag. Its ridiculous and embarrassing that we allow Goodell to change the game we love because someone got a concussion. What next no more boxing because of brain damage? No more fighting in hockey to protect teeth and jawbones?