Cameron

[DrMoonTooth]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' timestamp='1287539692' post='514449']
On 3rd and 19, Joe checked down again(why I don't know) and the drive was over.
[/quote]
My guess would be they were trying to gain some guaranteed yards instead of taking a shot, gaining nothing, and giving the Patriots even better field position.

Nevertheless, the frustration is mutual. Something with the offense needs to change (other than better execution), and it's not Joe Flacco.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='DrMoonTooth' timestamp='1287540267' post='514463']
My guess would be they were trying to gain some guaranteed yards instead of taking a shot, gaining nothing, and giving the Patriots even better field position.

Nevertheless, the frustration is mutual. Something with the offense needs to change (other than better execution), and it's not Joe Flacco.
[/quote]

You're right, field position was more important at that time.

Cam simply needs to get better at adapting to the flow of the game. The FO has a done fine job amassing enough talent to where this team doesn't need an identity and can attack a D any number of ways. All Cam has to do is figure out what's working and keep at it.

[DrMoonTooth]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' timestamp='1287540421' post='514466']
You're right, field position was more important at that time.

Cam simply needs to get better at adapting to the flow of the game. The FO has a done fine job amassing enough talent to where this team doesn't need an identity and can attack a D any number of ways. All Cam has to do is figure out what's working and keep at it.
[/quote]
Very true. I figured Cameron would of been utilizing all of our weapons by this point. Hopefully some of these offensive woes will be addressed during the BYE week.

[Clutch Ravens]

I've made my feelings on Cam obvious in other threads.

He should have his playcalling responsibilitys revoked asap and will be let go when he's out of contract at the end of the season.

After that, I doubt he'll be coaching again any time soon.

[JO_75]

I don't think he should be fired yet, as mentioned in the other thread I don't think Cam thought Joe was going to grow up quickly as he did. Joe has now grown enough where he feels he should be able to do audibles and do things on his own. Cam on the other hand is afraid to take the key out and get the hand cuffs off Joe. Now granted everybody says that we lost by only 3 to a good team, yes by being conservative and do you remember what happened against the Bengals... Cam did the same thing and so far our two losses have come because of Cam being so conservative.

Ozzie, Steve Biscotti, Harbs, Joe and Cam all need to sit down and have a meeting to discuss all of this. It's bad that Joe went to the media and told the media instead of having a meeting like I suggested and just talk privately. Cam should give more freedom to Joe and see what happens... oh wait just ask the Steelers defense about what happens when Joe calls his own plays.

I say if Cam keeps it up and being conservative fire him at the end of the year, but if he learns and lets Joe do his own stuff, keep him around for 1 more season.

[ZIBBY28]

[quote name='Jamal' timestamp='1287535961' post='514377']
Not really. Cam's been criticized since week 2. How Boldin is having such a great year is beyond me. The whole offense is set up to fail.

We are 4-2, but we wont beat any team with a good coach, if Cam doesn't change it up a bit.
[/quote]
change what though?... what exactly do you want to see him do?.. How is it Cam's fault no one was open down field in OT and Flacco was forced to check down?

Sorry, I guess I'm just frustrated with all the frustration if that makes any sense lol

[JohnJohnson]

[quote name='ZIBBY28' timestamp='1287548648' post='514558']
change what though?... what exactly do you want to see him do?.. How is it Cam's fault no one was open down field in OT and Flacco was forced to check down?

Sorry, I guess I'm just frustrated with all the frustration if that makes any sense lol
[/quote]

Because he's running 2 wide and didn't even run any screens. How is Flacco supposed to find 2 receivers when they're dropping 8 in coverage and just spying Rice?

[Jamal]

[quote name='ZIBBY28' timestamp='1287548648' post='514558']
change what though?... what exactly do you want to see him do?.. How is it Cam's fault no one was open down field in OT and Flacco was forced to check down?

Sorry, I guess I'm just frustrated with all the frustration if that makes any sense lol
[/quote]
What is he doing wrong? Well lets see....
Hes not using most of our players on offense. Did you watch the Pats offense? They actually use there mis-match TE. The only time Dickson was in there, was when Heap had to go off the field.

Why doesn't he use a 4 WR formation with Boldin, Mase, Housh, and Dickson? I guarantee you, one of those guys will get open.

My little brother was guessing his plays in the 4th and OT. run on 1st, if its a bad run than pass for the other 2 downs using only 2 WR's knowing Joe has trouble with the cover 2, after Housh showed what he could do the few times he was in there

Why doesn't he use the spread to open things up for Rice? It would definitely make the Pats defense's job a lot harder. Most NFL coaches figure out someone so predictable, but someone like Bill Belichick will eat you alive.

Look back at the Steelers game. Same story. Flacco starts out hot, but eventually a top 3 coach figures Cam out. He finally gets Housh on the field, and with Flacco in control we score in 30 seconds against the best defense in the NFL IMO.

Sorry for such a long post, but you did ask me what hes doing wrong, and I can go on forever.

[T-Sizz]

[quote name='Alexir' timestamp='1287370338' post='511733']
Would you want him fired now or after the season? We are still 4-2 and firing an offensive coordinator could hurt us. I wouldn't mind seeing Zorn call the plays though, I rather stay in house if we were to release Cam.
[/quote]

yeah cause that went really well when he was with the redskins

[ravenwildman]

When it comes to personnel, you invest incredible resources into the person. It is easier, if needed, to "coach" an employee to success then to start from scratch. The exception being if someone does something grievous to the team that warrants it. Miami has an argument for that.

To want to "fire" Cam because we lost a close game is absurd. So....who would you bring in? What if we lose again? Fire Harbs?...Matteson?.. Zorn?...the water boy?

That sounds like something the Redskins would do. You see how well that has worked for them.

Stop the Donald Trump stuff, "your fired". Cool heads win the day.

GO RAVENS!

[flynismo]

Oh for the love of god, i hope people stop suggesting that zorn replace cameron.I dont care about keeping it "in house". Just find someone who can get the job done.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='Jamal' timestamp='1287584964' post='514714']
What is he doing wrong? Well lets see....
Hes not using most of our players on offense. Did you watch the Pats offense? They actually use there mis-match TE. The only time Dickson was in there, was when Heap had to go off the field.

[b]Why doesn't he use a 4 WR formation with Boldin, Mase, Housh, and Dickson? I guarantee you, one of those guys will get open.[/b]

My little brother was guessing his plays in the 4th and OT. run on 1st, if its a bad run than pass for the other 2 downs using only 2 WR's knowing Joe has trouble with the cover 2, after Housh showed what he could do the few times he was in there

Why doesn't he use the spread to open things up for Rice? It would definitely make the Pats defense's job a lot harder. Most NFL coaches figure out someone so predictable, but someone like Bill Belichick will eat you alive.

Look back at the Steelers game. Same story. Flacco starts out hot, but eventually a top 3 coach figures Cam out. He finally gets Housh on the field, and with Flacco in control we score in 30 seconds against the best defense in the NFL IMO.

Sorry for such a long post, but you did ask me what hes doing wrong, and I can go on forever.
[/quote]

Cam actually did use a similar formation to that(Heap replaced Dickson) on the Ravens' final possession. Like I said before, either no one was open or Joe didn't make his reads quick enough but he checked the ball down to Rice all three plays.

[ZIBBY28]

[quote name='JohnJohnson' timestamp='1287556444' post='514603']
Because he's running 2 wide and didn't even run any screens. How is Flacco supposed to find 2 receivers when they're dropping 8 in coverage and just spying Rice?
[/quote]
that's not true at all... We ran plenty of 4 wide sets... basically, any time that Housh and Heap were on the field we were running 3 or 4 wide... plus, why would you want to constantly air it out up 10 in the 4th?

[quote name='Jamal' timestamp='1287584964' post='514714']
What is he doing wrong? Well lets see....
Hes not using most of our players on offense. Did you watch the Pats offense? They actually use there mis-match TE. The only time Dickson was in there, was when Heap had to go off the field.

Why doesn't he use a 4 WR formation with Boldin, Mase, Housh, and Dickson? I guarantee you, one of those guys will get open.

My little brother was guessing his plays in the 4th and OT. run on 1st, if its a bad run than pass for the other 2 downs using only 2 WR's knowing Joe has trouble with the cover 2, after Housh showed what he could do the few times he was in there

Why doesn't he use the spread to open things up for Rice? It would definitely make the Pats defense's job a lot harder. Most NFL coaches figure out someone so predictable, but someone like Bill Belichick will eat you alive.

Look back at the Steelers game. Same story. Flacco starts out hot, but eventually a top 3 coach figures Cam out. He finally gets Housh on the field, and with Flacco in control we score in 30 seconds against the best defense in the NFL IMO.

Sorry for such a long post, but you did ask me what hes doing wrong, and I can go on forever.
[/quote]
I'm still not seeing, man, but to each his own... If you honestly think firing Cam Cameron will help this offense, then that's your opinion.

[Jamal]

[quote name='ZIBBY28' timestamp='1287593637' post='514854']
that's not true at all... We ran plenty of 4 wide sets... basically, any time that Housh and Heap were on the field we were running 3 or 4 wide... plus, why would you want to constantly air it out up 10 in the 4th?


I'm still not seeing, man, but to each his own... If you honestly think firing Cam Cameron will help this offense, then that's your opinion.
[/quote]
I never said I wanted him fired. I actually said that would be like giving up on the season.

I'm just pointing out the reasons why the offense has been mediocre so far into the season.

Also, how do you explain McGahee not getting any carries? He historically does great against the Pats. Why not put him in there in the 4th for a nice change of pace at the RB position?
Willis would be a starting RB on a lot of teams, but you give him no carries, when Rice is clearly not doing much, and you are trying to run the clock out....

The offense is uncreative. Even when we line up in the 3 WR sets, a BB defense will know exactly whats coming....

I can't change your opinion obviously, but if its not Cam, do you think Flacco was just that terrible after 3 quarters? Because thats been the pattern all year so far.

[Perfekt]

I dont want Cam fired but I do at the end of the season want someone else brought in unless he can prove to stop over thinking things an take what the defense is giving up. If they are playing cover 2 that means we can eat them up with the run. If your not going to let Willis run a few atleast let McClain power in a few to soften it up for Rice. No we keep throwing short dinks and dunks that dont get pass the LOS.

[ravenanchors]

The issues isn't who to blame. You could blame anyone you like, but that's not going to fix the problem.

You have to get to the heart of the problem because fixing little things here an there is okay but the problems will still persist.

This isssue isn't about firing Cam for one bad game.
I think most people recognize there is a persistent problem dating back to at least last year.

Everyone was blaming Joe for all the problems, but once Joe and the offense started playing well and the same problems persisted, people started to look elsewhere for answers.

QB's always get the credit or the blame because it is the easy thing to do.

Trying to blame Cam is difficult because you really need to know the in and outs of the game to be able to make a coherent argument.

What really turned me around was when Cam blamed Joe for the Cincinati loss. Cam took absolutely no blame for the loss. He really threw Joe under the bus (so to speak).

The more I examined Joe, the more I realized that his minor inconsistencies were not the reason for the team winning and losing. It really had to be something more significant.

Thats when I started thinking about the play calling and game planning. It really jumps out at you because it has been so bad.

Cam is responsible for having the offense ready to play and having the game plan ready. If the players aren't ready or its a bad game plan or bad play calling, (it is Cam's responsibility).

The stat from Pats game that jumps out at me are the punts
Ravens had 9 punts and only 4 successful drives against a defense that ranks 30th.

[homes500]

I think Joe just had a bad 4th quarter. Cam is one of the best o-coordinators in the NFL.

[ravensdfan]

[quote name='homes500' timestamp='1287624713' post='515302']
I think Joe just had a bad 4th quarter. Cam is one of the best o-coordinators in the NFL.
[/quote]

2nd and 9 - Cam calls a run.
4th and inches - Cam calls a QB sneak.

OT - and we are running or checking down. Our WRs are in short routes, nothing to stretch the field in any fashion.

I think Joe did have a bad 4th quarter and OT but I think the play calling had a lot to do with it.

[Jamal]

[quote name='homes500' timestamp='1287624713' post='515302']
Cam is one of the best o-coordinators in the NFL.
[/quote]
[IMG]http://i54.tinypic.com/35c4x7t.jpg[/IMG]

[ZIBBY28]

[quote name='ravensdfan' timestamp='1287625026' post='515311']
2nd and 9 - Cam calls a run.
4th and inches - Cam calls a QB sneak.

OT - and we are running or checking down. Our WRs are in short routes, nothing to stretch the field in any fashion.

I think Joe did have a bad 4th quarter and OT but I think the play calling had a lot to do with it.
[/quote]
so you're saying we shouldn't run the ball on 2nd down?.. shouldn't sneak with inches to go when your offense is averaging under 3 yards per carry?

What is wrong with either of those play calls? What would you suggest?

And doesn't the term "check down" basically mean no one was open down field, so the ball is dumped off? Thus, they [i]tried[/i] to go down field but no one was open?

I've said it numerous times, but again, what exactly is it that you want Cam to do?

[ZIBBY28]

[quote name='Perfekt' timestamp='1287605393' post='515062']
I dont want Cam fired but I do at the end of the season want someone else brought in unless he can prove to stop over thinking things an take what the defense is giving up. [b]If they are playing cover 2 that means we can eat them up with the run.[/b] If your not going to let Willis run a few atleast let McClain power in a few to soften it up for Rice. No we keep throwing short dinks and dunks that dont get pass the LOS.
[/quote]
We did try and "eat them up with the run." It didn't work. We ran the ball 35 times, man... only 2.9 yards per carry

I'd also like to see Willis get some touches, but I honestly do not think it would have changed much.

It's weird how I'm seeing that some people say that we didn't see enough 3 and 4 wide sets, while others say we didn't pound the ball enough. To me, that goes to show that we did a little bit of both, which is what you want.

[ZIBBY28]

[quote name='Jamal' timestamp='1287604669' post='515047']
I never said I wanted him fired. I actually said that would be like giving up on the season.

I'm just pointing out the reasons why the offense has been mediocre so far into the season.

Also, how do you explain McGahee not getting any carries? He historically does great against the Pats. Why not put him in there in the 4th for a nice change of pace at the RB position?

Willis would be a starting RB on a lot of teams, but you give him no carries, when Rice is clearly not doing much, and you are trying to run the clock out....
The offense is uncreative. Even when we line up in the 3 WR sets, a BB defense will know exactly whats coming....

I can't change your opinion obviously, but if its not Cam, do you think Flacco was just that terrible after 3 quarters? Because thats been the pattern all year so far.
[/quote]
I totally agree that McGahee should have gotten some touches... no question. But to say that McGahee is historically good against the Pats, so we should have seen more McGahee/less Rice isn't the greatest logic judging by the last time they played... If you want to bring statistics into the picture to judge their effectiveness, in the playoff game Rice had 22 carries for 159 yards (7.2 ypc) while Willis had 20 for 62 (3.1 ypc)

Nevertheless, again, Willis should have carried the ball. I agree, but I highly doubt it would have changed the outcome of the game.

When it comes to Flacco's "pattern," I don't really see it. We had commanding leads against the Browns and Broncos, so he wasn't forced to throw, he was terrible throughout the Cinci game, didn't play very well at any point during the Jets game, and led a 4th Q comeback against the Steelers throwing the football, so idk...

basically, I guess I'm just arguing that I agree with the conservative play calling late. We were up by 10 and there's no reason why we couldn't even muster a measly 3 yards per carry... Sure, play calling is important, but as much as we've invested in Oher/Grubbs/Birk, McClain, and Rice, we should be able to put together a couple first downs to keep drives alive even if your little cousin/brother (sorry, I forget who you said) knows what's coming

[Jamal]

[quote name='ZIBBY28' timestamp='1287729771' post='516271']
I totally agree that McGahee should have gotten some touches... no question. But to say that McGahee is historically good against the Pats, so we should have seen more McGahee/less Rice isn't the greatest logic judging by the last time they played... If you want to bring statistics into the picture to judge their effectiveness, in the playoff game Rice had 22 carries for 159 yards (7.2 ypc) while Willis had 20 for 62 (3.1 ypc)

Nevertheless, again, Willis should have carried the ball. I agree, but I highly doubt it would have changed the outcome of the game.

When it comes to Flacco's "pattern," I don't really see it. We had commanding leads against the Browns and Broncos, so he wasn't forced to throw, he was terrible throughout the Cinci game, didn't play very well at any point during the Jets game, and led a 4th Q comeback against the Steelers throwing the football, so idk...

basically, I guess I'm just arguing that I agree with the conservative play calling late. We were up by 10 and there's no reason why we couldn't even muster a measly 3 yards per carry... Sure, play calling is important, but as much as we've invested in Oher/Grubbs/Birk, McClain, and Rice, we should be able to put together a couple first downs to keep drives alive even if your little cousin/brother (sorry, I forget who you said) knows what's coming
[/quote]
You can't really say that. A defense can get used to one style for a RB, and Willis might have provided the spark we needed. How could you be so sure Willis wouldn't have changed the outcome?

A 10 point lead against Manning or Brady is like a 7 point game IMO. Maybe if your up 14 points you could take it easy, but even than you need to stay aggressive if you don't want a comeback from these QB's.

No reason why Rice couldn't get a first down even though we all knew what was coming? First of all, that kind of playcalling wont work against the best coach in football, and second; there run d is actually 4 ranks lower than ours. While there pass d is 29th in the NFL.
Plus someone like Bill wont let Rice run wild on him twice. I said it before the game; Flacco would have to win the game for us, and I still believe that.

We've only put up more than 24 points once so far. That is unacceptable with all the talent we have on offense.

[ravensdfan]

[quote name='ZIBBY28' timestamp='1287728025' post='516265']
so you're saying we shouldn't run the ball on 2nd down?.. shouldn't sneak with inches to go when your offense is averaging under 3 yards per carry?

What is wrong with either of those play calls? What would you suggest?

And doesn't the term "check down" basically mean no one was open down field, so the ball is dumped off? Thus, they [i]tried[/i] to go down field but no one was open?

I've said it numerous times, but again, what exactly is it that you want Cam to do?
[/quote]

The check downs were called plays. Our WRs were a mere couple of yards deeper than Rice. We did not attempt in any fashion to spread the field. I'm saying we needed first downs and the running game was not working. The quick outs to Rice were not working. It was not one series of downs. You do not keep going in there with the same plays over and over and over when they are not working. You come up with something else. Cam does not do that. Again, we are not talking about just this game.

[ZIBBY28]

[quote name='Jamal' timestamp='1287758949' post='516403']
You can't really say that. A defense can get used to one style for a RB, and Willis might have provided the spark we needed. How could you be so sure Willis wouldn't have changed the outcome?

A 10 point lead against Manning or Brady is like a 7 point game IMO. Maybe if your up 14 points you could take it easy, but even than you need to stay aggressive if you don't want a comeback from these QB's.

No reason why Rice couldn't get a first down even though we all knew what was coming? First of all, that kind of playcalling wont work against the best coach in football, and second; there run d is actually 4 ranks lower than ours. While there pass d is 29th in the NFL.
Plus someone like Bill wont let Rice run wild on him twice. I said it before the game; Flacco would have to win the game for us, and I still believe that.

We've only put up more than 24 points once so far. That is unacceptable with all the talent we have on offense.
[/quote]

[quote name='ravensdfan' timestamp='1287774982' post='516569']
The check downs were called plays. Our WRs were a mere couple of yards deeper than Rice. We did not attempt in any fashion to spread the field. I'm saying we needed first downs and the running game was not working. The quick outs to Rice were not working. It was not one series of downs. You do not keep going in there with the same plays over and over and over when they are not working. You come up with something else. Cam does not do that. Again, we are not talking about just this game.
[/quote]
k

[ravenanchors]

It doesn't matter if we run the ball or throw the ball. That wasn't the problem.
It was the play design that failed.

The receivers couldn't get open (according to the receivers)
The running back only got 3 yards a carry.

You really cannot blame the players for this problem. Because what you are really saying is that Boldin does not know how to get open and the same goes for Mase,Housh, Heap.

The receivers run the routes designed and called by the O.C.. If the O.C. does not call the appropriate play to counter the defensive strategy, then the fault goes to the O.C.

The Ravens have outstanding players,
Saying that the receivers don't know how to get open or that the running back doesn't know how to escape the lineman is just (for the lack of a better word) stupid.

[TheRavenouseD2008]

ok guess you guys didnt watch the interview with harbs , its not that joe doesnt have options , cam gives him 3 plays to audible per package per situation so I think its more line communication maybe birk needs to know the plays joe has better to call what he sees so joe can audible better . also remember he is still building a repor with tj donte and boldin thought boldins repor with joe seems to be good tj and donte have a ways to go once it clicks it should be a sight

[flaccopoe]

Anyone want to comment in light of our tough loss to the Falcons?

[Jamal]

I don't think he should be fired, but someone(Ozzie, or Harbs)needs to tell him to take the handcuff off of Flacco.

They should also let him know that a little creativity wouldn't kill him.

[Moderator 3]

Instead of dragging up this old thread you should have [url="http://boards.baltimoreravens.com/topic/29010-cam-cameron-complaint-thread/"]joined the conversation in this more up-to-date one[/url].