Cameron

[BloodRaven]

[quote name='Twoo' timestamp='1287417544' post='512313']
We were 4-2 when we fired our OC in 06, like we are now- and we ended the season 13-3.

Check your facts before you post.
[/quote]

In 06 we were ranked near the bottom of the league in offense, at that point it wasn't possible for Billick (a former oc) to run our O worse than Fassel was.

I don't see how a former special teams coach can step in and run Cams system better.

[PuRock]

[quote name='BloodRaven' timestamp='1287421745' post='512413']
In 06 we were ranked near the bottom of the league in offense, at that point it wasn't possible for Billick (a former oc) to run our O worse than Fassel was.

[b]I don't see how a former special teams coach can step in and run Cams system better.[/b]
[/quote]

Agree and you would have to assume Billick had a lot more say in the offensive gameplan than Harbs does now. I'm assuming it was more of a co-op gameplan. They were just getting rid of his input and the actual play calling which Billick could assume easily.

Right now we are running Cam Cameron game plans w/ approval by Harbs (my assumption). It would be much tougher to ditch Cam now then it was back in 2006.

It's a lot harder to change than meets the eye.

[Jamal]

[quote name='Shawn`' timestamp='1287374538' post='511837']
I voted no because we lost by 3 points to a good team.

I say that because some of you voted yes based on losing to a good team by 3 points, as silly as that sounds, it's true. This topic wouldn't be here if we didn't lose.

Fans can never be pleased, it's always "Fire him" and "bench him" after every loss. It's an impatient and childish thing to do. I'm not saying we should not criticize the team, but at least wait until the whole season is over to evaluate someone's performance instead of arrogantly shoving this idea in the middle of the season, as if firing him tomorrow and changing the whole playbook would really be the best thing to do for the team.

/rant
[/quote]
Yeah I definitely agree on not firing him in the middle season.

But if he doesn't drastically improve his playcalling, I see no reason in keeping him.

A lot of people on here were criticizing him even after the win against Pitt. He has consistently been terrible this season. Doesn't know the meaning of spread.
Just look at the team we played. They use there miss-match TE, while we only put him in, when Heap had to go out.

We are 4-2 in spite of Cam.

[doubtful]

[quote name='flaccopoe' timestamp='1287370155' post='511724']
After the dreadful play-calling in our loss against NE, doyou think that Cam should be fired? He' consistently been messing up calls this season. Flacco probably could have scored a game-winning TD today if he hadn't been been commanded to play conservatively by Cam in the 4th quarter (even though BAL had a 10-point lead!!)
[/quote]

[VA_Fan]

There was a guy that posted the perfect analogy about Cam. He wrote that he reminds him of the Henry Winkler charactor in the Waterboy (Coach Klien) when it comes to playing good teams. I thought it was hillarious. But in all seriousness, if he doesn't improve, I don't think Mr.Bisciotti will pull a Jerry Jones but he is a fan of the game and might nudge Oz to do something at the end of the season.

[WinnipegRaven]

Something needs to be done imho. Whether its calling on Flacco to throw WAY too many times thus abandoning the run, or getting too complacent in the 4th Qtr.... Folks saying "relax, we lost to an elite team in OT by a FG", well, that L would and SHOULD be a W, we should be 5-1 and alone atop the AFCN by a full game.

Now Rex and Co. have a better record than us and we still have not won a game in the regular season vs Brady.

[doubtful]

Why fire Cameron. The offense scored 20 points which is usually enough to win most games. If you want to fire someone try Greg Mattison. NEVER NEVER should you only rush three players against an explosive team like NE who have one of the best QB's in the league. That was criminal and it cost the Ravens the win. Of course the play I'm referring to is the touchdown pass to Branch that Brady had all day to throw. Why do the Jets have success against NE...because they always put pressure on Brady. I doubt they ever rush less than four players and it works most of the time. Same thing goes for Manning. The best way to beat these guys is by putting pressure on them constantly, otherwise, they tear you apart. It's that simple.

[mdrsharon]

when we win, he's a genius
when we lose, he needs to be fired.
I think they need to re-evaluate the game plan DURING the game.
When Rice was shut down yesterday, they kept running the SAME play on 1st down, and he was not effective, at that point (especially fourth quarter and certainly during overtime) get some other plays going that will actually work and trick out other team's defenses.
they should keep Cam, but seriously be watching the same game as us!

[XxSizzleXx]

This is FAR FAR FAR too early to be firing ANYONE. We are 4-2 fellas take a chill pill. What I think is Cam should ay a visit to Deion and bring his own baby powder.

[Andrew Glass]

You can't change offensive cordinators midseason unless you have someone with the same system and is better with that system and we certianly don't. It's easier to change coaches. It takes 2-3 years for QBs to really learn a system. We would pretty much be dumping the season.

People don't think of that when jumping the gun though...

[mhead66]

Let's examine the stats:

For the game, the offense had 34 rushes, and 35 pass attempts. Very balanced.

But... During the last 5 drives:

9 rushes, 25 yards. 8/9 rushes were 3 yards or less, three were 0 yards. Not good.

11 passes, 7 complete. 59 total yards. 5.3 yds/attempt. Not good.

The problem I have with the playcalling was that, of the 11 pass attempts, 8 were short pass attempts. Three were incomplete, and the five completions:

9 yards
4 yards
4 yards
3 yards
1 yard

Five drives, five punts, three 3-and-outs, one 4-and-out, 84 yards.

On the road, with the game on the line, you have to take the game [b]from[/b] the opponent.

No, don't fire Cam - but Harbaugh should strenuously clarify these things to Cam.

[noy]

So....where are the current 36 voters who said we should fire Cam? I'd love to hear some explanations, but I won't hold my breath...

I'm probably one of the few, but I don't think Cam is a bad play caller. I think he's actually pretty good, but when he gets into certain situations, he loses that "get after them" mentality and that's what we begin to see influence the offensive play. What situations am I talking about? The recurring instances seem to be in the red zone, on short yardage situation and the management a comfortable lead.

The first and second instances can actually be looped together, because when the offense is in the red zone they obviously have less yardage to work with. I think that's the big difference in his play calling; Cam is an expert at developing mid-deep plays, utilizing Joe's great deep ball. But I think both of them are at a loss with short yardage situations, and when the run game is having difficulty converting it becomes [i]very [/i]evident (how many times do I have to watch Joe try and scramble to pick up short yardage...geez). The Broncos game was a great thing for Cam, because the run game was extremely effective which opened his play book quite a bit.

Late in the game you could see Cam's "play not to lose" style, and that's not how you win football games, or do well in any aspect of life. There is always risk, a risk of an INT, a risk of a fumble, but you have to work to minimize the risk [i]and still aim for gold[/i]. There should be no such thing as "managing a comfortable lead", it should all be about the scoring. By scoring, you're managing the lead....by increasing it. Against a group like the Patriots, this is especially true, but this is also true about any NFL team we face (even a "bad" NFL team). You think the Packers/Colts/Patriots would start running the ball excessively against a high power offensive opponent, and give a 3 and out every possession just so they could kill the clock? All of those teams go for the kill, and that's what our offense needs to start doing. I haven't heard anybody, including the media, slam our performance (aka say we are terrible) against the Patriots because they all know our offense had the ability to do better. This isn't college Cam, this is the NFL; we don't care about running up the score, nor do we get penalized. This isn't about people's feelings getting hurt, even when crybabies like Keith Brookings moan (against the Vikings). It's a ruthless business, start acting like a ruthless businessman. I guarantee Cam has the potential, but he is holding himself back with his fear of losing the game, which ironically increases the chances of losing.

[rlh445]

[quote name='rlh445' timestamp='1287374976' post='511845']
This is stupid and I'm not voting. No, he shouldn't be fired. He's a darn good OC. Even if he was horrid as some believe, we're not going to fire him because then we'd have to replace him. Maybe a better poll would be, 'When we fire Cam, will we fire Rosburg and Harbaugh as well?'. Stop knee-jerking, please.
[/quote]

For the two that negged my post, I'm interested. Do you have a replacement lined up for Cam? Please elaborate so that we may all marvel at your brilliance. I'd love to hear it. Firing your OC in the early goings of your season screams 'WE'RE A BAD TEAM!,' and is just an idiotic thing to suggest. Scott Garceau, who is the nicest guy ever, got sick of the calls calling for Cam and Rosburg, he started saying, 'Well, there's two coordinators gone, who's next? Harbaugh? Biscotti? The cheerleaders?!,'. He did it while laughing, but you could tell that he was fed up with it..as he should be. Cam doesn't need to be fired, but maybe all this attention on him will force him to see that this handcuffing of Joe is not gonna win anything, neither fans nor games.

[berad]

[quote name='rlh445' timestamp='1287454052' post='513277']
For the two that negged my post, I'm interested. Do you have a replacement lined up for Cam? Please elaborate so that we may all marvel at your brilliance. I'd love to hear it. Firing your OC in the early goings of your season screams 'WE'RE A BAD TEAM!,' and is just an idiotic thing to suggest. Scott Garceau, who is the nicest guy ever, got sick of the calls calling for Cam and Rosburg, he started saying, 'Well, there's two coordinators gone, who's next? Harbaugh? Biscotti? The cheerleaders?!,'. He did it while laughing, but you could tell that he was fed up with it..as he should be. Cam doesn't need to be fired, but maybe all this attention on him will force him to see that this handcuffing of Joe is not gonna win anything, neither fans nor games.
[/quote]

Tough to go against the angry masses..

I agree with you, it's easy to blame Cam Cameron but, bottom line, he's done an excellent job making this offense into a competent one. His play calling may not be perfect, at times, but perfection isn't something you find in the modern NFL. Ask the 2007 Patriots.

The loss to the Patriots was a team effort, or lack thereof. The defense faltered against one of the best offenses in the NFL and the offense couldn't come up with first downs when it needed to. Billy Cundiff even kicked it out-of-bounds once. It's too easy and, frankly, unfair to place the blame solely on Cameron.

I just can't wait until a week from now.

[ravensdfan]

[quote name='Malkavian Raven' timestamp='1287375738' post='511863']
[font="Century Gothic"]We played a tremendous game against an elite team in their backyard and we lost in OT to a field goal... I fail to see your reasoning in firing Cam.[/font]
[/quote]

We played an elite OFFENSE. Their defense is sub-par. Proven by our taking advantage early and having a 10 pt lead. Then along came Cam and his "Oh a lead! Let's get predictable" play calling. Bingo. Lead gone by our inability to sustain a drive and a defense that was on the field way too much in the 4th quarter. You think running on a 2nd and 9 in OT isn't too conservative?

Jets game. Rice left, Rice left, Rice left. No yardage. Yet, we kept doing it time and time again while passing was working.

Bengals game. Joe is obviously struggling and Rice is having success yet, we abandon the run and pass the ball.

Cam is a problem.

[WinnipegRaven]

peeps do need to relax.... there is no way a team that is 4-2 is going to fire any of its coaching staff - thats just idiocy. Cam's leash will be shortened, just as was evident after the CIN game.... Flacco threw way too many times and balance was restored the following week.

[ravensdfan]

[quote name='WinnipegRaven' timestamp='1287456143' post='513321']
peeps do need to relax.... there is no way a team that is 4-2 is going to fire any of its coaching staff - thats just idiocy. Cam's leash will be shortened, just as was evident after the CIN game.... Flacco threw way too many times and balance was restored the following week.
[/quote]

As has already been pointed out, we did it in '06 and went 13-3. Balance restored? Hardly. Following the Bengals' game we played the Browns. Following this game, we will play the Bills. Cam throws caution to the wind against the cellar dwellers of the league figuring we will beat them regardless. He does not know how to play call against playoff caliber teams.

[Jamal]

[quote name='ravensdfan' timestamp='1287454778' post='513289']
We played an elite OFFENSE. Their defense is sub-par. Proven by our taking advantage early and having a 10 pt lead. Then along came Cam and his "Oh a lead! Let's get predictable" play calling. Bingo. Lead gone by our inability to sustain a drive and a defense that was on the field way too much in the 4th quarter. You think running on a 2nd and 9 in OT isn't too conservative?

Jets game. Rice left, Rice left, Rice left. No yardage. Yet, we kept doing it time and time again while passing was working.

Bengals game. Joe is obviously struggling and Rice is having success yet, we abandon the run and pass the ball.

Cam is a problem.
[/quote]
You know you have issues when you can't score more than 20 on a defense that gave up 30 to the Bills.....

[DrMoonTooth]

Okay...for all those who won't post their negative thoughts on Cameron, I'm willing to.

First of all, I voted "no". We shouldn't fire him in my opinion. I think Cam is a good-enough coordinator and firing him mid-season would be a bad idea. However, I am tired of seeing the Ravens lose to all the perenially good teams (Colts, Patriots, Steelers, etc...and yes, I know we beat the Steelers a week ago and the Patriots last year when it mattered). We have too much offensive firepower to lose a game like we did yesterday. You can not play conservative football against the Patriots, Tom Brady, and Bill Belichick...even with a ten point lead. Now that we have the weapons, we should have put a stranglehold on the Patriots in the fourth quarter, not let Tom Brady stage his typical comeback win.

Sometimes the best defense is a good offense, and I doubt any one would argue that that would have been a bad strategy in the fourth quarter yesterday. The Patriots scored on back-to-back possesions, so why not go to all means necessary to keep Brady off the field? I know we owned TOP, but not when it mattered most...not when Brady got hot. We have too much offensive talent to rely on our defense to win games as we chose to do on Sunday. When Brady starts to light it up on offense, why put the game on the defense's shoulders? But, that's what we did...we dared Brady to beat us...and ultimately, he did.

What we should have done was keep brady on the bench. How? Well, for starters, convert on 3rd and 4th downs...something we failed to do on Sunday. Cam said himself that "audibling is overrated"...it was stated in an article on this site earlier...how so, Cam? This is absurd. When Flacco walked onto the field with 3rd and inches to go, every one and their grandmother on the Patriots knew we were running a QB sneak, so why not audible? I NEVER see Joe audible...I bet Peyton manning would have something to say about how dumb that is. Cam needs to stop pampering Flacco and let him play football. Give us a chance to WIN the game. Let Flacco audible when the call is obviously not good for the situation.

Look at all the offensive talent this team has (notable players I can think of):

1)Ray Rice
2)Willis McGahee
3)Le'Ron McClain
4)Anquan Boldin
5)Derrick Mason
6)T.J. Houshmanzadeh
7)Donte Stallworth (when healthy)
8)Todd Heap
9)Ed Dickson
10)Dennis Pitta

...are you telling me with all this guys, we can't score more than 20 points on the Patriots pansy secondary? Where are the 4-Wide sets? Where are the 5-Wide sets? Other Shotgun formations? 2-TE sets? 3-TE sets? Split-back formations? Audibles? No-huddle? There should be mismatches all over the place! No amount of game-planning should be able to beat a team that looks like ours...or at least not hold us to 20 points. Instead, we're seeing the Ravens of yester-year: Run with Rice, screen with Rice, dump-off to Rice, etc, etc, etc.

Sunday was supposed to be a statement game...oh, we made a statement all right. A statement that says no matter how many weapons we acquire, we just won't be able to utilize them. There is NO excuse for that! The Patriots beat us in the end by using a cover-2 defense and rushing only 3 guys...why? Because we still had the same 2 WR sets we've always tried to use! Mix it up, Cam. We could be so versatile on offense: Jumbo package one play, RB draw the next, then play action deep to Boldin in a 2 WR, 2 TE, 1 RB set. All I'm saying is open up the playbook! We should be giving defensive coordinators nightmares right now with all the mismatches we could be creating! Look at the Patriots yesterday with THEIR rookie TE Hernandez...he burned us multiple times. Imagine a formation with Heap, Dickson, and Pitta all running routes...how glorious would that be??? It's completely possible, yet we don't see it. If teams started fearing our passing game, wouldn't that open lanes and space for Rice, McGahee, and McClain? We can't run the ball because teams still don't respect us as the balanced, multi-faceted offense that we have the capability of being.

Fellow fans, is my reasoning not justified? I'm so happy that we've come out of this tough road-heavy schedule 4-2, but the Broncos game is the only game we convincingly won. We could just as easily be 1-5. You saw Joe bring us back to victory against the Browns and Steelers...I know he could've done the same on Sunday the way he was playing. Cam Cameron needs to take the training wheels off Flacco and let him lead this team to another Superbowl...for Ray Lewis, for Ed Reed...for the city of Baltimore. We have the defense, and we have the potential on offense...potential that Cameron simply has yet to take advantage of. I highly doubt the offense in its present state could lead us to the big dance.

Should Cam Cameron be fired now? No...at least not yet, because we lost a game against the Patriots on the road after they were coming off a BYE week. Not to mention there's not any one currently out there who could do better. BUT, is there a major offensive issue? Yes.

Edit: I am not placing yesterday's loss soley on Cameron's shoulders...that would be myopic and foolish. I am merely expressing the frustrations that myself and many members of the Ravens fanbase have had with him all season, and in some cases, since he was hired.

[DrMoonTooth]

Phew...you have no idea how much better I feel after that one. That had been bottled up for a while now.

[JohnJohnson]

The Patriots game was a revelation, a marvel of inconsistency. Flacco is good, he's really improved. The problem is the play calling, which frankly goes against the odds at times. Now we know why TJ was expressing concern. How many of us were thinking "where are the receivers?" It felt like Cam was just blowing the game, refusing to spread it out for some reason. Hard to watch.

[heapitup247]

[quote name='ravensdfan' timestamp='1287454778' post='513289']
We played an elite OFFENSE. Their defense is sub-par. Proven by our taking advantage early and having a 10 pt lead. Then along came Cam and his "Oh a lead! Let's get predictable" play calling. Bingo. Lead gone by our inability to sustain a drive and a defense that was on the field way too much in the 4th quarter. You think running on a 2nd and 9 in OT isn't too conservative?

Jets game. Rice left, Rice left, Rice left. No yardage. Yet, we kept doing it time and time again while passing was working.

Bengals game. Joe is obviously struggling and Rice is having success yet, we abandon the run and pass the ball.

Cam is a problem.
[/quote]

Hindsight Bias. Knowing the outcome of the plays and the game is something Cam doesn't have when he calls them.

[DrMoonTooth]

[quote name='heapitup247' timestamp='1287459487' post='513382']
Hindsight Bias. Knowing the outcome of the plays and the game is something Cam doesn't have when he calls them.
[/quote]
It's called adjustments and audibles...Cameron should have made them.

[hawkprey]

I think there's been something to complain about from the offensive play-calling every week so far. Except Pittsburgh, which I don't remember as being poorly called. But to give Cam the game ball because he didn't screw things up?

I'd really like to know what happened to TJ the last 59 minutes of the game. And what about Boldin? Was double-coverage really too much for him? I can see not using Heap as a receiver after that collision, but don't we have other TE's? Or WR's? Or RB's? Why is all our depth on the sidelines?

[flynismo]

[quote name='doubtful' timestamp='1287432407' post='512695']Why fire Cameron.[/quote]

Because he is horrible at times, mediocre at others. Every once in a while he gets it right.

[quote name='doubtful' timestamp='1287432407' post='512695']  The offense scored 20 points which is usually enough to win most games[/quote]


Yesterday it wasn't. And an offense that scores 20ppg is very,very mediocre. Much like the guy running the offense.
And when you consider the talent on this offense, yesterday's performance, especially against such a candy defense, was totally unacceptable.


[quote name='doubtful' timestamp='1287432407' post='512695']If you want to fire someone try Greg Mattison. [/quote]



Way to deflect the argument at hand. Are you talking about the same DC who led us to the 3rd overall defense last year and currently this year's #2 defense? Really dude? If you're going to take the heat off of the real problem, which is Cameron, at least present a sensible deflection.

[heapitup247]

[quote name='DrMoonTooth' timestamp='1287459884' post='513387']
It's called adjustments and audibles...Cameron should have made them.
[/quote]

Maybe he just didn't make the right ones. Maybe he felt he didn't need to make adjustments and it would still work. Again, its hard to judge someone with play calls when you already know the outcome. Its really not fair to him. Regardless, don't rely on his decisions in one game to determine his job status. Judge his whole body of work.

[DrMoonTooth]

[quote name='berad' timestamp='1287454293' post='513279']
I just can't wait until a week from now.
[/quote]
After we blow out the laughingstock of the NFL? Sorry Berad..I'll still be frustrated .

[flynismo]

[quote name='heapitup247' timestamp='1287461231' post='513408']<br />Maybe he just didn't make the right ones.  Maybe he felt he didn't need to make adjustments and it would still work. Again, its hard to judge someone with play calls when you already know the outcome. Its really not fair to him. Regardless, don't rely on his decisions in one game to determine his job status. Judge his whole body of work.<br />[/quote]

None of that exactly is much of a defense for him.

No one here is basing it off of one game; for a lot of us, this is the game that broke the camel's back.

[DrMoonTooth]

[quote name='heapitup247' timestamp='1287461231' post='513408']
Maybe he just didn't make the right ones. Maybe he felt he didn't need to make adjustments and it would still work. Again, its hard to judge someone with play calls when you already know the outcome. Its really not fair to him. Regardless, don't rely on his decisions in one game to determine his job status. Judge his whole body of work.
[/quote]
So when we stalled on what...5 consecutive drives, you think he honestly felt an adjustment wasn't needed? I don't think he made ANY adjustments, which you clearly saw. The Patriots went to a formation similar to the cover-2 and only rushed 3 guys, but yet Cammy Cam dialed up the same 2 WR sets with dumps to Rice that he always has...that is NOT an adjustment. Don't be sympathetic to a guy who is holding this offense back. His whole body of work? What is that? Losing to teams that are above .500? Nothing he has done this year on offense has impressed me, and you can't use the the excuse that he has no weapons to work with. The bottom line is, he simply isn't using them. His body of work isn't that great, either. He was able to run the ball effectively his first two years...that's all I give him credit for.

[heapitup247]

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1287461422' post='513413']
None of that exactly is much of a defense for him.

No one here is basing it off of one game; for a lot of us, this is the game that broke the camel's back.
[/quote]

So none of us were pleased two years ago when we made it to the AFCG with a rookie QB? And no one here was impressed with Flacco and the offense at all? Was anyone impressed when we beat the Pats 34-7 last year in the playoffs? Were we all not satisfied with Ray Rice having 1000+ yards and Flacco throwing for 3600 last year?

While I realize we're not satisfied as a whole without a super bowl, to fire a guy who has changed an offense from 12th in the AFC in points to 9th in the NFL in points two years later is absolutely ridiculous.