Housh (Still) Disappointed With Role

[Passepartout]

He has a lot of potential. And that hopefully with more work. He can become one of the elite, if not THE ELITE!

[beasy2487]

[quote name='Jabara' timestamp='1286609653' post='502282']
We don't know that to be true, being a vet on this team will have you ranked higher as far as the very simple depth chart the Ravens keep. It's not typically a who is better depth chart, the rankings are pretty generic, at least in training camp.
Stallworth had to learn the system while his role would be evaluated.
If Clayton clearly beat out Stallworth, they would have gotten rid of Stallworth and not Clayton, especially since Stallworth was kept on the active roster, after being injured.
[b]You can't say he didn't beat Clayton for the #3 spot.[/b]
The interesting thing will be, what happens when Stallworth comes back?
[/quote]

Um... so how come we didn't trade Clayton when we brought in Stalls, but immediately traded him when we brought in Housh? Because Housh is a BETTER PLAYER. Jesus christ, why is this even a debate?!

[quote name='ravenanchors' timestamp='1286628784' post='502304']
This is not about the media taking advantage of Housh or that the media is causing trouble. So far they are just reporting Housh's own words.
Everyone knows Housh likes to complain to the media.

(Beasy2487)
--[b]There is no evidence that either Stallworth or Housh is a better receiver. Their stats are identical. [/b]
--Housh was not signed as a number 1 receiver. He was signed and he was aware that he would be a number 3 receiver.
--Housh is not productive. Housh is only catching 35 percent of the balls thrown to him.
--Whether Clayton talked or not makes absolutely no difference. He was inconsistent and unreliable. The same as Housh.

If this is not true, why would Seattle let Housh go when they have to pay him a huge salary.

Housh wants to be the number 1 receiver without putting in the effort or proving his skills to the team.

When Housh catches more than 35 percent of the balls thrown to him, then he will have the right to ask for more playing time and more balls thrown his way.
[/quote]

This guy... *cracks knuckles* Let's talk about "evidence":

I'm going to take stats only from 2002-2008 when both Housh and Stallworth were on the field. I'm going to ignore the fact that Housh didn't hit a guy with a car while driving drunk so he was able to play in '09 (I only bring this up to debunk this idea that Stallworth is Snow White) and the fact that '01 gives him a 1 yr advantage in experience because clearly those things don't matter. /sarcasm.

From 2002-2008:

Stallworth:

Games: [b]95[/b]
Receptions: 296
Yds: 4383
Avg: [b]14.8[/b]
TD: 32

Houshmandzadeh:

Games: 93
Receptions: [b]486[/b]
Yds: [b]5554[/b]
Avg: 11.4
TD: [b]37[/b]

So, considering the same timespan, ignoring the fact that TJ missed essentially all of 2003 with injury and that Stallworth played on one of the greatest passing offenses of all time in 2007 (because clearly these factors don't matter either /moresarcasm), TJ completely and unequivocally dominates Stallworth in all major categories except games played and YPC.

So factoring back in the lost season in '03 for TJ and the fact that Stalls is supposed to be a deep threat, TJ absolutely demolishes Stalls and is, without a doubt, a MUCH better receiver.

I'm just mad I had to make this argument to a guy whose sig says stats only tell "50%" of the story. Hypocrite.

Oh and finally, I was clearly talking about the Seahawks paying Housh 18 mil to come in and be a significant, #1-type receiving threat, not the Ravens.

[ravenanchors]

I am not saying stallworth is better than TJ.
I am just looking for someone who says that TJ is better than Stallworth to show some evidence.
They are two different types of receivers.
Housh is shorter pass and Stallworth is the deep guy.
Their stats are different and they should be but they don't indicate who is better because they play different roles.

All I've heard so far is that TJ is better than Stallworth.
I would like to hear someone say TJ is better because, (as an example)
He can catch the ball across the middle in traffic or he can outrun the defensive back better than Stallworth.

In order to take accountability, you have to take action to correct the deficiencies. But instead, TJ is complaining again.

TJ was given the boot twice, not because he can't catch. Its because of the attitude he brings to the locker room.
When you speak to the media and complain, all the other players and coaches take notice and the coach ends us having to make excuses for TJ's comments.

The Ravens don't play 3 wide all the time, so being that 3rd receiver, Housh is not going to play as much as Mason or Boldin. If he can't live with that and continues to complain things could get ugly down the road towards the playoffs. And that is the real potential problem. Will there be cohesiveness between the players.

[organizedchaos007]

Hes going to get his catches. As flacco starts to get comfortable with his surroundings, I have a feeling flacco is gonna be spreading the ball around quite nicely. I even see our other 2 TE's getting involved come the middle of the season. I expect Tj to have the desire for more balls... any good reciever wants that, hes just not afraid to say it. I wont have a problem with what hes saying until he starts blaming flacco or cam for him not getting the ball, or saying hes better than Q or mason (which i dont see him doing). I actually see TJ being our #2 next year (mason is likely to retire), and to me... they are basically the same recievers, TJ may be a bit more physical, I think mason is slightly more craftier in route running.

Either way, Tj will get his catches, but... he needs to stop dropping the ball, which i think he will once hes completely comfortable.

[Bltravens]

[quote name='ravenanchors' timestamp='1286647884' post='502409']
You do not judge a person by what they say, but by what they do.
Housh makes a lot of cover your a## coments but his actions speak louder.

Your posts show your own ignorance.
Housh has been kicked off 2 teams because of his attitude. Just like T.O. 3 teams gave him the boot.

I've reseached the stats and they show no difference between the Housh and Stallworth.

Since you can't bother to post the stats you are referring to, I would have to assume you are delusional or lazy.
[/quote]
You are absolutely nuts if you think Stallworth is comparable to TJ as a receiver in any facet of being a WR. Stallworth has just under 300 career receptions...TJ has just under 600 career receptions. How are you even comparing them.

[ravenanchors]

[quote name='beasy2487' timestamp='1286652609' post='502460']
Um... so how come we didn't trade Clayton when we brought in Stalls, but immediately traded him when we brought in Housh? Because Housh is a BETTER PLAYER. Jesus christ, why is this even a debate?!



This guy... *cracks knuckles* Let's talk about "evidence":

I'm going to take stats only from 2002-2008 when both Housh and Stallworth were on the field. I'm going to ignore the fact that Housh didn't hit a guy with a car while driving drunk so he was able to play in '09 (I only bring this up to debunk this idea that Stallworth is Snow White) and the fact that '01 gives him a 1 yr advantage in experience because clearly those things don't matter. /sarcasm.

From 2002-2008:

Stallworth:

Games: [b]95[/b]
Receptions: 296
Yds: 4383
Avg: [b]14.8[/b]
TD: 32

Houshmandzadeh:

Games: 93
Receptions: [b]486[/b]
Yds: [b]5554[/b]
Avg: 11.4
TD: [b]37[/b]

So, considering the same timespan, ignoring the fact that TJ missed essentially all of 2003 with injury and that Stallworth played on one of the greatest passing offenses of all time in 2007 (because clearly these factors don't matter either /moresarcasm), TJ completely and unequivocally dominates Stallworth in all major categories except games played and YPC.

So factoring back in the lost season in '03 for TJ and the fact that Stalls is supposed to be a deep threat, TJ absolutely demolishes Stalls and is, without a doubt, a MUCH better receiver.

I'm just mad I had to make this argument to a guy whose sig says stats only tell "50%" of the story. Hypocrite.

Oh and finally, I was clearly talking about the Seahawks paying Housh 18 mil to come in and be a significant, #1-type receiving threat, not the Ravens.
[/quote]

All you are doing is looking at whose numbers are bigger.
That is not how to read stats to draw a conclusion.
Stats only tell 50 percent of the story.
Here is the other 50 percent.

Historical stats only tell what happened in the past and cannot predict what will happen in the future.

The stats do not indicate why Housh is only catching 40 percent of his passes.
And these stats do not indicate what percent of passes he dropped.

From a production standpoint. Stallworth is making the same amount of touchdowns per game, with half the receptions and has a better YPC average.

Housh has twice as many catches, but not twice as many yards.

This indicates that Housh was catching shorter passes and Stallworth was playing the deep guy and we all know that the deep receiver is thrown to about half as many times as the short receiver.

So reality is that the stats you have shown, "Only tell 50 percent" of what is really happening.

And from a production standpoint, neither player has the edge.

TD's per game
Housh: .33
Stall: .34


Houshmandzadeh: Career 10 years
Games: 123
Receptions: 591
Yds: 6773
Avg: 11.5
TD: 41

Stallworth: Career 8 years
Games: 95
Receptions: 296
Yds: 4383
Avg: 14.8
TD: 32

[flynismo]

Okay, anyway, back here on planet earth... I love the fact that Housh is a take charge, give-me-the-ball kinda guy. He has not said anything wrong or alarming to the media, but the media being who they are, I hope that in the future he is more cautious around them. There are a lot of gullible people out there who love eating up the drama and BS the media feeds them.

[ravenanchors]

[quote name='Bltravens' timestamp='1286655295' post='502486']
You are absolutely nuts if you think Stallworth is comparable to TJ as a receiver in any facet of being a WR. Stallworth has just under 300 career receptions...TJ has just under 600 career receptions. How are you even comparing them.
[/quote]

The simple explanation is, that Housh was a short receiver and Stallworth was a deep receiver. The deep receiver is thrown to about half as much as the across the middle and short receiver.

But as the stats show both receivers are making the same td's per game.

Its in my previous post.

[flynismo]

[quote name='ravenanchors' timestamp='1286657068' post='502498']<br />The simple explanation is, that Housh was a short receiver and Stallworth was a deep receiver.  The deep receiver is thrown to about half as much as the across the middle and short receiver.<br /><br />But as the stats show both receivers are making the same td's per game.<br /><br />Its in my previous post.<br />[/quote]

You're right, that is a very simple explanation.

[beasy2487]

[quote name='ravenanchors' timestamp='1286657068' post='502498']
The simple explanation is, that Housh was a short receiver and Stallworth was a deep receiver. The deep receiver is thrown to about half as much as the across the middle and short receiver.

But as the stats show both receivers are making the same td's per game.

Its in my previous post.
[/quote]

Um? Your logic is flawed and works both ways. Stallworth played on one of the greatest passing offenses of all time and TJ played with backups 2 of the years Palmer was hurt. Combine that with the season missed in '03 due to injury and his stats are just better. I'm looking at raw stats, you're manipulating them to prove your weak argument. Same number of TDs per game? Are you kidding? I'm just pointing out the bigger numbers? Stats don't predict what happens in the future? Do you HEAR yourself?

smdh.

Look at the stats. Res ipsa loquitor. Ridiculous.

[Jamal]

I have a feeling he'll have a big game against the Broncos. Champ, and Dawkins should be focused in on Boldin. Giving Mason or Housh a shot at a good one.

Or at least I hope.

[ravenanchors]

[quote name='beasy2487' timestamp='1286657399' post='502500']
Um? Your logic is flawed and works both ways. Stallworth played on one of the greatest passing offenses of all time and TJ played with backups 2 of the years Palmer was hurt. Combine that with the season missed in '03 due to injury and his stats are just better. I'm looking at raw stats, you're manipulating them to prove your weak argument. Same number of TDs per game? Are you kidding? I'm just pointing out the bigger numbers? Stats don't predict what happens in the future? Do you HEAR yourself?

smdh.

Look at the stats. Res ipsa loquitor. Ridiculous.
[/quote]

At least you are using evidence as part of your argument.
But
In fact stats are not a predictor of future events.
Stats are evidence of things transpired.
(Look it up)
Pointing out that both receivers have 1 touchdown per every 3 games is not twisting the facts. That is what the evidence shows. It does not predict that it will continue that way. But Housh has 1 Td in four games. That is a pretty close occurence.

I can no longer play today. I have to take my wife to dinner.

[JohnJohnson]

[quote name='ravenanchors' timestamp='1286649392' post='502421']
If you don't want to prove your rant. Fine we'll just let it go. I have posted the stats here before. I am not going to do it again.

If you want to disagree, fine, but the least you can do is show the stats that prove your point.
[/quote]

I didn't think I needed to, it's beyond obvious. Someone else did it for me, but TJ has significantly more receptions, yards, TDs, and has shown more consistency.

[JohnJohnson]

[quote name='ravenanchors' timestamp='1286649741' post='502425']
Your first statement was that he was 6th in receptions.
Suddenly you change your mind when I point out there are only 6 people catching the ball. Now you want to come up with a totally different argument.

The argument isn't that TJ has the fewest receptions. That's not a problem.
He has a low percentage of catches. Thats the problem. All the receivers have a tough time catching the ball. That's no excuse, in fact it is equal across the board, all the receivers face the same challenges catching the ball. Some receivers overcome those challenges.
[/quote]

I didn't change my mind, what are you talking about? I added to my argument, but the fact that TJ is 6th in receptions is still relevant. You didn't understand my argument, so I'll explain, again.

TJ has had about 10 balls thrown his way. You're saying he catches 40% of his balls, and I'm saying that's an extremely naive way to look at it. He's had a career of good hands, and you want to say that because he has caught whatever percentage of 10 balls thrown his way, he doesn't? Yes, sample size matters, and that's why I pointed out that he's sixth (or last, however you want to look at it) in receptions. You have made several fallacious arguments already.

[beasy2487]

[quote name='ravenanchors' timestamp='1286658918' post='502504']
At least you are using evidence as part of your argument.
But
In fact stats are not a predictor of future events.
[b]Stats are evidence of things transpired.
(Look it up)[/b]
Pointing out that both receivers have 1 touchdown per every 3 games is not twisting the facts. That is what the evidence shows. It does not predict that it will continue that way. But Housh has 1 Td in four games. That is a pretty close occurence.

I can no longer play today. I have to take my wife to dinner.
[/quote]

Failure to note sarcasm... again. The statement that "stats show what has transpired not what is yet to occur" is a truism. Stats, by definition, are a record of past events. My point is that stating the definition of a statistic is not an argument.

There are so many other factors that affect TD totals, I know you know this and are simply clinging to your argument but come on, really? Why aren't touchdowns/game tracked as a major stat category? For exactly the reason I just stated, there are too many other variables that have an effect. What is tracked? Touchdown Totals. In the same timespan, TJ had 5 more TDs and that was including the fact that he missed an ENTIRE SEASON due to injury. 5 more TDs separating receivers in the same timespan is HUGE, and that is undeniable:

But let's play your game:

TDs per game 2002-2008:

Housh: .397

Stalls: .336

A difference of .061 touchdowns per game over a 7 year period which equates to 5 more touchdowns and 30 more points. Those numbers are significant whether you choose to accept it or not. Finally, if Stalls is this amazing deep threat he should have MORE touchdowns in more games, not less than a possession receiver. Especially when he spent a year playing with Brady. Not taking anything away from Stalls, but TJ is a better, more accomplished receiver no matter how you slice it. Period.

[Bltravens]

[quote name='ravenanchors' timestamp='1286657068' post='502498']
The simple explanation is, that Housh was a short receiver and Stallworth was a deep receiver. The deep receiver is thrown to about half as much as the across the middle and short receiver.

But as the stats show both receivers are making the same td's per game.

Its in my previous post.
[/quote]
That means nothing other than Stallworth is completely one dimensional as a WR. TDs per game is nice and all and you need to score TDs, but is McGahee a better back than Rice because McGahee had 15 TDs last year? Your skewing 2 statistics to say Stallworth is as good as TJ.

[Ravenmore74]

He is a solid player and he is going to get is fair share of looks because Q is going to be covered many times and that opens him up to weaker defender and that is what he is here for an option...

[noy]

Someone spoke about Stallworth being on an elite offense in comparison to Housh being the only threat on his offense; somehow alluding to the point that Housh is better than Stallworth for this reason, because TJs stats are better...I guess. What isn't mentioned is that an "elite offense" is one that has many threats. What does that mean? Stallworth wont get as many throws his way because of the circumstances that cannot be explained by stats (pressured QB, deep receiver being open instead, etc). The QB is going to look for the open man in an elite offense, not just one guy. In TJs case, he was really the only threat, meaning the QB is going to look his way a lot more because he has a proven ability to get open.

All of this means that stats really aren't going to be an accurate portrayal of skill between the two receivers; the situations they were in were COMPLETELY different. What we have to look at is individual skill, in other words looking at how each player plays his position.

So far Stallworth is looking a lot better than TJ in terms of his mentality of a third string receiver. TJ made some really good plays, but with how little we have seen of Stallworth in the system, saying TJ is better is an assumption, not fact.

[birdbrain57]

What a tired back and forth. Housh is a fine receiver, no doubt. But the thread is taking a wrong turn when comparing him with Stallworth or anyone else. It's a team game and the object is to win...not compile stats to be dissected to determine worth. He hasn't been in Baltimore very long and we are already reading reports about him being disgruntled. Sure, the media may be blowing his comments up, but if he's half the consummate pro I keep hearing and reading about, then he should be wise enough to shut his mouth and not give the media any ammo, and accept his role.

[ravenanchors]

Exactly, my contention.
You cannot use stats to show that one receiver is better than the other.

The fact that one receiver has more catches that the other only shows that the quarterback threw more balls to one than to the other. It has nothing to do with who is a better receiver.

Every receiver has to go onto the field and play his best every year. The previous years stats make no difference to the game being played today because

Stats are not a predictor of future events.
Stats are evidence of things transpired.

So stats cannot tell us how good either receiver is today.

[Clutch Ravens]

If he wants more targets, he should have caught more of the targets he'd been given already.

That aside, I'd be more worried if he weren't complaining about seeing very little of the ball. Housh is a competitive guy, which should continue to push him to up his game.

[Marc2k6]

Fact there is a loon posting on this topic, it is your job to figure out who!

[flaccopoe]

Don't stress, Housh! You did good against Pittsburgh! Just work on your pass reception.

[AJ_RAVEN52]

Ok so i have seen this poster online one time and now i cant find it anywhere. Its old school. Ray lewis and Peter Boulware are standing back to back and they are holding there helmits. They are wearing the old ravens jersey. It is an awesome poster and i am dying to put it in my man cave. If you know where i can find it please help me out. They are no doubt they are 2 of the best players we ever had. HELP ME!!!!!

[beasy2487]

[quote name='Marc2k6' timestamp='1286677091' post='502642']
Fact there is a loon posting on this topic, it is your job to figure out who!
[/quote]

Agreed, man, agreed.

To say that you can't compare receivers based on stats... that's the only thing you can compare them on.

To say that having the "mentality" that he's not going to see a lot of balls because he is a 3rd receiver makes Stallworth better in this situation... or Clayton, or ANYONE for that matter is ridiculous. Stalls is cool being 3rd for same reason Vick was cool being behind Kolb... because they were on the shortest of all possible leashes and felt fortunate just to have a chance to play again.

TJ is a highly skilled receiver, he knows this. Highly skilled receivers want the ball... What did he drop like.. 2 passes? In heavy coverage against a great secondary? Really? This argument that he is dropping balls left and right is ridiculous. More like if Flacco doesn't throw 4 picks we win and nobody is pointing to TJ's drops.

Sigh... the things people will say to hold on to their arguments.

Here's what I think:

Many ravens fans remember disliking Housh as a Bengal and are holding a grudge. This grudge is such that every mistake the guy makes is put under a microscope. Much like the reverse, where Mason drops a pass in the end zone and it's cool, we blame Clayton for that game.

Don't be mad at Housh for being who he is. This is the guy we brought in, and he's not going to change just because he's on a new team. Everybody will get their catches and nobody will care in the end. Just for the love of god don't say things like you can't compare receivers based on stats... sure you can. They may not tell the whole story but they tell FAR MORE THAN 50%. /rantover

[JohnJohnson]

I think it comes from him truly believing that we're unstoppable if we go three wide and call the right plays. We have been passing a good amount, Housh wasn't on the field that much after the Bengals game. He wants to win, and he wants us to push during the season to see what our receivers can do together. We also have to give our running backs their touches, and I'm sure no receiver wants to be on the sideline for any play. And he knows Stallworth is coming back, so he wants to prove himself before the bye. Just put yourself in his position, he wants to be involved with this team. Is that so bad?

[flynismo]

Die thread!!

[purple.n.black]

Give him and boldin and mase each at least 3 receptions, including 3 touchdowns each. Actually 4 for mase and 2 for boldin. Everyone will be happy then

[nextgen_RavensFan]

I like the way TJ wants the ball. We have a crew of competitors and they all want to be the go to guy. I would not want it any other way.

[Bltravens]

TJ stated after the game yesterday he realized his comments were dumb but they came out the wrong way. Talking to National Football Post's Aaron Wilson he said all he wants to do is just contribute to the team and help with the wins. Which is just what I thought initially of his comments anyway...wouldn't you want to actually contribute to your team winning games too?


http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/TJ-Houshmandzadeh-I-think-it-came-out-the-wrong-way.html