Nnamdi Asomugha

[BloodRaven]

[quote name='RavensAllTheWay' timestamp='1283129927' post='460186']
Now you guys are just repeating yourselves and each other, not bringing up anything I haven't already found a suitable argument against.
[/quote]

Does [b]anyone[/b] agree with this guy?

[RavensAllTheWay]

[quote name='BloodRaven' timestamp='1283134930' post='460223']
Does [b]anyone[/b] agree with this guy?
[/quote]
In this particular topic, no I don't think anyone does.

[DrMoonTooth]

The fact that only one person has even made an argument for Revis is pretty funny. Unless there is something about Revis that hasn't been pointed out already, Nnamdi clearly has the edge over Revis...at least for now. Revis may very well become the best CB in the league, but that isn't the case yet.

[berad]

[quote name='RavensAllTheWay' timestamp='1283129927' post='460186']
Now you guys are just repeating yourselves and each other, not bringing up anything I haven't already found a suitable argument against.
[/quote]

What's wrong with my point? Argue against it..

[Reddawn36]

[quote name='RavensAllTheWay' timestamp='1283129927' post='460186']
Now you guys are just repeating yourselves and each other, not bringing up anything I haven't already found a suitable argument against.
[/quote]
lol, just responding to your latest response in the debate

[quote name='BloodRaven' timestamp='1283134930' post='460223']
Does [b]anyone[/b] agree with this guy?
[/quote]

how about [b]THAT [/b]for stats

[Rice-Is-Nice]

Should have known jumping into a thread on Aso would just end up being a Revis vs. Aso debate. I refuse to get involved!... ok just one thing...

To all those who say Revis is a product of Rex Ryan's system, you either didn't watch the Jets play or you don't understand football. This is how the defensive scheme worked in regards to Revis... Revis would lock onto the other team's best WR, [i]regardless[/i] of where he was on the field. The rest of the receivers were mostly double covered, forcing QBs to throw it up to their most reliable target who was also the only target facing single coverage... almost any sane QB would make this decision when faced with constant pressure from the Jets front 7(which lacks any real pass rushing threats outside Calvin Pace). That is why Revis was thrown at so many times, and his stats when thrown at, covering some of the best receivers in football all year, were all-time great. The receivers Revis faced last year would get double and sometime triple covered against basically every team they faced, yet Revis single covered them in a defensive scheme that dared opposing QBs to throw at him. If you can't recognize the level of play Revis was at last year then I don't know what to tell you. I don't ever expect Revis to have as good of a year as he had last year, it is almost impossible, but Revis is 25 and Nnamdi is 29. I don't see how people can really prefer Nnamdi to Revis at this point in their careers.

On topic, Bayless definitely is worthless, as is ESPN in general when it comes to really analyzing sports. Any real local fan will know their teams 100 times better than some hack at ESPN.

[Reddawn36]

[quote name='Rice-Is-Nice' timestamp='1283184683' post='460418']


Should have known jumping into a thread on Aso would just end up being a Revis vs. Aso debate. I refuse to get involved!... ok just one thing...

To all those who say Revis is a product of Rex Ryan's system, you either didn't watch the Jets play or you don't understand football. This is how the defensive scheme worked in regards to Revis... Revis would lock onto the other team's best WR, [i]regardless[/i] of where he was on the field. The rest of the receivers were mostly double covered, forcing QBs to throw it up to their most reliable target who was also the only target facing single coverage... almost any sane QB would make this decision when faced with constant pressure from the Jets front 7(which lacks any real pass rushing threats outside Calvin Pace). That is why Revis was thrown at so many times, and his stats when thrown at, covering some of the best receivers in football all year, were all-time great. The receivers Revis faced last year would get double and sometime triple covered against basically every team they faced, yet Revis single covered them in a defensive scheme that dared opposing QBs to throw at him. If you can't recognize the level of play Revis was at last year then I don't know what to tell you. I don't ever expect Revis to have as good of a year as he had last year, it is almost impossible, but Revis is 25 and Nnamdi is 29. I don't see how people can really prefer Nnamdi to Revis at this point in their careers.

On topic, Bayless definitely is worthless, as is ESPN in general when it comes to really analyzing sports. Any real local fan will know their teams 100 times better than some hack at ESPN.
[/quote]

nobody here is doubting the skill of Revis... just that he is over-hyped(and the jets are paying for it now).... I mean like you said, He single covers receivers that are normally triple covered... you just forgot to mention 1 fact.... so does Nnamdi. Yes Nnamdi is older... but he's been doing this for much longer.... on an overall worse team..... and like he even said in the video... for the last few years, its been nnamdi vs champ, nnamdi vs champ, nnamdi vs champ, nnamdi vs revis, nnamdi vs revis.

I guarantee you if they were switched, we'd be having a different conversation... about it being aso island.. and revis would be the underrated one...

To Revis' youth.... younger players are usually more athletic then older ones (although nnamdi is only 29) nnamdi still had the better year

so going w/ who's better im going w/ aso

however if I was starting a team today... (and didn't care about inflated egos) i'd probably go w/ revis just for the fact that he's very talented and younger...

[Shammy]

why not have both if u had the ability too

[DrMoonTooth]

[quote name='Shammy' timestamp='1283193940' post='460489']
why not have both if u had the ability too
[/quote]
Because it's not the NBA. You can't have LeBron James AND Dwayne Wade in THIS league .

[Rice-Is-Nice]

[quote name='Reddawn36' timestamp='1283189772' post='460467']
nobody here is doubting the skill of Revis... just that he is over-hyped(and the jets are paying for it now).... I mean like you said, He single covers receivers that are normally triple covered... you just forgot to mention 1 fact.... so does Nnamdi.
[/quote]

Uhhh, no he doesn't. They started to use him in that role a little bit at the end of the year, and they are apparently planning to use him more than way this year, but historically Nnamdi has not been asked to shadow a specific receiver.

He is given one side of the field to handle, and when a defense as terrible as the Raiders it's easy to just game plan around Aso. Any offensive coordinator who isn't a moron will just run the ball, or throw it away from Aso when playing the Raiders... that's one of the reasons he had no targets last year.

Aso is definitely an amazing cover corner, and maybe he could have put up similar numbers to Revis if they switched spots last year, but I highly doubt it. To say Aso had a better year than Revis last year is just demonstrably false IMO. Aso has had a better career, no question about it. 2009 was for Revis... I'm still shocked he didn't win DPOY. If he didn't win last year I highly doubt he ever will.

[berad]

Just because Rex Ryan said Revis deserved DPOY doesn't mean he really did. Pretty tough to argue with the season Charles Woodson put up..

[Rice-Is-Nice]

[quote name='berad' timestamp='1283198651' post='460556']
Just because Rex Ryan said Revis deserved DPOY doesn't mean he really did. Pretty tough to argue with the season Charles Woodson put up..
[/quote]

I can't really begrudge Woodson the award, and actually I misspoke, I wasn't shocked to see him win it. With his turnovers and TDs, plus the fact he's been around for awhile and this was his last chance at the award, I actually expected him to win. I just personally believe Revis has the better seaosn. I wouldn't have expected sports writers to do any differently than they did last year.

Woodson definitely had a huge impact all over the field last year. He isn't nearly the cover corner Aso or Revis is, but he is a play-maker. I would personally prefer Aso or Revis on my defense because they are more consistent and technically sound, but I also realize how important big hits, turnovers, and versatility are on a defense.

The fact that Rex Ryan thought Revis should win DPOY has absolutely no bearing on how I view Revis. Hell, Ryan talked up Gholston last preseason like he was going to dominate the league. I recognize his bluster for what it is... motivation.

[RavensAllTheWay]

Obviously were gonna have to agree to disagree. Not one of you that's argued against me so far has convinced me that Aso is better, and on the flip side I haven't convinced anyone of you guys that Revis is better. I believe that getting interceptions and making more plays and being a bigger impact player has put Revis ahead, regardless of the defense he is in or the defense Aso is in. Teams wouldn't be running the ball down the Raiders throats so much if Aso wasn't in there, so I don't think he makes the defense better. But Revis makes his own defense better by getting the interceptions mainly on his own and shutting #1 WRs down which makes it easier to scheme against he running game and the other WRs on the field. It's also highly, highly unlikely to complete a deep pass downfield against the Jets when they apply the amount of pressure that Rex likes to apply, which separates the Jets secondary from our secondary when Rex was with us. Revis is more of a ballhawk, regardless of how many teams throw in his direction compared to Aso's direction. Revis is younger and has more left in the tank.

I just stated my reasons for believing that Revis is the better of the two. The only way for me to change my opinion is to see Aso "outplay" Revis. It's up to those two, not us, to change our opinions on which one is really better.

[berad]

[quote name='RavensAllTheWay' timestamp='1283213946' post='460692']
Obviously were gonna have to agree to disagree. Not one of you that's argued against me so far has convinced me that Aso is better, and on the flip side I haven't convinced anyone of you guys that Revis is better. I believe that getting interceptions and making more plays and being a bigger impact player has put Revis ahead, regardless of the defense he is in or the defense Aso is in. [b]Teams wouldn't be running the ball down the Raiders throats so much if Aso wasn't in there, so I don't think he makes the defense better.[/b] But Revis makes his own defense better by getting the interceptions mainly on his own and shutting #1 WRs down which makes it easier to scheme against he running game and the other WRs on the field. It's also highly, highly unlikely to complete a deep pass downfield against the Jets when they apply the amount of pressure that Rex likes to apply, which separates the Jets secondary from our secondary when Rex was with us. Revis is more of a ballhawk, regardless of how many teams throw in his direction compared to Aso's direction. Revis is younger and has more left in the tank.

I just stated my reasons for believing that Revis is the better of the two. The only way for me to change my opinion is to see Aso "outplay" Revis. It's up to those two, not us, to change our opinions on which one is really better.
[/quote]

All that is fine, and understandable, opinions are hard to change on both sides. We won't argue that, the Revis/Asomugha issue is essentially dead - the battle-lines have been drawn and all that can be said has been said.

But to say Asomugha doesn't make the Raiders defense better?

[img]http://www.grindhardtv.com/news-images/cmon-son.jpg[/img]

With that facial expression!

You don't really mean that..

[i]*And I apologize for the semi-large picture, but it had to be done. [/i]

[RavensAllTheWay]

[quote name='berad' timestamp='1283219204' post='460716']
All that is fine, and understandable, opinions are hard to change on both sides. We won't argue that, the Revis/Asomugha issue is essentially dead - the battle-lines have been drawn and all that can be said has been said.

But to say Asomugha doesn't make the Raiders defense better?

[img]http://www.grindhardtv.com/news-images/cmon-son.jpg[/img]

With that facial expression!

You don't really mean that..

[i]*And I apologize for the semi-large picture, but it had to be done. [/i]
[/quote]
That guys facial expression is hilarious

[Reddawn36]

[quote name='RavensAllTheWay' timestamp='1283213946' post='460692']
Obviously were gonna have to agree to disagree. Not one of you that's argued against me so far has convinced me that Aso is better, and on the flip side I haven't convinced anyone of you guys that Revis is better. I believe that getting interceptions and making more plays and being a bigger impact player has put Revis ahead, regardless of the defense he is in or the defense Aso is in. Teams wouldn't be running the ball down the Raiders throats so much if Aso wasn't in there, so I don't think he makes the defense better. But Revis makes his own defense better by getting the interceptions mainly on his own and shutting #1 WRs down which makes it easier to scheme against he running game and the other WRs on the field. It's also highly, highly unlikely to complete a deep pass downfield against the Jets when they apply the amount of pressure that Rex likes to apply, which separates the Jets secondary from our secondary when Rex was with us. Revis is more of a ballhawk, regardless of how many teams throw in his direction compared to Aso's direction. Revis is younger and has more left in the tank.

I just stated my reasons for believing that Revis is the better of the two. The only way for me to change my opinion is to see Aso "outplay" Revis. It's up to those two, not us, to change our opinions on which one is really better.
[/quote]

Skip Bayless? Is that you?

[RavensAllTheWay]

[quote name='Reddawn36' timestamp='1283238615' post='460792']
Skip Bayless? Is that you?
[/quote]
Really now? I said all I needed to say and all I was going to say and called it an argument, but you come out with that?

[DrMoonTooth]

[quote name='RavensAllTheWay' timestamp='1283213946' post='460692']
Obviously were gonna have to agree to disagree. [b] Not one of you that's argued against me so far has convinced me that Aso is better, and on the flip side I haven't convinced anyone of you guys that Revis is better.[/b] I believe that getting interceptions and making more plays and being a bigger impact player has put Revis ahead, regardless of the defense he is in or the defense Aso is in. Teams wouldn't be running the ball down the Raiders throats so much if Aso wasn't in there, [b]so I don't think he makes the defense better.[/b] [b]But Revis makes his own defense better by getting the interceptions mainly on his own[/b] and shutting #1 WRs down which makes it easier to scheme against he running game and the other WRs on the field. It's also highly, highly unlikely to complete a deep pass downfield against the Jets when they apply the amount of pressure that Rex likes to apply, which separates the Jets secondary from our secondary when Rex was with us. Revis is more of a ballhawk, regardless of how many teams throw in his direction compared to Aso's direction. Revis is younger and has more left in the tank.

I just stated my reasons for believing that Revis is the better of the two. [b] The only way for me to change my opinion is to see Aso "outplay" Revis.[/b] It's up to those two, not us, to change our opinions on which one is really better.
[/quote]
I think that's because we're all stubborn .

Really? Nnamdi deosn't make his defense better? C'mon, man! Plus. Revis is helped by the immense pass rush that the Jets D oftten produces. It's a lot easier to intercept a pass when you're pressuring a QB.

...and finally, I don't know how we're supposed to see one outplay the other. Unless they cover the same people and get thrown at the same amount of times on the same defense with the same assignments, It's really hard to say who's better.

[RavensAllTheWay]

[quote name='DrMoonTooth' timestamp='1283298927' post='461213']
I think that's because we're all stubborn .

Really? Nnamdi deosn't make his defense better? C'mon, man! Plus. Revis is helped by the immense pass rush that the Jets D oftten produces. It's a lot easier to intercept a pass when you're pressuring a QB.

...and finally, [b]I don't know how we're supposed to see one outplay the other. Unless they cover the same people and get thrown at the same amount of times on the same defense with the same assignments,[/b] It's really hard to say who's better.
[/quote]
Well for example, what about those stats I mentioned above about how Revis has a higher pick percentage and defended pass percentage when passes come his way? What if Nnamdi surpasses Revis in both those categories this season? What if the addition of Kamerion Wembley, the installation of the 3-4 and Seymour in his second year on the team improve the Raiders run defense and pass rush drastically? Then, teams would be forced to throw to Nnamdi a lot more than 27 times this year. And if teams stop throwing to Revis as much as they did last year, the number of passes that he would have to defend against and the number of passes Nnamdi would have to defend against would be much closer.

So in other words, what if the two players become much closer to the same boat in terms of passes to defend, pass rush and run defense than they were in 2009? Then they're stats would predictably be much closer together, but instead, what if Nnamdi clearly surpasses Revis in interception percentage and defended passes percentage? That is about as close an example as I can think of in terms of one outplaying the other.

You're right, it's very hard for one to outplay the other, which is why I used quotes around the word "outplay" in my first post. But this might be a scenario that changes my viewpoint on which is better. It's a lot more convincing than us talking about it.

[DrMoonTooth]

[quote name='RavensAllTheWay' timestamp='1283309086' post='461440']
Well for example, what about those stats I mentioned above about how Revis has a higher pick percentage and defended pass percentage when passes come his way? What if Nnamdi surpasses Revis in both those categories this season? What if the addition of Kamerion Wembley, the installation of the 3-4 and Seymour in his second year on the team improve the Raiders run defense and pass rush drastically? Then, teams would be forced to throw to Nnamdi a lot more than 27 times this year. And if teams stop throwing to Revis as much as they did last year, the number of passes that he would have to defend against and the number of passes Nnamdi would have to defend against would be much closer.

So in other words, what if the two players become much closer to the same boat in terms of passes to defend, pass rush and run defense than they were in 2009? Then they're stats would predictably be much closer together, but instead, what if Nnamdi clearly surpasses Revis in interception percentage and defended passes percentage? That is about as close an example as I can think of in terms of one outplaying the other.

You're right, it's very hard for one to outplay the other, which is why I used quotes around the word "outplay" in my first post. But this might be a scenario that changes my viewpoint on which is better. It's a lot more convincing than us talking about it.
[/quote]
It's possible, but much more likely that the Jets stay top 5 status and the Raiders stay significantly (5+ spots) below that mark. Statistics can be deceiving, so when they're that close, I don't reference them. I believe Berad pointed that out and had another set of close %'s in favor of Nnamdi. I just think the stats are too close to determine a "winner". It's all speculation, but I'll be interested in watching both this year.

[AwakenTheDemon]

So because teams can run against Oakland nullifies everything that Aso brings to the passing game? Fact of the matter is that Asomugha makes that defense better because of what he brings to the passing game. Without him there, can you imagine how much worse Oakland's defense would be? Opposing quarterbacks have a very limited selection of passes going up against Oakland, so they resort to running the ball. It isn't Nnamdi's fault that Oakland is porous against the run. Sure, Aso's a stud against the pass, but he isn't a slouch in rush defense either. He has no problem coming up and trying to wrap up the run. Hell, he was second in the league for tackles for a loss by a cornerback last year.

Saying that Asomugha doesn't make the Raiders defense better is ignorant. He doesn't make them a top ten defense, but he certainly, without a shadow of a doubt, makes that defense ten times better than what it would be without him. Nnamdi is more valuable to Oakland's defense than Revis is to New York's defense.

[RavensAllTheWay]

[quote name='AwakenTheDemon' timestamp='1283330887' post='461578']
So because teams can run against Oakland nullifies everything that Aso brings to the passing game? Fact of the matter is that Asomugha makes that defense better because of what he brings to the passing game. Without him there, can you imagine how much worse Oakland's defense would be? Opposing quarterbacks have a very limited selection of passes going up against Oakland, so they resort to running the ball. It isn't Nnamdi's fault that Oakland is porous against the run. Sure, Aso's a stud against the pass, but he isn't a slouch in rush defense either. [b]He has no problem coming up and trying to wrap up the run. Hell, he was second in the league for tackles for a loss by a cornerback last year.[/b]

Saying that Asomugha doesn't make the Raiders defense better is ignorant. He doesn't make them a top ten defense, but he certainly, without a shadow of a doubt, makes that defense ten times better than what it would be without him. Nnamdi is more valuable to Oakland's defense than Revis is to New York's defense.
[/quote]
Oh no, I'm not saying Aso can't stop the run because he can. In fact, I'd give him the edge over Revis in run stopping....just not pass stopping.

And also, I don't think he's as big an X factor on that Raiders defense as Revis is on that Jets D.

Plus you said it yourself. Revis has more passes coming his way. So it's a lot harder for him to hold dominant WRs to sub par numbers than it is for Aso. 111/16 is almost 7, so's he's got about 7 passes coming his way per game on average. He should be getting beat and giving up a lot more completions than Aso, but he's not.....their numbers are very similar. Giving up 2 completions per game with 7 passes to defend is far more impressive than giving up 2 completions with let's say, 3 or 4 passes coming your way. So why is Aso such a better CB?